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On January 16 2018 03:24 superstartran wrote:
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them.
Well, yeah, map bosses are all over the place and trio-style bosses are hilarious with MS+AC for sure. But with regards to Shaper/single target... what's the overall uptime on something like Writhing Jar for a longer fight?
On January 16 2018 03:24 superstartran wrote:
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible.
I mean the 16% less damage applies to the whole ability, balls included, not just the initial melee hit.
It's definitely insanely good right now and proccing an ancestor by standing just out of range (but your balls still hit) will probably get changed in the future. But it's not double (for 1 ancestor) or triple damage.
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On January 16 2018 03:30 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 03:24 superstartran wrote:
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them. Well, yeah, map bosses are all over the place and trio-style bosses are hilarious with MS+AC for sure. But with regards to Shaper/single target... what's the overall uptime on something like Writhing Jar for a longer fight? Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 03:24 superstartran wrote:
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible. I mean the 16% less damage applies to the whole ability, balls included, not just the initial melee hit.
Writing Jar is kind of random but it does enough where it bursts down bosses for me pretty quickly.
16% less damage isn't that big of a deal when you consider even if you're not using writing jar or have ads around, you're still producing an extra 12 projectiles. Even if you're solely doing that, it's something like a 70% multiplier, which is more than any gem you can put in to replace Ancestral Call. Consider also that Ancestral Call also benefits from all additional projectiles, which is a major reason why it's broken as fuck.
It not only makes MS a better clearing skill, it also makes MS an even better single target skill.
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On January 16 2018 03:32 superstartran wrote:
16% less damage isn't that big of a deal when you consider even if you're not using writing jar or have ads around, you're still producing an extra 12 projectiles. Even if you're solely doing that, it's something like a 70% multiplier.
Right, which isn't double lol. It's still the best available multiplier from a single gem though. I bet they'll increase the penalty in the future too. I could see MS+AC still being a fun enough clearing skill even after they significantly nerf the single target stuff. But it shouldn't do both lol.
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Writhing jar is literally +1 hit per flask use and ur build should be at 5+ aps so it's really not very exciting
Also i've had difficulty getting it so that my main attack isnt' targetting the boss but i'm near enough for my ancestral call to hit the boss with multistrike since if the boss moves, then my main attack just multistrike targets the main boss. Without multistrike, it's harder to abuse the LGoH since 90% MORE attack speed is pretty nice.
I mean it's super good, but superstartran is misrepresenting it
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On January 16 2018 03:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Writhing jar is literally +1 hit per flask use and ur build should be at 5+ aps so it's really not very exciting
Also i've had difficulty getting it so that my main attack isnt' targetting the boss but i'm near enough for my ancestral call to hit the boss with multistrike since if the boss moves, then my main attack just multistrike targets the main boss. Without multistrike, it's harder to abuse the LGoH since 90% MORE attack speed is pretty nice.
I mean it's super good, but superstartran is misrepresenting it
Use numlock trick, makes it alot better and easier to do. Writing Jar still gives you extra balls for those few attacks, which is enough to just insta destroy bosses. For longer boss fights like Guardians/Shaper you'd def swap out for a different flask (mainly Sulphur)
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On January 16 2018 03:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Writhing jar is literally +1 hit per flask use and ur build should be at 5+ aps so it's really not very exciting
Do the worms die that fast? I've never used it, if they don't last for more than a few hits I can't see it being that worth it. The overleech for Slayer specifically could be nice but the damage increase from a couple more MS hits would be small.
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Whenever num lock trick is off it feels like playing with desync and worse. Can't play without it. :/
Of course the worms die fast when even the toughest bosses die fast, lol.
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On January 16 2018 03:47 HolydaKing wrote:
Whenever num lock trick is off it feels like playing with desync and worse. Can't play without it. :/
Of course the worms die fast when even the toughest bosses die fast, lol.
Yeah kind of wish they'd just make that a built-in option at this point.
And yeah I didn't know if the worms scaled with the zone/character or something lol. Never used it. If they die in 1 hit then :X
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Worms die in 1 hit lol they literally add two attacks per flask use, but if you are ancestral calling properly then it's literally only 1 since you already are getting one extra hit free.
Put it this way, with 5 APS i'm happy to wait the extra .2s for that one hit rather than dedicate a flask slot for it, although as pathfinder where you don't need ailment removal etc it's probably very low cost to use worm flask as your life flask.
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On January 16 2018 03:58 Sn0_Man wrote:
Worms die in 1 hit lol they literally add two attacks per flask use, but if you are ancestral calling properly then it's literally only 1 since you already are getting one extra hit free.
Put it this way, with 5 APS i'm happy to wait the extra .2s for that one hit rather than dedicate a flask slot for it, although as pathfinder where you don't need ailment removal etc it's probably very low cost to use worm flask as your life flask.
I dunno, I just use it for extra targets and overleech as Slayer. For the most part I've killed every boss in like half a second with Vaal Haste on so it's not a big deal to me.
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It's by far the best life flask for slayer that's very true
the overkill leech is basically like marauder's 100% leech but you also have leech not removed at full life so it's an ABSURD leech instance
on top of it being a very reasonable seething life flask
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Not sure if I want to do the ES wand build that I posted on the other page now, 7300 or so ES even with incandescent heart and the armor flasks seems kinda squishy, but maybe I'm wrong? Can anyone suggest a nice OP build that can just facetank everything and also clear fast?
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On January 16 2018 04:29 Sn0_Man wrote:
It's by far the best life flask for slayer that's very true
the overkill leech is basically like marauder's 100% leech but you also have leech not removed at full life so it's an ABSURD leech instance
on top of it being a very reasonable seething life flask
The only scary part is that I'm not shock immune which I hate; I might end up going Pathfinder just for shock immunity.
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Honestly that video with the molten doesnt look that insane, normal oldschool Molten strike does the same or better DPS already vs shaper, either with Brutus lead sprinkler or normal build.
/edit, i like my current normal cyclone starforge build with blood magic. (easily reaches 9k hp) and can do deathless guardians/shaper no matter most mods.
Pretty fun
PS also facetanking isnt a thing anymore for 99% of the builds like before CI nerf, you actually have to dodge some 1 shot mechanics.
So get somewhat used to dodging things, or melt things with 10m dps before it starts attacking.
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On January 16 2018 03:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean it's super good, but superstartran is misrepresenting it
Pretty much this. You're not straight doubling your DPS with Ancestral Call, especially since the alternative isn't an empty link, but other support gems that are also 40-50% more multipliers, and the ball explosions aren't actually that huge (esp with Conc Effect).
It's really good because it gives better clearing without significantly sacrificing single-target. It's not straight-up better single-target than actual single-target gems.
On January 16 2018 03:40 superstartran wrote:
Use numlock trick, makes it alot better and easier to do. Writing Jar still gives you extra balls for those few attacks, which is enough to just insta destroy bosses. For longer boss fights like Guardians/Shaper you'd def swap out for a different flask (mainly Sulphur)
Numlock trick still namelocks when you are actually close enough to do so. Shaper is a special case because the times where you're actually damaging him are times when he straight-up isn't moving (beam phase) so it's easy to line it up.
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On January 16 2018 05:49 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 03:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean it's super good, but superstartran is misrepresenting it Pretty much this. You're not straight doubling your DPS with Ancestral Call, especially since the alternative isn't an empty link, but other support gems that are also 40-50% more multipliers, and the ball explosions aren't actually that huge (esp with Conc Effect). It's really good because it gives better clearing without significantly sacrificing single-target. It's not straight-up better single-target than actual single-target gems. Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 03:40 superstartran wrote:
Use numlock trick, makes it alot better and easier to do. Writing Jar still gives you extra balls for those few attacks, which is enough to just insta destroy bosses. For longer boss fights like Guardians/Shaper you'd def swap out for a different flask (mainly Sulphur) Numlock trick still namelocks when you are actually close enough to do so. Shaper is a special case because the times where you're actually damaging him are times when he straight-up isn't moving (beam phase) so it's easy to line it up.
You don't use Conc Effect if you're using Ancestral Call because you'll mess up the overlap.
The numlock trick is still really easy, I don't see how anyone has an issue with it. Almost every boss has plenty of moments where they stand still for more than 2 seconds, so why anyone think it's an issue to line-up shit is beyond me. It's a straight up 70% multiplier in almost every instance, which is better than anything else. In almost every case Ancestral Call will out DPS every single gem you could put in place of it, the only time I could see Ancestral Call being out DPS'd is if you somehow put the boss into a corner/wall (which is a super special case) and hit 100% of the balls with every multiplier gem you could put in.
On January 16 2018 05:20 Quateras wrote:
Honestly that video with the molten doesnt look that insane, normal oldschool Molten strike does the same or better DPS already vs shaper, either with Brutus lead sprinkler or normal build.
/edit, i like my current normal cyclone starforge build with blood magic. (easily reaches 9k hp) and can do deathless guardians/shaper no matter most mods.
Pretty fun
PS also facetanking isnt a thing anymore for 99% of the builds like before CI nerf, you actually have to dodge some 1 shot mechanics.
So get somewhat used to dodging things, or melt things with 10m dps before it starts attacking.
Most BLS builds don't hit 9k+ HP; if he dropped life and went more damage he could easily double/triple his DPS. Not to mention he's not even using Opal Rings with double rolls since he wanted to match his res for Wise Oak. He's still hitting over 50k+ DPS a ball, which if he's hitting like 50ish balls is like 2.5 million Shaper DPS. Consider that he has 9k HP and crazy sustain that almost matches oldschool Vaal Pact, that's pretty good. Most builds that push past 2 million DPS are practically glass cannons or insanely expensive.
Some janky ass builds can face tank most things in the game. Mjolner Juggernauts with max EC and fully decked out gear can tank almost everything in the game including Shaper slams (non crit). Same with Guardian tanks.
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On January 16 2018 05:49 TheYango wrote:
It's really good because it gives better clearing without significantly sacrificing single-target. It's not straight-up better single-target than actual single-target gems.
Is this true? I mean in practical terms you don't always have the right spacing to get the double ball fountain working, but I think when it does it's better than other gems that would be 40-50%ish right? Might try some other options later to see.
On January 16 2018 05:58 superstartran wrote:
You don't use Conc Effect if you're using Ancestral Call because you'll mess up the overlap.
Also not sure about this.
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As a guy that played Oni-Goroshi MS character to lvl 90 I would say AC is not as good vs single target as talked about. After I stopped using it vs bosses and switched to Multistrike, bosses would melt much faster.
As for general mapping, even with AC, MS is not good enough. The delay between hitting someone and balls going into air and then falling down is too long for character basically standing still in that time. You can die in some specific situations because of this. If you use Multistrike for clearing rabble, it is even worse because you can get stuck there for just a bit too long.
Better to have alternate weapon in other slot using some other skill for mapping and MS only for bosses. Or play a Nghamaghu Cyclone Slayer.
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Uh, why'd you switch Multistrike anyway? It's a must have in MS builds, prolly the best gem.
I'm currently using MS + Multistrike + Ancestral Call + Ele Focus + Elemental Damage with Attacks + Conc Effect.
My general mapping looks like Leap, 1-2 clicks, Leap etc... exception being Abyssal rifts where the rares can be more tanky. You don't need to wait for the balls to land, as they kill for sure. And Multistrike barely locks you with 10+ aps.
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On January 16 2018 07:57 Duka08 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 05:49 TheYango wrote:
It's really good because it gives better clearing without significantly sacrificing single-target. It's not straight-up better single-target than actual single-target gems. Is this true? I mean in practical terms you don't always have the right spacing to get the double ball fountain working, but I think when it does it's better than other gems that would be 40-50%ish right? Might try some other options later to see. Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 05:58 superstartran wrote:
You don't use Conc Effect if you're using Ancestral Call because you'll mess up the overlap. Also not sure about this.
It's not true, I did the math.
Assuming half the balls hit with Ancestral Call you should actually win out with Ancestral Call. On my build with maxed out (realistically obtainable) gear you're looking at like 68-9k dps on balls. With Conc or Damage on Full Life (which is conditional) you're looking at like 100kish. Ancestral Call is 24 projectiles total, which about half to 75% will hit depending on the hitbox of the boss. With regular Molten Strike and no Ancestral Call, you'll hit maybe 6-7ish balls, maybe 8 if we're being generous. In most cases Ancestral Call numbers should come out ahead anywhere from 500k-600k, slightly higher depending on how many balls you can hit on the mob.
With good practice you should be able to pretty much always hit the sweet spot, especially vs Guardians/Shaper who basically stand and eat damage and make it easy to line up (which is where the DPS matters anyways). Same with Atziri phases. Against the vast majority of map bosses it really doesn't even matter as you should be north of 1 million Shaper DPS anyways (which is enough to obliterate 99.9% of the map bosses no matter the mods).
I did some extensive testing with the Conc and Ancestral Call too, found that using Elemental Focus ended up being more consistent damage. You have to remember when you're using Dying Sun it fucks with alot of shit, and makes Molten Strike AoE kind of hard to deal with, so without Ancestral Call it makes it real difficult to line-up the perfect Molten Strike dps.
And believe me, I'm doing this shit in HC. It's not world class clear speed, but it's good enough and tanky enough to be able to do everything in the game. Single Target is also amazing, have never had issues.
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EPT
