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On April 04 2012 05:11 Azuroz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 05:07 isleyofthenorth wrote:
Really how is this more frowned upon than ads for liquor...(not that there were any in esports) The korean brood war team CJ Entus was sponsored by a korean bear company called Hite, and they even renamed their team to Hite Entus, atleast for a while.
Technically the Hite sponsorship came from OGN Sparkyz when they had to merge with Entus because their team was crippled by the Match fixing scandal. I think they had some time leftover in the contract lthat CJ had to uphold.
But there was some criticism when OGN announced the Hite sponsorship. Nothing was ever done about it though.
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On April 04 2012 06:17 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 06:05 TrickyGilligan wrote:On April 04 2012 05:32 StarBrift wrote:On April 04 2012 05:20 Leth0 wrote:On April 04 2012 05:14 StarBrift wrote:On April 04 2012 05:10 Leth0 wrote:On April 04 2012 05:02 StarBrift wrote:On April 04 2012 04:30 D_K_night wrote:On April 04 2012 03:26 StarBrift wrote:
When stuff like this happens I wish that allt he progressives and rational thinkers in this world could get on a huge space craft and just go live on another planet. The only reason this is a problem is that backwards minded people arbitrarily associates porn (or to a lesser extent sex) with bad morality.
There is nothing morally wrong with Brazzers buisness. They produce a form of entertainment that is consumed by a great ammount of people over the world. They are not a skeevy site that deals in trafficing or forces women into starring in their movies. If you want to make an argument that they are portraying women in a bad light then sure make that argument, but some people will make the argument that porn empowers women. I'm not going to go into that huge debate right now though.
Now I don't personally get off on main stream porn like what Brazzers do. It's just evident to me that the women in the movies are mostly not enjoying what's being done to them (as in they wouldn't have sex like that in their private life). That being said, porn is not bad in itself. It is an industry that provides pleasure by showing consensual sex between adults (if done legally). If one looks at that and says "well gosh darn that is immoral", that person is illogical and wrong.
Having young kids watch porn is something I think we can all agree on is immoral becuase they are too young to understand what is real and not. But I don't think its up to all of society to shield kids from porn at any cost. Any sensible parent will have his kids computer blocking porn sites and as long as no actual sex is going on in public that child should be old enough to understand what porn is when he/she is first exposed to it. I also don't see how a Brazzers logo on someones shirt is going to expose a child to porn.
So the corporations shy away from asociating with porn because they are afraid of the backlash it might have on their own buisness. That backlash is built on a vast majority of people being idiots. There is no nicer way to say it. Thinking that porn is immoral without taking a look at the facts or even distinguishing between different kinds of porn is simply stupid. Apparently a large enough ammount of these companies customers are this misinformed and thus we have to endure this stupidity.
This is why when I say I want to go far away from this planet I'm wishing it because of the events or sponsors that make these decisions. I'm wishing it because of the immense stupidity of ordinary people in our world and their inability to educate themselves on very basic subjects. That's all cool, but remember you're from Sweden. And the way of thinking in your country differs dramatically from say, people in America. Here in America, just like anywhere else, there are curious double standards. Explicit violence is fine, but sex aired on primetime TV is a no-no(until a certain late time period). Think about all the things that the US considers "scandals" but are tame when viewed by Europeans. The key here is not trying to change people/cultures/regional differences, but simply acknowledging that these differences do exist, and we have to just work with it. So if a BRAZZERS advertises with just a mugshot of one of their actresses(let's say oh, Aletta Ocean) alongside a Starcraft 2 tourney. In Europe people might see that, recognize it, but not necessarily put two-and-two together and automatically think it's a bad thing. They'll probably just see it as "oh, that's Brazzers advertising...oh this video game SC2 has a tourney for $$, cool" But here in America? No man. People will have a double standard. They'll see Aletta Ocean, know that she's a porn star, and then they'll think "so now video games are mixing with porn? forget it, this is why video gamers are pathetic". That's just how it is. Not to say that BRAZZERS couldn't make headway into the video industry. I think they can, actually. But not for SC2. For Street Fighter and fighting game tourneys...I could see it happen. It's because it's due to an entirely different sub-culture and arguably completely different audience that fighting games draw in. What you're saying is correct of course. My point is that what you call cultural differences in this case I call bigotry, stupidity and unreason. The points that I made shows this pretty well I think. When a majority of people dislike this based on an arbitrary moral standard triggered by a knee jerk emotional reaction then that's pretty close to as ignorant as it gets. Take note that I didn't put the US on blast in my post, you said it was the US. I'm saying regardless of where someone is from, when they reason in such ways, they are ignorant and unreasonable. Cultural differences is not a cloak that people can deflect all critisism with. I want to clarify that what I'm talking about in the above paragraph is the damnation of all things porn by the general public. Not the decision to disallow this sponsorship by any company or tournament host. The people who run video game tournaments have nothing to gain by collaberating with a porn industry, how is that 'bigoted , stupid, or unreasonable' , it's REALISTIC. You can talk down to people all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself, that doesn't change the fact that these 2 industries have nothing to gain from working together and in fact 1 has everything to lose. It's customary to read the post of the person you're replying to you know. If you had you would have understood that my beef is not with the industry that is forced to make these decisions. It's with the general public that hold such opinions based knee jerk reactions instead of actually looking into what this company is and how it affects the world. The fact that people would get outraged by a porn company discreetly sponsoring anyone is what makes me wish I could live with people whose moral compass has moved on since the middle ages. You are assuming people have something against porn when in fact most people dont. That doesn't mean it needs to be everywhere. It's distastefull, Some people would get outraged yea? Some people would get outraged if they changed the ingredients for doritos. Doesn't mean you can generalize and just say "america fucking stupid" it's obviously just trying to start shit for no reason. OF COURSE people would react negatively to porn being intergrated into a video game culture since IT MAKES NO SENSE and has no legitimate reason for being there. People need to hop off this bandwagon of "I'm a big boy , porn is normal why shouldn't it be there" Ask yourself "why SHOULD it be there?" Again you reply without reading through my posts. It's quite sad that you go on some kind of crusade against me without even taking 1 minute out of your life to read through something you're replying to. I never said this was a phenomenon that is based in america, that other guy did. I clearly stated in that post that my opnion is that where ever you are in the world, if you hold that opinion, you have either not looked at the entire picture or you have a very ancient unreasonable set of morals. I can conceede that my choice of wording in "a vast majority of the general public" was grossly overstating how many people actually care about this. But the point is that enough people care for companies to have a serious risk attached to these things. That may not be a majority, But it's surely numbers that are big enough to matter economically even for big companies. As for it making no sense, that's obviously false. A player wants a sponsor to send him to tournaments, a company wants to increase their exposure and the target audience is the overwhelming demographic for that company. Nothing can make more sense to me. Also. Something being "distasteful" does not mean anything useful. It's your personal opinion. Distasteful is what old people say about young peoples clothes. It's what some people say about others musical interests. I don't find porn advertising distasteful as long as there is no actual porn in the advertisement. You're arguing from the false assumption that that you represent the majority viewpoint, and the only opposition to this is an outspoken, bigoted minority. I want to say first that I agree with you, it really shouldn't matter what kind of business sponsors something, as long as it's legal, people should get over it. However, you have to understand that your viewpoint is extremely narrow. Ok, maybe this is fine in Europe. Do you know what percentage of the world's population lives in Europe? It's only 11%. So, even if every single person in Europe agreed with you (they don't by the way), you would have a small impact on the overall perception of this issue. We want ESPORTS to be global, do you have any idea how poorly something like this would go over in India? It's easy to dismiss cultural differences between the US and Europe as just backwardness and bigotry, but do you really want to go after 90% of the world's population with that argument? Also, you're arguing that the only possible reason for people to be against this is some sort of prejudice. This is also blatantly false. I know several forward thinking women who identify themselves as feminists who would be extremely against a Brazzer's sponsorship for ESPORTS. They're not against porn in and of itself, but feel that society's growing acceptance of hypersexualized and often derogatory images of women can only lead to problems. Keep in mind these are very reasonable people, not the militant "all men are evil rapist" feminists I'm sure a lot of you are picturing. This issue would clearly fit into that category, since there's no real link between video games and sex, other than both sell quite well. So, are these women bigoted? Can you dismiss their argument out of hand because you're from Europe and thus represent the enlightened, majority viewpoint? I don't think I've ever stated that I held a majority viewpoint. Quite on the contrary I have said several times that I'm in the minority and that's why I made my joke about the spaceship etc. I do however claim to be right. I do this based on the arguments I put forth. You are one of the few people that has actually contested them with a real meaningful argument not based on "the world is fucked now live with it". The feminism perspective is something I have respect for. I agree that women are depicted very unrealistically in mainstream porn. I do not however agree that said porn should be shunned and destroyed because of this. People need to be able to take responsibility for their own actions. Being an adult and not understanding that Brazzers type porn does not reflect reality is a personal problem. It's not Brazzers responsibility to inform people that what they're watching is a fictional fantasy world. People should be intelligent enough to understand that at an adult age. When we come to teens that question becomes more of a gray area. But as I said earlier I think that's why we need sex ed and paren't need to speak to their kids about the fact that this porn is not real.
This is a fairly accurate summation. No one feels the need to tell people that fairy tales aren't real, yet adults cannot understand that the scenes depicted in a porn video are intended to be fake and movie-esque?
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Why do Brazzers need to sponsor esports? If you are a gamer and you dont know Brazzers, there are something wrong with you. Even my gf barely play games know what Brazzers mean.
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On April 04 2012 07:23 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:16 Phobbers wrote:On April 04 2012 07:06 Leth0 wrote:On April 04 2012 07:01 StarBrift wrote:On April 04 2012 06:53 Leth0 wrote:On April 04 2012 06:50 Jerglings wrote:On April 04 2012 06:47 Leth0 wrote:On April 04 2012 06:44 StarBrift wrote:On April 04 2012 06:29 Leth0 wrote:
Here's a question for all you champions that think a video game tournament is the perfect place for porn site to cross promote. What does it bring to the table?.....What audience is being drawn in due to the presence of brazzers?, Now compare that to what could be lost.
Answer that question and you will understand why this is a bad idea. I don't think you understand the point of sponsors to professional sports or gaming. The sponsors job is to pay players and / or teams and help them excell. The players bring in viewers becuase people are there to watch a competition. These viewers then go out and buy the product that the sponsor advertises. Sponsors are not supposed to draw in people. No one watches the Super Bowl because Coca Cola advertises during it. They watch it because of the teams competing. So yeah, a company can scare people away from an event. But it will not draw people into it. If you spent half the time you do prosecuting people with sarky comments by reading your own posts then you could find very obvious answers for your questions. "What does it bring to the table?" Money. You are already wrong. The sponsors job is to make an intelligent investment and get a RETURN on that investment.. Yeah that's actually exactly what he said. Sponsor supports player --> Player does well --> Player's viewers support sponsor. That sounds like an investment to me. Players doing well is only a fraction of what gets a sponsor a return on that investment. Sponsors are not paying people to excell, they are paying them to help sell their license. HUGE difference. Easy example, Idra has been playing like shit lately, but he helps promote his brand more so than someone like "socke" does by winning some small tournament Both me and Jerglings have in our post outlined the exact process of how a sponsor makes money. I suggest you being a fucking douchebag and ignoring VERY CLEAR explanations and then follow up by trying to ridicule us by deconstructing and misquoting. Either way I'm done arguing with you. Several times you have commented on my and others posts without fully reading them. Misquoting and taking stuff out of context. You have made some of the poorest arguments I've ever seen on TL and that says a lot. My only regret is that I wasted close to 2 hours in this thread when all you do is attack people constantly. I really hope you find some other outlet of your need for personal vendettas so that you can stop plaguing people trying to have a serious discussion. Have a nice evening. I've misquoted nothing, read everything before responding, and articulated my points as well as I'm going to do. Meanwhile you're the one calling people "fucking douchebags" and talking down to us as if our opinions on the matter make us 'unworthy' of talking to you. It's laughable to think you are trying to have a 'serious' conversation after calling us all bigots and ignorants. It's all to obvious that you are incapable of having a 'serious' conversation without getting so emotionally invested that in the end you just resort to petty insults and lashing out at anyone you disagree with. So I'm done talking to you. Weren't you being Mr. Macho man earlier saying people need to go outside and find a girl? On April 04 2012 03:12 Leth0 wrote:
If you are so hard up that you need porn at video game tournaments than you need to go outside and find a woman. I'd say you're talking down to a few people. Edit: Also done with this thread, it's been somewhat of a nightmare with the arguments going on. How is that macho? I stand by that statement. That's not talking down to anyone, I didn't point someone out and say "you need to go find a woman" I said what I said and I meant it. If you are so hard up that porn sponsors for a video game tournament entices you than you probably should find a woman. Like it should be known, a sponsor, will sponsor something, or someone in order to help promote their brand, license or w/e it is they do. It doesn't make sense for this scene.
Do you honestly think that telling someone how they should live their life based on how "hard up" they are isn't talking down to someone?
It is.
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Who are you building "esports" for?, I wonder, is it not for yourselves and people like yourselves?
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Here's my perspective.
Porn is degrading and disgusting. Porn is however...a multibillon dollar industry (E-Sports isn't anywhere close) & brazzers is one of it's top franchises.
Children watch G4 (A Gaming Network) & porn/somewhat raunchy commericals are advertised on that station and I haven't really heard of anybody complaining about it too much (I just ignore the commericals). I think it's good for e-sports while in general being a very bad thing.
The good thing is the revenue for the advertisment. The bad thing is the message the advertisment is putting out there, such as cigarettes or beer but realistically porn doesn't hurt anybody (no pun intended) for just looking at it whereas the effects of smoking a cigarette or drinking beer could cause. I mean you guys "promote" Barcrafts which encourages people to drink (somebody has to drive home too) because I don't know anybody who goes to a bar just to go lol.
I would say that it's fine unless the commercials were too graphic.
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I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened.
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On April 04 2012 14:44 Proko wrote:
I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened.
That's what you say now until it comes time for your favorite player to play in one of those "foreign" tournaments. I'd bet you'd watch it regardless of the advertisements.
Don't be such a drama queen...
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On April 04 2012 11:22 windsupernova wrote:
So basically it sums up to this?
People in favour:¨Dude, money is money, and I totally watch porn its cool. And besides we are indie yo.¨
People againt: ¨Dude this can scare future sponsors(and thus future money). If we want SC2 to grow to bigger audiences we have to be careful about our image¨
Really guys, I don´t think many people are against porn. Most of the people against are more concerned about the image that we want to project towards the mainstream.
I don´t know why people have such a hard time understanding that we live in a society and that the image that you project actually matters a lot. This is not a cartoon where people will see how great of a person you are eventually and will love you. 1st impressions matter a lot.
On another note, I was talking about this with a friend who has 2 kids, one 8 and one 9 years old. Dude is not some kind of religious nutjob, nor does he thinks that sex is something that someone should be ashamed of. He saw this and was worried a lot about this. Kids are curious creatures and they do look up stuff they see on the internet. Its a real concern and its not only ultra conservative nutjobs who may be turned off by this.And before someone tries to comment on the hypocrisy of watching highly cartoonish and stylized violence vs his kid being potentially being exposed to porn realize that its completely different.
The SC2 community might be different in this regard, but the FGC does not spend much time, if any, browsing sponsors' websites, because they simply do not have any products to push. Whether it is DMG, FingerCramp, EG, Complexity, Broken Tier, vVv, Marn, eLive; the only exceptions being Madcatz and Razer (who sponsors one player). We know their respective players already and know they most often have their flights and expenses paid when attending tournaments, but it ends there. Players are not required to hop on stream and rave about their sponsors' good deeds, nor are the streams plagued with said sponsors ads. So from this optic, having LI Joe have "BRZ" before his ID, changes absolutely nothing. EG doesn't lose face because another player in the community is sponsored by an entity they do not wish to associate themselves with. This is not meant to initiate the community to porn (the internet alone is doing a great job in that regard), so aside from a few select players being taken care of (and not in the way people might be inclined to think), I don't see how this is changing much.
When it comes to Brazzers sponsored tournaments, I can see how that could cause an issue, but none of that is set in stone, and Capcom will most likely object to it anyways. I think people are just overreacting.
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On April 04 2012 13:45 Prime`Rib wrote:
Why do Brazzers need to sponsor esports? If you are a gamer and you dont know Brazzers, there are something wrong with you. Even my gf barely play games know what Brazzers mean.
That proves nothing...what does Brazzers have to do with gaming anyway...
News flash, more people watch porn than basement dwelling nergins.
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I haven't heard about Brazzers until this sponsorship. I have heard of Bangbus so i'm not completely out of the loop or deny that I watch porn.
Oh man, I did not know chicks could spray like that.
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On April 04 2012 14:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 14:44 Proko wrote:
I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened. That's what you say now until it comes time for your favorite player to play in one of those "foreign" tournaments. I'd bet you'd watch it regardless of the advertisements. Don't be such a drama queen...
Porn is degrading and victimizes women, this is not something I'm willing to compromise on. You might assume I'm the only one, who feels this way but you're wrong.
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the question is.
will we be seeing brazzer cameos on sc2 tournements?
and sc2 cameos in brazzer films?
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On April 04 2012 15:22 broz0rs wrote:
I haven't heard about Brazzers until this sponsorship. I have heard of Bangbus so i'm not completely out of the loop or deny that I watch porn.
Oh man, I did not know chicks could spray like that.
This is it. This is how we grow eSports :D
Now we just need Brazzers to support SC2.
Can't wait for Live on Three to talk about this.
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On April 04 2012 15:23 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 14:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 04 2012 14:44 Proko wrote:
I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened. That's what you say now until it comes time for your favorite player to play in one of those "foreign" tournaments. I'd bet you'd watch it regardless of the advertisements. Don't be such a drama queen... Porn is degrading and victimizes women, this is not something I'm willing to compromise on. You might assume I'm the only one, who feels this way but you're wrong.
I am more offended that you consider it a problem that women have the choice to be adult actresses if they want to. It's not like they're being forced into it. If you don't like it, don't watch, but there's nothing wrong with it.
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On April 04 2012 15:32 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 15:23 Proko wrote:On April 04 2012 14:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 04 2012 14:44 Proko wrote:
I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened. That's what you say now until it comes time for your favorite player to play in one of those "foreign" tournaments. I'd bet you'd watch it regardless of the advertisements. Don't be such a drama queen... Porn is degrading and victimizes women, this is not something I'm willing to compromise on. You might assume I'm the only one, who feels this way but you're wrong. I am more offended that you consider it a problem that women have the choice to be adult actresses if they want to. It's not like they're being forced into it. If you don't like it, don't watch, but there's nothing wrong with it.
It's not just the actress you should be concerned about. P.S. if you think everyone who does porn is treated well, fairly and is perfectly happy with the decision you're deluded.
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On April 04 2012 15:32 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 15:23 Proko wrote:On April 04 2012 14:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:On April 04 2012 14:44 Proko wrote:
I would quit following foreign tournaments really quick if something like this happened. That's what you say now until it comes time for your favorite player to play in one of those "foreign" tournaments. I'd bet you'd watch it regardless of the advertisements. Don't be such a drama queen... Porn is degrading and victimizes women, this is not something I'm willing to compromise on. You might assume I'm the only one, who feels this way but you're wrong. I am more offended that you consider it a problem that women have the choice to be adult actresses if they want to. It's not like they're being forced into it. If you don't like it, don't watch, but there's nothing wrong with it.
I should also say that if you're invoking a quasi feminist argument on this subject you need to spend some time reading up on your theory. There's a big problem with the objectification of women in our culture already.
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Porn is good, i like porn.
It is porn, that made me get closer to a girl and educated wtf to do in bed.
Hell, I've watched brazzers so many times with my GF.
If commercials won't be explicted it's fine.
Let's not lie to ourselves, almost every teen is watching porn, so what bad it is if esports get some profit out of it?
Also about bad attitude to womans - well, try to get a girl in a bed and do her so hard, like in the movie you've seen recently (^^) she'll thank you after you are done.
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On April 04 2012 17:37 Rimak wrote:
Porn is good, i like porn.
It is porn, that made me get closer to a girl and educated wtf to do in bed.
Hell, I've watched brazzers so many times with my GF.
If commercials won't be explicted it's fine.
Let's not lie to ourselves, almost every teen is watching porn, so what bad it is if esports get some profit out of it?
Also about bad attitude to womans - well, try to get a girl in a bed and do her so hard, like in the movie you've seen recently (^^) she'll thank you after you are done.
Well as said in the OP - that's not the problem. The problem is that every SC2 progamer already has a sponsor or a team with sponsors, who would not like to be affiliated with the porn industry and all it brings with it.
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EPT
