[wow] Warlords of Draenor - Page 566

On August 19 2015 20:24 lestye wrote:


WoW was literally built as EQ for casuals. The game's peak subscriber count is because they catered Wrath to casuals.

On August 19 2015 13:38 Elurie wrote:


lololol. I haven't played WoW for 5 years, but I think this is true for all MMOs that uses automated group finder. People nowadays are just too lazy to put together their own dungeon groups, and will votekick the weirdo who dare to say "Hey guys, how's everyone doing tonight?"

On August 19 2015 20:24 lestye wrote:


WoW was literally built as EQ for casuals. The game's peak subscriber count is because they catered Wrath to casuals.

On August 19 2015 07:41 lestye wrote:
Not really. There's an argument then barely anyone saw the content. Why do they bother making raids if only like 5% of their customers see the content? There were tons of people on my server who never killed Kael going into Wrath of the Lich King, let alone the tiers of content after that.

On August 19 2015 22:40 Seuss wrote:


I always hated that argument. It was and still is a red herring, and I'm speaking as someone who never killed Kael.

"Seeing the content" is a measurement that matters to Blizzard's money-counters; it only matters to players insofar as they feel they're missing out. So long as those players are progressing and aren't stuck it doesn't matter, they have content they're consuming and something to shoot for.

Both getting stuck and consumption numbers are problems that don't require gear resets every tier to solve. The primary problem with serial/sequential tiers is guild poaching. That's a much more difficult problem to solve, and arguably worse than the sum of all the problems with the current system.

But seriously, it really sucked in WotLK when my terrible guild would be 3/4ths of the way through a raid tier and suddenly everything we'd done was meaningless because the next tier was out.

On August 19 2015 08:30 Gorsameth wrote:
Again, saying Normal/Heroic don't need to be both exist ignores the level of skill the average player has.
Lets go to Wowprogress again. 60% of guilds on Wowprogress has not killed a single boss in HC HFC.
60% are playing in a difficulty you want to scrap because " its to easy". That is not good business.
As for the tediousness of killing the same boss on multiple difficulties. Maybe its me but is there really much difference between killing Gorefiend for 5 months or killing Normal Gorefiend for 3 months and then killing Heroic Gorefiend for 3 months? (other then the obvious 1 month i put in there to account for a guild even getting to him in the first place),

On August 19 2015 11:39 Cyro wrote:
Since the player base went approximately ~10m to ~5m in 7 months, i made a bunch of friends coming into WOD and lost them all. Like, literally all of them. I've gone through six guild disbands in 13 months, two in another MMO and now four of them in WOD.

On August 19 2015 22:40 Seuss wrote:


I always hated that argument. It was and still is a red herring, and I'm speaking as someone who never killed Kael.

"Seeing the content" is a measurement that matters to Blizzard's money-counters; it only matters to players insofar as they feel they're missing out. So long as those players are progressing and aren't stuck it doesn't matter, they have content they're consuming and something to shoot for.

Both getting stuck and consumption numbers are problems that don't require gear resets every tier to solve. The primary problem with serial/sequential tiers is guild poaching. That's a much more difficult problem to solve, and arguably worse than the sum of all the problems with the current system.

But seriously, it really sucked in WotLK when my terrible guild would be 3/4ths of the way through a raid tier and suddenly everything we'd done was meaningless because the next tier was out.

On August 19 2015 23:00 Acrofales wrote:

I agree that this was a problem in Wrath. Wrath was fun, but there was absolutely no reason to go back into Ulduar after the Trial of the Crusader was released, whereas Ulduar was both harder and far more interesting than ToC: the gear was strictly worse, so nobody ever ran it again (except for achievement runs). That has been the "raid model" ever since.

Vanilla got this balance quite a lot better, despite having some absolutely terrible raid ideas (drop your epics and wear shitty green fire resistance gear, or having a boss which is immune to everything except frost damage), but there was no way a guild was doing much in BWL without having progressed well in MC and killed Onyxia. And there was a decent difficulty overlap: the first few bosses in BWL were tuned in difficulty to be about on par with Ragnaros; the first few bosses in AQ40 to be about on par with Nefarian, and most of Naxx was actually easier than C'thun.

Even BC's attunements ensured that previous level raids were a necessity for completion. I actually think attunement is a great idea, although something more lenient than BC would hit the sweet spot. I enjoyed the quests, although some were too long (Onyxia), and imho it should attune all the account's characters to prevent tediously having to repeat it for every single alt. Early Wrath's hard mode unlocking was also by far the most interesting idea for "heroic" difficulty they have had.

But due to the pugging system if you're not a mythic guild people have very little reason to stay with you guild wise while with sequential raiding you could really only poach from the guild directly below you and lets face it thats always going to happen.

But for WoD, they decided to make "newHeroic" scalable too and missed the opportunity to combine the two. It would be perfectly fine with Lfr -> Scalable "newHeroic" -> "newMythic", the way it was ever since Lich King

On August 19 2015 23:37 Gorsameth wrote:

I dont get this. So yes you can pug Heroic. How does that increase poaching? If anything it would mean there are more players with the gear for Mythic but without a guild which would reduce poaching.

In a way your still having sequential raiding. A mythic guild is (often) not going to recruit normal mode players, they want high level Heroic/Mythic players. The guilds just below them, like has always been the case and indeed something that is (near) impossible to remove.


This is where we differ, Blizzard has the data, we can have it if we spend an insane amount of time studying Wowprogress.
They know how many people got stuck and quit in the old system and I assume they made LFR easier and staggered the difficulty in the way they did because their numbers showed a need to further flatten the difficulty curve.

Normal/Heroic/Mythic is not there to show everyone the end boss. It is there so that there is always a boss that you can progress on and succeed in a reasonable amount of time.
If the time to down a new boss is to long people quit so if your running into a wall on Normal Mannaroth you can go for the first few bosses on Heroic instead and gain more gear to help you get past him at a later date.

On August 19 2015 22:55 Drazerk wrote:


TBH I'd say guild poaching is much worse these days. I admit I am the culprit given I'm in literally the best guild on my server and we openly steal people from lower down guilds from many servers (which is another issue completely). But due to the pugging system if you're not a mythic guild people have very little reason to stay with you guild wise while with sequential raiding you could really only poach from the guild directly below you and lets face it thats always going to happen.

On August 19 2015 23:26 Drazerk wrote:
Personally having a longish attunement for the first raid of the expansion (Onyxia / Karazhan) is fine and tbh it should probably exist just to pad out the expansion. After that requiring to have done the previous tier on LFR / Normal or to do a quest line (Like actually build the harbour to do HFC for instance (Something i've still not done) is also fine attunement wise for the next tier. Don't really need anything more extreme than that

Also literally everything was easier than release Cthun. That shit was bullshit

On August 19 2015 20:58 Drazerk wrote:

And yet even WOTLK had content to keep people busy because the difficulty wasn't too easy.

WOTLK had 3-4 daily zones then the argent tournament
Wintergrasp
No LFG function until 3.2
Hard modes that were enabled during the fight rather than the simple toggle we have now.
Immortal achievements / Trial of the grand crusader (insanity)
Badge system to keep 5 mans relevant
Actual thought out professions

The issue isn't that WoD is too easy the issue is WoD is too easy so the content dried up quicker. WoD is a bad expansion because it has literally nothing to do and what little it does have can be experienced by doing a quick 3-4 hour normal run pub without talking to anyone.

On August 19 2015 23:49 Ayaz2810 wrote:


I'll keep pointing to the lfg/lfr function as the one thing that has brought wow to where it is today. I vividly remember when it was introduced. I was in dalaran and I wanted to run whatever the dungeon was there. The prison place. So I opened up the lfg thing and got a group. I remember it being one of the first times I ran a dungeon that had no guild members or rl friends in it. I was on my tankadin so I got in instantly, and I distinctly remember thinking that the feature was crappy. I think by that time I was rocking a lot of t10 and heroic 5 man's were trivial. Now in those kinds of dungeons with friends and guildies, you would have people joking and fucking around, or chain pulling, or having the rogue tank for luls, or just letting people die so you can laugh at them. There was something else unrelated or semi related to the dungeon itself that kept you entertained. What did I get in my first run? Damn near silence and a horrible druid healer. I remember that too because we exchanged some very unpleasant words. Lfd/lfr was the beginning of the end. And you know what's funny? If those features had never been introduced, I can almost guarantee we would be heralding WoD as one of the best expansions to date. Maybe not the best at launch, but in its current state, with vibrant server communities, we would be happy. I'm so fucking salty about that.

On August 19 2015 23:54 Gorsameth wrote:

"I did an instance with randoms and it was less fun then doing it with friends" is that the fault of the tool you used or is it a simple consequence of you not asking your friends to come?
Would you have gotten the same shitty healer if you yelled in General? or would you have only gone with a friend healer? If so why didnt you queue with that friend?