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For what it's worth a ladder or league system with a soft reset is actually fine. If you're a certain rank in LoL it's generally pretty accurate in assessing your skill (skill being defined here as ability to win).
That being said however is not any argument against the usefulness of MMR since all it is is MMR binned within a certain range.
When you're arguing better or worse I think the best argument you'd have is you'd avoid the pettiness of "4500 vs 4450" and you can dress up ranks as "Diamond IV" or "Masters I" which is more presentable. That's all pretty insignificant at the end of the day though. MMR is the best single metric we currently have. It's statistics. It's a fact.
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Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system.
Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season.
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On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season.
Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system?
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On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system?
I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank.
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On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank.
Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with).
When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR?
The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment.
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On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank.
That's the stupidest thing I heard today (and I watched the whole Rep debate because bored at work). By that logic why show win / lose, or kill score, or anything really?
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On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank.
Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever.
I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs.
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On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment.
Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way.
The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win?
The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal.
On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs.
Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR.
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On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs.
Because of perception.
Your MMR is not a flat line. it oscillates and does creates bad feelings in players. They believe they belong at the highest peak rather then the average.
Hence why a league fudges the numbers you the player does not see the high and low points but only the average.
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So guys: maybe a noob question but can anyone explain me what the screens after the match actually mean? First you get screen with 4 players spotlighted, and I can give them points or something? What do these even do?
Then I just get a random screen with stat I don't understand / need. I really just want a screen with my stats displayed against my team stats. I have no idea how bad I'm doing atm.
Another thing: nobody talks ingame. Is everyone just in voice chat or am I missing something?
Liking the game, but for someone with 0 shooter experience the game really doenst tell you a lot.
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As far as I can tell the spotlight cards do nothing. its a way for you to say GJ person for doing whatever it is they did.
The stat screen does what it says, Your killing blows, the objective score you got ect. You get medals if your 1st/2nd/3e but I donno if that is for just your team or for both sides combined.
People don't talk a lot because it is a fast paced game. Its not like in League where you have little to do after you clicked to go somewhere and can type a bit. If you have time to type more then a few words your doing it wrong.
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On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR.
You make no logical sense.
Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss.
How can one have more positives than the other?
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On October 30 2015 05:08 Gorsameth wrote:
As far as I can tell the spotlight cards do nothing. its a way for you to say GJ person for doing whatever it is they did.
The stat screen does what it says, Your killing blows, the objective score you got ect. You get medals if your 1st/2nd/3e but I donno if that is for just your team or for both sides combined.
People don't talk a lot because it is a fast paced game. Its not like in League where you have little to do after you clicked to go somewhere and can type a bit. If you have time to type more then a few words your doing it wrong.
The spotlight cards do nothing for now. They've talked about what they have in mind though, such as cosmetic stuff, portraits, etc
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On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other?
Because human perception is not always logical.
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On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other?
I made my points in the post you quoted and I feel its better for the end user.
On October 30 2015 05:24 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other? Because human perception is not always logical.
And also this and the point post Gorsameth made about peoples interaction with naked MMR system and how it fluctuates.
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On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR.
The only other things I'd add is that if the goal is to minimize the bad feeling of losing, then designating imaginary leagues to "buckets" of 100 MMR would achieve the same thing, imo.
I do understand your argument, I just don't necessarily agree with it. But which system is chosen doesn't matter all that much to me - I'm capable of knowing when I improve and when I don't.
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On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system?
Less of a negative factor because there is no downside to losing when you are just barely within a certain division.
Alot of people are scared to play more when they get into a new division as they fear dropping back to the old division
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On October 30 2015 05:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other? I made my points in the post you quoted and I feel its better for the end user. Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 05:24 Gorsameth wrote:On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other? Because human perception is not always logical. And also this and the point post Gorsameth made about peoples interaction with naked MMR system and how it fluctuates.
But it's really not. Let's look at LoL's system again. In each Division, you go from 0-100 LP and then you promote into the next Division/League. So that means, in essence, 0 LP at Bronze 5 is 0 MMR, and 100 LP at Gold 1 is 1500 MMR.
Ignoring the promotion/demotion system (which acts more like a rubber band than a gate), then there is functionally no difference between showing 1195 MMR and showing Gold 5 with 95 LP. They are literally the same thing. Except you chunk it into a group.
And if you gain 10 MMR/LP, there's no difference between being 1205 MMR and Gold 4 with 5 LP, other than the little badge associated with it. That is the difference, is how the little badge makes you feel. Neither is better at tracking your "progress" or "skill", it's just rewards.
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On October 30 2015 05:24 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. The only other things I'd add is that if the goal is to minimize the bad feeling of losing, then designating imaginary leagues to "buckets" of 100 MMR would achieve the same thing, imo. I do understand your argument, I just don't necessarily agree with it. But which system is chosen doesn't matter all that much to me - I'm capable of knowing when I improve and when I don't.
Which is sort of my point. Personally, I know I have improved at playing dota in the last year, even if my MMR doesn’t reflect it. But my improvement came from playing anything but ranked matches. Most of my learning is done with players that are far better than I am, even if they are not actively teaching me.
I sort of see naked MMR as a trap, since to improve you need to play in a system(solo match making)that is likely the least efficient way to get better at the game.
Requizen: you seem to be debating some fictitious version of me.
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On October 30 2015 05:33 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2015 05:24 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other? I made my points in the post you quoted and I feel its better for the end user. On October 30 2015 05:24 Gorsameth wrote:On October 30 2015 05:12 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:52 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:40 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Let's use the LoL ladder system as a basis (since it's the one I'm most familiar with). When you lose, you lose League Points. How is this any different than losing MMR? The biggest difference is that if you fall to the bottom of your ladder division from continually losing, you won't fall out of that division until your hidden MMR falls low enough to tear you out of it. So in reality, the ladder system is just masking your failure by hiding a more accurate metric assessment. Because the person values what league they are in, not points within that league. Getting to the next league is aspirational and the points are just how they get there. The system shows progressive over long periods of time and forgoes reporting on the bumps along the way. The real question is what does the player gain by dropping out of a league right after they lose a match at 0 points? They just lost a game, so they know they played poorly. Dropping them down to a lower league likely to make them want to play more? Is it easy for them to get back into the league with a single win? The problem with the discussion is people want to see "progress' assume that any number rising denotes progress and wave any pitfalls of simple based on a single number. The league system is similar, but provides more obtainable goals for the player and tries to prevent some of the harsher parts of a league system from discouraging them. But people see that as "inaccurate", which accuracy from game to game was never the goal. On October 30 2015 04:41 Requizen wrote:On October 30 2015 04:34 Plansix wrote:On October 30 2015 04:29 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 30 2015 04:25 Hider wrote:Citing ladder anxiety as part of an argument against MMR is meaningless because it would be more or less the same in a ladder system. Well depends if you can drop down a rank to another during a season. Would that make ladder anxiety more or less of a negative factor for a ladder system vs a visible MMR system? I would say visible MMR if you lose MMR every match. Especially in a team game where you are not in full control of all aspects of the match. At least in ladder rankings, there is this buffer before you get knocked down to the previous rank. Yeah, but with MMR you gain it back immediately as well. There's no promotion system like there is in League, where one or two bad games can keep you from going Silver -> Gold or whatever. I don't really understand your complaining here. Any system will have bad matches or ups/downs. Youre correct, I am of the opinion a league system has more positives than naked MMR. You make no logical sense. Both League systems and basic MMR are basically linear. Replace "Bronze", "Silver", "Gold" with arbitrary groups like "0-100", "100-200", and "200-300" and it's the same thing. "I'm trying to get into Gold" is the same thing as saying "I'm trying to get to 200+ MMR". There is no difference other than a shiny badge attributed to it. You can go up and down Leagues just like you can go up and down MMR. Whether the exact number is obfuscated or not makes no difference. It's all based on win/loss. How can one have more positives than the other? Because human perception is not always logical. And also this and the point post Gorsameth made about peoples interaction with naked MMR system and how it fluctuates. But it's really not. Let's look at LoL's system again. In each Division, you go from 0-100 LP and then you promote into the next Division/League. So that means, in essence, 0 LP at Bronze 5 is 0 MMR, and 100 LP at Gold 1 is 1500 MMR. Ignoring the promotion/demotion system (which acts more like a rubber band than a gate), then there is functionally no difference between showing 1195 MMR and showing Gold 5 with 95 LP. They are literally the same thing. Except you chunk it into a group. And if you gain 10 MMR/LP, there's no difference between being 1205 MMR and Gold 4 with 5 LP, other than the little badge associated with it. That is the difference, is how the little badge makes you feel. Neither is better at tracking your "progress" or "skill", it's just rewards.
Fine i'll say it again.
The Perception is different. How people react to the information presented is different.
That is the whole point of a league or ladder compared to pure MMR. To make you feel different.
Unless of course your a Vulcan, then I guess it really makes no difference.
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EPT
