On April 16 2012 20:31 Spitfire wrote: Funny, I felt like Warcraft III wasnt as creative as Warcraft II. Felt like Diablo II lacked something Diablo had.
For younger fans 2000 - 2005 were the glory days of Blizzard. For me it was 1995 - 1999.
In other words, not sure whether the developer gets less creative or if we just get older and more cynical.
I can agree on Diablo, but WC3 still remains the best of the best when it comes to RTS campaign, characters, innovation etc. WC2 was great, but the fact that both races were basically the same, with just models being changed and few units (which still had their exact counterparts) would take away from the total score you could give it.
Wow, thats literally the first time i heard someone praise WC3 above WC2. For me WC3 was a flop, and it was received as one globally, later it got good with multiplayer improvement and stayed as good multiplayer game, but SP was kinda meh -_-
Fuck it all The Lost Vikings was the best.
WC3's singleplayer was extremly good. Far and above everything all other RTS showed only comparable to (good) RPG's... How you can call it a flop is beyond me.
Btw: I never really was into Warcraft 2. It was just another RTS among C&C1, Red Alert, KKND(!) and the others of that time.
For RTS singleplayer I always felt Westwood destroyed Blizzard. The liveaction done by Westwood was great. The plots were fun and intriguing.
I wouldn't say a lack of creativity, but a lack of risk. Too much money being invested in the later Blizzard projects. Would be nice if they had a small division with a smaler budget just for indie type games.
I took some time to address the most idiotic posts of people after me.
It's a pretty popular opinion that sc2 campaign was shit and I can't say I disagree with it either.
Maybe you think it's not as good as sc1 campaign, but calling it shit is ridiculous. I think you need to rethink your rationality about what makes something quality and what crap. Also saying utmost brain killing things like this post here below from another thread, painfully exposes your inability to recognize good design from bad.
Loved D2, not so excited about d3 anymore, was pumped as hell the first 2 years after the announcement, but since then every new release of info they have put out has lowered my expectations, and the beta was a huge disappointment to me.
Every single thing they released about diablo 3 gave me more hope that it's gonna be a fricking good game beyond my expectations. Only focus the game on PvE instead of fucking up both PvE and PvP at the same time. The focus on the viability of massive amounts of builds instead of balancing optimal builds. Legalizing illegal item trade with RMAH, giving hardcore a seperate AH with no RMAH. This all is great and awesome game design, and something so many other games fail at. Hearing them say this should make you beg on your knees crying for having more of these people with functional brains.
1. Kerrigan is still running around stating, that the swarm was hers. So why did they use the artefact in the first place? 2. Then there is the urge to introduce new characters, this stupid Zerg supplementary queen. In Diablo you get Asmodan. 3. The over-use of magic in SC. It was quite an awkward moment when they showed Templars in the classic using their psi powers / magics. It shouldn't be overdone. On the battlefield it wasn't directly shown, just indirectly with a small animation. On Shakuras the Protoss required a huge machine to make use of. Now these characters do all kinds of tmagic stuff without help in the videos. 4. The diablo trailer could also be a WoW trailer. It would just need another label. What's the difference between them? There is a lot of difference in style. Maybe this cinematic was too short to make it obvious to you, but still it should be obvious enough. 5. MoP Pandaren Monk training on stumps was inspired by some Anime.
1. Kerrigan was saying the swarm was hers when she was zerg. She wasnt saying it when she was human right? So turning her back to human again would..? 2. What are you talking about? Has Hots and d3 already been released? Do you know if these new chars are maybe awesome or crap? Stop dealing out judgement on something that is not ready to be judged at all. 3. It isn't overdone. I think you are whining about something unimportant. 4. The biggest difference is the style: artwork and design. Maybe this cinematic was too short to make it obvious to you, but still it should be obvious enough. 5. I herd Wotlk is just inspired by Sweden... Dude have you seen the zones and art of MoP?!?! Its amazing.
Please... This HotS video is pretty much craptastic. D3 one is nice but fails to invoke any kind of emotion, hardly a masterpiece. If you want good cinematics, here you are:
The utralisk in the end getting hit by a massive siege tank shot was pretty insane, all the cgi of a ravaged city, zerg invading, close up shots from zerg units, the great intro. If only craptastic it was the growl of kerrigan as human, but the overal clip is very well made. It might not be the best yet, but its only a clip, small fragments of what will be a bigger intro.
The d3 one is very nice, but fails to invoke any kind of emotion because you don't really have played d3. You havent fought off the endless waves of hell and felt true desperation as shown in the movie. The wc3 one gives emotion because YOU know what arthas has gone through, how he has been slowly falling into darkness and finally plunging into it with a heartbreaking assassination of his dear beloved farther. Some douche who hasnt played the game only sees an emo guy disliking flower petals, coming home to his dad, a royal prick of which we dont even get to hear his welcome speech, and watching him getting killed. Omg give me a tissue. ---- Many of you are nagging about the story and cliché of blizzard. I agree with some of it. Burning legion, burning hells. Deathwing sucks, cata and Mop feel like filler, etc. BUT, I want to say two things: One, do not godamn judge something that you know yet nothing about. MoP could be awesome with instead cuta panda's a new blazing tale of war between orcs and humans. Two, for me blizzard is more creative then only in their storytelling. They are great in their gameplay design and most of all art design. The power to create a real feeling world with each land giving an unique fragrance, a scent. That is for me, the most important creativity.
It's a pretty popular opinion that sc2 campaign was shit and I can't say I disagree with it either.
Maybe you think it's not as good as sc1 campaign, but calling it shit is ridiculous. I think you need to rethink your rationality about what makes something quality and what crap. Also saying utmost brain killing things like this post here below from another thread, painfully exposes your inability to recognize good design from bad.
Loved D2, not so excited about d3 anymore, was pumped as hell the first 2 years after the announcement, but since then every new release of info they have put out has lowered my expectations, and the beta was a huge disappointment to me.
Every single thing they released about diablo 3 gave me more hope that it's gonna be a fricking good game beyond my expectations. Only focus the game on PvE instead of fucking up both PvE and PvP at the same time. The focus on the viability of massive amounts of builds instead of balancing optimal builds. Legalizing illegal item trade with RMAH, giving hardcore a seperate AH with no RMAH. This all is great and awesome game design, and something so many other games fail at. Hearing them say this should make you beg on your knees crying for having more of these people with functional brains.
1. Kerrigan is still running around stating, that the swarm was hers. So why did they use the artefact in the first place? 2. Then there is the urge to introduce new characters, this stupid Zerg supplementary queen. In Diablo you get Asmodan. 3. The over-use of magic in SC. It was quite an awkward moment when they showed Templars in the classic using their psi powers / magics. It shouldn't be overdone. On the battlefield it wasn't directly shown, just indirectly with a small animation. On Shakuras the Protoss required a huge machine to make use of. Now these characters do all kinds of tmagic stuff without help in the videos. 4. The diablo trailer could also be a WoW trailer. It would just need another label. What's the difference between them? There is a lot of difference in style. Maybe this cinematic was too short to make it obvious to you, but still it should be obvious enough. 5. MoP Pandaren Monk training on stumps was inspired by some Anime.
1. Kerrigan was saying the swarm was hers when she was zerg. She wasnt saying it when she was human right? So turning her back to human again would..? 2. What are you talking about? Has Hots and d3 already been released? Do you know if these new chars are maybe awesome or crap? Stop dealing out judgement on something that is not ready to be judged at all. 3. It isn't overdone. I think you are whining about something unimportant. 4. The biggest difference is the style: artwork and design. Maybe this cinematic was too short to make it obvious to you, but still it should be obvious enough. 5. I herd Wotlk is just inspired by Sweden... Dude have you seen the zones and art of MoP?!?! Its amazing.
Please... This HotS video is pretty much craptastic. D3 one is nice but fails to invoke any kind of emotion, hardly a masterpiece. If you want good cinematics, here you are:
The utralisk in the end getting hit by a massive siege tank shot was pretty insane, all the cgi of a ravaged city, zerg invading, close up shots from zerg units, the great intro. If only craptastic it was the growl of kerrigan as human, but the overal clip is very well made. It might not be the best yet, but its only a clip, small fragments of what will be a bigger intro.
The d3 one is very nice, but fails to invoke any kind of emotion because you don't really have played d3. You havent fought off the endless waves of hell and felt true desperation as shown in the movie. The wc3 one gives emotion because YOU know what arthas has gone through, how he has been slowly falling into darkness and finally plunging into it with a heartbreaking assassination of his dear beloved farther. Some douche who hasnt played the game only sees an emo guy disliking flower petals, coming home to his dad, a royal prick of which we dont even get to hear his welcome speech, and watching him getting killed. Omg give me a tissue. ---- Many of you are nagging about the story and cliché of blizzard. I agree with some of it. Burning legion, burning hells. Deathwing sucks, cata and Mop feel like filler, etc. BUT, I want to say two things: One, do not godamn judge something that you know yet nothing about. MoP could be awesome with instead cuta panda's a new blazing tale of war between orcs and humans. Two, for me blizzard is more creative then only in their storytelling. They are great in their gameplay design and most of all art design. The power to create a real feeling world with each land giving an unique fragrance, a scent. That is for me, the most important creativity.
Ditto.
No, but seriously.. Most of these things you're responding to are a waste of time because the opinions of these people do not matter, true story. Making snap judgements as uninformed as these are reserved for high school students.
On April 17 2012 03:24 Eeevil wrote: Wait a minute. Blizzard has never been about revlutionary gameplay or original stories. The only original game Blizzard ever made was The Lost Vikings....maybe Diablo, I don't know enough of that game's history to know.
Blizzard makes games that are generally unoriginal, but of very high quality and for a wider range of PC power than other developpers.
And there are extremely few game storylines that are actually interesting, let alone original. Sc2 was disappointing for Blizzard standards, but the WOW storytelling has been improved a lot since vanilla....
BTW I never heard anyone talk about Diablo and it's great storyline. I never played these games, did D1 and 2 have an orignal story apart from Evil is threatening everything, you have to save everything by killing evil ?
Blizzard is playing it safe when it comes to game development, and that's just as it ought to be.
blizzard's strengths in their past games lied with the way the story was able to pull you in through the characters, writing, story pacing, etc. its true that overall, the genre, plots were clichéd, it were these things that made these past blizzard games so enjoyable. sc2 is so shallow, disconnected, and generally not very well fleshed out by comparison to its predecessors. of course none of us can speak for d3 but its only a couple of weeks till we find out ...
Having been always proud to have started WoW during its Beta phase and maintained a competitive position in progression (in the US, anyway), I remember "stopping" about 3 times - each roughly one month long. The whole "you'll come back to the World of Warcrack" was funny, yet true at the time.
The true "end" for WoW happened about a year ago, but every so often I'd think about starting again. Then Blizzcon came, and they revealed Mists of Pandaria. I'm not going to go around saying it's crap, as I haven't played the Beta (got an invite, gave it to a friend), but the reveal trailer itself made my stomach turn. I had spent the last 7, close to 8 years on this game and thinking about it just made me sick. Look at this POS. Is this really what captured my attention back when I was in high-school? Did I really devote 480 hours on my main, 200 on a single alt, and who knows how many more on the other 8, just to see it end like this?
Ughhh, I really hate all this SC2 campaign is shit talk. You havn't even played it all. You played one part of three, and to be honest I enjoyed WoL's story more than just the terran story in bw/sc1 personally.
I'd say specifically with wow, yes. There was a noticable drop-off in creativity. WOTLK was a pretty decent expansion content wise even if balance was imperfect. Cataclysm seems really god damn stupid recycled bullshit and mists of pandaria is just like some kind of cartoon for special needs children.
SC2 campaign was passable. Yeah I expected more, but it wasn't a massive let down either. Only time will tell on d3.
wait ,, what??? People actually enjoyed that piece of shit SC2 campaign story?? I mean yea the missions were fun but the dialogue/story/characters were fucking AWFUL .. and the retcon about the Overmind is just about the stupidest thing I ever had my brain suffer through, completely ruined the mood/feel of the Zerg race and overall SC story.
On April 16 2012 21:01 seodoth wrote: Please go back to wow, or try any other mmo and go back to wow Please replay the sc2 campaign or try any other rts and go back to starcraft 2 Please get a hold on diablo 3 beta, or get the game when its out, and compare it to any other rpg of the same nature. Maybe then you can develop some appreciation to the quality of blizzards games. Don't be so spoiled. Open your eyes for once and take a good look around you. Im getting sick of people thinking people working at blizzard think they just sit in offices on piles of wow subscriber money throwing darts at game design ideas on a huge chalkboard. Its so naive I have to puke. They are talented, VERY hard working people, and the great games we enjoy are a result of that.
Then finally the game that really made all this come to mind. Diablo 3. To be honest I don’t even get the story in D3 yet. I tried to read about it but no. How do you continue the story from D2: LoD? There is no reasonable line of story progress. The 3 brothers of hatred where killed. Their souls where literally smashed. The original hero from Diablo is dead. The world stone was destroyed = the world as we knew it had come to an end, a new era starts, the last elfes have sailed to Valinor.
And OP, please do some goddamn effort. The worldstone is destroyed so the boundaries are gone and heavens and hell can freely invade sanctuary. There are 2 other lords of hell left. Go watch the lore panel of blizzcon 2011, go watch the gameplay and AH panel. My god I was almost crying cause the development team was so good and had such good gamedesign philosophy. And people like you are fucking whining about blizzard turning soft and losing their creativity?
Also you give two high quality cgi clips and only give a ingame cgi in return. Why dont you take these recent master pieces??
Well yes there is a follow up story in D3 and yes Blizzard is famous for making epic CGI:s, no one is denying that. Blizzard can always scrap up some story though, I mean they have a least a couple writers working with them. The question is rather if there was meant to be one in the first place. I do not think the ending in D2 LoD is suitable for any kind of sequel and I dont think that person who made the story of D2 had the intention of making a follow up story. It certainly does not appear that way.
Look at the original Diablo, obviously supposed to have an sequel with a brilliant ending of letting the hero transform slowly into the evil he destroyed. Same with D2 end with the cliffhanger of Bhaal escaping his destruction. D3 has nothing in comparison; all the major connections to previous games have been cut.
If we go back Lord of the Rings for a moment it is a good example of this. The underlying message in ending of LoR is that the ages of other races has come to and end, the ancient evil has been vanquished (Morgoth/Sauron) and the age of men is dawning. That is our time and age starts, it symbolize that magic and the folklore once was true but now is gone from our world.
Notice that there are some similarities between D2LoD and LoR? The ancient evils was defeated, the old world stone was destroyed, the heavenly protectors are no longer needed as the prime evils are no more. Similiar to the ending of LoR and a very good ending of an epic story I think. <-- You are not supposed to make a sequel from this kind of story! It is like taking the Mona Lisa and use it as toilet paper.
But no of course you can always make a sequel if you want to. "Sauron did make an extra emergency ring in the Mount Doom, why would he not? Who wants to bet everything one card? So he just pretended to be dead for a couple of centuries, hiding in his "The One Ring 2.0". You know to lighten up the competition a bit. No more pointy ears to mess everything up this time!"
I give you Lord of the Rings 2! Arwen can even be in it, she should still be around! Cain anyone?
This is very much the same as Blizzard have done in D3. Or well I guess they put down a little bit more time then I did but otherwise it is the same. They want to use the brand Diablo cause it sells a lot of copies, even if it dont make any sense story wise. Okay no one can actually prove this and Blizzard would never ever in hell confirm this so if you want to believe that they made D3 cause the there was such a great story to be told there you go ahead.
Beause it would of course be completely unthinkable to make a new story in a new RPG, what a gamble, I am sure no one would give it any attention.
I don't know where to start. But I do agree with op. It is becoming an average big game company, but not like a great one which had been above its peers.
On April 17 2012 10:37 Arkless wrote: Ughhh, I really hate all this SC2 campaign is shit talk. You havn't even played it all. You played one part of three, and to be honest I enjoyed WoL's story more than just the terran story in bw/sc1 personally.
Yeah I would like to give some credit to SC2 to. I complain a lot about Blizzard here but I actaully think SC2 is the exception in the last 6-7 years.
I think the story is fine in SC2, maybe a bit to similiar to WC3 but still not bad. Also it make sense to have a follow up story from BW which I think is really important as mentioned in previous post The twist with the overmind was really nice and well I just think SC2 over all is good game in both singel and multiplayer.
Not to mentioned the great development it is making for E-Sport right now.
BW's story is full of cliche's aswell and the campaign is actually very straight forward you only have to build a base and kill the enemy base. Gaming companies aren't there to provide amazing stories they're there to create amazing games and then you can create a backstory with it. If you want an actual good story go read a good book and stop playing games.
Blizzard is still full of innovation in design. You just 1) need to know where to look and 2) take into account that the further you push the envelope the harder it is to innovate further.
What's really happening is the increase in whiny little entitled kids who sweep their eyes around and quickly declare something sucks because it doesn't immediately blow their mind.
On April 17 2012 19:21 Newbistic wrote: Blizzard is still full of innovation in design. You just 1) need to know where to look and 2) take into account that the further you push the envelope the harder it is to innovate further.
What's really happening is the increase in whiny little entitled kids who sweep their eyes around and quickly declare something sucks because it doesn't immediately blow their mind.
Please show me the positive innovation with Bnet2.0 compared to... WC3 Bnet or Dota2 online client. It's not innovative, it's plain worse than its predecessors AND its concurrence.
And please, at least give me an example of something truely innovative.. .. Where is this "good" innovation you speak off?
On April 17 2012 10:04 Xpace wrote: Did I really devote 480 hours on my main, 200 on a single alt, and who knows how many more on the other 8, just to see it end like this?
It's sad. Real sad.
Age : 1791 days 10 hours 56 minutes 18 seconds. Let's talk dedication (not WoW though) And that's just time actively logged in.
On April 17 2012 19:21 Newbistic wrote: Blizzard is still full of innovation in design. You just 1) need to know where to look and 2) take into account that the further you push the envelope the harder it is to innovate further.
What's really happening is the increase in whiny little entitled kids who sweep their eyes around and quickly declare something sucks because it doesn't immediately blow their mind.
Please show me the positive innovation with Bnet2.0 compared to... WC3 Bnet or Dota2 online client. It's not innovative, it's plain worse than its predecessors AND its concurrence.
And please, at least give me an example of something truely innovative.. .. Where is this "good" innovation you speak off?
Well, innovation is everywhere! Queens, colossuses, void rays, vikings! All new and never before seen. /sarcasm
And yeah, Bnet2.0 is one of the worst things to ever happen. WC3-era Bnet was very, very good. Stuff that HoN and DotA2 have currently is way beyond even that.
On April 17 2012 10:04 Xpace wrote: Did I really devote 480 hours on my main, 200 on a single alt, and who knows how many more on the other 8, just to see it end like this?
It's sad. Real sad.
Age : 1791 days 10 hours 56 minutes 18 seconds. Let's talk dedication (not WoW though) And that's just time actively logged in.
On April 17 2012 19:21 Newbistic wrote: Blizzard is still full of innovation in design. You just 1) need to know where to look and 2) take into account that the further you push the envelope the harder it is to innovate further.
What's really happening is the increase in whiny little entitled kids who sweep their eyes around and quickly declare something sucks because it doesn't immediately blow their mind.
Please show me the positive innovation with Bnet2.0 compared to... WC3 Bnet or Dota2 online client. It's not innovative, it's plain worse than its predecessors AND its concurrence.
And please, at least give me an example of something truely innovative.. .. Where is this "good" innovation you speak off?
Well, innovation is everywhere! Queens, colossuses, void rays, vikings! All new and never before seen. /sarcasm
And yeah, Bnet2.0 is one of the worst things to ever happen. WC3-era Bnet was very, very good. Stuff that HoN and DotA2 have currently is way beyond even that.
I feel that HoN and DotA (as well as LoL) all have very good out of game interfaces precisely because they modeled themselves off of WC3. You don't need to be terribly innovative with that stuff, but it just has to do its job, which unfortunately bnet 2.0 does not do.
EPT
