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On April 06 2016 06:44 travis wrote:
Well, it doesn't really take any energy to be against something you think is wrong. And if it does, then I think that it would be virtuous to find the energy to take any sort of stand against it.
If you don't care about that being in the game, or if you think it was a fun or good thing to have in the game - then that's cool. But if your argument is that other people shouldn't care because "it's not really a big deal", then that's a horrible argument. But you should know that. Small bad things are still bad.
edit:
regarding the line, I don't even get it. Is that like a joke, or what? Are they making fun of themselves?
Basically the whole GamerGate thing started after a whole bunch of shady relations between games journalists and the companies they were supposed to cover (and collusion with other journalists) came to light. A bunch of people started using the hashtag in harassing tweets and messages to people who were the subject of those articles. Others tried to pull it back and remind the public that GamerGate was "actually about ethics in games journalism, not harassment". People on the other side took the first half of that statement "actually about ethics in games journalism" and made it into a meme with villians and people doing horrible stuff saying it to excuse themselves.
So it's very much an "anti-GamerGate meme". The only reason I really care is that it's jarring to have something like that coming out of a character like Minsc's mouth because it's out of character and kind of out of place. But it's really not a big deal, just icing compared to the other stuff.
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Haven't played the expansion yet but if that cleric's a token LGBT character like some of which bioware has made in mass effect/da then it's perfectly fine if people are criticising that. If the character screams "hey look at me im gay" at every turn, it can get old fast.
I wonder if it's due to David Gaider's involvement. But then again his writing in general isn't bad.
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On April 06 2016 07:49 Andre wrote:
I wonder if it's due to David Gaider's involvement. But then again his writing in general isn't bad.
His writing is very hit-or-miss. He wrote BG2 as well as the NWN/KotOR-era Bioware games. But he also wrote the entire Dragon Age series, including the atrocity that is DA2.
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Well damn. I was hoping SoD was going to be THE expansion that brought me back into the Baldur's Gate fold, but if the bugs and writing are that bad, I'll continue with what I have now. I just wonder how anyone could possibly screw this up this badly.
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On April 06 2016 08:01 chaos021 wrote:
Well damn. I was hoping SoD was going to be THE expansion that brought me back into the Baldur's Gate fold, but if the bugs and writing are that bad, I'll continue with what I have now. I just wonder how anyone could possibly screw this up this badly.
I'm not sure how you came to those conclusions. People in this thread have added pretty much nothing to talk about those things. I have no idea whether or not the game is buggy and the writing i have no idea about either since the talk has been about a trans gender cleric and Minsc spouting a sentence that can be linked to the gamer gate which i personally wouldn't have even known. I'll start playing and make my own mind about it since pretty much nothing of value has been said in this thread.
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On April 06 2016 07:49 Andre wrote:
Haven't played the expansion yet but if that cleric's a token LGBT character like some of which bioware has made in mass effect/da then it's perfectly fine if people are criticising that. If the character screams "hey look at me im gay" at every turn, it can get old fast.
I wonder if it's due to David Gaider's involvement. But then again his writing in general isn't bad.
Nobody is screaming I am gay. This trans character is a cleric that provides cleric services and tell you his/her story if you ask about a strange name. That character could have told you he named himself that because of 100 000 different reasons and people would not be up in arms, only because the story is a trans story people are up in arms. That is only difference.
Gaider didn't do anything for this expansion, he got hired after it was all done.
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On April 06 2016 07:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2016 07:49 Andre wrote:
I wonder if it's due to David Gaider's involvement. But then again his writing in general isn't bad. His writing is very hit-or-miss. He wrote BG2 as well as the NWN/KotOR-era Bioware games. But he also wrote the entire Dragon Age series, including the atrocity that is DA2.
Gaider didn't write for BG2, he designed levels and encounters.
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On April 06 2016 08:01 chaos021 wrote:
Well damn. I was hoping SoD was going to be THE expansion that brought me back into the Baldur's Gate fold, but if the bugs and writing are that bad, I'll continue with what I have now. I just wonder how anyone could possibly screw this up this badly.
Bugs are not that bad and writing is mostly good. Only a very few cases of LGBT exist if that bothers you. And those parts are also not written bad if LGBT content does not bother you.
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On April 06 2016 15:27 -Archangel- wrote:
Gaider didn't write for BG2, he designed levels and encounters.
So he did. Thanks for the correction.
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On April 06 2016 15:33 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2016 15:27 -Archangel- wrote:
Gaider didn't write for BG2, he designed levels and encounters. So he did. Thanks for the correction.
He was also one behind the popular Ascension mod for Bg2: ToB which makes ToB much more challenging.
He is liked by hardcore communities for that part of his game producing life and they wish he would go back to doing that instead of writing LGBT characters.
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I remember back when the Enhanced Edition was announced, I was so happy that Baldur's Gate games will live on (since the third game was rather unlikely) and have the additional content. Yet, the more I saw and knew about this edition, the more worried I was becoming. Then I finally played it and was simply disappointed. This is not what I was hoping for, instead of preserving what was unique about the game (cutscenes, stone UI, character animations, engine) they shoved BG2 engine and made it simply ugly and unbalanced for me. I played it until about chapter 5 and gave up on it. I was still browsing through the forums for some time, hoping that it'll be improved over time, but none of it came into fruition.
I left the EE and came back to play the original. It's still running without any problems on my pc and I enjoy it as much as I did in the past. Then the new expansion was announced, I saw the trailer and it didn't impress im all that much. Now this drama unfolded and it just makes me sad what Beamdog has done to BG and that soon on GoG the originals will be sold as a bonus to EEs. I see them as a separate games and would want to keep it as such.
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On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is.
You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media.
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On April 06 2016 07:55 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2016 07:49 Andre wrote:
I wonder if it's due to David Gaider's involvement. But then again his writing in general isn't bad. His writing is very hit-or-miss. He wrote BG2 as well as the NWN/KotOR-era Bioware games. But he also wrote the entire Dragon Age series, including the atrocity that is DA2.
DA2's problem isn't the writing though. It's a console oriented cash grab, that was cranked out in too short a time.
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On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media.
If you read the negative reviews, some of the most scathing ones are from trans people, which kind of blows your theory out of the water. The issue is that her dialogue is basically, "HI, I AM A TRANS CHARACTER, I DO TRANS THINGS, YOU SHOULDN'T HATE ME BECAUSE I'M TRANS", which makes her the worst kind of token character. It's beyond bad writing, it's offensive to the source material. The writer even said the only reason that she put the character in was to push a social agenda and she didn't care that the dialogue was "fake or forced" (her words not mine). If you want references, look up my previous post and go through the articles and GoG reviews.
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On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media.
Thanks for making it obvious you are not actually interested in an honest discussion. I'm not going to participate in your shit flinging. Have a good day.
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On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media.
Are you implying that everyone here who doesn't like the state of the game is doing it because of gamergate? That's a pretty bold claim, and a strange one because the people who keep up bringing up gamergate specifically are on your side of the argument.
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On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media.
Its is weird, because poorly written characters have existed in many games on mass. The fact this one is getting such special attention is baffling since it is just a back story to a minor character.
On a side note: Our Lord and Savior, Ed Greenwood had some stuff to say about all of this:
https://www.facebook.com/TheEdVerse/?fref=nf
I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.
Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn't a sex game, and we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.
But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to "spend time as the other" to learn what life is like.
So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I've never met a gamer yet who doesn't tinker with every adventure to "make it their own" at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don't suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.
But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn't blow your mind. If it's not for you, that's fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don't scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn't extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn't been rectified, no one made me a god. (I'm still crushed.)
And another thing: I have always felt HONOURED to have met, worked with, and enjoyed the work of so many talented women in all of my professional fields (library work has traditionally been dominated by females, gaming hasn't, and fiction-writing was male-dominated when I was young, but has steadily shifted throughout my lifetime). Does Paul Jaquays becoming Jennell Jaquays rob his, now her, artwork or game design or prose of one iota of its richness and the enjoyment it gives me? NO! And how by the Nine flaming Hells does one human being made happier by being the gender they prefer to be lessen my own security, or happiness, or make my life the less?
Sheesh.
The world has REAL problems, people. Telling someone else how to behave in bed (or dress, or what jobs they can hold down) isn't one of them. Or shouldn't be.
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On April 06 2016 23:37 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media. If you read the negative reviews, some of the most scathing ones are from trans people, which kind of blows your theory out of the water. The issue is that her dialogue is basically, "HI, I AM A TRANS CHARACTER, I DO TRANS THINGS, YOU SHOULDN'T HATE ME BECAUSE I'M TRANS", which makes her the worst kind of token character. It's beyond bad writing, it's offensive to the source material. The writer even said the only reason that she put the character in was to push a social agenda and she didn't care that the dialogue was "fake or forced" (her words not mine). If you want references, look up my previous post and go through the articles and GoG reviews.
Except the conversation is not like that. it is more or less normal except a good point about you asking about a strange name and getting a life story. But the overreaction to that is bad. If that life story was something expected people would not be overreacting like this. Barely anyone would probably even mention it, they would just think whoever wrote that had a bad day or something.
Now if whole game was full of bad writing that is another thing but all the examples of "bad writing" had something to do with LGBT or GG so yea, that is the real issue, not bad writing.
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On April 06 2016 23:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2016 23:19 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 23:57 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:55 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 23:34 -Archangel- wrote:On April 05 2016 23:16 Ghostcom wrote:On April 05 2016 22:13 Plansix wrote:On April 05 2016 21:49 Thax wrote:On April 05 2016 17:33 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Well if Minsc making jokes about gamergate is what you want in a Baldurs Gate game then go for it.
Personally im sick of SJWs ruining everything they touch.This one gets thrown to the curb with the new ghostbusters movie for me. Anything that pisses of goobergoobers is a win to me, no matter how poorly written. You trolls get worked up over the most ridiculous shit, then throw a tantrum when called out on it, yet somehow "SJW" are ruining things. Uhu. The lack of self-awareness is staggering. “SJW, ruining video games by forcing trans characters into a world filled with elves and dragons.” I, too, am enjoying the fake internet outrage and the fear of the SJW bogyman here to force their political agenda on video games. Mind you, its not like games were devoid of politics if they don't have trans characters, but never mind that. You have got to stop this ridiculous reductio ad absurdum way of spamming these forums. Keep it in the US politics thread where it apparently belongs. The criticisms of the trans cleric is not the presence of said person, it is the shitty characterwriting of said person (which multiple trans people (hurr durr on the internet everyone can be a trans) have pointed out as well). So what? Show me another game where people make such big problem because of one not good enough conversation that does not involve LGBT? You don't have it? You don't say. How unexpected. I am not part of LGBT community and don't really care what happens in that world (I consider myself neutral on the whole issue) but acting like this shitshow that happened around this expansion is just about bad writing is insulting to any intelligent person. If you want to argue, how about you let me present my arguments and focus on presenting yours? People complain about bad writing all the time - likely because very often games are poorly written (or have a bad story but are well written). Take the shitstorm following ME:3 and their ending. Shit, take Starcraft 2 on these very forums and the shitshow we saw after all of the 3 expansions complaining about the story. The third time it was kept to a dull roar because most had come to expect a shitty story which might explain why you don't remember it. There is a reason why Half Life 3 has not been produced yet and it is not because they are afraid of it not selling, but because it can ONLY disappoint. The shitshow that is happening around this expansion is akin to what happened with the new trilogy of Star Wars (1-3) compared to the originals (4-6). There is a lot of nostalgia surrounding the BG-series and this expansion is buggy, poorly written, and failed to live up to the hype. This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. EDIT: I'm going to ignore Plansix from now on. If you haven't played the game and don't understand the nostalgia of the BG-series (which as was mentioned above has actually always been rather ambiguous about the whole gender/sexuality-theme) then you really don't understand what is going on. A trans character is more than welcome in the universe. You didn't present what I asked. Read again please and come back when you got a real example. On April 05 2016 23:48 Ghostcom wrote:
This shitshow is literally no different than any of the above mentioned - except that this time a trans character is in the midst of it because the trans cleric is the best and most obvious example of how shit the writing is. You're either dishonest or staggeringly naive. This whole shitstorm would never have gone down like this if it wasn't about a trans character. The writing of the new content of the Enhanced Editions of BG1&2 has always been of contentious quality, but it has never before led to such a wide scale organised bombing of the review scores across every relevant website with each and every negative review just happening to be composed of the same checklist of arguments, slightly rephrased. It's basic goobergoober MO that happens everytime they get worked up over "SJW" things i.e. people not being homophobic, sexist assholes in media. Its is weird, because poorly written characters have existed in many games on mass. The fact this one is getting such special attention is baffling since it is just a back story to a minor character. On a side note: Our Lord and Savior, Ed Greenwood had some stuff to say about all of this: https://www.facebook.com/TheEdVerse/?fref=nfShow nested quote +I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.
Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn't a sex game, and we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.
But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to "spend time as the other" to learn what life is like.
So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I've never met a gamer yet who doesn't tinker with every adventure to "make it their own" at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don't suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.
But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn't blow your mind. If it's not for you, that's fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don't scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn't extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn't been rectified, no one made me a god. (I'm still crushed.)
And another thing: I have always felt HONOURED to have met, worked with, and enjoyed the work of so many talented women in all of my professional fields (library work has traditionally been dominated by females, gaming hasn't, and fiction-writing was male-dominated when I was young, but has steadily shifted throughout my lifetime). Does Paul Jaquays becoming Jennell Jaquays rob his, now her, artwork or game design or prose of one iota of its richness and the enjoyment it gives me? NO! And how by the Nine flaming Hells does one human being made happier by being the gender they prefer to be lessen my own security, or happiness, or make my life the less?
Sheesh.
The world has REAL problems, people. Telling someone else how to behave in bed (or dress, or what jobs they can hold down) isn't one of them. Or shouldn't be.
Look, if you're actually insisting on having a conversation about this you have to look at the actual facts of the case. "So what if it's badly written?" is not a valid argument when you're dealing with a character specifically inserted to fit a social agenda AND badly represents that social agenda making it incredibly jarring in context. It has nothing to do with whether or not trans people could exist in DnD (they obviously can), whether or not they should (they should), but it has everything to do with this character being designed not to represent an actual trans person, but as a token character meant to satisfy a social checklist and generate controversy. And that's not me making that argument, that's the woman who WROTE THE CHARACTER outright saying that.
Look, saying it wouldn't be as big a deal if the character weren't trans dodges the point. The only reason the character is trans is because that's the new social issue at the forefront of American society, not just on the internet, and the writer wanted to pick at that nerve. Again, it's not just the bigots that hate the character, it's the trans people themselves and pretty much everyone in between. And serious people aren't advocating for the removal of the character, they're just advocating for people to not buy a game from a developer that sacrifices story and immersion for hamfisted pushing of social issues.
Bottom line: It's getting a reaction because the writer wanted it to get a reaction.
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We have words for poorly written characters. We call them shallow and one dimensional. If the writing feels out of place, then say that. Lacing the criticism of the writing with “social agenda” and “politics” does not improve it. In fact, it harms the criticism by making it seem like you are objecting to the content and using the quality as a vector to get there. Otherwise, it comes across as a thinly veiled attempt to say that the tran’s character didn’t belong in the game, rather than a critique requesting a better written trans character.
It is possible the Ed Greenwood is responding people who are not saying the same things that you are. It is possible that there are a bunch of trans-phobic assholes who harassing the creator of the expansion.
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