EPT
patch on sep. 2'nd.
[wow] Warlords of Draenor - Page 568
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
patch on sep. 2'nd. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:57 Seuss wrote: Depends on what you're saying is "worse". The game itself is overall roughly about as good as it's always been (better here, not as good there, etc.), what's "worse" is player retention. With all obstacles streamlined, all content accessible outside of a guild, and all servers effectively merged there's not much reason to actually get to know people anymore. That's important for player retention, because multiplayer games tend to hold attention longer when players have and play with friends. I don't believe it's a coincidence that as Blizzard has streamlined the necessity of friends out of the game that subscription numbers have dropped. I feel that it also has quite a bit to do with the state of online gaming at the moment. With Mobas becoming the multiplayer juggernaut, MMOs feel like they're taking a back seat. Not to say that the player pool for Mobas and MMOs are the same and that everyone will only choose one or the other, but for people with limited time but who are interested in multiplayer online games, they do often end up choosing one or the other to spend time on. And for lots of people, the MMO style doesn't fit. I've never felt that WoW was losing most of their players to other MMOs, but rather to other multiplayer games in similar but different genres. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22610 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:02 Requizen wrote: I feel that it also has quite a bit to do with the state of online gaming at the moment. With Mobas becoming the multiplayer juggernaut, MMOs feel like they're taking a back seat. Not to say that the player pool for Mobas and MMOs are the same and that everyone will only choose one or the other, but for people with limited time but who are interested in multiplayer online games, they do often end up choosing one or the other to spend time on. And for lots of people, the MMO style doesn't fit. I've never felt that WoW was losing most of their players to other MMOs, but rather to other multiplayer games in similar but different genres. Indeed, The other MMO's simply are not big enough to account for WoW's losses. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:18 Gorsameth wrote: Indeed, The other MMO's simply are not big enough to account for WoW's losses. Isn't that Final Fantasy MMO on track to overtake WoW on subscribers very soon? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22610 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:23 Cyro wrote: Isn't that Final Fantasy MMO on track to overtake WoW on subscribers very soon? A look around the web seems to bring up numbers ranging between 500k and 1.5mil I think its safe to say they are a good long distance away yet. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
On August 20 2015 00:17 Ayaz2810 wrote: Maybe a lot of tanks quit? I was a tank, as were 4 RL friends. None of us play anymore. Anecdotal evidence ftw huehuehue. They just massively buffed the rewards for satchel. It gives like 1k gold per dungeon now. The call to arms is actually on healer/DPS at the moment because the amount of tanks queuing spiked so hard  A ton of bind to account Baleful gear too. Just got into a heroic as call to arms DPS. Every boss is dieing in 7-10 seconds, is hilarious :D | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:51 bo1b wrote: Blaming mobas for people un-subscribing when the game itself is so unrewarding to play is a bit weird tbh It's not blame, it's an observation. Not all people who are leaving are going to Mobas, but it's a non-zero number, and a substantial one at that considering how big DOTA2 and LoL are. Half my guild and IRL friends quit and started playing LoL after/during Firelands, and didn't come back until some time during Mists - and even then at a very reduced amount. The pick up and play nature of the game appealed after the long grind of an MMO. I think in some way that has a small amount to do with the streamlining of endgame content. They know that there are so many options out there that offer a multiplayer experience where you get to see most if not all of the content right away, and not all 12 million of their peak subscribers want to do the grind portion of it. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
and not all 12 million of their peak subscribers want to do the grind portion of it. on the contrary i think most of the 12 mill players want some element of grind rather than seeing/doing all of the content on day 1 and being bored for a year. Classic-WOTLK provided that for my new (leveling and such) and other friends getting into group content and raiding - the current game just doesn't have it | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:00 Cyro wrote: on the contrary i think most of the 12 mill players want some element of grind rather than seeing/doing all of the content on day 1 and being bored for a year Doubtful. The amount of people who saw endgame content in Vanilla/BC/Wrath was pretty low, and that's the timeframe that everyone has nostalgia glasses for endgame content. If people loved the grind so much, you'd have a lot more people who saw Illidan or at least the inside of BT before Sunwell came out. Despite what you may think if you spend time around raiders, other types of players exist. Not everyone gets on every day to do dailies to get stuff to go in and raid for 15+ hours a week. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Waaaaaaaaaaaaay more people saw endgame content in WOTLK - with Naxx, OS and VOA being on the easy side and 5 mans providing catchup and gear, more people got into raiding than ever before. Not just by a bit, there was a huge wave of people starting raiding for the first time in wrath. Despite what you may think if you spend time around raiders, other types of players exist. Not everyone gets on every day to do dailies to get stuff to go in and raid for 15+ hours a week. Clearing HFC takes 4 hours, not 15. Actually pretty much nobody raids 15 hours a week aside from the hyper competitive guilds; there are many mythic progression guilds doing 6-9 hours. You're going from one extreme to the other. Clearing an entire raid on release day/week is very bad. 99% of players never clearing a raid is bad. I think this should really be obvious to everyone by now, the solution is somewhere in between. A model that's a little bit too grindy with a bit too high difficulty is better for subscriber retention than one that only takes a short amount of time and is too easy - and the reason should also be obvious, it's way more fun to play over a 6-14 month period no matter your skill level. Everyone at every level needs a carrot on a stick, MMO's have always abused that (and community), it's most of their reason for existing. If the top 30% of the playerbase eats all of the carrots on launch week and everyone else within a month or two, there is no longer any value. They try to use stuff like gear progression as carrots, but that's also less valuable than ever before with the hyperinflation and complete gear resets every 2 tiers now. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
I agree that there needs to be some balance hit. But I'm not a game dev so I can't really put my input as to what that exactly means. If I had my preference, I'd love to see more spread out content, where it's not just one raid per tier and instead you could go to multiple raids depending on how you were feeling and what kind of fights your Guild was good at. You always see that in the first tier per expansion and then they just kinda give up on it. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22610 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:31 Ayaz2810 wrote: I had a great time farming ICC trash while "real" raiders were getting world firsts and clearing wings. I don't know why the "I want everything now" crowd is the demographic blizzard is catering too. If I play 2 hours 3-4 days a week instead of 8 hours 5 days a week, I should expect to progress slower. So what if I don't see the lich king until a few weeks or a couple months before the next content patch? Why is that such a bad thing these days? And I love the people who go "I'm all grown up. I don't have time". Fuck off. You're telling me you can't dredge up a couple hours on a weekday night and a few more hours on maybe a Saturday night? Bulllllshiiiiiit. I'm 32, work full time, am taking 5 university classes, have 2 kids, and I'm engaged. Guess what? If I wanted to raid, I could figure it out. You can too. Those arguments are so old and wrong. If they would just revert to normal/heroic raids and add a bunch of quality outdoor content/5 mans, we would see 10m subs again. Again its not about seeing content (outside of maybe LFR) Normal/Heroic/Mythic exists to keep guilds progressing because they quit if they hit to big a wall. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:38 Gorsameth wrote: Again its not about seeing content (outside of maybe LFR) Normal/Heroic/Mythic exists to keep guilds progressing because they quit if they hit to big a wall. I'd like to see blizzards data on that. I remember wiping on 25m professor putricide literally more times than I can be bothered to count. Our guild was a ragtag group of real raiders who formed a 10 man group who downed LK and started on HC, and the rest were friends and guild scrubs. We died......so much. But we didn't quit. We were having fun. I find it really hard to believe that people will wipe 20 times and be like fuck this I'm done. That would just be crazy to me. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Normal/Heroic/Mythic exists to keep guilds progressing because they quit if they hit to big a wall. I'd support it more if we didn't have extreme gear scaling serving the same purpose. Multiple things that have detrimental effects in order to solve 1 problem isn't that good | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22610 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:47 Cyro wrote: I'd support it more if we didn't have extreme gear scaling serving the same purpose. Multiple things that have detrimental effects in order to solve 1 problem isn't that good The gear scaling this expansion has indeed been retarded. They were warned during beta and ignored it | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
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nimbim
Germany986 Posts
[...]If the top 30% of the playerbase eats all of the carrots on launch week there is no longer joy or purpose. That's just not how it is. I don't know about PvP, from what I hear it's pretty awful. However, in PvE I don't understand how you can reach that conclusion. Currently we have exactly the "in between" solution you are talking about. Every noob can clear LFR, if you are moderately competent at the most basic requirements of playing you can clear normals and the progression goes on to doing mythic fights, which get more difficult the deeper you go into the raid. There is always something to aspire to, unless you are in the top 0,2% who clear mythic in the first 2 weeks. In HFC they went even further with the gear progression there. If you can't clear a certain difficulty yet, you will still get some upgrades if you finally get 9/12 after a while because of the +5 itemlvl every x bosses and getting your BiS gear will take months because those items obviously come from the bosses with the highest itemlvl drops. The development focus has been on PvE endgame for a long long time and it's the only reason that I and everyone I know plays WoW. I think you are clearly in the minority if you actually want to do dailies and other tedious crap like running to a class trainer for skills. The playerbase of WoW consists largely of people who have already leveled a bunch of characters and the majority don't want a lengthy leveling experience. If you miss grinding quests for 2months to level a character then you are also clearly in the minority IMO. Grinding is out of fashion. I have grinded countless hours in Lineage2 when I was in school, but now I have other interests and responsibilites. Just for example, I "need" the re-usable rune for mythic progress, but I still haven't gotten past revered because grinding dailies is so insanely boring to me and everyone I know hates doing them just as much as I do. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
There is always something to aspire to You assume that a fourth difficulty is fun/inspiring when it falls short. Having a raid layout with easier and harder bosses (like say maybe you're not as good/geared, so you can only clear fire wing but have to progress for a month on ice wing) is a much better solution for longevity than making every boss reduced to X difficulty for the players that couldn't kill the ice wing on launch weeks. I think you are clearly in the minority if you actually want to do dailies and other tedious crap like running to a class trainer for skills. I don't think so. Being able to spend time enjoying content that's not in a raid (be it world content like the netherwing island, sunwell isle, good dungeons or something different like leveling) is important to a lot of people. The log in - raid - log out mentality makes any MMO boring fast. It happened a lot in Wildstar too and once you fall into that cycle you will just get more bored and demotivated to do anything. The focus has been mostly on PVE for a long time - however in the past, PVE for 99% of players (and then 90, then 70% etc over a long period of time) was NOT log in, raid, log out - it was other stuff. Leveling - Group/daily content - 5-mans etc. As an extreme example, if the game was just a system where you picked a class+spec and got given a max level char with template gear and spawned in the raid with no way to leave it, it wouldn't have become great. That used to be a niche in the corner of WoW. It needed to expand more - raiding is great - but it went way, way too far at the expense of all other content. Grinding is out of fashion Gating stuff is the difference between having a carrot on a stick in front of you and having a memory of eating a carrot 3 months ago. Grinding is a bad gate but it's way, way better than the alternative - nothing - if they can't come up with a better system. | ||
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