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On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land.
No.
Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money.
And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you.
Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games.
Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt.
I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game.
We obv need to agree to disagree.
If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us.
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On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us.
Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game???
When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together.
I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not.
With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....?
By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w?
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On September 09 2014 10:31 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us. Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game??? When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together. I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not. With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....? By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w?
Archeage's CS system isn't so bad as of yet, but I'm guessing the kind of f2p he's looking for is akin to Dota 2's, where IRL cash gets you purely cosmetics. Of course, you can't say Dota 2 is exactly a MMO, but then it's also likely making more money with cosmetics than what Archeage could ever do with its CS.
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On September 09 2014 11:09 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:31 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us. Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game??? When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together. I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not. With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....? By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w? Archeage's CS system isn't so bad as of yet, but I'm guessing the kind of f2p he's looking for is akin to Dota 2's, where IRL cash gets you purely cosmetics. Of course, you can't say Dota 2 is exactly a MMO, but then it's also likely making more money with cosmetics than what Archeage could ever do with its CS.
Agreed that Dota2 is prob making more. But they are an established IP for years that had a huge following before the official game was released. Also, RPG's (or MMO's) are different just because theres a whole progression system. Considering that, any MMO is going to have longer progression for free compared to paying.
Regardless, it's pretty frustrating seeing people complain about p2w when it's one of the better f2p plans of MMO's atm. It's just going to backfire, because people want more and more for free, and if they bend too far they will end up having to do something retarded in order to make the game profitable (for example look at what happened with swtor and their retarded pricing plan). If they give equivalent tradeskills they will have to penalize free players somewhere else...
I'm happy with how it is now, because free players actually CAN match a cash shop player, once they establish themselves in game. Problem is I don't think people actually realize it's possible (or they just troll if they know).
Just look around for the people who did some testing and are worried that theres no reason to actually sub, because f2p alts w/ labor potions can get more labor than a sub, and earn their own money back, without ever having to spend a dime. Their the ones who actually did research. If you actually read through their results, youd know theres nothing to worry about for f2p players, more likely the opposite. Sort of like Eve.
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On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:
Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games.
This statement warrants a reply.
You seem to feel alienated because someone with more money than you can progress faster, which isn't necessarily unreasonable. I would just argue that if you're allowed to throw your larger pool of time into this game, then what chance to I have as someone with less time and more money? I end up completely unable to enjoy the game.
As it stands, I could play a day a week or so with a paid account and keep up with you playing multiple days a week, while not gaining any advantage that you can't obtain. You invest time, I invest money, we get the same thing.
I have a lot of issues with this game, but the way cash seems to work here isn't one of them.
We just need to unite against our common foe, the bastards who have time AND money.
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Yeah, as long as f2p players are able to achieve the same thing as spenders, where time-money is within a reasonable ratio, I think it's an OK system.
Bad examples are when spenders are able to attain gamebreaking items that are not at all attainable by free players. The problem being many publishers, even if they start out with seemingly innocent cash advantages, eventually progress to this 'gamebreaking' stage of the cash shop.
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On September 09 2014 10:31 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us. Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game??? When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together. I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not. With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....? By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w?
Buying the same things with ingame currency cuts from your ingame currency, doesn't it? So there is your disadvantage.
For your last question: I can't. The only multiplayer game that introduces fresh starts every few month while being f2p and not p2w is Path of Exile. Not an MMO though. But the fact every f2p MMO is p2w to this point doesn't mean every new one coming out has to be as well, right? A GW1 kind of model would be perfect.
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The argument of Archeage being p2w is fairly pointless. There is no such thing as a F2P MMO that has no p2w elements whatsoever.
In the most reasonable of cases, the cash shop allows you to get utility items and other stuff to make your progress more comfortably, if not a bit faster. However, usually, the cash shop lets you move faster than normal players, and helps you acquire things in an easier and quicker way. Therefore, it is p2w, at least to an extent, since by default, a paying user will be more wealthy or more powerful than a normal user.
The main issue is that, as someone pointed out, when developers begin this way, it usually ends as a complete power sale in the cash shop. It slowly progresses over the years, and finally lets you just buy your gear off the shop, or damn right near it.
I merely wanted to know how bad the changes were, and what was the degree of p2w present in Archeage.
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On September 09 2014 16:33 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:31 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us. Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game??? When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together. I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not. With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....? By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w? Buying the same things with ingame currency cuts from your ingame currency, doesn't it? So there is your disadvantage. For your last question: I can't. The only multiplayer game that introduces fresh starts every few month while being f2p and not p2w is Path of Exile. Not an MMO though. But the fact every f2p MMO is p2w to this point doesn't mean every new one coming out has to be as well, right? A GW1 kind of model would be perfect.
GW1 was not f2p either. They tried to market it as you only pay once and can play how much you like but when you look at it you had to buy expansions every 6 months or so which came down to a monthly subscribtion of 6 Euros.
and I say it again there is no pay to win in AA. Nothing in the cash shop is not obtainable through other means than spending money. In AA you pay for slightly quicker progression and even that is debatable because well organized groups of players will always be faster than solo dudes wasting huge amounts of money on labor pots.
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On September 09 2014 18:16 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 16:33 Miragee wrote:On September 09 2014 10:31 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 09:29 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 05:59 MaestroSC wrote:On September 09 2014 05:01 Spyridon wrote:On September 09 2014 03:34 MaestroSC wrote:
Its Pay 2 Win because its Pay for Labor.
Labor is necessary for any gold making, because 99% of your gold comes from growing stuff on your land, which you only get access to if you are a sub.
Labor is necessary to do ANY of the tradeskills, crafting, or gathering. And before all of the nerfs to labor rate, it was still the #1 choke point when it came to gearing up/leveling trade skills.
All of the best gear is crafted- the number 1 choke point of crafting is materials + labor. A. You need labor to farm the mats, B. You need the labor to use the mats.
Labor was already the most significant choke point/hold up when it came to leveling your character / gearing up your character.
Labor Points are responsible for like 75% of the content in Archeage...which is why they NERFED THE SHIT out of its replenish rate, and then made Labor Pots the #1 item in the Cash shop.
Your leaving out the part where you can by labor pots in game without spending real money... Also the fact that you need many other components than just labor to craft. Obviously if you are not paying, its going to take you longer to get established, and then to match the labor points of a payer you need to be dedicated in farming to buy those pots. But your acting like it's not possible, leaving out the methods that are in place that do make it possible. I'll say it again to stress it, if you are a dedicated free player, after a longer start up to get established, you can get labor points just as fast as someone who pays. (Actually faster than a subscriber that does NOT buy labor potions - labor pot is higher labor generation than subscribing alone). BTW, you can also buy subscription time in game as well. Duno why people complain their ass off and either don't do the research to know what their talking about, or act like features dont exist so they have a reason to complain... and labor points are the #1 most efficient way to make gold. Ya you can buy labor pots with gold... but if you want to make any real amount of gold, it will guaranteed involve labor in some way. Even if you want to do trade runs... Trade packs are made with labor. ALSO they are made with the ingredients you get from labor. Tradepacks are made by materials that you have to use Labor to harvest/create. When you can open your wallet, and use your wallet as a means to gain a competitive advantage...thats called pay to win. Cash shops should be reserved for novelty items, and cosmetic items IMO. Labor pots are not either of those, they are an essential, IMO the MOST essential part of the entire game, which most of the content revolves around. Once again ur acting like you can't buy labor potions IN GAME WITHOUT opening ur wallet. And actually p2w means a free player can't compete with a paying player no matter what (and that's where most f2p games mess up, without real money you'll never compete). In AA of course if your free it takes longer( just like every other free game, even the ones with the best monetization) but you can get the same BIS as someone who spent thousands on cash shop. Ur biggest argument is labor and that's silly because f2p can buy the same labor pots (without real money) as the ones who spend real money. Only difference is the f2p player will have to work a lil more for it. Stop acting like that's not true and actually addressing the fact that paying players don't get anything (including labor) that a f2p player can not get for free, except for land. No. Pay to win is when games sell advantages for money. And if you cant realize that someone who puts in more real money will have a huge advantage over someone who doesnt, then maybe this game is for you. Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games. Someone who spends money on labor pots will be at a HUGE advantage over someone who doesnt. I have played since the pre-LP exploiting alpha, and Labor points were already the biggest chokepoint at holding back player progression/growth. And all they did was slow it down more, and provide an option they can sell to players to further monetize their game. We obv need to agree to disagree. If you cant even admit that spending real money for in-game advantages isnt a pay to win system, then there isnt anything worth discussing between us. Once again you are IGNORING the fact that free players can BUY THE SAME THINGS WITH IN GAME CURRENCY! How is it such an unfair advantage if the SAME EXACT THING can be bought in game??? When I play, I'm probably going to subscribe, becuase I enjoy the game and want to support it. I'm not going to spend any money on the game other than that. Do you see me worried at all? And I'm still recommending the game to all my friends who want to play for free. Why? Because I'll share my house with them and help them get what they need as well. The game is about working together. I know for a fact that only people I'm going to have to worry about, are NOT the ones who spend thousands on marketplace. It's the people who have a full, large, established guild of players ready to help each other progress as fast as possible. It's all about teamwork for the progression in this game, not money or labor or any of the crap your saying. If you did a little research in to it youd know you need many people to get anywhere in this game. Paying or not. With that said.... So you say slower progression when starting is p2w....? By that definition, please name 3 f2p mmos that are not p2w? Buying the same things with ingame currency cuts from your ingame currency, doesn't it? So there is your disadvantage. For your last question: I can't. The only multiplayer game that introduces fresh starts every few month while being f2p and not p2w is Path of Exile. Not an MMO though. But the fact every f2p MMO is p2w to this point doesn't mean every new one coming out has to be as well, right? A GW1 kind of model would be perfect. GW1 was not f2p either. They tried to market it as you only pay once and can play how much you like but when you look at it you had to buy expansions every 6 months or so which came down to a monthly subscribtion of 6 Euros. and I say it again there is no pay to win in AA. Nothing in the cash shop is not obtainable through other means than spending money. In AA you pay for slightly quicker progression and even that is debatable because well organized groups of players will always be faster than solo dudes wasting huge amounts of money on labor pots.
Where did I say that GW1 was f2p? I said the kind of model would be perfect. I'm not missleaded and think that those game don't have to make money. They have to. But I think the model of earning money has to be fair. 6$/Month, usually a sub is 2+ times more than that. And you pay for content directly. As mentioned earlier, atm. I would be fine with a sub as well. But systems where everyone can spend as much money to gain increasing benefit is not fair.
On your second though: It is pay 2 win as long as you can pay money for it by official ways. It doesn't matter if you can get it ingame as well because that cuts your resources. So the profit of buying those enhancing items in the cash shop is smaller than buying them for real money. Also, the equivalent of real money is earned in a much shorter time than gold ingame for the same matter.
Btw. you always compare single paying persons with organised not paying groups. How about comparing organised paying groups with organised not paying groups?
That being said, I don't see how someone who doesn't pay can't have fun in this game. The only thing that bothers me personally is the AH and not being able to sell stuff. That takes a lot away. And nobody can say "oh, that's agains bots". First of all, you can have one paying account, rest is f2p ot accounts. Secondly, there is now and item for single use and AH selling forever. That, in my eyes, is not pay to win but it is really disgusting management as it takes a fundamental function away from user, make the game less convenient on purpose just to hide that option behind a pay wall.
I personally will play this game with sub, as it is meant to be. But I don't like the cash shop, the AH thing and the f2p advertising at all. It's a huge disgusting ball of crap.
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the argument that you can buy the same thing via in game currency so it's fair and not pay to win.are lying to themselves. You can't honestly think that the advantage is not a big deal. People who have jobs in real life can just demolish kids who's in high school with their unlimited funding when it comes to gearing up. The time it takes for the free to play player to accomplish the same amount of "win" in compare to the pay to win player is ginormous. And if you don't think time is an huge advantage you are naive to put it nicely.
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On September 09 2014 15:01 chasemme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 10:02 MaestroSC wrote:
Personally, I like games that let everything in the game be determined by players abilities/time/dedication and not their disposable income and willingness to spend it on video games.
This statement warrants a reply. You seem to feel alienated because someone with more money than you can progress faster, which isn't necessarily unreasonable. I would just argue that if you're allowed to throw your larger pool of time into this game, then what chance to I have as someone with less time and more money? I end up completely unable to enjoy the game. As it stands, I could play a day a week or so with a paid account and keep up with you playing multiple days a week, while not gaining any advantage that you can't obtain. You invest time, I invest money, we get the same thing. I have a lot of issues with this game, but the way cash seems to work here isn't one of them. We just need to unite against our common foe, the bastards who have time AND money.
wrong on every assumption.
Im not alienated one bit because if anything im the exact person they are marketing this pay to win system to.
Im 25, have a full time job, where I do exceptionally well, own my own house, and could easily dump Hundreds of dollars into this game every week, and not feel the pressure on my bank account. SO theoretically I am the target demographic of this game : Buy your advantage!
My problem isnt with it because im some poor high school/college kid, its that I am against the cash shop, as it goes against everything competitive gaming has ever been about.
People play video games, to become detached from the real world. When you play a MMO you are leaving the real world behind, and should not be limited/affected by your income in the real world. It ruins the whole point of MMO's.
When you play a MMO you should be judged by your character in the game, not by your RL job and by who can throw the most money at the cash shop.
Selling advantages in-game for real money is ridiculous.
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a true MMO strives not to be a "game" but to be a virtual world.
using real money/multiboxing/bots/hacks circumvents the boundaries of this, defiling the integrity of the world.
people get upset because they once played a game where integrity of the world was never compromised and as a consequence they lived a genuine life in that genuine world
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The last two posts sum up precisely why I think that RMT in official cash shops is bad in general.
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On September 09 2014 16:33 Miragee wrote:
Buying the same things with ingame currency cuts from your ingame currency, doesn't it? So there is your disadvantage.
Not when you can use it to make your money back. It's possible to use them to fund more potions in the future, etc.
Think kind of like alts in Eve if you played that game. Once you set up researchers/manu/etc, your alt can make its money back and support itself. Though game time in Eve, or through labor pots in AA.
And if you played Eve, you know how incredible powerful doing this was. Without paying money for any of those alt accounts that support themselves, and multiboxing etc, people become rich as hell, and played the game without spending a dime (although in Eve your FORCED to p2p at first, later on it becomes f2p once you can afford it).
On September 10 2014 01:50 MaestroSC wrote:
wrong on every assumption.
Im not alienated one bit because if anything im the exact person they are marketing this pay to win system to.
Im 25, have a full time job, where I do exceptionally well, own my own house, and could easily dump Hundreds of dollars into this game every week, and not feel the pressure on my bank account. SO theoretically I am the target demographic of this game : Buy your advantage!
My problem isnt with it because im some poor high school/college kid, its that I am against the cash shop, as it goes against everything competitive gaming has ever been about.
People play video games, to become detached from the real world. When you play a MMO you are leaving the real world behind, and should not be limited/affected by your income in the real world. It ruins the whole point of MMO's.
When you play a MMO you should be judged by your character in the game, not by your RL job and by who can throw the most money at the cash shop.
Selling advantages in-game for real money is ridiculous.
Notice how you once again avoided every question that was asked to you? Because you know you either can't answer them, or if you did you would have to admit you have no reason to be complaining.
I'm 32 and have a full time job as well. Which also means I don't have loads of time to play. But I don't plan on throwing money in other than a subscription. And like I mentioend before, theres no reason for me to worry about ANY players that spend a lot of money on the game. I know about 8 RL friends who are interested in the game, only 3 of us are going to subscribe, 5 are going to play free. I still recommend the game to them. They have nothing to worry about.
Theres methods for free players to surpass paying players as soon as they do a lil work get themselves established.
Think about your own claims - labor helps so much according to you correct? (even though it requires much more than labor, but for arguments sake...) Once you can work to afford that first labor pot, the next one comes even easier, and so on. It's completely possible for characters to fund their own labor pots, on a f2p account not paying any real money. If you look at the math some people did, they already found plans on how to do it WITHOUT even playing the character, just using them as a tradeskill f2p alt. And making MULTIPLE of those characters.
For a player who establishes this, can you honestly say a paying player has any advantage over them? They will have the same labor gain as someone who uses the potion. Which means it will come down to getting your hands on the rare materials, which in this game requires a guild/community effort.
So I say again. You are worrying about the wrong things. I don't know if you just don't understand it, or if this is about "principles" and not actually about a logical point. But the reality is, you dont need to fear any players with money. The only players you need to fear are the ones with established guilds going in to this game, and a long term plan on success.
If you want to succeed, stop worrying about money, and find a group of like minded players and put together a plan.
(PS: Just to point out how silly the p2w arguments are, just wait until a month or 2 from now when people figure out how things REALLY are and start complaining about f2p being able to get too much labor... Multiboxing is a MUCH larger issue BECAUSE players can do it absolutely for free. And the reason it's going to be an issue is precisely because f2p can get so much labor... P2W arguments are so far off base and the people arguing it don't even realize it.... Just look at how many times I've mentioned in this post how F2P can match and people are still complaining.... Apparently some people don't learn without seeing for themselves...).
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On September 10 2014 03:46 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2014 16:33 Miragee wrote:
Buying the same things with ingame currency cuts from your ingame currency, doesn't it? So there is your disadvantage.
Not when you can use it to make your money back. It's possible to use them to fund more potions in the future, etc. Think kind of like alts in Eve if you played that game. Once you set up researchers/manu/etc, your alt can make its money back and support itself. Though game time in Eve, or through labor pots in AA. And if you played Eve, you know how incredible powerful doing this was. Without paying money for any of those alt accounts that support themselves, and multiboxing etc, people become rich as hell, and played the game without spending a dime (although in Eve your FORCED to p2p at first, later on it becomes f2p once you can afford it). Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 01:50 MaestroSC wrote:
wrong on every assumption.
Im not alienated one bit because if anything im the exact person they are marketing this pay to win system to.
Im 25, have a full time job, where I do exceptionally well, own my own house, and could easily dump Hundreds of dollars into this game every week, and not feel the pressure on my bank account. SO theoretically I am the target demographic of this game : Buy your advantage!
My problem isnt with it because im some poor high school/college kid, its that I am against the cash shop, as it goes against everything competitive gaming has ever been about.
People play video games, to become detached from the real world. When you play a MMO you are leaving the real world behind, and should not be limited/affected by your income in the real world. It ruins the whole point of MMO's.
When you play a MMO you should be judged by your character in the game, not by your RL job and by who can throw the most money at the cash shop.
Selling advantages in-game for real money is ridiculous.
Notice how you once again avoided every question that was asked to you? Because you know you either can't answer them, or if you did you would have to admit you have no reason to be complaining. I'm 32 and have a full time job as well. Which also means I don't have loads of time to play. But I don't plan on throwing money in other than a subscription. And like I mentioend before, theres no reason for me to worry about ANY players that spend a lot of money on the game. I know about 8 RL friends who are interested in the game, only 3 of us are going to subscribe, 5 are going to play free. I still recommend the game to them. They have nothing to worry about. Theres methods for free players to surpass paying players as soon as they do a lil work get themselves established. Think about your own claims - labor helps so much according to you correct? (even though it requires much more than labor, but for arguments sake...) Once you can work to afford that first labor pot, the next one comes even easier, and so on. It's completely possible for characters to fund their own labor pots, on a f2p account not paying any real money. If you look at the math some people did, they already found plans on how to do it WITHOUT even playing the character, just using them as a tradeskill f2p alt. And making MULTIPLE of those characters. For a player who establishes this, can you honestly say a paying player has any advantage over them? They will have the same labor gain as someone who uses the potion. Which means it will come down to getting your hands on the rare materials, which in this game requires a guild/community effort. So I say again. You are worrying about the wrong things. I don't know if you just don't understand it, or if this is about "principles" and not actually about a logical point. But the reality is, you dont need to fear any players with money. The only players you need to fear are the ones with established guilds going in to this game, and a long term plan on success. If you want to succeed, stop worrying about money, and find a group of like minded players and put together a plan. (PS: Just to point out how silly the p2w arguments are, just wait until a month or 2 from now when people figure out how things REALLY are and start complaining about f2p being able to get too much labor... Multiboxing is a MUCH larger issue BECAUSE players can do it absolutely for free. And the reason it's going to be an issue is precisely because f2p can get so much labor... P2W arguments are so far off base and the people arguing it don't even realize it.... Just look at how many times I've mentioned in this post how F2P can match and people are still complaining.... Apparently some people don't learn without seeing for themselves...).
Lmao. You wont even admit that paying IRL for an in-game advantage is P2W. (Even a minor advantage is an advantage. Your whole point is "ITS NOT EVEN THAT BIG OF AN ADVANTAGE" which noone is arguing against. Its more of the precedent/line of thought that can follow/snowball out of control)
And no matter how many people tell you your wrong, all you do is flame.
People are saying that using real money for in-game advantages is wrong, and a bad direction for gaming.
But your point is that you can eventually be as strong as the people paying for advantages.
Nobody is arguing that. No matter how many times you say that, it still isnt relevant to the arguement that using real money for in-game advantages, is not something anyone who appreciates integerity of gaming likes.
Again, you are so focused on being right that you are ignoring what everyone says.
Noone is complaining about the money. Noone is complaining about the cost of the pots. Not a single person here is concerned with the actual price, or the costs of any of the advantages you can pay for. They are upset at the precedent and direction of the game. If they are willing to sell a minor advantage for real money...what if they decide in 6 months they want to start selling in-game items for real currency...once people stop buying labor pots?
Its a slippery slope, and where do you draw the line? Well players can build a ship in game and buy the plans in-game... so lets just sell it in the shop... i mean its not a real advantage because players CAN get the items without using cash anyways right?
Lets just sell the best in slot gear for real money... I mean players can all get EVENTUALLY if they just play a lot..so who cares if you can buy it in the cash shop, i mean everyone CAN get it eventually.
Lets just let them buy their house, and build it for $5...i mean they can get it in-game eventually anyways.
Lets just let players buy land from the cash shop, as much as they want...i mean they can already own land anyways so who cares if they have 1 property or 5...for the people who only have 1..they can get just as much as someone with 5 Eventually...
Where do you draw the line?
But whatever, keep flaming people and arguing points that have 0 revelance to the topic at hand.
Keep telling everyone they are stupid, or insist that noone but you has played the game. Insist that you are the only one who has a point. Keep insisting that everyone else is just a cheap/poor person who is just against spending their money on video game content.
When it comes down to it...you dont think paying for in-game advantages is a bad thing. A lot of people disagree... keep just insisting they are poor/cheap tho...eventually they will prob change their mind.
Ugh. Am done even acknowledging your existence.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
So is this ever coming back to Steam?
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On September 10 2014 05:58 ahswtini wrote:
So is this ever coming back to Steam?
It's on some thing called Glyph right now. Seems better than Origin maybe? But yeah, I would like it on steam better so I don't have to have more than that open at once.
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I think they were trying to get Steam integration back but it's most likely just going to redundantly open up Glyph so you can open the game. I wonder if leveling will be a pain with all the 50s running with the head start =_=
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On September 10 2014 05:59 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2014 05:58 ahswtini wrote:
So is this ever coming back to Steam? It's on some thing called Glyph right now. Seems better than Origin maybe? But yeah, I would like it on steam better so I don't have to have more than that open at once.
glyph is just a launcher Trion uses not a store front like Steam. So yea Glyph will start anyway
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EPT
