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On March 19 2016 10:36 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 10:26 lestye wrote:On March 19 2016 08:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a belief that Overwatch will be a successful esport? What differentiates as a spectator game better than TF2? It's something new, a lot of hype towards it, and the developer/publisher is going to support it. It's guaranteed to have an esport scene of some type. TF2 has a lot going against it, the fact the game is purposefully broken and imbalanced with the many different augmenting hats and archiac class limiting rules, as well as a developer that doesn't really care about ranked matchmaking, or supporting it. Overwatch has a lot more going for it, hence why organizers/ team organizations are already investing in it. Worst case scenario, it'll be the size of Halo with a few sizeable events throughout the year. Pathetic compared to CS:GO, but its still going to be the 2nd best PC shooter people are going to be interested in. Wouldn't it be the third best compared to Call of Duty? TF2 competitive was 6 to 9-man teams with restricted weapon choices (usually just the basics + some permitted exterior). Does Blizzard really count as "publisher" supported if we look at their current history of esports titles and scenes?
Despite all that, to me; the weak spectator mode and spam projectiles makes it difficult to gauge skill/value of teams and matches. A lot of projectiles are flying and very little ability to distinguish the differences, similar to TF2's issues.
PC Call of Duty is absolute garbage and isn't supported by the community nor Activision.
The fact is, this is the best looking PC Shooter on the market coming out, HUGE names, there's tons of interest.
Granted, I think you have a good point regarding the weak spectator mode, I think it will have an audience in spite of that. I think with the addition of interesting abilities and game impacting ultimates, that will be exciting to watch, in spite of it not being anywhere near as suspenseful as CS:GO.
So, I think it will be decent, it will for sure be the 2nd best PC shooter behind CS:GO, I have more faith in Overwatch than any shooter coming out, GRANTED, the bar is super low.
On March 19 2016 11:58 yookstah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 10:26 lestye wrote:On March 19 2016 08:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a belief that Overwatch will be a successful esport? What differentiates as a spectator game better than TF2? It's something new, a lot of hype towards it, and the developer/publisher is going to support it. It's guaranteed to have an esport scene of some type. TF2 has a lot going against it, the fact the game is purposefully broken and imbalanced with the many different augmenting hats and archiac class limiting rules, as well as a developer that doesn't really care about ranked matchmaking, or supporting it. Overwatch has a lot more going for it, hence why organizers/ team organizations are already investing in it. Worst case scenario, it'll be the size of Halo with a few sizeable events throughout the year. Pathetic compared to CS:GO, but its still going to be the 2nd best PC shooter people are going to be interested in. I'm sure unlocks will be a lot more lenient (maybe unrestricted), as well as class limits in the future when MM actually releases. Taking a stab at TF2's balancing issues and not Overwatch's is laughable, though.
It's not laughable at all. It doesn't matter how stupid you think Overwatch's balance is, at least they try to balance the game as opposed to Valve, where they dont do anything and the community has to balance it by adding arbitrary restrictions.
On March 19 2016 12:17 Torte de Lini wrote:ah, ok; this makes sense then. I was reading the subreddit and they were speaking like this game was going to have this huge scene and competitive presence. Thanks for clarifying! I assume Blizzard will have a tournament at their blizzcon like they do every year; but I wouldn't call that anything more than a celebration for Blizzard games
Here's the thing:WORST case scenario: If they have an Overwatch tournament every single year with say, a 200k prizepool: Congratulations you are now the 2nd best PC shooter esport. The bar is not high at all.
When you look at the PC shooter competitive scenes, outside of CS:GO, it's a complete joke. That's why a lot of the TF2 pros are looking at, considering of jumping ship because the scene/interest isn't that big.
We can bitch and moan all day about how the game isn't as fun/exciting/balanced/skillful as Quake/TF2/Reflex or whatever your favorite shooter is, but at the end of the day the competitive scene of those games are laughable, and Overwatch has a lot going for it.
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United States12240 Posts
I don't really see the connection here, because tournaments can and do exist (and thrive!) outside of the official ranked play framework for a game. Brood War's innate ranked play was so broken that nobody used it, and yet that game commanded one of the most successful esports structures in history. Some studios who manage their own competitive tournament scenes do use their own rankings as qualifications or for seeding, but there are plenty of community-run competitions that do not. Player communities can grow either way.
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On March 19 2016 12:28 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 10:36 Torte de Lini wrote:On March 19 2016 10:26 lestye wrote:On March 19 2016 08:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a belief that Overwatch will be a successful esport? What differentiates as a spectator game better than TF2? It's something new, a lot of hype towards it, and the developer/publisher is going to support it. It's guaranteed to have an esport scene of some type. TF2 has a lot going against it, the fact the game is purposefully broken and imbalanced with the many different augmenting hats and archiac class limiting rules, as well as a developer that doesn't really care about ranked matchmaking, or supporting it. Overwatch has a lot more going for it, hence why organizers/ team organizations are already investing in it. Worst case scenario, it'll be the size of Halo with a few sizeable events throughout the year. Pathetic compared to CS:GO, but its still going to be the 2nd best PC shooter people are going to be interested in. Wouldn't it be the third best compared to Call of Duty? TF2 competitive was 6 to 9-man teams with restricted weapon choices (usually just the basics + some permitted exterior). Does Blizzard really count as "publisher" supported if we look at their current history of esports titles and scenes?
Despite all that, to me; the weak spectator mode and spam projectiles makes it difficult to gauge skill/value of teams and matches. A lot of projectiles are flying and very little ability to distinguish the differences, similar to TF2's issues. PC Call of Duty is absolute garbage and isn't supported by the community nor Activision. The fact is, this is the best looking PC Shooter on the market coming out, HUGE names, there's tons of interest. Granted, I think you have a good point regarding the weak spectator mode, I think it will have an audience in spite of that. I think with the addition of interesting abilities and game impacting ultimates, that will be exciting to watch, in spite of it not being anywhere near as suspenseful as CS:GO. So, I think it will be decent, it will for sure be the 2nd best PC shooter behind CS:GO, I have more faith in Overwatch than any shooter coming out, GRANTED, the bar is super low. Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 11:58 yookstah wrote:On March 19 2016 10:26 lestye wrote:On March 19 2016 08:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a belief that Overwatch will be a successful esport? What differentiates as a spectator game better than TF2? It's something new, a lot of hype towards it, and the developer/publisher is going to support it. It's guaranteed to have an esport scene of some type. TF2 has a lot going against it, the fact the game is purposefully broken and imbalanced with the many different augmenting hats and archiac class limiting rules, as well as a developer that doesn't really care about ranked matchmaking, or supporting it. Overwatch has a lot more going for it, hence why organizers/ team organizations are already investing in it. Worst case scenario, it'll be the size of Halo with a few sizeable events throughout the year. Pathetic compared to CS:GO, but its still going to be the 2nd best PC shooter people are going to be interested in. I'm sure unlocks will be a lot more lenient (maybe unrestricted), as well as class limits in the future when MM actually releases. Taking a stab at TF2's balancing issues and not Overwatch's is laughable, though. It's not laughable at all. It doesn't matter how stupid you think Overwatch's balance is, at least they try to balance the game as opposed to Valve, where they dont do anything and the community has to balance it by adding arbitrary restrictions. Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 12:17 Torte de Lini wrote:On March 19 2016 12:12 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 19 2016 08:21 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is there a belief that Overwatch will be a successful esport? What differentiates as a spectator game better than TF2? as of February 17th Kaplan states they "haven't committed to a direction" with regards to ranked play http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-02-17-selling-loot-boxes-and-the-trouble-with-ranked-play-blizzard-on-overwatchuntil ranked play is nailed down its just another unknown making it difficult to gauge the game's future success as an esport the game is a lot of fun to play. will it be a successful esport? no clue. ah, ok; this makes sense then. I was reading the subreddit and they were speaking like this game was going to have this huge scene and competitive presence. Thanks for clarifying! I assume Blizzard will have a tournament at their blizzcon like they do every year; but I wouldn't call that anything more than a celebration for Blizzard games Here's the thing:WORST case scenario: If they have an Overwatch tournament every single year with say, a 200k prizepool: Congratulations you are now the 2nd best PC shooter esport. The bar is not high at all. When you look at the PC shooter competitive scenes, outside of CS:GO, it's a complete joke. That's why a lot of the TF2 pros are looking at, considering of jumping ship because the scene/interest isn't that big. We can bitch and moan all day about how the game isn't as fun/exciting/balanced/skillful as Quake/TF2/Reflex or whatever your favorite shooter is, but at the end of the day the competitive scene of those games are laughable, and Overwatch has a lot going for it.
It's good-looking, some flaws regarding UI and such. I won't nitpick, but I think it's most glaring problem is its visual distinction. It is incredible difficult to decipher what is going on and I think that'll transfer for a spectator similar to the difficult TF2 faced. Only difference is that TF2 has less (types of projectiles and abilities).
I think TF2 isn't balanced because of its decided direction. It was never intended to be competitive beyond what a subgroup of the public wanted. Valve's desire to embrace Esports was evidently much later. That's why I think "developer support" is a moot argument when it comes to Overwatch's potentially developed scene.
Isn't COD's prize-pool for World Championship 1 million? and their latest league is definitely being taken a much further step than previous iterations. I don't watch, but I do know the participation level is high (viewership is debatable).
My main original question was because I was reading expectations that Overwatch's esports scene will blow up which seemed over-the-top and not at all taking into considerations Blizzard's history in supporting their other titles and scenes (tournament structure, etc.) as well as a more neutral stance at some glaring issues Overwatch faces as it nears Open Beta and retail release (poor visual cues, lack of spectator mode support/visible information, etc.)
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I mean, visual distinction might be a fair criticism, but I think fans of the game will watch it no matter what.
If I put you in front of LoL, it's going to look like a bunch of over the top, flashy graphics, you're not going to know. I certainly wouldn't know. It's like that for other games. The games you don't play is all a huge mess.
Developer support is a lot. I can't imagine where Dota would be without TI and the like.
And your point regarding balance, I think that's a pro to Overwatch, it's going to strive for more balance so its more likely to take off, as opposed to TF2 where its... well its TF2.
CoD's prizepool is 1 million. But regardless that's for CONSOLES, so thats a whole nother issue.
If you're looking for PC shooters, Overwatch is going to take off, how high is yet to be seen. Your points regarding clarity of the Ui and the spectator mode, they're something, not gonna lie, but if you play the game yourself you're going be more tolerable of it.
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On March 19 2016 14:14 lestye wrote:
I mean, visual distinction might be a fair criticism, but I think fans of the game will watch it no matter what.
If I put you in front of LoL, it's going to look like a bunch of over the top, flashy graphics, you're not going to know. I certainly wouldn't know. It's like that for other games. The games you don't play is all a huge mess.
Developer support is a lot. I can't imagine where Dota would be without TI and the like.
And your point regarding balance, I think that's a pro to Overwatch, it's going to strive for more balance so its more likely to take off, as opposed to TF2 where its... well its TF2.
CoD's prizepool is 1 million. But regardless that's for CONSOLES, so thats a whole nother issue.
If you're looking for PC shooters, Overwatch is going to take off, how high is yet to be seen. Your points regarding clarity of the Ui and the spectator mode, they're something, not gonna lie, but if you play the game yourself you're going be more tolerable of it.
I play the game and I find it even less tolerable (more the weak FOV, but that's personal preference) [than TF2 which has less to be able to identify in its competitive setting].
Why do you disregard CoD as for consoles, but compare Overwatch with another genre (LoL - MOBA). That seems a bit contradictory as arguments, unless I misunderstand.
There is no doubt in my mind that Overwatch will be popular, it has a lot of value that I initially dismissed when I play a long time ago.
It's viability as an esport, I'm still on the fence.
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I'm saying they're for different audiences. If you're intersted in PC FPS, CoD on PC is not something you'd do competitively.
Because of that, I think Overwatch has a huge potential of people, because its different enough than CS:GO.
Like make a list of every PC FPS esport that's out right now, and look at their viewer numbers. That's why I think Overwatch is a shoe-in. The bar is incredibly low even if Overwatch has a fuck ton of problems with the UI.
What PC shooters do you think are the big esports right now? What PC shooters that are coming up have potential?
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I'm not sure if that's a safe argument to make. Just because there's room (and maybe an audience) doesn't necessarily mean that the scene will develop.
Look at World of Tanks; incredible large casual audience, no scene, no viewership.
Plenty of examples in many genres that reflect a similar outcome.
It's not a question of market value/place, it's if there is proper fundamental support and development both from developers and from the core game development itself.
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The difference, WHOS' asking for World of tanks tournaments? Who's putting them on? No one. There's no one talking about WoT like people are for Overwatch. There's no esports orgs that have even touched WoT. There's 0 hype or competitive interest around it. There's a big difference there.
That's why I say, I'm sure it's not going to be an A-tier esport, but C or B Tier is almost guaranteed at this point.
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On March 19 2016 20:06 Gorsameth wrote:Ehm, you folks know that World of Tanks does have tournaments right? http://eu.wgleague.net/
The idea isn't "Does x have tournaments" its how robust the scene is, like, are there many third party people putting on tournaments? Or is it 100% subsidized by the company?
Like compare how many organizers WANT to do Dota, CS:GO tournaments compared to how many orgs love to put on WoT tournaments.
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Not sure about tournaments but WoT has been hugely popular on twitch for years, constantly hitting the top 10.
It also has some pretty big youtubers that always make videos of it.
I do prefer War Thunder myself though, but trust me WoT is still pretty damn big.
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I feel like a compariosn with WoT is kinda insulting to Overwatch.
That is a game people like my father play that generally dont play games.
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Is there a channel where everyone plays?
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On March 19 2016 15:15 lestye wrote:
The difference, WHOS' asking for World of tanks tournaments? Who's putting them on? No one. There's no one talking about WoT like people are for Overwatch. There's no esports orgs that have even touched WoT. There's 0 hype or competitive interest around it. There's a big difference there.
That's why I say, I'm sure it's not going to be an A-tier esport, but C or B Tier is almost guaranteed at this point.
WoT has kept a very large player base that is willing to keep spending serious money on it despite the game being 6 years old. I don't know if there are any big name sponsors behind WoT tournaments but who cares -- if anything, I would rather have a competitive scene that is funded by the playerbase than outside sponsors. Just because Adidas doesn't sponsor your tournaments doesn't mean the scene isn't "healthy" or that nobody cares about your game. A lot of big name esports teams have WoT divisions, too.
I mean, Wargaming has grown from what was barely more than a basement office into a massive company with like a dozen offices and a bunch of projects released / in the works pretty much off the back of WoT's success.
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On March 20 2016 09:57 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2016 15:15 lestye wrote:
The difference, WHOS' asking for World of tanks tournaments? Who's putting them on? No one. There's no one talking about WoT like people are for Overwatch. There's no esports orgs that have even touched WoT. There's 0 hype or competitive interest around it. There's a big difference there.
That's why I say, I'm sure it's not going to be an A-tier esport, but C or B Tier is almost guaranteed at this point. WoT has kept a very large player base that is willing to keep spending serious money on it despite the game being 6 years old. I don't know if there are any big name sponsors behind WoT tournaments but who cares -- if anything, I would rather have a competitive scene that is funded by the playerbase than outside sponsors. Just because Adidas doesn't sponsor your tournaments doesn't mean the scene isn't "healthy" or that nobody cares about your game. A lot of big name esports teams have WoT divisions, too. I mean, Wargaming has grown from what was barely more than a basement office into a massive company with like a dozen offices and a bunch of projects released / in the works pretty much off the back of WoT's success.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM.
What sponsors do mean is that the audience and interest is big enough for sponsors to invest in the organizer to put on a great tournament.
That's mostly for "professional" esports, there are plenty of competittive game with like 0 viewerbase, doesn't mean it's not competitive or whatever, it just means it' doesnt have an audience to be "professional".
and back to Wargaming, the game is incredibly sucessful, there's no dispute in that. However, all the tournaments are put on aren't by the communtiy, it's just Wargaming writing a blank check.
Sure most companies nowadays help the scene, but in WoT's case they're just throwing money at esports for the sake of it when there is not really an audience for professional WoT.
That's why I bring up organizers, and how many people are actually participating in running tournaments
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I know its in closed beta so this is prolly last on their priority list: but i really wish they added a penalty for leavers. today was a huge shit fest. more than half the games i join are already lost cause im taking up the leavers spots.
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On March 20 2016 14:27 Emnjay808 wrote:
I know its in closed beta so this is prolly last on their priority list: but i really wish they added a penalty for leavers. today was a huge shit fest. more than half the games i join are already lost cause im taking up the leavers spots.
think there will be penalty if / when they release a competitive ranked mode
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On March 19 2016 13:15 Excalibur_Z wrote:I don't really see the connection here, because tournaments can and do exist (and thrive!) outside of the official ranked play framework for a game. Brood War's innate ranked play was so broken that nobody used it, and yet that game commanded one of the most successful esports structures in history. Some studios who manage their own competitive tournament scenes do use their own rankings as qualifications or for seeding, but there are plenty of community-run competitions that do not. Player communities can grow either way.
it helps if you have good ranked play; i'm just explaining why i have no clue if it'll be a success. i have limited information to go on. also, what is Torte De Lini's definition of "success"?
lots of games had lousy ranked play in 2000. communities took it upon themselves in that era. and they still can today, in today's era, it is easier if ranked play is well done.
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Been having a total blast playing in closed beta over the last few weeks. If anyone here is looking to group up for some premades on NA, add me! My battletag is TheRealQuaid#11268
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Based on the Tim Morten interview it appears all 6 Blizzard titles now run in a "software as a service" business model. That includes Overwatch. I'm excited for the launch of the game; i'm just as excited to see what Blizzard's Overwatch team comes up with over the next year as they continue to add to the Overwatch experience.
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