EPTWarcraft III: The Frozen Throne - Page 195
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany7379 Posts
Curious to see how they follow up this disaster. Do they take it offline, polish it and sell it again? Do they try to patchfix it and hope people will be happy? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On January 30 2020 23:39 NewSunshine wrote: Yeah, this is pretty sad. I was looking forward to this as a chance to hop in and give WC3 a go, having never played it before. This is really disappointing. I've heard hearsay anecdotally that Blizzard is indeed not what they once were, and this just tracks too nicely with that. What even happened here. Blizzard used to be a game maker where I'd pre-order without a hint of hesitation, and was never really disappointed in doing so. That's not usually something I do. But lately, they seem to just not be committed to making their games as great as their legacy implies. This sours my hopes for anything coming down the pike from Blizzard, rather badly. It's a pretty grim trend. It really is sad. What they've done to themselves doesn't even make sense from a business perspective beyond pushing for next-quarter profits years ago A friend of mine installed the recommended warcraft drivers for AMD and after 2 minutes in the game, his Video card started to smoke People reported the same thing often with SC2 and with some other games. It's a hardware problem that just hadn't been exposed before because the hardware was insufficiently tested. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17838 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
 And the worst thing is that you didn't surprised me with a great release like Microsoft with AoE II Definitive Edition and I was kinda expecting it...Sigh | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
Bethesda, BioWare, Blizzard I can see a certain connection but I can't tell what exactly. At the same time I would be very careful if I were in some other companies like Bungie, Bandai Namco or Bohemia Interactive  | ||
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Agh
United States1100 Posts
On January 31 2020 16:47 Starlightsun wrote: It didn't occur to me that they would gut the old version. I thought they would leave that as it's been for all these years. I wasn't interested in reforged but that's really upsetting that they had to destroy the old game. I just read that it deletes everything in your old folder (including custom maps) and replaces it with like 30 gigs of reforged? Wtf? I mean the only thing that really bothers me is being forced to download content that I have no intent on using. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17838 Posts
I mean, even if you want to do so much, why not do it incrementally? Like, release the graphics and UI updates first. When it's fine and stable fix the multiplayer and start playing with other things like crossplay between versions. On January 31 2020 21:48 deacon.frost wrote: In the last 15 months or so, let's list those who failed their fans horribly: Bethesda, BioWare, Blizzard I can see a certain connection but I can't tell what exactly. At the same time I would be very careful if I were in some other companies like Bungie, Bandai Namco or Bohemia Interactive Your list is incomplete though. It's missing EA (Fifa, especially Switch version, Madden), 2K (NBA and WWE), Ubisoft (Ghost Recon), Konami (Contra: Rogue Corps), Microsoft (Crackdown 3). Still, Bethesda got the worst of it with Fallout '76, Rage 2 and Wolfenstein: Youngblood. All super hyped, all super disappointing. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On January 31 2020 22:44 Manit0u wrote: The worst thing is that all they had to do is improve the graphics, revamp the UI slightly and maybe redo the cinematic cutscenes. But no, they went and started changing a lot of other stuff, some of it pretty fundamental. The interplay between old and new could've been nice but I don't think it was ultimately necessary and trying to do it has retroactively broken a game that has been working perfectly for 16 years... I mean, even if you want to do so much, why not do it incrementally? Like, release the graphics and UI updates first. When it's fine and stable fix the multiplayer and start playing with other things like crossplay between versions. They shot themselves in the foot. Or the gut, even. This was an atrocious way to handle things. Even if it was cutting their losses, the thing they put out resulted in a shitload of refunds already, there's no way this was worth it. If it was the Blizzard we all knew and loved, they would've stuck to their guns and made something of it, even if it was at a loss. They cared about the experience of the game above all else. Clearly, something very different happened here. I'm just amazed. It looks like they actually messed up every single thing they possibly could have. As a remaster of an old game, I'm not sure what else they could've done wrong. They destroyed the original and replaced it with something thoroughly broken and incomplete. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On January 31 2020 22:44 Manit0u wrote: The worst thing is that all they had to do is improve the graphics, revamp the UI slightly and maybe redo the cinematic cutscenes. But no, they went and started changing a lot of other stuff, some of it pretty fundamental. The interplay between old and new could've been nice but I don't think it was ultimately necessary and trying to do it has retroactively broken a game that has been working perfectly for 16 years... I mean, even if you want to do so much, why not do it incrementally? Like, release the graphics and UI updates first. When it's fine and stable fix the multiplayer and start playing with other things like crossplay between versions. Your list is incomplete though. It's missing EA (Fifa, especially Switch version, Madden), 2K (NBA and WWE), Ubisoft (Ghost Recon), Konami (Contra: Rogue Corps), Microsoft (Crackdown 3). Still, Bethesda got the worst of it with Fallout '76, Rage 2 and Wolfenstein: Youngblood. All super hyped, all super disappointing. They did do everything u just said, the graphics are better (just not preferable to alot of players because they are extremely use to the classic version its the same thing when wc3 dota was making the transition into dota2 and not just heros but the actual map dodads and terrain people get use to things) the iu is slightly revamped i doubt anyone that plays regularly would be happy with a whole new iu layout a simple icon upgrade is pretty much what they did. The cinematics are in higher quality although not "remade" and would be a huge task even the sc:r scenes didnt get remade. I call bullshit on the fudemental stuff...i play wc3 regularly and enter in mini leagues, i also played the reforged beta 1s and 2s a plenty. The game works fine after all it is just the classic game but with a art covering the new models. Apart from a extremely small amount of visual bugs (which are just simply going to be fixed next patch) eg: wardens inital shadow strike animation cant be easily seen making spell dodging with invuls hard vs that (very niche) the rest of the shadow strike damage over time is well represented. There are tiny things like that...almost inconsequential to gameplay. There are no mechanics that are different from classical. Almost everything has to do with the art over the classical engine (some of the trees art makes it look like ur clicking within the hit box but not) They mentioned the ranked ladder would not be up in the first season way before hand not to mention if anyone was really serious about climbing ladder netease has been the way to go for a long time and they still have their classical wc3 ladder up and running. Ive been running through the campaign and have had zero bugs, no unexpected errors and my laptop is pretty old. People want to complain and find their echo chamber to continue complaining take a break from reddit and just play the game yourself. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27320 Posts
On January 31 2020 22:55 NewSunshine wrote: They shot themselves in the foot. Or the gut, even. This was an atrocious way to handle things. Even if it was cutting their losses, the thing they put out resulted in a shitload of refunds already, there's no way this was worth it. If it was the Blizzard we all knew and loved, they would've stuck to their guns and made something of it, even if it was at a loss. They cared about the experience of the game above all else. Clearly, something very different happened here. I'm just amazed. It looks like they actually messed up every single thing they possibly could have. As a remaster of an old game, I'm not sure what else they could've done wrong. They destroyed the original and replaced it with something thoroughly broken and incomplete. I’m just amazed as to what the decision-making process is. None of these ideas are good on any level. Outside of maybe Nintendo I can’t really think of another huge videogame interest whose name and reputation is such an asset as Blizzard. Until recently enough anyway. Doesn’t mean I think the company was perfect but they have a long history of polish and post-launch support and patching to balance and add content to their games. Warcraft 3 had heroes added post-launch in the era before such things were monetised that both gave us cool content, models and also shifted the multiplayer meta. That goodwill is an asset you do not fuck with because it is far, far harder to regain than it is to lose. What were they thinking? Who was doing the thinking? This isn’t nickle and diming casuals or youngsters with whom the idea of a complete gaming experience without patches is (sadly) a novelty these days. It’s also not releasing some annual franchise game. You’re releasing a game whose core audience is going to skew older, but also skew back into ye olden times. Those who played WC3 first time round, those who love RTS games (and probably have played one or both Starcrafts), some of the WoW community and presumably MoBA players curious to see where it all began. WC3 players might just notice all those missing features. SC players coming for a new game to test themselves might notice that a bloody ladder is missing. It’s the era of YouTube critics echoing each other, who hate AAA publishers and their practices and how they impact on this hobby we all share. So in my recent recommends I get a lot of ‘Warcraft Reforged another Blizzard disaster’ suggestions, checked one out and the video maker plus most of the comments weren’t even Warcraft 3 players, they’re savaging the launch because it’s symptomatic of Activision/Blizzards direction. You do not get a second launch. Of all the games that have got savaged at launch in recent years I can only really think of No Man’s Sky that made a pretty solid recovery. Which is a different beast anyway as it was more a case of that team overhyping the game and being over ambitious, but they eventually did add a lot of the promised content eventually. To think I said that the delay in the launch was a good sign because they’d release it in a better state and I was happy to wait, well Jesus I thought we were talking a lick of polish not a large chunk of the entire skeleton missing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27320 Posts
On January 31 2020 23:25 Shock710 wrote: They did do everything u just said, the graphics are better (just not preferable to alot of players because they are extremely use to the classic version its the same thing when wc3 dota was making the transition into dota2 and not just heros but the actual map dodads and terrain people get use to things) the iu is slightly revamped i doubt anyone that plays regularly would be happy with a whole new iu layout a simple icon upgrade is pretty much what they did. The cinematics are in higher quality although not "remade" and would be a huge task even the sc:r scenes didnt get remade. I call bullshit on the fudemental stuff...i play wc3 regularly and enter in mini leagues, i also played the reforged beta 1s and 2s a plenty. The game works fine after all it is just the classic game but with a art covering the new models. Apart from a extremely small amount of visual bugs (which are just simply going to be fixed next patch) eg: wardens inital shadow strike animation cant be easily seen making spell dodging with invuls hard vs that (very niche) the rest of the shadow strike damage over time is well represented. There are tiny things like that...almost inconsequential to gameplay. There are no mechanics that are different from classical. Almost everything has to do with the art over the classical engine (some of the trees art makes it look like ur clicking within the hit box but not) They mentioned the ranked ladder would not be up in the first season way before hand not to mention if anyone was really serious about climbing ladder netease has been the way to go for a long time and they still have their classical wc3 ladder up and running. Ive been running through the campaign and have had zero bugs, no unexpected errors and my laptop is pretty old. People want to complain and find their echo chamber to continue complaining take a break from reddit and just play the game yourself. What is it about the lost art of making ladders? Blizzard seemed to have it done fine a decade and a half ago. Such ladders exist yes, the whole main draw of Reforged (for me was to expand the playerbase, especially at the low end so people can just organically ladder and have a good time improving. I’d be serious about climbing a ladder, you just need that first rung to cling on to. I’m unsure as to what the standard of the low players is like on those WC3 ladders, if it’s anything like my experiences playing BW, Quake or other older games with veteran communities it’s tough even to get to the shape that you can know where you’re going wrong. An actual Reforged influx of players with a ladder, doesn’t even have to be a huge influx would have really softened that curve. They did indeed mention this though, so it wasn’t duplicitous on their part. Enough people seem to be having hardware issues, some with pretty good specs too that there’s probably something in that. Some have stated that it’s just compatibility issues with certain hardware and drivers, there’s a lot of variation out there and weird issues can arise. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On January 31 2020 23:25 Shock710 wrote: They did do everything u just said, the graphics are better (just not preferable to alot of players because they are extremely use to the classic version its the same thing when wc3 dota was making the transition into dota2 and not just heros but the actual map dodads and terrain people get use to things) the iu is slightly revamped i doubt anyone that plays regularly would be happy with a whole new iu layout a simple icon upgrade is pretty much what they did. The cinematics are in higher quality although not "remade" and would be a huge task even the sc:r scenes didnt get remade. The graphics are higher resolution. They are not better. The graphics are extremely ugly and beneath Blizzard standards. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12133 Posts
On January 31 2020 22:44 Manit0u wrote: The worst thing is that all they had to do is improve the graphics, revamp the UI slightly and maybe redo the cinematic cutscenes. But no, they went and started changing a lot of other stuff, some of it pretty fundamental. The interplay between old and new could've been nice but I don't think it was ultimately necessary and trying to do it has retroactively broken a game that has been working perfectly for 16 years... I mean, even if you want to do so much, why not do it incrementally? Like, release the graphics and UI updates first. When it's fine and stable fix the multiplayer and start playing with other things like crossplay between versions. Your list is incomplete though. It's missing EA (Fifa, especially Switch version, Madden), 2K (NBA and WWE), Ubisoft (Ghost Recon), Konami (Contra: Rogue Corps), Microsoft (Crackdown 3). Still, Bethesda got the worst of it with Fallout '76, Rage 2 and Wolfenstein: Youngblood. All super hyped, all super disappointing. C'mon, it was a joke Doesn't work if you include others | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On February 01 2020 00:10 Mohdoo wrote: The graphics are higher resolution. They are not better. The graphics are extremely ugly and beneath Blizzard standards. This is something I find super weird, given the art in SC:R. To me, that demonstrated that they knew how to upgrade the graphics of an older game, while respecting its aesthetic. This just looks like a couple of filters were run to make it technically more high-res, but not appealing in the way I came to expect. It bumps me. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17838 Posts
On February 01 2020 00:10 Mohdoo wrote: The graphics are higher resolution. They are not better. The graphics are extremely ugly and beneath Blizzard standards. Maybe that's because it wasn't Blizzard who actually made the changes... What's the point of growing from 180 people to a few thousand developers if you outsource most of the work anyway? The joys of joining the big boy corporate club. I wonder how this game is going to look like in a month or three. I guess that by then most people will probably have already left for greener pastures so fixing it post-launch might not work as well for Blizz as it did for Hello Games (No Man's Sky). | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On February 01 2020 00:00 Wombat_NI wrote: What is it about the lost art of making ladders? Blizzard seemed to have it done fine a decade and a half ago. Such ladders exist yes, the whole main draw of Reforged (for me was to expand the playerbase, especially at the low end so people can just organically ladder and have a good time improving. I’d be serious about climbing a ladder, you just need that first rung to cling on to. I’m unsure as to what the standard of the low players is like on those WC3 ladders, if it’s anything like my experiences playing BW, Quake or other older games with veteran communities it’s tough even to get to the shape that you can know where you’re going wrong. An actual Reforged influx of players with a ladder, doesn’t even have to be a huge influx would have really softened that curve. They did indeed mention this though, so it wasn’t duplicitous on their part. Enough people seem to be having hardware issues, some with pretty good specs too that there’s probably something in that. Some have stated that it’s just compatibility issues with certain hardware and drivers, there’s a lot of variation out there and weird issues can arise. Truly new players are not going to the ladder...theyre playing the campagin even if some brave souls decide to ladder they would crushed in either the current pool of matchmaking or find themselves losing at a large rate before finding someone at their lvl. The amount of old/returning players greatly out numbers the new players. There just isnt enough players to have a good "bronze league" Most returning old players will also be heading into the campaign and unless youre a streamer or have no life i doubt many will even get up to the rexxar bonus campaign by the time ladder is released. The ladder is coming just invision this as a probational period i wouldnt be surprised if there was hidden mmr to test how it will look. Its not u cant host custom 1v1s either. I wont defend hardware issues because thats a seperate part from people claiming that the game itself is terrible. On February 01 2020 00:10 Mohdoo wrote: The graphics are higher resolution. They are not better. The graphics are extremely ugly and beneath Blizzard standards. Youre either baised or delusional...go to any reforge unit comparison on youtube and you will see "graphics" have improved drastically if anything theyve done too detailed of a job making the birds eye view hard to distinguish (like between a ghoul and the skele from rod) no one without bias would call the reforged models ugly compared to the classical one. Give some examples of ur so called ugly models. But again i believe some what of it comes being so use to what wc3 units look like. I had trouble with footmen vs militia at the begining of beta but its getting better and no doubt with the slightly more outstanding visuals like the at first too small bear and now too big these can be fixed easily. But most of the units are perfectly fine, a very small % have remaining issues. The models themselves look amazing and are instantly recognizable to the WoW franchise As for how this game will look in the next 3 months? I doubt it would increase drastically even if it had a magnificent launch with glowing reviews everywhere, rts games are just extremely punishing for those who dont want to commit and put in the time to learn the game indepth. The time where sc2 brought in a healthy pool of bronze/silver/gold league players is gone. Everyone wants to play with friends not vs them in a 1v1. rts games just arent what people like right now nothing about reforged would have changed that (the value of custom games with friends has also diminished with other game titles filling the role with better alternatives) | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1174 Posts
On January 31 2020 17:39 Cyro wrote: People reported the same thing often with SC2 and with some other games. It's a hardware problem that just hadn't been exposed before because the hardware was insufficiently tested. True, but does it have to be this way? - Of course, not, that's why this time they have drivers recommended for AMD (in this particular example). -> the result is burning users hardware It doesn't justify the troubles. In B2B, if a company sells a product that crashes your whole system and fucks things up, they'd be sued. In our case - who cares about some people playing video games... after all, Blizz got the money. | ||
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