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Russian Federation410 Posts
On June 08 2013 01:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:30 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:21 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue is not the DRM or used games, but poor people. If one can freely blow $500 (or whatever it costs) on a console, he won't have any problems connecting the thing to the internet once a day or with inability to trade in games.
Most of these are non-issues for PC gamers. It's all purchased online, played online or while being online. You realize much of the midwest in the US has shitty internet/no internet because there arent enough people that live out there for ISP's to justify putting cable out there. Right? Also, what about armed forces stationed abroad? Shitty internet will do. People without it, I assume, have mobile phones with 3G or GPRS, which can be turned into Wifi routers by three clicks in Settings, Xbox One can be connected via WiFi (If I read the specs right). Armed forces stationed abroad probably will have to do without ONE. I edited my post to contain some hard numbers. Mobile internet is included in those numbers, so they dont have 3G either.
In any case, only people in the developed word have the money to buy ONE and games for it, I assume 75% Internet availability should be okay. These are somewhat "obscure" arguing points that really do not make any real difference. There are more than plenty of customers who can easily meet connectivity requirements for the thing to work properly.
New Slogan: Xbox ONE - If you are poor, a conspiracy theorist or a poor conspiracy theorist, - it is not for you.
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On June 08 2013 01:37 Go0g3n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:30 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:21 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue is not the DRM or used games, but poor people. If one can freely blow $500 (or whatever it costs) on a console, he won't have any problems connecting the thing to the internet once a day or with inability to trade in games.
Most of these are non-issues for PC gamers. It's all purchased online, played online or while being online. You realize much of the midwest in the US has shitty internet/no internet because there arent enough people that live out there for ISP's to justify putting cable out there. Right? Also, what about armed forces stationed abroad? Shitty internet will do. People without it, I assume, have mobile phones with 3G or GPRS, which can be turned into Wifi routers by three clicks in Settings, Xbox One can be connected via WiFi (If I read the specs right). Armed forces stationed abroad probably will have to do without ONE. I edited my post to contain some hard numbers. Mobile internet is included in those numbers, so they dont have 3G either. In any case, only people in the developed word have the money to buy ONE and games for it, I assume 75% Internet availability should be okay.
The people that don't have internet aren't necessarily poor. They just don't have internet. Also, $50/month is a lot more expensive than a 1 time investment into a console.
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This argument doesn't hold much since most of the people in the world without internet access can't afford a xbox one or any other system. Do you really think people in sub saharian africa want to buy an xbox ?
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On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that.
Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on.
And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business.
Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title.
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On June 08 2013 01:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:37 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:30 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:21 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue is not the DRM or used games, but poor people. If one can freely blow $500 (or whatever it costs) on a console, he won't have any problems connecting the thing to the internet once a day or with inability to trade in games.
Most of these are non-issues for PC gamers. It's all purchased online, played online or while being online. You realize much of the midwest in the US has shitty internet/no internet because there arent enough people that live out there for ISP's to justify putting cable out there. Right? Also, what about armed forces stationed abroad? Shitty internet will do. People without it, I assume, have mobile phones with 3G or GPRS, which can be turned into Wifi routers by three clicks in Settings, Xbox One can be connected via WiFi (If I read the specs right). Armed forces stationed abroad probably will have to do without ONE. I edited my post to contain some hard numbers. Mobile internet is included in those numbers, so they dont have 3G either. In any case, only people in the developed word have the money to buy ONE and games for it, I assume 75% Internet availability should be okay. The people that don't have internet aren't necessarily poor. They just don't have internet. Also, $50/month is a lot more expensive than a 1 time investment into a console.
Be sure that Microsoft has this data and likely did the math on how much they would lose by putting the requirement on the system. Its not pretty, but they may have found that they wouldn't lose that much money and the publishers are really pushing to hedge out the used game market.
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On June 08 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:37 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:30 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:21 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue is not the DRM or used games, but poor people. If one can freely blow $500 (or whatever it costs) on a console, he won't have any problems connecting the thing to the internet once a day or with inability to trade in games.
Most of these are non-issues for PC gamers. It's all purchased online, played online or while being online. You realize much of the midwest in the US has shitty internet/no internet because there arent enough people that live out there for ISP's to justify putting cable out there. Right? Also, what about armed forces stationed abroad? Shitty internet will do. People without it, I assume, have mobile phones with 3G or GPRS, which can be turned into Wifi routers by three clicks in Settings, Xbox One can be connected via WiFi (If I read the specs right). Armed forces stationed abroad probably will have to do without ONE. I edited my post to contain some hard numbers. Mobile internet is included in those numbers, so they dont have 3G either. In any case, only people in the developed word have the money to buy ONE and games for it, I assume 75% Internet availability should be okay. The people that don't have internet aren't necessarily poor. They just don't have internet. Also, $50/month is a lot more expensive than a 1 time investment into a console. Be sure that Microsoft has this data and likely did the math on how much they would lose by putting the requirement on the system. Its not pretty, but they may have found that they wouldn't lose that much money and the publishers are really pushing to hedge out the used game market.
There is no doubt that they know this, I am just saying that they are willingly excluding people with this daily connection thing.
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On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that.
Second hand purchasing of games is not piracy. Every second hand game purchased is a potential revenue loss for a publisher. People who own consoles or gaming devices are usually people with a disposable income. You don't buy appliances like that if you have to count every single penny in your wallet. However, since second hand games are often a lot cheaper than brand new ones, people will buy the second hand game. Thing is, they would have bought the game anyway, even if there was no option to buy it second hand.
Production costs for AAA games are through the roof nowadays and if publishers can't recuperate those costs because they don't sell enough copies, they'll just stop making those games we all love. I'm quite worried when I hear that publishers consider a game flopped because it "merely" sold 3 million copies.
To be honest, if you can afford to spend 40 EUR/USD on a game but not 60 EUR/USD, you'd better not buy the game at all. 20 EUR/USD isn't that large an amount of money but if it matters that much, you've got other priorities in life.
Either way, all games, except those from Blizzard and Activision, get cheaper in due time. I remember buying Battlefield 3 vanilla a year and a half ago for 40-something euros. Nowadays, you can buy the game and all of its mappacks (worth 50-60 EUR) for that price.
EDIT: at the moment I'm rather neutral about both next-gen consoles. Neither of them has announced a game I would consider buying the system for. The reason I have an Xbox360 is the gears of war-series and the reason I have a (somewhat outdated) gaming PC is largely Starcraft 2. For the most part I don't play a lot of video games anymore.
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On June 08 2013 01:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:41 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2013 01:39 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:37 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:32 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:30 Go0g3n wrote:On June 08 2013 01:24 TheRabidDeer wrote:On June 08 2013 01:21 Go0g3n wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue is not the DRM or used games, but poor people. If one can freely blow $500 (or whatever it costs) on a console, he won't have any problems connecting the thing to the internet once a day or with inability to trade in games.
Most of these are non-issues for PC gamers. It's all purchased online, played online or while being online. You realize much of the midwest in the US has shitty internet/no internet because there arent enough people that live out there for ISP's to justify putting cable out there. Right? Also, what about armed forces stationed abroad? Shitty internet will do. People without it, I assume, have mobile phones with 3G or GPRS, which can be turned into Wifi routers by three clicks in Settings, Xbox One can be connected via WiFi (If I read the specs right). Armed forces stationed abroad probably will have to do without ONE. I edited my post to contain some hard numbers. Mobile internet is included in those numbers, so they dont have 3G either. In any case, only people in the developed word have the money to buy ONE and games for it, I assume 75% Internet availability should be okay. The people that don't have internet aren't necessarily poor. They just don't have internet. Also, $50/month is a lot more expensive than a 1 time investment into a console. Be sure that Microsoft has this data and likely did the math on how much they would lose by putting the requirement on the system. Its not pretty, but they may have found that they wouldn't lose that much money and the publishers are really pushing to hedge out the used game market. There is no doubt that they know this, I am just saying that they are willingly excluding people with this daily connection thing.
Its is called business and they have to do it. Publishers are quietly pushing Sony and Microsoft to stop the used game market or make sure they get a cut of the profit. Gamestop was making money hand over fist for the last generation and all of that was money that could have gone to publishers. EA just said they are not developing games for the Wii U. Have no doubt that if there wasn't this DRM in the Xbox and PS4, there may simply decide not to make games for it. It was the choice between the huge publishers or as small subset of the user base that may get better internet in a couple of years.
The publishers have a lot more leverage this time around and they have been taking it the teeth for the last 1.5-2 years. So many studios have gone out of business in the last couple of years, even though they made good games. This stuff has been coming for a while now.
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On June 08 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that. Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on. And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title.
And i agree with trying to eliminate Gamestop etc . BUT there has to be a more elegant way that isn't at the expense of the customers. Not to mention they'll be partnering with Gamestop etc anyway so that the only one that in the end suffers is smaller buisnesness and the end consumer.
If they cared in any shape for form for their customers they would've been way more transperent for all this shit and announced some form of consolation as trade-off . But guess what they didn't the only people talking about lowering prices etc are just speculating . There's no reason to believe prices will change to PC Prices ( or lower ) considering how different the two markets are.
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There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business.
Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales?
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On June 08 2013 01:55 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that. Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on. And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title. And i agree with trying to eliminate Gamestop etc . BUT there has to be a more elegant way that isn't at the expense of the customers. Not to mention they'll be partnering with Gamestop etc anyway so that the only one that in the end suffers is smaller buisnesness and the end consumer. If they cared in any shape for form for their customers they would've been way more transperent for all this shit and announced some form of consolation as trade-off . But guess what they didn't the only people talking about lowering prices etc are just speculating . There's no reason to believe prices will change to PC Prices ( or lower ) considering how different the two markets are.
Prices will go down as quickly as they do on amazon and steam, have no doubt. And there are trade offs. No disks required, installed games, the ability to buy online the day of release, the ability to borrow games without transferring a physical copy, online profiles that allow you to sign in from any counsel. These are all good things that I have wanted for a while. Games will be made on platforms that allow them to be switched to PC easily now, so it is likely games will launch on all three at the same time.
There is no way to remove the used game market but through DRM or some sort of system that prevents the sale of a used game. They can't limit them through rules or contracts, because Gamestop is just a store(or pawn shop) that lets people buy used goods. If there was another solution, they would have used that one.
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On June 08 2013 01:59 s4rk wrote:Show nested quote +There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales?
There is no data that directly reports that used games sales closed a studio like a smoking gun. But industry experts like Giant Bomb, Joystiq and Michael Pachter have been saying for over two years now that the reason video games are such high risk is partly because of the huge up front investment and used games cutting directly and instantly into the profits of publishers and studios. The fact that Tomb Raider sold over 3 million copies in two 2 weeks and was considered a failure showed how insane the expectations are for these games.
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A tiny bit off topic but.... what happens if you lose internet for a day? will xbox live shutdown forever? because microsoft says that you must be on atleast 1 hour a day.
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On June 08 2013 02:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:55 s3rp wrote:On June 08 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that. Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on. And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title. And i agree with trying to eliminate Gamestop etc . BUT there has to be a more elegant way that isn't at the expense of the customers. Not to mention they'll be partnering with Gamestop etc anyway so that the only one that in the end suffers is smaller buisnesness and the end consumer. If they cared in any shape for form for their customers they would've been way more transperent for all this shit and announced some form of consolation as trade-off . But guess what they didn't the only people talking about lowering prices etc are just speculating . There's no reason to believe prices will change to PC Prices ( or lower ) considering how different the two markets are. Prices will go down as quickly as they do on amazon and steam, have no doubt. And there are trade offs. No disks required, installed games, the ability to buy online the day of release, the ability to borrow games without transferring a physical copy, online profiles that allow you to sign in from any counsel. These are all good things that I have wanted for a while. Games will be made on platforms that allow them to be switched to PC easily now, so it is likely games will launch on all three at the same time. There is no way to remove the used game market but through DRM or some sort of system that prevents the sale of a used game. They can't limit them through rules or contracts, because Gamestop is just a store(or pawn shop) that lets people buy used goods. If there was another solution, they would have used that one.
This is where is disagree . The consoles have a monopolized online platform that PC's don't . Without a competetive digital market i don't see what would compell the only provider of a service to lower the price. I mean just look the PSN/Xbox live currently and the prices they charge for 2 years or older games on demand.
And don't talk about Amazon etc they aren't any better for console games. Especially the German Amazon is just a joke i in most cases import games because of how expensive the german market is.
Want an example ? I paid 30€ for Deadly Promonition last week from Amazon UK ( no shipping cost ) . You know what i would've paid from the German ? 37€ + 5€ Shipping because the game is 18+ ...
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On June 08 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:59 s4rk wrote:There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales? There is no data that directly reports that used games sales closed a studio like a smoking gun. But industry experts like Giant Bomb, Joystiq and Michael Pachter have been saying for over two years now that the reason video games are such high risk is partly because of the huge up front investment and used games cutting directly and instantly into the profits of publishers and studios. The fact that Tomb Raider sold over 3 million copies in two 2 weeks and was considered a failure showed how insane the expectations are for these games.
3 million copies in 2 weeks and being considered a failure doesnt mean they didnt make money, it just means they were expecting more. The gaming market is HUGE now, and sales are higher. When you release a AAA title with a huge backstory like Tomb Raider, you expect big sales numbers off of brand name alone. I mean, games like CoD/BF/Diablo sold double that in like the first DAY... so yea 3 million is comparably lackluster. This is not an indication of profit though.
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On June 08 2013 02:21 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2013 01:59 s4rk wrote:There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales? There is no data that directly reports that used games sales closed a studio like a smoking gun. But industry experts like Giant Bomb, Joystiq and Michael Pachter have been saying for over two years now that the reason video games are such high risk is partly because of the huge up front investment and used games cutting directly and instantly into the profits of publishers and studios. The fact that Tomb Raider sold over 3 million copies in two 2 weeks and was considered a failure showed how insane the expectations are for these games. 3 million copies in 2 weeks and being considered a failure doesnt mean they didnt make money, it just means they were expecting more. The gaming market is HUGE now, and sales are higher. When you release a AAA title with a huge backstory like Tomb Raider, you expect big sales numbers off of brand name alone. I mean, games like CoD/BF/Diablo sold double that in like the first DAY... so yea 3 million is comparably lackluster. This is not an indication of profit though.
Everyone in the industry, including other developers said that Square's expectations were unreasonable if 3 million is considering a failure. SC2 has only sold slightly less that 5 million world wide in 2 years. And the other games you referenced are not the standard in the industry at all. A game with 8-14 million in sales is not standard or reasonable for all titles. Dead Space three, which sold as well as Dead Space 2, was considered a failure by the publisher.
It is a problem with the industry and everyone in it is saying that used games are part of the problem. They prevent games from having a long tale in sales or ongoing income and force the publisher to do thing to make sure people buy the game day one, or preorder.
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On June 08 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that. Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on. And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title.
Ever stopped to think why companies such as GameStop sell used games? It's because publishers barely share any of the revenue with distributors. It wouldn't have to if publishers weren't so greedy to take everything for themselves. If it was more profitable for GameStop to sell new games, then guess what? They wouldn't even waste time in the used game market.
Another way to confirm this point is the online prices of games. They cost exactly the same as in at the stores!!! This is insane! If distributors actually got a noticeable part of the revenue then this wouldn't make sense at all. Selling your product online is even much preferable because it's cheaper for publishers and offers them total control and yet somehow they still charge the full retail price for products online. It really goes to show the level of greed of these guys. Day one DLC with basic in game elements, games being released way before they are actually ready and lots of anti consumer features - the list goes on and on. These guys will do anything to squeeze every last bit of dime out of customers (and distributors) and they are not afraid to sacrifice the product's quality to do so. And now, in the midst of this, Microsoft is for some reason hell bent on helping these greedy ****
The used game issue is a problem created by developers and publishers themselves and so is it if they can't make ends meet. If they didn't all have these ridiculous bloated development cost to produce the next generic rip off of what is currently the most popular game they wouldn't be in this situation. EA for instance needed to sell 5 000 000 copies of Dead Space 3(which has become more and more generic as the series goes on) in order to find profit in continuing the series! And has this ridiculous production cost made it any more of a better game than so many others? If these are the criteria for success then of course some people are going to fail! We see many examples of where games marked to niche audiences achieve great success but somehow it still seems like a battle for so many to create the most expensive game with the "broadest appeal" ever... :/
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On June 08 2013 01:59 s4rk wrote:Show nested quote +There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales?
The fact is that there is an overwhelming little amount of data to back up the preposterous statements publishers make about losing games sales based on either piracy or used game market. Why? Because it can't be calculated! It doesn't work to just go "Oh, GameStop sold 100000 used copies of our games. Thats 100000 lost sales!", but this is actually what they do. Same with piracy. Publishers seems to think that each pirated game equals one lost sale.
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On June 08 2013 02:31 Cereb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:39 Plansix wrote:On June 08 2013 01:29 Blacktion wrote:On June 08 2013 00:57 maartendq wrote:
I don't see the issue with having to be online every 24 hours. In all honesty, I can't imagine a gamer anno 2013 who does not have an internet connection. People who don't have internet connections are generally people who lack the money to buy expensive luxury products like consoles or gaming PCs anyway.
The fact that buying second hand games is going to be severely limited sucks though, even though we had it coming. Publishers aren't gaining anything from people who buy secondhand games, on the contrary. They've been lobbying against the second hand market for a while now.
I do find it a bit hypocritical that PC gamers are complaining about always-online requirements and the inability to resell a bought game. Steam, starcraft 2, diablo 3 and many other games require you to either log in online every few days or require you to be online at all times, and ever since steam became popular it's been downright impossible to sell PC games on the second hand market, unless they're 10 years old.
If the Xbone has this kind of DRM, you can be sure that the PS4 will have it as well. I'm actually a bit worried about the lack of communication by Sony. They probably want to ride the hate-wave a bit, but at the same time I feel like they're hiding something. The issue is big companies creating restrictions that screw over the user just to save a few bucks on piracy, and it wont work anyway. Also im not sure where your getting that info from, but steams offline mode doesnt require you to go online at all, and i played WoL for about 2 weeks without connecting to the internet, never played D3 so cant comment on that. Steam's offline mode works for 30 days and then shuts down. Microsoft will likely adjust the time required from 24 hours as things go on. And lets be clear, the DRM isn't about pirated games. That was a problem with the Xbox and PS2, yet the 360 and PS3 didn't have super DRM. The DRM is about used games and the publishers being undercut by Gamestop. There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Microsoft does not give a shit about pirated games. But publisher do give a shit about used games being sold one day after the release of the 20 million dollar title. Ever stopped to think why companies such as GameStop sell used games? It's because publishers barely share any of the revenue with distributors. It wouldn't have to if publishers weren't so greedy to take everything for themselves. If it was more profitable for GameStop to sell new games, then guess what? They wouldn't even waste time in the used game market. Another way to confirm this point is the online prices of games. They cost exactly the same as in at the stores!!! This is insane! If distributors actually got a noticeable part of the revenue then this wouldn't make sense at all. Selling your product online is even much preferable because it's cheaper for publishers and offers them total control and yet somehow they still charge the full retail price for products online. It really goes to show the level of greed of these guys. Day one DLC with basic in game elements, games being released way before they are actually ready and lots of anti consumer features - the list goes on and on. These guys will do anything to squeeze every last bit of dime out of customers (and distributors) and they are not afraid to sacrifice the product's quality to do so. And now, in the midst of this, Microsoft is for some reason hell bent on helping these greedy **** The used game issue is a problem created by developers and publishers themselves and so is it if they can't make ends meet. If they didn't all have these ridiculous bloated development cost to produce the next generic rip off of what is currently the most popular game they wouldn't be in this situation. EA for instance needed to sell 5 000 000 copies of Dead Space 3(which has become more and more generic as the series goes on) in order to find profit in continuing the series! And has this ridiculous production cost made it any more of a better game than so many others? If these are the criteria for success then of course some people are going to fail! We see many examples of where games marked to niche audiences achieve great success but somehow it still seems like a battle for so many to create the most expensive game with the "broadest appeal" ever... :/
Games are hard to make and cost money. Look at the Skull Girls Kickstarter if you want to see exactly how much it cost. None of this stuff is easy, it all takes smart, talented people to make those games. People who claim game budgets are bloated, or that online sales should be cheaper(because CDs somehow got expensive to stamp) don't really have a firm understanding as to how hard making games is.
Its like people who thing making a website is easy and can happen instantly. Or that Game of Thrones could be sold to people on a per viewer basis at cost by HBO. People undervalue the cost making making things they can't hold in their hands.
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On June 08 2013 02:36 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 01:59 s4rk wrote:There is overwhelming data to back up that the used game market is crushing sections of the video game industry, causing studios to go out of business. Source? and what game studios were closed directly because of used game sales? The fact is that there is an overwhelming little amount of data to back up the preposterous statements publishers make about losing games sales based on either piracy or used game market. Why? Because it can't be calculated! It doesn't work to just go "Oh, GameStop sold 100000 used copies of our games. Thats 100000 lost sales!", but this is actually what they do. Same with piracy. Publishers seems to think that each pirated game equals one lost sale.
A used game sale at $55 dollars(standard at gamestop for a new release, bought back at $30, with a 85% mark up) for a $60 game new is a lost sale. There is no argument that can be made otherwise. The math is out there too, GameStop is a public company and they publish their sales figures. Nothing that you said is correct.
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EPT
