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ESEA Invite League - Page 9

Forum Index > General Games
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icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
February 09 2015 03:35 GMT
#161
wow what a clutch eco round for liquid
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
February 09 2015 03:37 GMT
#162
CLG got lucky here
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
johnbongham
Profile Joined April 2014
451 Posts
February 09 2015 03:41 GMT
#163
skin betting is ruining this game. CSGL needs banned now. Waiting on valve to do something right for once.
SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
February 09 2015 03:43 GMT
#164
The disconnect stuff is why I don't bet on Online matches.

Even after all that I Just love watching Liquid on ecos they are so good with five sevens.
I am Godzilla You are Japan
climax
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1088 Posts
February 09 2015 04:48 GMT
#165
pausESEA is killing me
Twitter: @JonathanRosales
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13407 Posts
February 09 2015 04:56 GMT
#166
This is brutal with all the dcs
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-09 08:06:20
February 09 2015 08:05 GMT
#167
Statement from ESEA regarding their no rescheduling policy:

first, both matches last night weren't fun for anyone involved, they weren't fun for the players, the teams, the casters, viewers, they weren't fun for me either

that being said, we will continue to not allow reschedules for player ddos issues because standards need to be set in the following areas:

1. organizations need to be responsible for protecting their player ip addresses

2. organizations need to be prepared with a backup for situations like tonight

this isn't amateur anymore, a lot of money is at stake and an increasing number of eyes are on the world of esports -- we all need to do a better job

in the past we deserved a significant share of the blame for making it easy to ddos matches, and to solve that we put in a significant amount of time and money towards making improvements

in the past valve deserved a share of the blame for the ease in which an ip address could be obtained over steam, and to solve that they put in the time necessary to address the issue

now the current culprit appears to be voip applications including skype and mumble

rather than rely on developers to fix the inherent problems we're going to be working with invite teams and will be requiring all players to use the following, or an equivalent:

http://proxee.net

that solves the problem in that you use it purely as a vpn to connect to skype -- it won't affect your in-game latency in any way, and if and when your ip address is leaked over skype it won't impact your primary connection

i would encourage all players who take the game seriously to consider using a voip proxy like the above so that you don't find yourself in a situation like a number of players found themselves tonight

this will ultimately be a small bump in the road as esports continues to grow, but it's something we can all work towards fixing

Source: http://play.esea.net/index.php?s=forums&d=topic&id=627837


What do you guys think? I pretty much agree that players and organizations should be required to take all the necessary precautions to protect against DDoS. My only question is, will a VOIP proxy be enough? Or are players having their IP leaked other ways as well?
Writer
Zaqwe
Profile Joined March 2012
591 Posts
February 09 2015 08:19 GMT
#168
ESEA is 100% correct.

The only way to put a stop to this DDOSing is on the players end.

There is literally no other option. Either players fix the problem, or DDOS attacks will continue.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8159 Posts
February 09 2015 09:23 GMT
#169
who won? i went to bed
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 09 2015 10:04 GMT
#170
C9 ff'd after like three hours or something.
Writer
pyro19
Profile Joined August 2010
6575 Posts
February 09 2015 10:16 GMT
#171
Pantemera had 1700 euro protection and they still got ddos'd for quite sometime. If ddosers want to attack you , it will happen no matter how much protection you get.

I know that CSGL is one of the biggest contributors to CSGO's popularity but this shit is getting out of hand now.
Thy Shall Die Alone...or emm..something like that.
Jer99
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada8159 Posts
February 09 2015 11:11 GMT
#172
On February 09 2015 19:04 Souma wrote:
C9 ff'd after like three hours or something.

I mean liquid vs clg
StrategyTaeJa #1 || @TL_Jer99 || "seeker seeked out his seeking"
Zaqwe
Profile Joined March 2012
591 Posts
February 09 2015 11:52 GMT
#173
On February 09 2015 19:16 pyro19 wrote:
Pantemera had 1700 euro protection and they still got ddos'd for quite sometime. If ddosers want to attack you , it will happen no matter how much protection you get.

I know that CSGL is one of the biggest contributors to CSGO's popularity but this shit is getting out of hand now.

Organizations with public IP addresses need a different class of DDOS protection.

Players just need to hide their IP address.

There's nothing CSGL can do about this. Scapegoating them isn't constructive. The only people who can solve this are the players. Everything else is pissing in the wind.
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
February 09 2015 13:57 GMT
#174
On February 09 2015 20:11 Jer99 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2015 19:04 Souma wrote:
C9 ff'd after like three hours or something.

I mean liquid vs clg

clg 16-14 ._.
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
DPK
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada487 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-09 20:01:57
February 09 2015 20:01 GMT
#175
After all these DDOS, I find it hilarious that they just realize that a VOIP proxy could help. Sure it's not a "bulletproof" solution but it can only help. Another solution would be to improve ingame com so players would be willing to use it instead of using 3rd party VOIP programs. I mean, according to ESEA, now the problem is coming from those VOIP app, why not stop using them?
Desire.Discipline.Dedication
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
February 09 2015 21:10 GMT
#176
On February 10 2015 05:01 DPK wrote:
After all these DDOS, I find it hilarious that they just realize that a VOIP proxy could help. Sure it's not a "bulletproof" solution but it can only help. Another solution would be to improve ingame com so players would be willing to use it instead of using 3rd party VOIP programs. I mean, according to ESEA, now the problem is coming from those VOIP app, why not stop using them?


The problem is with skype itself. You don't have to be using it for CSGO communication for it to leak your IP. You could ban every player from using skype since it has such a glaring security flaw, but that isn't reasonable.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
February 10 2015 01:18 GMT
#177
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/men-in-blue/468707-a-short-ddos-primer

r1ch made a guide about this. idk why liquid players arent implementing it
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
wptlzkwjd
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1240 Posts
February 10 2015 03:02 GMT
#178
On February 09 2015 12:33 Djzapz wrote:
I, for one, do not believe for a ****ing second, that CLG would've won this game without the DDOS. The fucking asshole is probably laughing his ass off with his little botnet.


Absolutely ridiculous that they allowed the 4v5 to happen and then had McNutty start off with no money the immediate round after the 4v5 which cost liquid at least 2 lost rounds if not more.

I was still disappointed that Liquid couldn't tie it on CT side with 4 AKs and an AWP and full nade buys on the 30th round.
Feel free to add me on steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/MagnusAskeland/
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
February 10 2015 04:16 GMT
#179
On February 10 2015 10:18 icystorage wrote:
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/men-in-blue/468707-a-short-ddos-primer

r1ch made a guide about this. idk why liquid players arent implementing it



Those without staff access can't see that post. I quoted it below to allow for others to see it.

+ Show Spoiler [DDOS protection from R1CH] +

On October 08 2014 07:44 R1CH wrote:
There's a lot of issues affecting tournament games recently in Dota 2, and a lot of people are quick to blame it on DDoS. However there's also some misunderstanding of what a DDoS is and what it can affect, so I thought I'd write a post to clear some of it up.

What's a DDoS?
As some background, I used to run game servers back in 2001 for several years and dealt with DDoS attacks against the game servers, associated websites and my ISP. Obviously these days the attacks are a lot larger, but the principle of a DDoS attack is still the same: overwhelm a network connection with data to the point where it becomes unusable.

DDoS stands for Distributed Denial of Service. Distributed means the attack comes from many IPs distributed around the world, in the form of compromised home users, websites, dedicated servers, routers and more. A non-distributed DoS attack is quite trivial to block once you isolate the offending IP, however a DDoS is much harder to block since the IPs are mixed in with legitimate IPs.

How It Works
For a DDoS attack to work, the crucial piece of information an attacker needs is an IP address. Without an IP, there's nowhere to send the attack traffic. Thus it's very important to make sure IP addresses remain private to be safe from an attack.

Once an attacker has an IP, they command their network of compromised PCs to flood it with garbage data. Most attackers don't actually own such a network and instead pay to rent out a botnet to launch attacks, or use a pay-to-DDoS service.

How Can I Tell If I'm Being DDoSed?
Generally since your internet connection will be completely flooded, a DDoS attack will manifest as your game having unplayable latency and packet loss, disconnections from voip software, websites failing to load and inability to really do much of anything with your internet connection. Eventually the game may time out once no legitimate data is able to get through.

If you lose the connection to the game server but can still browse websites and chat on teamspeak etc, it's not a DDoS attack but likely a routing issue to the game server - unfortunately there isn't anything you can do about this but wait for it to subside. While it could also be the game server crashed or an attack on the game server, you'd have to confirm with other players to know for sure.

How To Mess Up A Dota 2 Game
There's several ways someone can interfere with a Dota 2 game.

1) Attack the players
By finding the IP of a player, you can trivially knock them offline with a minimal amount of bandwidth. Since most players are playing from residential connections with limited download speed, a DDoS attack can easily saturate a typical 100mbps connection.

2) Attack the Dota 2 network
If the attacker has enough bandwidth, they can try to destablize the Dota 2 servers. Since the IP of the servers are public, it's just a case of throwing enough bandwidth at them and hoping one of the upstream links gets saturated, causing lag and disconnections.

3) Attack the Dota 2 game server
If the IP address of the game server is able to be discovered, the attacker can directly hit that specific game server. Much like a home user, each individual server has less available bandwidth than the entire ISP, likely limited by a 1gbps ethernet connection. If you're able to figure out the server IP, it's quite easy to cause lag and disconnections by saturating the uplink to the game server.

Update: A recent Dota 2 update fixed a few issues related to how the game server IP could be discovered, but there may be other methods that aren't as well known.

4) Attack random servers
Similar to the above attack, multiple servers share a physical switch, which itself has limited upstream bandwidth. Even if you don't know the game server IP, you can hope to get lucky and find another server on the same switch, and overload the bandwidth of the switch. Since each game server IP hosts multiple Dota 2 games, one switch could represent several hundred active games.

As far as I can tell, most attacks against tournament games fall into categories 1) and 3).

Examples
It's not always possible to determine if something is the result of a DDoS or other network problem. For example, someone constantly disconnecting from a game could just mean their internet is being flaky rather than an attack.

Example: All the players in a gaming house drop at the same time
Cannot be determined. Either their internet connection is having trouble or it's an attack. The only way to know is for the players to monitor incoming bandwidth at their router.

Example: Several unrelated people drop from a game at the same time
Most likely an internet routing issue. There are many different routes to the servers, and if a route experiences a problem, anyone using that route would be affected. There's a small possibility it could be an attack that is only able to saturate that specific route.

Example: Everyone on the server lags or drops at the same time
This is probably a DDoS attack on the server, or an internal network issue inside the Dota 2 network.

Keep in mind that online gaming is much more demanding of your internet connection than web browsing or downloading files. Routes can change all the time and you'd normally never even notice, but during a game even a few hundred milliseconds of dropped packets during a re-routing event or other network issue can be very noticeable.

Protection
The key way to stay protected is to hide your IP - without an IP, there's nothing to attack. Players should never have to reveal their IP, and should stay away from IRC and P2P networks that might expose it. Skype is a big problem as it can reveal your IP very easily, but there are ways around that.

Anyone on your Steam friends list or in the same steam group as you can also find your IP using the voice call feature. The Steam Beta has an update to protect against this, if you don't use the Beta then it's best to remove anyone you don't trust from your friends list and leave any public groups.

For Valve and their game servers, this becomes a bit harder. The IP of the servers is public, since people have to know the game server IPs to be able to connect and play games on them. To avoid attack scenario 3) above, it's important that players and spectators in tournament games don't reveal the IP of the game server they're playing on. Simply opening the console will show this information, so avoid the temptation to check pings via the console or similar while streaming.

There are hardware mitigation devices that can attempt to identify and filter out DDoS traffic, but these are expensive and scale poorly - you need enough bandwidth plus filter capacity to handle the biggest DDoS attack against you.

Other service providers offer scrubbing services, where the real IP of the game server is essentially protected through a high bandwidth proxy and all traffic is examined and filtered before being routed to the real server. Unfortunately this doesn't work well for game servers, since the scrubbing and re-routing can add significant latency.

Another option is simply to throw more bandwidth at the problem. If you have more bandwidth than the attackers then you won't suffer a complete network outage, but individual servers can still be targeted if the IP is found.

As you can see, unfortunately there aren't really many good solutions for protecting game servers. Large DDoS attacks do get investigated and it's possible the bigger attack networks will get shut down, but tracing an attack is often very hard if not impossible without detailed forensic investigation of the compromised systems that are part of the attack.

It's also difficult to know if something is the result of a DDoS attack or legitimate network issues. Players would need to be able to check incoming bandwidth on their router to confirm an attack, which is not something many routers offer. Game servers lagging could also be due to poor routing or internal Dota 2 network issues.

The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
February 10 2015 04:54 GMT
#180
oh shit my bad =.= thanks amazingxkcd!
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
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