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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On August 20 2015 00:14 daemir wrote: What the actual...12 minute queue to 5mans as a tank, when tank call to arms is active?... Maybe a lot of tanks quit? I was a tank, as were 4 RL friends. None of us play anymore. Anecdotal evidence ftw huehuehue. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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nimbim
Germany983 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 19 2015 20:24 lestye wrote: WoW was literally built as EQ for casuals. The game's peak subscriber count is because they catered Wrath to casuals. What an incredibly accurate viewing of things. The incredible casualifaction began immediately after wrath, the only real thing that was taken out of wrath was back clearing raids for new gear, and that was after ulduar, which iirc was only just behind the end of wrath in peak subscribers. In any event wrath was probably the biggest increase in skill required across the entire games life in both pvp and pve, was incredibly, incredibly competitive, and until toc was still a grind to get the top. Comparing it to everquest is dishonest as it gets since wow has so much more going for it then eq - like the difference in raiding in eq and in wow is staggering. But since you seem to have conflated time consuming with difficult, let me tell you what I mean by catering to casuals: -The garrisons, and everything in them, have completely removed the need to do any farming at all. -Gold is now just about worthless -Most classes have a 3-4 button rotation -Pvp is well and truly dead after the series of awful decisions made to make things easier in raiding well and truly affected pvp -LFR/LFD has gutted any sense of community -Outside of cosmetic items (mounts, transmog) there is literally nothing to go farming for. All progression must be done in the raids instance, and all progression is stifled to a 2 month schedule per path per legendary -Classes have never been easier to play, contrasted dramatically with raiding has never been more difficult at the top end until your raid passes a gear threshold then its suddenly ridiculously easy -Like every other "every ones a winner" (see the 2006 time person of the year for another failure of that kind) legendaries for everyone with 0 uniqueness makes them rather un-legendary. -The talent tree system is so much worse then the old one that I (anecdotal evidence) know 4 people who've quit over that alone -The removal of all class quests (warlock pets, shaman totems, druid form quests etc) have made people I know quit -The removal of buying you're own skills have made people I know quit -The way it's possible to buy a new account, get to level 100 within a week, and in the next week have seen all the content in the game have made people who quit, resubscribe for a month when a new patch comes out, then quit again. -Portals fucking everywhere, leading from a garrison to a city that you spend maybe 25 seconds travelling to the next portal. Why even have the rest of the game? You can get from 90-100 in like 5 hours Also comparing one game dumbing itself down to another game being more difficult then it is stupid. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
So long as those players are progressing and aren't stuck it doesn't matter, they have content they're consuming and something to shoot for. They're not comsuming and shooting for anything though, they cleared all the bosses already (unlike in classic-4.2) | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 20 2015 03:03 Cyro wrote: They're not comsuming and shooting for anything though, they cleared all the bosses already (unlike in classic-4.2) It might not have been clear from the post itself, but I was hearkening back to when that argument first popped up (i.e. BC). Back then I never ran out of content. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
There will always be players who consume the content faster than Blizzard can put it out, but I'd argue those players should be a small minority. In terms of the player base as a whole, the balance point for the two extremes you've listed should be way over on the "never run out of content" side. | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On August 19 2015 20:58 Drazerk wrote: And yet even WOTLK had content to keep people busy because the difficulty wasn't too easy. WOTLK had 3-4 daily zones then the argent tournament Wintergrasp No LFG function until 3.2 Hard modes that were enabled during the fight rather than the simple toggle we have now. Immortal achievements / Trial of the grand crusader (insanity) Badge system to keep 5 mans relevant Actual thought out professions The issue isn't that WoD is too easy the issue is WoD is too easy so the content dried up quicker. WoD is a bad expansion because it has literally nothing to do and what little it does have can be experienced by doing a quick 3-4 hour normal run pub without talking to anyone. The toggle was implemented mid WOTLK, along with LFG and subs kept going up. I don't think Toggle or LFG had a detrimental effect on guilds and the game. Wintergrasp was super laggy for a huge chunk of Wrath. I remember we couldnt try for Immortal during Wintergrasp on Tuesdays because it would destroy us. Bad times.... And pretty much all the dailies absolutely sucked and were pointless in Wrath except frost giant dailies which you needed for shoulder enchants. ( I do think they should bring those back) There's a weird balance that they haven't gotten right with dailies as of late. They went super ham on dailies on MoP and it turned everyone off. No dailies in WoD and we're bored out of our goddam minds. Yeah, their stance on dungeons was completely stupid for WoD.. Literally the only point of dungeons is get Aviana's Wings and the legendary ring. I do agree with your last statement, there's overall nothing to do in WoD which is why it's by far the worst expansion. On August 20 2015 00:52 bo1b wrote: -Classes have never been easier to play, contrasted dramatically with raiding has never been more difficult at the top end until your raid passes a gear threshold then its suddenly ridiculously easy -The talent tree system is so much worse then the old one that I (anecdotal evidence) know 4 people who've quit over that alone -The removal of all class quests (warlock pets, shaman totems, druid form quests etc) have made people I know quit -The removal of buying you're own skills have made people I know quit -Portals fucking everywhere, leading from a garrison to a city that you spend maybe 25 seconds travelling to the next portal. Why even have the rest of the game? You can get from 90-100 in like 5 hours I think the current talent tree is way better than the old one. The only one was always super cookie cutter for me. "Hey go down this tree and skip the PVP talents" And classes are harder to play. Have you played a Destro warlock in Wrath, warlocks and rogues general in BC, ele shamans in general, all those are historically way easier than today. Ret paladins, enhance shamans, they've all been historically easy. I think the only legitimate hard specs in Wrath were probably pre-Ulduar Afflcition warlocks, and feral druids. I might be missing something obviously hard that may make me look stupid, but those are the one that I easily remember being difficult. The removal of buying your own skills have made people quit? Really? Of all the reasons to quit that's the dumbest one I've heard. I didn't like having to go back to town and buy spells. It ruined my pacing. I don't know how I feel about class quests. Obviously I wish there were new ones, but a problem that WoW in general has, is catching people up with levelling, which was one of your other points. A problem with WoW levelling is that the game is so old, that no one is levelling right now. If I had started WoW in Cata onwards, I think I would have quit because the game feels completely dead because everyone is in end-game. That's why you have shit like battle boosts because there's no one to play with because everyone's in end-game. You level so fast right now, it's kinda be awkward to do class quests because of the pacing. Hopefully their implementation in Legion wont suck. I do agree with your assessment with Portals, I think. There needs to be more reasons to be out in the world doing something. I remember in Wrath my guild leader had the same issue. He said that if there was 1 place in all of Northerend like in the Storm Peaks or something that was the only place to repair, he would 100% support that because that encourages people to be somewhere outside Org/Dalaran. And that's something I do believe needs to be worked on, is getting people to go out somewhere doing shit. Maybe not farming for nature resist or like, when you had to go to Scholo to craft flasks, but something somewhere in that nature that's not too awful that encourages you to go out in the world and perhaps interact with people. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
The removal of buying your own skills have made people quit? Really? Of all the reasons to quit that's the dumbest one I've heard. I didn't like having to go back to town and buy spells. It ruined my pacing. It's just one of the things on the long list of stuff they did to make level 1-90 completely irrelevant | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:07 Cyro wrote: It's just one of the things on the long list of stuff they did to make level 1-90 completely irrelevant What the hell? How does that make it irrelevant? I was grateful that I no longer had to walk back to town to spend gold to go back and use things. Who seriously was like "oh man I get to keep playing the game instead of doing something asinine? FUCK THAT NOISE I QUIT". | ||
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Clues
United States186 Posts
I've always played WoW to raid, that's been my primary focus. I've stopped playing when I couldn't commit to the 3 days a week my guild would raid. As the game has aged so have I, and simply can't give the same three nights to this game every week. But Premade finder has saved me this expansion. I can raid when and how I want with the only time demands being my own. I've got AotCs and great gear all on my timeline. It simply can't be beat. If I only have an hour I can apply for several groups running the boss(s) I want and see what happens. Sure it doesn't always work out but I tend to learn something even on the wipes. It has been a godsend. This of course coupled with the removal of strict lockouts and only boss level loot lockouts (such a great idea). I lead a small group of friends in Premade runs as well. They aren't as active in the game as I am so being able to get into other Premades during the week satiates my need to raid and doesn't tie me to my friend group. Sure in MoP you could] do dailies but they were souless and terribly boring, I think the clearest evidence they weren't well liked is their absence from WoD. On the flip side I think Tanaan did a decent job balancing several activites a day/week that were doable with some actual rewards. In general I like that the bar to raiding has been dropped. The lack of so many enchants and potions simplifys the prep needed to even step into a raid but the content itself is still challenging. There are a ton of movement demands on raiders now that simply didn't exist in expansions past. Something like Xhul'Thrac is simply hard until everyone understands and can execute the right strategy. For me Normals are great for learning encounters with plenty of room for mistakes that can be overcome with gear. Heroic turns the difficulty up a fair bit by making the mechanics more punishing. Xhul'Thrac can no longer be overhealed when people don't kick imps or move from voidfiends, the raid just dies. I think they've got a good balance between skill and preperation when it comes to the current raids. Classes have been simplified but with the added movement, both to keep on target and to avoid damage, along with the multiple mob demands of current fights the challenge becomes doing the right thing as you go in and out of combat range and swap targets. I know this isn't trivial because I can easily see the difference between a player with experience and some doofus in LFR. Sure my feral rotation can be summed up with a few rules, but staying out of energy starvation and avoiding a bad ferocious bite while also making sure I'm on the right target and dodging some raid damage ability isn't a joke. I've also got several abilities that can be intelligently used, like stampeding roar, that can really help the raid and help show my mastery of the class. I don't agree that because the game is less social its worse. Randomly grouping with idiots on my server through trade chat was never better than the current system. Way back in vanilla you might find a guild that ran constant 5 mans because doing so manually was a nightmare. But those days are long gone, way before premade really became a thing. I get my dose of other wow players in raids with voice comm. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
What the hell? How does that make it irrelevant? I was grateful that I no longer had to walk back to town to spend gold to go back and use things. Who seriously was like "oh man I get to keep playing the game instead of doing something asinine? FUCK THAT NOISE I QUIT". It's part of the difference between the average player being somebody doing the leveling experience to the mindset of "skip to latest expansion ASAP" when the latest expansion doesn't have that much to do, trivalizing all previous content isn't the best idea. It's not about removing class trainers. It's about class trainers being tedious when level 1-30 takes a matter of hours, not days/weeks. | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:24 Cyro wrote: It's the difference between the average player being somebody doing the leveling experience to the mindset of "skip to latest expansion ASAP" when the latest expansion doesn't have that much to do, trivalizing all previous content isn't the best idea. It's unreasonble to expect them to make a whole new game every 1.5 years for everyone to do everything in but not unreasonable to keep the leveling experience. I agree it was super shit this particular expansion, but I think it was still the right thing to do. Having to mill 1-90 when all your friends are 100 doing end-game stuff, and that's probably the biggest thing because the game is so old. It's ALL about the end-game now. So that aspect was OK, although the end result was bad. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20275 Posts
I agree it was super shit this particular expansion, but I think it was still the right thing to do. Having to mill 1-90 when all your friends are 100 doing end-game stuff, and that's probably the biggest thing because the game is so old. It's ALL about the end-game now. But 1-100 is faster than 1-60 or 1-70. You can be faster earlier on i think, but the zones are NOT designed for it. The dungeon experience is not really designed for it either. We have a weird band-aid system for leveling 1-90 that's both faster than ever by a mile and less fun that ever. I've leveled chars through classic, tbc, wotlk and WOD from start to level cap and damn did they ruin it. It's something to get over with in a day or two while drunk, not something you do casually for weeks-months at a time for fun - because it's not fun, at all. I was never an altaholic but i always enjoyed leveling until after the break i took @patch 4.2 | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:32 Cyro wrote: But 1-100 is faster than 1-60 or 1-70. You can be faster earlier on i think, but the zones are NOT designed for it. The dungeon experience is not really designed for it either. We have a weird band-aid system for leveling 1-90 that's both faster than ever by a mile and less fun that ever. I've leveled chars through classic, tbc, wotlk and WOD from start to level cap and damn did they ruin it. It's something to get over with in a day or two while drunk, not something you do casually for weeks-months at a time for fun - because it's not fun, at all. I was never an altaholic but i always enjoyed leveling until after the break i took @patch 4.2 You had tons of people levelling during 1-60 and 1-70. That's my point. Right now if I started levelling, the game would feel absolutely dead. They want you at 100 because thats where all the players are. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17831 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:41 lestye wrote: You had tons of people levelling during 1-60 and 1-70. That's my point. Right now if I started levelling, the game would feel absolutely dead. They want you at 100 because thats where all the players are. Then why not let you start all your characters at 90? Apparently they do want you leveling, but have screwed up the system for no apparent reason. | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:47 Acrofales wrote: Then why not let you start all your characters at 90? Apparently they do want you leveling, but have screwed up the system for no apparent reason. What are you talking about? The leveling process is super great right now. Smooth, zones are fun post-cata, getting milestones feels good, all the classes feel good to level (compare to Vanilla and BC Paladins, which was literally auto attack while you make a sandwich). If anything's making the leveling process feel super fast and "marginalized" or whatever, it's all the heirlooms and other exp bonuses from Guilds and what not. Forcing someone to run back to a City to spend money on an ability doesn't add to the leveling experience at all. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21339 Posts
Most MMO's don't live long enough or see enough expansions where the ever increasing cap becomes a problem but WoW is in that position. I would like to see an MMO that does away with levels all together and replaces it with another system all together that can more easily be reset every expansion. As for the buying skills thing. No its got nothing to do with rushing or whatever claims you fabricate. Being in the middle of questing in a zone and having to take the flightpath back to the capital. spend 20 seconds buying new skills and flying back is pointless and annoying. It does not add immersion or anything usefull to the game other then "in my day we walked up the hill in snow, both ways!" | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:23 Clues wrote: I don't agree that because the game is less social its worse. Randomly grouping with idiots on my server through trade chat was never better than the current system. Way back in vanilla you might find a guild that ran constant 5 mans because doing so manually was a nightmare. But those days are long gone, way before premade really became a thing. I get my dose of other wow players in raids with voice comm. Depends on what you're saying is "worse". The game itself is overall roughly about as good as it's always been (better here, not as good there, etc.), what's "worse" is player retention. With all obstacles streamlined, all content accessible outside of a guild, and all servers effectively merged there's not much reason to actually get to know people anymore. That's important for player retention, because multiplayer games tend to hold attention longer when players have and play with friends. I don't believe it's a coincidence that as Blizzard has streamlined the necessity of friends out of the game that subscription numbers have dropped. | ||
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