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On November 21 2013 07:05 Aylear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:32 Conti wrote:On November 21 2013 06:16 Raelcun wrote:
If putting "Remove Horror" in your title causing /vg/ to raid you leads to harassment, then yes.
Encouraging harassment, and having a title that causes people to flock to your channel are two different things. I disagree. Everyone involved here is smart enough to know that putting up a title like that will encourage harassment and - depending on the size of your channel - will inevitably lead to harassment. There is a difference between wearing an animal rights ribbon, and telling everyone you know to bomb animal testing facilities. You cannot automatically hold people responsible for the actions of others. Once you reach a sizable audience, almost anything negative you say about persons or projects can make a minority of your listeners do something rash and stupid that you do not condone. TotalBiscuit has been the catalyst for harassment and internet brigading even while he repeatedly and forcefully states that he is against that kind of behavior. In this case, I believe it falls on the "ribbon" side of the spectrum. Issuing site-wide bans of content creators over inoffensive titles - their only form of protest available - is the wrong way to handle the aftermath.
Precisely that. Once you reach a sizable audience, you have a responsibility. And that includes being very diplomatic in what you say and do. Putting "remove XYZ!" in your title and stream is just an invitation to the idiots that follow you (and there always are idiots that follow you) to go and pester XYZ on twitter, find out personal data and publish it, etc. etc.
That is exactly why TB keeps pointing out to people to not do these things, even if TB does not like someone at all. Because TB does not want this to happen. Now I have not seen Werster's stream (or anyone else's who got banned), but they appear to have not made any effort to stop the harassment that was inevitably going to result from their actions. This is what i condemn.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put all the blame on the streamers. Twitch is handling this really poorly, too. Bad PR, Streisand effect, etc. And I have no idea if Horror is a bad/arrogant/evil admin or not. But practically nobody deserves an internet mob.
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On November 21 2013 07:09 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:05 SKC wrote:
Twitch has nothing to do on whether you live off your channel or it's just something you do on the side. The rules apply to everyone. The question is whether their rulings are fair, which is often quite a big question. But that shouldn't change if you make money off Twitch. In theory, sure. I agree with the principle. But in practice I think there's a difference between IP banning someone with two viewers and IP banning a major stream.
It's more about it being just a random stream or someone that put more effort and is closely related to the community. But it doesn't matter if it's his source of income. You shouldn't be less strict to Werster than you are to Runnerguy, for example, just because he needs the money.
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Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, I completely agree that being a subscriber-supported streamer shouldn't matter.
However, being a large stream versus a small stream shouldn't matter either, and yet it clearly does. That's the point I was trying to make originally.
Either way, regardless of any of the other stuff, the major issue to me is banning someone for something that isn't related to the Terms of Service. That's absolutely not acceptable. If they need to change the ToS, then do that and publicize it, then crack down on those violations. But don't ban someone then retroactively justify it.
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On November 21 2013 06:58 NovaMB wrote:
All this bullshit just because of some fucking pixels on a website. Grow up already. Harassing someone, for as little as marginal bullshit as this ,is disgusting
So youre ok with a twitch admin abusing his power and also not doing his job properly. Horror gave his boyfriend a GLOBAL emote for twitch when global emotes are saved for twitch staff or very big streamers...his boyfriend is neither which is clearly favoritism and abuse of power. Horror also is the one in charge of approving all emotes and dropped the ball not once but twice. First in approving cyphgers emotes without doing the research then removing emotes that had nothing to do with what he claimed they were associated to.
Secondly Duke got IP banned for making a joke. Horror went overboard especially after everyone found out the story behind NightLight. Horror has a history of abusing power and once again showed it last night. IP banning Duke over a joke is clearly overstepping his authority. From there it devolved into a lot of hate and poor reactions from both sides. Intentions were good, but clearly there needs to be some repercussions and talk about what happened by both sides.
Horror and twitch were clearly not ready for the community to bite back at the amount of power abuse that happened. They acted poorly and the community reacted as equally poorly. Communication was shit and that was the biggest problem.
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On November 21 2013 07:17 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, I completely agree that being a subscriber-supported streamer shouldn't matter.
However, being a large stream versus a small stream shouldn't matter either, and yet it clearly does. That's the point I was trying to make originally.
Either way, regardless of any of the other stuff, the major issue to me is banning someone for something that isn't related to the Terms of Service. That's absolutely not acceptable. If they need to change the ToS, then do that and publicize it, then crack down on those violations. But don't ban someone then retroactively justify it.
The small scale thing is just unavoidable, like it's far easier for someone with a low post count to get banned. Sure, in theory it would be nice if it didn't happen, but it's not something I think is reasonable, you can't be as through with every single account, specially with as many throw away accounts for such things.
According to Twitch, it was harassment. The issue is that they were connecting the harassment from the community to the streamers. They were definatelly not helping, but that's not something you can do. If they gave several warning to change the title, and the streamer kept changing the title, I would understand a ban. I don't think they need to expect "free speech" or something.
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On November 21 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:50 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:42 Dubzex wrote:
All of the streams I watch are getting banned by some furry on a power trip. GG twitch The fact that you call him "some furry" is disgusting. I'm not commenting on what he's doing (it seems wrong to me but I can't say I'm well enough informed to judge) but the fact that he isn't a human being to you but rather "some furry" is absolutely not acceptable. Anybody who would sink low enough to refer to him like that ought to examine themselves closely before they accuse others. On November 21 2013 06:44 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
I don't know what happened or who was originally at fault but holy balls is Twitch handling this as poorly as possible. This, on the other hand, is spot on. Would you prefer that I refer to him as the furry named Horror? or Horrorthecat as his twitter handle states? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. So it would be fine to complain when your favourite player loses to Scarlett that they lost to "some Tranny playing zerg"? No... The fact that it matters to you that Horror identifies himself as a furry isn't reasonable. Judge him on his actions (which you are doing and is fine) and leave his sexuality out of it.
Also this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nFOfyzY.png)
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On November 21 2013 07:23 Dubzex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:50 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:42 Dubzex wrote:
All of the streams I watch are getting banned by some furry on a power trip. GG twitch The fact that you call him "some furry" is disgusting. I'm not commenting on what he's doing (it seems wrong to me but I can't say I'm well enough informed to judge) but the fact that he isn't a human being to you but rather "some furry" is absolutely not acceptable. Anybody who would sink low enough to refer to him like that ought to examine themselves closely before they accuse others. On November 21 2013 06:44 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
I don't know what happened or who was originally at fault but holy balls is Twitch handling this as poorly as possible. This, on the other hand, is spot on. Would you prefer that I refer to him as the furry named Horror? or Horrorthecat as his twitter handle states? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. So it would be fine to complain when your favourite player loses to Scarlett that they lost to "some Tranny playing zerg"? No... The fact that it matters to you that Horror identifies himself as a furry isn't reasonable. Judge him on his actions (which you are doing and is fine) and leave his sexuality out of it. Also this:
Your point being..?
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On November 21 2013 07:24 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:23 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:50 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:42 Dubzex wrote:
All of the streams I watch are getting banned by some furry on a power trip. GG twitch The fact that you call him "some furry" is disgusting. I'm not commenting on what he's doing (it seems wrong to me but I can't say I'm well enough informed to judge) but the fact that he isn't a human being to you but rather "some furry" is absolutely not acceptable. Anybody who would sink low enough to refer to him like that ought to examine themselves closely before they accuse others. On November 21 2013 06:44 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
I don't know what happened or who was originally at fault but holy balls is Twitch handling this as poorly as possible. This, on the other hand, is spot on. Would you prefer that I refer to him as the furry named Horror? or Horrorthecat as his twitter handle states? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. So it would be fine to complain when your favourite player loses to Scarlett that they lost to "some Tranny playing zerg"? No... The fact that it matters to you that Horror identifies himself as a furry isn't reasonable. Judge him on his actions (which you are doing and is fine) and leave his sexuality out of it. Also this: Your point being..?
Point being that sno said calling him a furry was "dehumanizing" him when this person clearly prefers being referred to as a furry.
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@SKC:
Fine, and I can get why Dugongue was banned for telling an admin to take the dick out of his mouth.
But realistically the 'harassment' started after the bans were issued. People spamming NightLight in channels isn't harassment any more than doing the same with Kappa or BibleThump or 8.95 after Canada Cup 2011. This is what Twitch encourages. The other day in Siglemic's stream, people were getting banned by Twitch admins for any use of the NightLight emote, and his channel was getting moved into slow mode and sub-only mode over his expressed wish. That stuff isn't ok.
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What happened to the speedrunning thread? O.o
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On November 21 2013 07:27 Dubzex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:24 Conti wrote:On November 21 2013 07:23 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:50 Dubzex wrote:On November 21 2013 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 21 2013 06:42 Dubzex wrote:
All of the streams I watch are getting banned by some furry on a power trip. GG twitch The fact that you call him "some furry" is disgusting. I'm not commenting on what he's doing (it seems wrong to me but I can't say I'm well enough informed to judge) but the fact that he isn't a human being to you but rather "some furry" is absolutely not acceptable. Anybody who would sink low enough to refer to him like that ought to examine themselves closely before they accuse others. On November 21 2013 06:44 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
I don't know what happened or who was originally at fault but holy balls is Twitch handling this as poorly as possible. This, on the other hand, is spot on. Would you prefer that I refer to him as the furry named Horror? or Horrorthecat as his twitter handle states? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. So it would be fine to complain when your favourite player loses to Scarlett that they lost to "some Tranny playing zerg"? No... The fact that it matters to you that Horror identifies himself as a furry isn't reasonable. Judge him on his actions (which you are doing and is fine) and leave his sexuality out of it. Also this: Your point being..? Point being that sno said calling him a furry was "dehumanizing" him when this person clearly prefers being referred to as a furry.
Oh come on. Pretty sure you know the difference between calling someone a furry and calling someone "some furry". The latter clearly indicates an implied negative stereotype.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On November 21 2013 07:30 Chezus wrote:
What happened to the speedrunning thread? O.o
Pitchforks and popcorn
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Norway3988 Posts
On November 21 2013 07:20 Kyhron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 06:58 NovaMB wrote:
All this bullshit just because of some fucking pixels on a website. Grow up already. Harassing someone, for as little as marginal bullshit as this ,is disgusting So youre ok with a twitch admin abusing his power and also not doing his job properly. Horror gave his boyfriend a GLOBAL emote for twitch when global emotes are saved for twitch staff or very big streamers...his boyfriend is neither which is clearly favoritism and abuse of power. Horror also is the one in charge of approving all emotes and dropped the ball not once but twice. First in approving cyphgers emotes without doing the research then removing emotes that had nothing to do with what he claimed they were associated to. Secondly Duke got IP banned for making a joke. Horror went overboard especially after everyone found out the story behind NightLight. Horror has a history of abusing power and once again showed it last night. IP banning Duke over a joke is clearly overstepping his authority. From there it devolved into a lot of hate and poor reactions from both sides. Intentions were good, but clearly there needs to be some repercussions and talk about what happened by both sides. Horror and twitch were clearly not ready for the community to bite back at the amount of power abuse that happened. They acted poorly and the community reacted as equally poorly. Communication was shit and that was the biggest problem.
I disagree with most of this.
First, Horror giving a global emote to someone who isn't a well-known streamer or Twitch staff: Not only does it not bother me, I would happily let him have this rare perk of the job that is having to deal with teenagers and idiots on a daily basis. The emote is not the problem here; stop acting like it will negatively impact your life.
Second, Duke got IP banned for "making a joke", which is Newspeak for "making a sexual jab at a known homosexual". The privileged do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable, and how people should and should not react to something like that. If I said to a black admin, "hey, trade you a global emote for some food stamps?", then in any decently run universe he would be legally allowed to punch me until it stopped being funny (I'm being facetious for the sake of making a point). What I mean is, I should be removed from play -- I no longer show any sensitivity to another human being. It was a stupid fucking thing to make a joke about and I am on Horror's side on this one.
The only thing I agree with is what is at the heart of all the current drama: The complete lack of transparency at Twitch, their posthumous justification for their actions, and their treatment of streamers who were respectfully showing their disagreement. Both parties are being fucking stupid and everyone should just relax until the people who are at the heart of this have a chance to to talk and come to some agreement.
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On November 21 2013 07:30 Chezus wrote:
What happened to the speedrunning thread? O.o
TL;DR: An unpopular twitch admin got into a bit of a conflict with some streamers, ended up banning one, which made other streamers mad and do stupid stuff, which made the twitch admin ban more streamers, which made more streamers mad, which made more twitch admins ban streamers.
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On November 21 2013 07:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
@SKC:
Fine, and I can get why Dugongue was banned for telling an admin to take the dick out of his mouth.
But realistically the 'harassment' started after the bans were issued. People spamming NightLight in channels isn't harassment any more than doing the same with Kappa or BibleThump or 8.95 after Canada Cup 2011. This is what Twitch encourages. The other day in Siglemic's stream, people were getting banned by Twitch admins for any use of the NightLight emote, and his channel was getting moved into slow mode and sub-only mode over his expressed wish. That stuff isn't ok.
I'm not saying they are right, just that in their views they didn't change the ToS. They just think that encouraging the hate campaign is harassments. I don't agree, but it's not about not following their own ToS. It's about lumping the streamers with the guys sending hate twits. I definatelly don't think Twitch acted correctly, but the reaction from the community, and even some streamers, was also quite immature.
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On November 21 2013 07:32 Conti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:30 Chezus wrote:
What happened to the speedrunning thread? O.o TL;DR: An unpopular twitch admin got into a bit of a conflict with some streamers, ended up banning one, which made other streamers mad and do stupid stuff, which made the twitch admin ban more streamers, which made more streamers mad, which made more twitch admins ban streamers.
Apparently Horror didnt ban Werster and peaches, someone else did.
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On November 21 2013 07:31 Aylear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:20 Kyhron wrote:On November 21 2013 06:58 NovaMB wrote:
All this bullshit just because of some fucking pixels on a website. Grow up already. Harassing someone, for as little as marginal bullshit as this ,is disgusting So youre ok with a twitch admin abusing his power and also not doing his job properly. Horror gave his boyfriend a GLOBAL emote for twitch when global emotes are saved for twitch staff or very big streamers...his boyfriend is neither which is clearly favoritism and abuse of power. Horror also is the one in charge of approving all emotes and dropped the ball not once but twice. First in approving cyphgers emotes without doing the research then removing emotes that had nothing to do with what he claimed they were associated to. Secondly Duke got IP banned for making a joke. Horror went overboard especially after everyone found out the story behind NightLight. Horror has a history of abusing power and once again showed it last night. IP banning Duke over a joke is clearly overstepping his authority. From there it devolved into a lot of hate and poor reactions from both sides. Intentions were good, but clearly there needs to be some repercussions and talk about what happened by both sides. Horror and twitch were clearly not ready for the community to bite back at the amount of power abuse that happened. They acted poorly and the community reacted as equally poorly. Communication was shit and that was the biggest problem. I disagree with most of this. First, Horror giving a global emote to someone who isn't a well-known streamer or Twitch staff: Not only does it not bother me, I would happily let him have this rare perk of the job that is having to deal with teenagers and idiots on a daily basis. The emote is not the problem here; stop acting like it will negatively impact your life. Second, Duke got IP banned for "making a joke", which is Newspeak for "making a sexual jab at a known homosexual". The privileged do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable, and how people should and should not react to something like that. If I said to a black admin, "hey, trade you a global emote for some food stamps?", then in any decently run universe he would be legally allowed to punch me until it stopped being funny (I'm being facetious for the sake of making a point). What I mean is, I should be removed from play -- I no longer show any sensitivity to another human being. It was a stupid fucking thing to make a joke about and I am on Horror's side on this one. The only thing I agree with is what is at the heart of all the current drama: The complete lack of transparency at Twitch, their posthumous justification for their actions, and their treatment of streamers who were respectfully showing their disagreement. Both parties are being fucking stupid and everyone should just relax until the people who are at the heart of this have a chance to to talk and come to some agreement.
wait...so its ok to make that kind of joke if they guy was straight? if you think he deserves special treatment cause he is homosexual you are the one treating him differently.
otherwise this is just your usual drama in the internet :D
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On November 21 2013 07:32 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:
@SKC:
Fine, and I can get why Dugongue was banned for telling an admin to take the dick out of his mouth.
But realistically the 'harassment' started after the bans were issued. People spamming NightLight in channels isn't harassment any more than doing the same with Kappa or BibleThump or 8.95 after Canada Cup 2011. This is what Twitch encourages. The other day in Siglemic's stream, people were getting banned by Twitch admins for any use of the NightLight emote, and his channel was getting moved into slow mode and sub-only mode over his expressed wish. That stuff isn't ok. I'm not saying they are right, just that in their views they didn't change the ToS. They just think that encouraging the hate campaign is harassments. I don't agree, but it's not about not following their own ToS. It's about lumping the streamers with the guys sending hate twits. I definatelly don't think Twitch acted correctly, but the reaction from the community, and even some streamers, was also quite immature.
Sure. Companies and people should have different standards. If I tell someone to suck a dick at a bar, I could reasonably expect to get punched in the face. If I tell someone to suck a dick at work, I could reasonably expect to get punched in the face and also get fired. That's my hangup. There's a big backlash against the community, but the community is always like this, across all games. And that sucks, and I'm usually one of the first people criticizing. But organizations should be held to a higher standard. It creates a false equivalency to try to leave it at "well, everyone acted badly." Yes, both parties acted badly, but one side should have and does have higher standards. And the consequences for failing to reach those standards should be higher. That's the consequence of being a business.
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Norway3988 Posts
On November 21 2013 07:37 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:31 Aylear wrote:On November 21 2013 07:20 Kyhron wrote:On November 21 2013 06:58 NovaMB wrote:
All this bullshit just because of some fucking pixels on a website. Grow up already. Harassing someone, for as little as marginal bullshit as this ,is disgusting So youre ok with a twitch admin abusing his power and also not doing his job properly. Horror gave his boyfriend a GLOBAL emote for twitch when global emotes are saved for twitch staff or very big streamers...his boyfriend is neither which is clearly favoritism and abuse of power. Horror also is the one in charge of approving all emotes and dropped the ball not once but twice. First in approving cyphgers emotes without doing the research then removing emotes that had nothing to do with what he claimed they were associated to. Secondly Duke got IP banned for making a joke. Horror went overboard especially after everyone found out the story behind NightLight. Horror has a history of abusing power and once again showed it last night. IP banning Duke over a joke is clearly overstepping his authority. From there it devolved into a lot of hate and poor reactions from both sides. Intentions were good, but clearly there needs to be some repercussions and talk about what happened by both sides. Horror and twitch were clearly not ready for the community to bite back at the amount of power abuse that happened. They acted poorly and the community reacted as equally poorly. Communication was shit and that was the biggest problem. I disagree with most of this. First, Horror giving a global emote to someone who isn't a well-known streamer or Twitch staff: Not only does it not bother me, I would happily let him have this rare perk of the job that is having to deal with teenagers and idiots on a daily basis. The emote is not the problem here; stop acting like it will negatively impact your life. Second, Duke got IP banned for "making a joke", which is Newspeak for "making a sexual jab at a known homosexual". The privileged do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable, and how people should and should not react to something like that. If I said to a black admin, "hey, trade you a global emote for some food stamps?", then in any decently run universe he would be legally allowed to punch me until it stopped being funny (I'm being facetious for the sake of making a point). What I mean is, I should be removed from play -- I no longer show any sensitivity to another human being. It was a stupid fucking thing to make a joke about and I am on Horror's side on this one. The only thing I agree with is what is at the heart of all the current drama: The complete lack of transparency at Twitch, their posthumous justification for their actions, and their treatment of streamers who were respectfully showing their disagreement. Both parties are being fucking stupid and everyone should just relax until the people who are at the heart of this have a chance to to talk and come to some agreement. wait...so its ok to make that kind of joke if they guy was straight? if you think he deserves special treatment cause he is homosexual you are the one treating him differently. otherwise this is just your usual drama in the internet :D
Straight people are not regularly and vehemently discriminated against for being straight. Your analogy is false. You (the privileged majority) do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable; you do not get to decide how people who are discriminated against should feel about discriminatory jokes and words.
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On November 21 2013 07:44 Aylear wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 07:37 TRAP[yoo] wrote:On November 21 2013 07:31 Aylear wrote:On November 21 2013 07:20 Kyhron wrote:On November 21 2013 06:58 NovaMB wrote:
All this bullshit just because of some fucking pixels on a website. Grow up already. Harassing someone, for as little as marginal bullshit as this ,is disgusting So youre ok with a twitch admin abusing his power and also not doing his job properly. Horror gave his boyfriend a GLOBAL emote for twitch when global emotes are saved for twitch staff or very big streamers...his boyfriend is neither which is clearly favoritism and abuse of power. Horror also is the one in charge of approving all emotes and dropped the ball not once but twice. First in approving cyphgers emotes without doing the research then removing emotes that had nothing to do with what he claimed they were associated to. Secondly Duke got IP banned for making a joke. Horror went overboard especially after everyone found out the story behind NightLight. Horror has a history of abusing power and once again showed it last night. IP banning Duke over a joke is clearly overstepping his authority. From there it devolved into a lot of hate and poor reactions from both sides. Intentions were good, but clearly there needs to be some repercussions and talk about what happened by both sides. Horror and twitch were clearly not ready for the community to bite back at the amount of power abuse that happened. They acted poorly and the community reacted as equally poorly. Communication was shit and that was the biggest problem. I disagree with most of this. First, Horror giving a global emote to someone who isn't a well-known streamer or Twitch staff: Not only does it not bother me, I would happily let him have this rare perk of the job that is having to deal with teenagers and idiots on a daily basis. The emote is not the problem here; stop acting like it will negatively impact your life. Second, Duke got IP banned for "making a joke", which is Newspeak for "making a sexual jab at a known homosexual". The privileged do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable, and how people should and should not react to something like that. If I said to a black admin, "hey, trade you a global emote for some food stamps?", then in any decently run universe he would be legally allowed to punch me until it stopped being funny (I'm being facetious for the sake of making a point). What I mean is, I should be removed from play -- I no longer show any sensitivity to another human being. It was a stupid fucking thing to make a joke about and I am on Horror's side on this one. The only thing I agree with is what is at the heart of all the current drama: The complete lack of transparency at Twitch, their posthumous justification for their actions, and their treatment of streamers who were respectfully showing their disagreement. Both parties are being fucking stupid and everyone should just relax until the people who are at the heart of this have a chance to to talk and come to some agreement. wait...so its ok to make that kind of joke if they guy was straight? if you think he deserves special treatment cause he is homosexual you are the one treating him differently. otherwise this is just your usual drama in the internet :D Straight people are not regularly and vehemently discriminated against for being straight. Your analogy is false. You (the privileged majority) do not get to decide what is and is not acceptable; you do not get to decide how people who are discriminated against should feel about discriminatory jokes and words.
Ah, the joys of equality without equality.
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EPT
