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Netherlands21351 Posts
On July 07 2016 01:22 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2016 17:20 Velr wrote:
I still buy my games and if i pay full price and if there is day1 DLC that delivers actual content, that obviously belongs into the game, i feel ripped off.
All else, no, i actually really don't care. If you do a WHF game and are even thinking to exclude Chaos, you probably shouldn't have done a WHF game form the get go. I don't care how hard someone works, i work myself. Sometimes hard, sometimes not so hard, as probably most of us do.
Imho they should have gone with:
Basegame: Empire/Chaos/Dwarfs/Orks
and then add:
VC/Undead --> Bretonia/Human Minors --> Skaven/Beastmen --> Lizardmen/Chaosgods --> Elves (all 3) --> Ogres.
I'm not the biggest WHF "nerd" but like this you could start with the most iconic factions and then flesh out/enlarge the world.
It also wouldn't be as "bad" if the game would actually feel polished, but it isn't. In the campaign agent spam and absolutely unbalanecd auto-resolve is killing the experience and the multiplayer has very obvious flaws (Lord-Sniping) and on top of it is an unbalanced mess that even the tiniest bit of actual playtesting could have shown.
Instead of polish we got a day 1 Chaos-DLC and Bretonia that even as MP only faction screams "unfinnished" at you.
It feels like they planned for much more at release and now it seems very unfinished. C. The game is a trilogy if you've actually followed the development of the game, and the Chaos faction was never meant to actually be in the first game; they were actually supposed to be pushed into the 2nd or 3rd expansion however CA wanted to include them in the first. In order to do so they had to add the playable version as a paid DLC. What, you'd rather not have the Chaos faction right now and only four? Ok.
Are you trying to tell me that Chaos needed to be pushed to an expansion when the entire faction was going to be in the base game anyway (The chaos invasions require models, stats, agents, the horde mechanic) at that point all they needed to really add were some quests and a victory condition.
The only way I can accept the 'Chaos was not planned' excuse is if the chaos invasions were not supposed to be in the base game.
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On July 07 2016 00:15 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
I really don't like these kinds of answers. So you arent allowed to be dissatisfied with a non-functional feature that should make the game way more enjoyable? Having to fight every shitty fight isn't really what the game is about and takes away a lot of the fun. I don't see what is so hard to see there. And yes it obviously is possible to keep agents with my armies and I would think this works great if it actually did. But still my generals die like flies to an onslaught of enemy assassins.
Why does this story change anything? "they didnt have a large enough budget". CA was never to blame here. It was obviously SEGA from the beginning, since they are the publisher and handle all of the financial stuff. So if they set the budget small and the DLC schedule to include a Chaos-DLC CA can't really do shit about it. SEGA is no smallscale publisher. They have the money to pay development until finaltouch. They just chose to do so, since they gauged it to be more profitable this way. This is just how capitalism works, and I understand how people can feel cheated.
This was an obvious moneygrab in kind of forcing people to preorder or pay even more.
No but the complaints about agents are clearly a l2p issue that can even be fixed by mods (before you try to pull that argument on me: no, mods fixing issues are no real excuse but in my opinion there is no major issue with agents, you just have to adapt (by using your own agents, embedding agents with skills that protect your lords etc.). I was a total war noob coming into this game and now I play on very hard / legendary occasionally, if I can deal with agents I am pretty sure most people can do as well and even better than I do. Also they got a bit adjusted in the last patch.
Lord sniping in MP is definitely an issue as I agreed and should be fixed, especially for vampires.
Complaining about autoresolve being abuse able is like complaining that you can change the battle difficulty or that easy is way too easy. It is a feature built in to cut a bit of time, if you abuse it is your fault for doing so. I am always all about freedom for the player and fuck those who can’t handle it and ruin their own fun. I have to stop here because otherwise this part will derail into a major rant about people somehow apparently needing guidance for the most basic shit and therefore making games restrictive where they shouldn’t be…
Complaining about the ending being a simple textscreen might be a valid complaint and indicator for them running out of time/money at the end for example and as I said, if the story about the chaos-dlc isn’t true I am against this DLC for sure but it seems plausible to me.
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On July 07 2016 01:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 01:22 superstartran wrote:On July 06 2016 17:20 Velr wrote:
I still buy my games and if i pay full price and if there is day1 DLC that delivers actual content, that obviously belongs into the game, i feel ripped off.
All else, no, i actually really don't care. If you do a WHF game and are even thinking to exclude Chaos, you probably shouldn't have done a WHF game form the get go. I don't care how hard someone works, i work myself. Sometimes hard, sometimes not so hard, as probably most of us do.
Imho they should have gone with:
Basegame: Empire/Chaos/Dwarfs/Orks
and then add:
VC/Undead --> Bretonia/Human Minors --> Skaven/Beastmen --> Lizardmen/Chaosgods --> Elves (all 3) --> Ogres.
I'm not the biggest WHF "nerd" but like this you could start with the most iconic factions and then flesh out/enlarge the world.
It also wouldn't be as "bad" if the game would actually feel polished, but it isn't. In the campaign agent spam and absolutely unbalanecd auto-resolve is killing the experience and the multiplayer has very obvious flaws (Lord-Sniping) and on top of it is an unbalanced mess that even the tiniest bit of actual playtesting could have shown.
Instead of polish we got a day 1 Chaos-DLC and Bretonia that even as MP only faction screams "unfinnished" at you.
It feels like they planned for much more at release and now it seems very unfinished. C. The game is a trilogy if you've actually followed the development of the game, and the Chaos faction was never meant to actually be in the first game; they were actually supposed to be pushed into the 2nd or 3rd expansion however CA wanted to include them in the first. In order to do so they had to add the playable version as a paid DLC. What, you'd rather not have the Chaos faction right now and only four? Ok. Are you trying to tell me that Chaos needed to be pushed to an expansion when the entire faction was going to be in the base game anyway (The chaos invasions require models, stats, agents, the horde mechanic) at that point all they needed to really add were some quests and a victory condition. The only way I can accept the 'Chaos was not planned' excuse is if the chaos invasions were not supposed to be in the base game.
The original plan was that the Chaos invasion was never supposed to be planned, and halfway through development (like late 2015) they decided they wanted to add an endgame boss in the form of the Chaos Chosen Warriors.
On July 07 2016 01:33 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 00:15 RolleMcKnolle wrote:
I really don't like these kinds of answers. So you arent allowed to be dissatisfied with a non-functional feature that should make the game way more enjoyable? Having to fight every shitty fight isn't really what the game is about and takes away a lot of the fun. I don't see what is so hard to see there. And yes it obviously is possible to keep agents with my armies and I would think this works great if it actually did. But still my generals die like flies to an onslaught of enemy assassins.
Why does this story change anything? "they didnt have a large enough budget". CA was never to blame here. It was obviously SEGA from the beginning, since they are the publisher and handle all of the financial stuff. So if they set the budget small and the DLC schedule to include a Chaos-DLC CA can't really do shit about it. SEGA is no smallscale publisher. They have the money to pay development until finaltouch. They just chose to do so, since they gauged it to be more profitable this way. This is just how capitalism works, and I understand how people can feel cheated.
This was an obvious moneygrab in kind of forcing people to preorder or pay even more. No but the complaints about agents are clearly a l2p issue that can even be fixed by mods (before you try to pull that argument on me: no, mods fixing issues are no real excuse but in my opinion there is no major issue with agents, you just have to adapt (by using your own agents, embedding agents with skills that protect your lords etc.). I was a total war noob coming into this game and now I play on very hard / legendary occasionally, if I can deal with agents I am pretty sure most people can do as well and even better than I do. Also they got a bit adjusted in the last patch. Lord sniping in MP is definitely an issue as I agreed and should be fixed, especially for vampires. Complaining about autoresolve being abuse able is like complaining that you can change the battle difficulty or that easy is way too easy. It is a feature built in to cut a bit of time, if you abuse it is your fault for doing so. I am always all about freedom for the player and fuck those who can’t handle it and ruin their own fun. I have to stop here because otherwise this part will derail into a major rant about people somehow apparently needing guidance for the most basic shit and therefore making games restrictive where they shouldn’t be… Complaining about the ending being a simple textscreen might be a valid complaint and indicator for them running out of time/money at the end for example and as I said, if the story about the chaos-dlc isn’t true I am against this DLC for sure but it seems plausible to me.
The Vampire lord sniping in MP is a symptom of CA trying too hard to stick to each races strength in the tabletop version. VC has some of the strongest heroes in the game and some of the stronger spells in the game. CA attempted to mirror that in the game, and you have some issues where they just snipe the shit out of your heroes (which is actually what they sort of do on the tabletop also). I think actually Mannfred actually was one of the best casters at some point under end time rules? So yeah, it's silly that he can just cast and blast heroes into oblivion in the actual game, however that's not actually far from the actual tabletop at all.
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Netherlands21351 Posts
A balance mechanic for Lords would have been nice, After all in the tabletop game an Empire general is much cheaper then a Vampire Lord. No such mechanic exists in the pc game. Atleast units have a cost and upkeep for balance.
The main problem with sniping is not the Vampires but the spells themselves. They should not have put in spells designed to snipe characters. If they wanted them for use against Monsters they could have made Characters invalid targets.
Vampire Lords are just one of the best ways to go about sniping.
(and yes I know lords have cost and upkeep too but they are all fixed and not a balance mechanic)
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On July 07 2016 01:33 superstartran wrote:
The Vampire lord sniping in MP is a symptom of CA trying too hard to stick to each races strength in the tabletop version. VC has some of the strongest heroes in the game and some of the stronger spells in the game. CA attempted to mirror that in the game, and you have some issues where they just snipe the shit out of your heroes (which is actually what they sort of do on the tabletop also). I think actually Mannfred actually was one of the best casters at some point under end time rules? So yeah, it's silly that he can just cast and blast heroes into oblivion in the actual game, however that's not actually far from the actual tabletop at all.
Actually, in TT vampires are pretty shit casters but they wreck face in melee. They're powerful because they're practically the sole damage output of your entire army (and you don't build them for casting because losing your general hurts undead a lot and miscasts do happen). The problem with hero sniping in the CG as opposed to TT is the fact that you can't really hide your lords and heroes within units (in TT you do have sniping spells, cannons and such but if the lord/hero is within a unit you have to target the unit and not the character). What TWH is missing is the ability to embed characters within units (like you could do in DoW). This, of course, doesn't change the fact that some spells are simply too strong (Fate of Bjuna and Wind of Death come to mind when speaking of damaging units) and the fact that you have 2 of the best damage-dealing spells within a single lore is pretty obnoxious.
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On July 07 2016 02:32 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 01:33 superstartran wrote:
The Vampire lord sniping in MP is a symptom of CA trying too hard to stick to each races strength in the tabletop version. VC has some of the strongest heroes in the game and some of the stronger spells in the game. CA attempted to mirror that in the game, and you have some issues where they just snipe the shit out of your heroes (which is actually what they sort of do on the tabletop also). I think actually Mannfred actually was one of the best casters at some point under end time rules? So yeah, it's silly that he can just cast and blast heroes into oblivion in the actual game, however that's not actually far from the actual tabletop at all. Actually, in TT vampires are pretty shit casters but they wreck face in melee. They're powerful because they're practically the sole damage output of your entire army (and you don't build them for casting because losing your general hurts undead a lot and miscasts do happen). The problem with hero sniping in the CG as opposed to TT is the fact that you can't really hide your lords and heroes within units (in TT you do have sniping spells, cannons and such but if the lord/hero is within a unit you have to target the unit and not the character). What TWH is missing is the ability to embed characters within units (like you could do in DoW). This, of course, doesn't change the fact that some spells are simply too strong (Fate of Bjuna and Wind of Death come to mind when speaking of damaging units) and the fact that you have 2 of the best damage-dealing spells within a single lore is pretty obnoxious.
I'm pretty sure Mannfred was actually the best caster before they revised some of the rules and basically made him Konrad 2.0
Also prior to a few revisions of the rulesets, VC had by far the best casters/spells in the TT because their units sucked a massive fat one.
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He was the best in the End Times (double loremaster ftw). But for the majority of games VC were using a blender lord in a unit of BK or a strigoi ghoul king instead.
His killing power is what swings the battles more than magic and the only things that could really go toe to toe in combat with a blender lord were kitted out daemon princes and chaos lords.
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Agents isn't abot l2p or anything, its about them being annoying and the AI spamming them like mad.
Autoresolve also isn't too weak, in fact its often WAY too strong, it let's you steamroll battles that otherwise would be close.
Hero sniping is not only a VC issue, Empire does it nearly as well... but ok, empire is overpoweted like fuck anyway (aside from the VC deathball) and can do whatever it feels like. Losing a lord decides battles for about every faction, it just becomes a sniping race.
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On July 07 2016 03:45 Velr wrote:
Agents isn't abot l2p or anything, its about them being annoying and the AI spamming them like mad.
Autoresolve also isn't too weak, in fact its often WAY too strong, it let's you steamroll battles that otherwise would be close.
Hero sniping is not only a VC issue, Empire does it nearly as well... but ok, empire is overpoweted like fuck anyway (aside from the VC deathball) and can do whatever it feels like. Losing a lord decides battles for about every faction, it just becomes a sniping race.
My point wasn't that autoresolve is too weak, it was "If you abuse autoresolve by stacking 20 goblin spearmen and winning everything with autoresolve, you are the one to blame". I see it as a way for players that aren't very good to still enjoy the game and no issue at all since it doesn't really hurt you if someone else uses it in their solo run. When playing the campaign against eachother but I believe this would be more of a speculative then a real problem.
And agents are an l2p matter since virtually everyone that doesn’t use mods seems be able to deal with them. I haven’t really checked out streams, but of the 3 very hard/legendary players I saw, none was using any mods that address agents. Is it a nuisance? Sure, but so are rebellions, some random events etc. I personally find them to be right about the proper amount of annoying to not be game breaking while still making things challenging. If the AI fields 8 high level agents you might start thinking about doing something about that before it is too late. And again, there are mods which allow you to address this, just like there are mods for people who want lower/no unit upkeep, no chaos horde infighting, no "great power" penalty, no confederation penalty, no AI cheats...
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Netherlands21351 Posts
Agents also depends a lot on faction imo.
Greenskins and Vampire Counts first hero (Goblin Big Boss and Banshee) have 3x improved assassination chance in the first set of skills. This gives you access to reasonably successful assassinations while the other factions struggle much more. Empire takes a while longer having to unlock Witch Hunters and Dwarfs & Chaos never get it, being stuck with a single point increase in chance, often at high hero levels.
Same deal with March Blocking. Early access to it prevent the benny hill stuff.
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On July 07 2016 03:14 Manit0u wrote:
He was the best in the End Times (double loremaster ftw). But for the majority of games VC were using a blender lord in a unit of BK or a strigoi ghoul king instead.
His killing power is what swings the battles more than magic and the only things that could really go toe to toe in combat with a blender lord were kitted out daemon princes and chaos lords.
It mostly depends on what edition we are talking about.
The reason vampire casters weren't really amazing on 8th is because you can use master necromancers instead. Cheaper withouth having to pay for stuff you don't want for your general on an army that has the means to be able to shield the general well. Blender lord was a one trick pony army list easy to redirect for armies with the tools to do it and make it waste its high cost.
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On July 07 2016 08:08 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 03:14 Manit0u wrote:
He was the best in the End Times (double loremaster ftw). But for the majority of games VC were using a blender lord in a unit of BK or a strigoi ghoul king instead.
His killing power is what swings the battles more than magic and the only things that could really go toe to toe in combat with a blender lord were kitted out daemon princes and chaos lords. It mostly depends on what edition we are talking about. The reason vampire casters weren't really amazing on 8th is because you can use master necromancers instead. Cheaper withouth having to pay for stuff you don't want for your general on an army that has the means to be able to shield the general well. Blender lord was a one trick pony army list easy to redirect for armies with the tools to do it and make it waste its high cost.
Yeah, but without blender lord you run into a problem of your units not doing any real damage, which turns games into slow grind, hoping that you can win through attrition alone. This is fine until you run into some dumb cheese like Beastmen minobus, which kills your models much, much faster than you can raise them back.
It's a bit similar for TK, but they have a bit more "oomph" on the whole, with plentiful chariots and mummies making your skellies better (not to mention having some ranged capabilities as well).
But it's been a while since I played any Warhammer on TT so I might be completely wrong.
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i play modless and i havent had any problems with enemy agents / benny hill or anything
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On July 08 2016 03:47 ChunderBoy wrote:
i play modless and i havent had any problems with enemy agents / benny hill or anything
That's probably because you don't play the game without using your agents early. That's a huge mistake alot of people make new to the Total War series. If you neglect your agents early on and try to get them leveled, you're going to be in big trouble later in the game when the AI has highly leveled agents against yours.
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On July 08 2016 05:53 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 03:47 ChunderBoy wrote:
i play modless and i havent had any problems with enemy agents / benny hill or anything That's probably because you don't play the game without using your agents early. That's a huge mistake alot of people make new to the Total War series. If you neglect your agents early on and try to get them leveled, you're going to be in big trouble later in the game when the AI has highly leveled agents against yours.
maybe ppl level up agents for combat coz its funner
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On July 09 2016 02:27 ChunderBoy wrote:
maybe ppl level up agents for combat coz its funner
As long as they don't complain about the consequences it is fine, but they shouldn't mislabel it as bad design if they are helpless against the opposing agents then. That’s like complaining that bats only isn't a valid endgame-vampire army comp just because you like it and therefore it should work. To quote a famous CoH2-player: #adapt. If you dont wan't to play to the rules you should not expect to get away with it unharmed. Or you simply should download the mods that change the rules to your desires : D
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Here's a fun/challenging modded campaign for you guys that I had a lot of fun with.
"The Shield of Civilization"
Flavor Text
+ Show Spoiler +You are the Dwarves of Kraka Drak, settled in the mountains on the Northern Border of the world. Chaos stirs on your borders, and you are the front line of Civilization against this threat. You are outnumbered, outgunned, with only Kisling as your ally, but you will stand firm and weather the storm of Norsca and Chaos Warriors and they will break against your walls.
Campaign Rules
+ Show Spoiler +-Play as Kraka Drak Faction on at least Very Hard difficulty.
-You may not ever take control of any settlement outside of the Giantholme Mountains. (Your three starting settlements)
-You must declare war on Chaos as soon as they spawn.
Campaign Victory Conditions
+ Show Spoiler +Short Campaign
-Survive to see the Warriors of Chaos eradicated.
Long Campaign
-In addition, purge the Skaeling and Varg from the world.
Mod List
+ Show Spoiler +
Crucial
-Factions Unlock Campaign Dwarf Edition : Lets you play as Kraka Drak
-Radious Total War Mod : Makes this campaign possible - wouldn't really be able to support enough stacks off the 3 settlements to fight chaos without it. If you manage to win without this mod, I am very very impressed.
-Radious Total Units Mod : Needed for Radious Mod
Personal Preference
-Better Camera Mod
-Conquer Anything (Excluding Norse) : Doesn't really matter for this campaign, as you won't be moving from your starting settlements, but it will change how the south plays out.
-Full Cost March Stance : Nerfs march stance a lot, preventing benny hill gameplay. Probably actually makes this campaign harder, but I much prefer the game with it.
-Less AI Cheating : Not sure how much this affects the game, but I prefer AI to be hard through other means then cheating.
This was definitely the hardest campaign I have done in this game. I feel like you have to race to eradicate the chaos tribes before chaos arrives, or you will simply just get overrun by way too many armies to deal with. Even then, dealing with Archaeon's 5+ stacks when you can only support a few is hard.
Edit: I'm going to pretend this was my 1000th post.
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It's your Korean 1000th post.
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I finally finished my legendary Empire campaign. It took 282 turns, the last 100 of which were a major chore. All of the non-Southern human factions were wiped out, with the entirety of the North razed, so I had to resettle everything manually. I ended up occupying every province necessary for an Empire victory, plus everything in the Bretonnian provinces and Estalia in the Southwest. I also probably lost about 30-50 turns due to Marienburg being razed by the last Chaos army. The big turning point was getting peace agreements in place with the Norsca tribes (after I thoroughly brutalized like five of their stacks in one turn), who then continued to war against everyone else for the rest of the game, giving me room to expand build up five armies, two of which I used for the final push against the vampire factions in the east. Frankly, I got more help from minor-faction Orks and the Norsca tribes who were always wandering around my territory wiping out mutual enemies than any other faction. I really didn't like it when the Dwarves and Tileans declared war on me for no good reason. The campaign AI is definitely wonky. It could use some tuning.
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About the last 100 turns being a chore - hell yes. I usually start new campaigns about 150 turns in, because frankly, the rest of the game is only me either lightning-striking strong armies, or steamrolling weak armies, or waiting for siege counters. No challenge, no fun.
I'd love for different victory conditions, such as x rounds.
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EPT
