On January 16 2018 08:54 superstartran wrote: I did some extensive testing with the Conc and Ancestral Call too, found that using Elemental Focus ended up being more consistent damage. You have to remember when you're using Dying Sun it fucks with alot of shit, and makes Molten Strike AoE kind of hard to deal with, so without Ancestral Call it makes it real difficult to line-up the perfect Molten Strike dps.
So what's your 6L without Conc then? I'm already using Ele Focus, that wouldn't be the replacement for Conc as you say.
On January 16 2018 08:34 HolydaKing wrote: Uh, why'd you switch Multistrike anyway? It's a must have in MS builds, prolly the best gem.
I'm currently using MS + Multistrike + Ancestral Call + Ele Focus + Elemental Damage with Attacks + Conc Effect.
My general mapping looks like Leap, 1-2 clicks, Leap etc... exception being Abyssal rifts where the rares can be more tanky. You don't need to wait for the balls to land, as they kill for sure. And Multistrike barely locks you with 10+ aps.
I'm using the same setup and this pretty much describes my exact experience with the build. I can see people disliking the "ball drop" for personal preference, but I don't think it "objectively" slows you down. Of course MS+AC isn't going to compare to optimal/screenclearing T8-10 currency farming builds, but it works for anything up to T16 with pretty much the same survivability and clear speed regardless of map difficulty or mods.
On January 16 2018 08:54 superstartran wrote: I did some extensive testing with the Conc and Ancestral Call too, found that using Elemental Focus ended up being more consistent damage. You have to remember when you're using Dying Sun it fucks with alot of shit, and makes Molten Strike AoE kind of hard to deal with, so without Ancestral Call it makes it real difficult to line-up the perfect Molten Strike dps.
So what's your 6L without Conc then? I'm already using Ele Focus, that wouldn't be the replacement for Conc as you say.
On January 16 2018 08:34 HolydaKing wrote: Uh, why'd you switch Multistrike anyway? It's a must have in MS builds, prolly the best gem.
I'm currently using MS + Multistrike + Ancestral Call + Ele Focus + Elemental Damage with Attacks + Conc Effect.
My general mapping looks like Leap, 1-2 clicks, Leap etc... exception being Abyssal rifts where the rares can be more tanky. You don't need to wait for the balls to land, as they kill for sure. And Multistrike barely locks you with 10+ aps.
I'm using the same setup and this pretty much describes my exact experience with the build. I can see people disliking the "ball drop" for personal preference, but I don't think it "objectively" slows you down. Of course MS+AC isn't going to compare to optimal/screenclearing T8-10 currency farming builds, but it works for anything up to T16 with pretty much the same survivability and clear speed regardless of map difficulty or mods.
I'm pure Fire EO BLS so I run MS/AC/Multi/Fire Pen/EAD/Ele Focus
I've done some testing with Conc, and it seems like it clusters the balls together which can or cannot be a good thing depending on the boss.
Yeah it's not the greatest clear speed in the world, but for the guy who said you could die and shit, that's a load of nonsense. I'm running my build in HC up to tier 14s, so that makes no sense.
On January 16 2018 03:11 Duka08 wrote: Oh wait so when you get the ancestor hitting on single target there's actually two right on top of each other? Is that true? I thought it was well known that AN ancestor can proc on single target if you stand far enough away, but this is the first I've heard of BOTH proccing and you just can't tell because they overlap. That would be pretty serious yeah. AC also has a small damage penalty though. Still don't know about triple.
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them. Playing Slayer so Worm Flask is super nice for me, although I'm testing as Pathfinder right now for 100% pen.
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible. Once you get used to the targeting it's fine.
For the DPS with Ancestral Call trick.
If you drop Ancestral Call for sth else (my setup swap it out for EDWA) you would get at least similar or higher dmg.
Worm flask isn't up for every single attack (I do 8 aps). The gem switch double the dmg per hit, but now there's less hits. But it's not as much of a different because not every balls ancestral call proc on worms will hit shaper or other similar boss cause his hitbox isn't that big. Bigger hitbox there's only like Dom 2nd phase, Brine King, A9 trio. In fact from testing often the worms die from falling balls b4 I can get ancestral attack on them.
As tri ele claw raider going full abyss gears set my link was MS - AC - multi - add lightning - aoe/conc - tri ele penetration (from Shroud). Single target swapping out AC for EDWA, add lightning for ele focus (kinda unnecessary). Melts 50% hp shaper in 3s.
On January 16 2018 03:11 Duka08 wrote: Oh wait so when you get the ancestor hitting on single target there's actually two right on top of each other? Is that true? I thought it was well known that AN ancestor can proc on single target if you stand far enough away, but this is the first I've heard of BOTH proccing and you just can't tell because they overlap. That would be pretty serious yeah. AC also has a small damage penalty though. Still don't know about triple.
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them. Playing Slayer so Worm Flask is super nice for me, although I'm testing as Pathfinder right now for 100% pen.
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible. Once you get used to the targeting it's fine.
If you drop Ancestral Call for sth else (my setup swap it out for EDWA) you would get at least similar or higher dmg.
Worm flask isn't up for every single attack (I do 8 aps). The gem switch double the dmg per hit, but now there's less hits. But it's not as much of a different because not every balls ancestral call proc on worms will hit shaper or other similar boss cause his hitbox isn't that big. Bigger hitbox there's only like Dom 2nd phase, Brine King, A9 trio. In fact from testing often the worms die from falling balls b4 I can get ancestral attack on them.
As tri ele claw raider going full abyss gears set my link was MS - AC - multi - add lightning - aoe/conc - tri ele penetration (from Shroud). Single target swapping out AC for EDWA, add lightning for ele focus (kinda unnecessary). Melts 50% hp shaper in 3s.
You will not get higher damage from a gem swap, you'd have to hit 9+ balls per hit to get similar damage. But if you're assuming you're hitting 9+, that means you're hitting the same ratio for Ancestral Call which would boost it's DPS up further. And you're not hitting 9+ balls per attack. With Ancestral Call you've got 24 projectiles, you'll probably hit like 12. With regular Molten no AC, you're hitting maybe 6 tops, espec since with less projectiles you have a much greater chance to miss with Dying Sun's inc AoE.
On January 16 2018 08:34 HolydaKing wrote: Uh, why'd you switch Multistrike anyway? It's a must have in MS builds, prolly the best gem.
I'm currently using MS + Multistrike + Ancestral Call + Ele Focus + Elemental Damage with Attacks + Conc Effect.
My general mapping looks like Leap, 1-2 clicks, Leap etc... exception being Abyssal rifts where the rares can be more tanky. You don't need to wait for the balls to land, as they kill for sure. And Multistrike barely locks you with 10+ aps.
For general map clearing it is not needed. It locks you in and you can kill enemies with another MORE damage support just as well.
I use similar setup to yours but use Physical Projectile support (since I am using Oni that turns physical damage into 125% fire damage). So for mapping I use AC and swap in Multistrike to fight bosses.
As for how it plays, I whirling into enemies attack once or twice, pick up loot and move on. And not only it is irritating to wait for balls to drop, my leech depends on them dropping as well. Sometimes packs of ranged enemies will all fire at same time at you and your leech might not come in time or too close for fun mapping.
On January 16 2018 03:11 Duka08 wrote: Oh wait so when you get the ancestor hitting on single target there's actually two right on top of each other? Is that true? I thought it was well known that AN ancestor can proc on single target if you stand far enough away, but this is the first I've heard of BOTH proccing and you just can't tell because they overlap. That would be pretty serious yeah. AC also has a small damage penalty though. Still don't know about triple.
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them. Playing Slayer so Worm Flask is super nice for me, although I'm testing as Pathfinder right now for 100% pen.
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible. Once you get used to the targeting it's fine.
If you drop Ancestral Call for sth else (my setup swap it out for EDWA) you would get at least similar or higher dmg.
Worm flask isn't up for every single attack (I do 8 aps). The gem switch double the dmg per hit, but now there's less hits. But it's not as much of a different because not every balls ancestral call proc on worms will hit shaper or other similar boss cause his hitbox isn't that big. Bigger hitbox there's only like Dom 2nd phase, Brine King, A9 trio. In fact from testing often the worms die from falling balls b4 I can get ancestral attack on them.
As tri ele claw raider going full abyss gears set my link was MS - AC - multi - add lightning - aoe/conc - tri ele penetration (from Shroud). Single target swapping out AC for EDWA, add lightning for ele focus (kinda unnecessary). Melts 50% hp shaper in 3s.
You will not get higher damage from a gem swap, you'd have to hit 9+ balls per hit to get similar damage. But if you're assuming you're hitting 9+, that means you're hitting the same ratio for Ancestral Call which would boost it's DPS up further. And you're not hitting 9+ balls per attack. With Ancestral Call you've got 24 projectiles, you'll probably hit like 12. With regular Molten no AC, you're hitting maybe 6 tops, espec since with less projectiles you have a much greater chance to miss with Dying Sun's inc AoE.
No way with ancestral call and worms you get more than double the number of hits since the worms are way far out plus not every worm proc ancestral call as they die instantly. Each writhing jar can use 2 charges so even 3 flask cannot cover a single second of attacking.
I do 11 balls per attack, of those like 9 hits due to conc, 8 attack per sec. 72 hits per sec.
Your setup deplete 3 writhing jar in 6 attack, those balls fly out everywhere cause the worms aren't at the target center. It's roughly say 9 + 4 + 4 = 17 ball hits per flask use. After 6 use you're out. After 6 use which would cover to less than 1s of attack then ? And that's 3 flask slots for 6 attacks.
And in my setup each hit deals 83% more damage due to going from ac to a multiplier support (edwa). Not to mention half the worm dies immediately without proccing ancestral call.
I'm just having trouble seeing how swapping out ancestral call is not better for bosses without ads :/
On January 16 2018 03:11 Duka08 wrote: Oh wait so when you get the ancestor hitting on single target there's actually two right on top of each other? Is that true? I thought it was well known that AN ancestor can proc on single target if you stand far enough away, but this is the first I've heard of BOTH proccing and you just can't tell because they overlap. That would be pretty serious yeah. AC also has a small damage penalty though. Still don't know about triple.
You can get triple if you use Worm Flask (which is what I do), single extra Ancestor Proc if it's just one enemy. Most map bosses are there with ads standing on top of them. Playing Slayer so Worm Flask is super nice for me, although I'm testing as Pathfinder right now for 100% pen.
Most MS builds scale with projectiles anyways, the damage mitigation is negligible. Once you get used to the targeting it's fine.
If you drop Ancestral Call for sth else (my setup swap it out for EDWA) you would get at least similar or higher dmg.
Worm flask isn't up for every single attack (I do 8 aps). The gem switch double the dmg per hit, but now there's less hits. But it's not as much of a different because not every balls ancestral call proc on worms will hit shaper or other similar boss cause his hitbox isn't that big. Bigger hitbox there's only like Dom 2nd phase, Brine King, A9 trio. In fact from testing often the worms die from falling balls b4 I can get ancestral attack on them.
As tri ele claw raider going full abyss gears set my link was MS - AC - multi - add lightning - aoe/conc - tri ele penetration (from Shroud). Single target swapping out AC for EDWA, add lightning for ele focus (kinda unnecessary). Melts 50% hp shaper in 3s.
You will not get higher damage from a gem swap, you'd have to hit 9+ balls per hit to get similar damage. But if you're assuming you're hitting 9+, that means you're hitting the same ratio for Ancestral Call which would boost it's DPS up further. And you're not hitting 9+ balls per attack. With Ancestral Call you've got 24 projectiles, you'll probably hit like 12. With regular Molten no AC, you're hitting maybe 6 tops, espec since with less projectiles you have a much greater chance to miss with Dying Sun's inc AoE.
No way with ancestral call and worms you get more than double the number of hits since the worms are way far out plus not every worm proc ancestral call as they die instantly. Each writhing jar can use 2 charges so even 3 flask cannot cover a single second of attacking.
I do 11 balls per attack, of those like 9 hits due to conc, 8 attack per sec. 72 hits per sec.
Your setup deplete 3 writhing jar in 6 attack, those balls fly out everywhere cause the worms aren't at the target center. It's roughly say 9 + 4 + 4 = 17 ball hits per flask use. After 6 use you're out. After 6 use which would cover to less than 1s of attack then ? And that's 3 flask slots for 6 attacks.
And in my setup each hit deals 83% more damage due to going from ac to a multiplier support (edwa). Not to mention half the worm dies immediately without proccing ancestral call.
I'm just having trouble seeing how swapping out ancestral call is not better for bosses without ads :/
Yeah that's not true. You can't hit 9 because of Dying Sun's AoE, and if you don't have Dying Sun you lose 2 projectiles. I'm calling shenanigans on that, especially since all I did literally in Legacy was playing BLS. It's extremely rare to hit 75% of your projectiles, you basically have to assume you'll hit half of your projectiles at most because of how random the spread pattern is, especially when you're using Conc which fucks it up abit. If you actually take out Multi and just turn on the Flask in your H/O you'll see that MS does some random shit where it spreads it in an arc around you. With Dying Sun it just makes it even worse.
If you're hitting 9 projectiles I'm hitting 18 out of 24 which we all know is a load of bullshit.
Arch, I'm using the Worm Flask as a conditional on kill/leech as a Slayer. If I was playing another class I'd use another flask like Sulphur.
The number of hits is relative and does really matter for dmg com%parison here. If target at dead center is only getting hit by 60% of the balls, then the balls from the 2 worms hit even less (30%) because they are way off center of the target. The number of hits increase is at max double, while the dmg per hit is only 54% in an ancestral call setup vs a gem switch setup with another multiplier gem instead.
So if the boss has no adds or few (which is pretty much everything from shaper, elder, guardians, atziri, breachlords... etc), your best bet would always swapping out ancestral call instead or sth else when doing those.
I only leave ancestral call in when doing chimera, lich and atziri's trio. Just to be clear ancestral call is always in when mapping it's a no brainer.
On January 17 2018 03:51 vndestiny wrote: The number of hits is relative and does really matter for dmg com%parison here. If target at dead center is only getting hit by 60% of the balls, then the balls from the 2 worms hit even less (30%) because they are way off center of the target. The number of hits increase is at max double, while the dmg per hit is only 54% in an ancestral call setup vs a gem switch setup with another multiplier gem instead.
So if the boss has no adds or few (which is pretty much everything from shaper, elder, guardians, atziri, breachlords... etc), your best bet would always swapping out ancestral call instead or sth else when doing those.
I only leave ancestral call in when doing chimera, lich and atziri's trio. Just to be clear ancestral call is always in when mapping it's a no brainer.
Uh, what?
I hope you know that if you're hitting the same ratio of balls, Ancestral Call literally wins out mathematically every single time versus any single damage gem you can put in. It's only if you hypothetically assume that you hit a higher ratio of balls with another support such as Conc or Damage on Full Life that you would win out, and that's not happening ever considering the spread of the balls with 12 projectiles is spread evenly in an arc, which means maybe 50% to 60% of the balls will ever actually hit.
This is assuming no Worms too. Do the math in PoB, if you use the same ratios of balls hitting and multiply the numbers out, AC wins by like 700k DPS to 1 million DPS.
Not to mention, I'm not sure where you got your math, but even if you're considering Ancestral Call a 54% damage multiplier, I hope you know that is actually pretty much the same as Conc or Damage on Full Life.
If you look at the spread of the Molten Strike here, this is actually what it would look like if you were popping a Dying Sun (15% AoE) with a Conc gem in. Spread might not be as bad, but you get the general idea of what MS looks like. I don't have Dying Sun on right now in league so I can't test, but you get the general idea (haven't gotten around to buying one yet).
You can test it out and look at the pattern extensively, there's no way 9 balls hit Shaper with a spread pattern like that.
On January 17 2018 09:40 -Archangel- wrote: I would say Dying Sun does not help you vs single target. Better to not use it.
It's not like Conc makes the spread any better, it in fact makes the ball explosions smaller. The arc is just reduced just a little, but it's still an arc.
According to this 6 month old DPS calculator Conc effect has a very low effect on the number of Molten Strike projecitle hits. Now that's before Ancestral Call, but I doubt it's much worse with it.
Here the guy did some vigorous test and Dying Sun increased the dps as expected 20% more (from 10 to 12 projectiles). This is because min roll Dying sun give only 15% aoe, with Conc Effect is a negligible increase.
People have vigorously test this, much like Firestorm, Concentrated Effect results in only 1% less hit rate, but a 54% more damage per hit creating 54% more dps basically.
@superstartran You are not getting me. There are 3 things here.
1) You have not addressed how are you gonna proc Ancestral Call when doing Shaper/Elder/Atiziri ??? It's a straight dps lost because no additional monster around. Why is no one addressing this, why leave it in if you cannot literally use it ?? Attack the ground used to work in the first few days of the league but they fixed it.
1a) If the answer is Writhing Jar then each jar only cover 2 attacks. Even with 3 flask it's only proccing Ancestral Call attack 6 times in a perfect scenario where none of the worms die before we attack them.That's less than 1 second then what ?? You kill Shaper within 6 attacks ??
2) You also have not addressed how swapping out Ancestral for Shaper only resulting in a 83% more dmg per hit. Each hit deals a truck load more dmg. And it's not even less hit cause how are you proccing Ancestral Call when doing boss ??
Imagine 1) is answered. The main attack at dead center where Shaper is. The 2 Ancestral Call attack off center from the main target. Why are you assuming those projectiles from Ancestral Call attack will hit Shaper the same % rate as the main attack when the origin point is so far out ?? Because those Ancestral Call projectiles hit rate will be much less than the main attack, total projectiles increase would be no more than double compare to swapping out ancestral call setup. Combine with 2) it will resulting in more hits but each hit deals much less dmg.
Again of course one use Ancestral Call when doing map or anything else. Against boss when it's just one target why on earth the Ancestral Call still in there for ?
Oh I figured out what, they fixed that Ancestral Call can spawn 2 additional targets, total to 3 no matter what. Now it's only 1 additional, total to 2, the nearby boss target and the ground where you attack.
Ok so the one spawn at the monster hit a% of y (12) projectiles, the one spawn at the ground since it's off-center will hits (12-x)% projectiles. You end up less than double the amount of projectiles originally, how would that out-weight 83% higher damage per projectile if you just swap ancestral call out to another multiplier support ??
On January 18 2018 03:54 vndestiny wrote: another multiplier support ??
Such as? I'm doing a phys/duelist version of the build so I can't speak for the Templar-y/ele claw variant which also seems popular, but for me my next most valuable links after multistrike-ele.focus-WED-conc is.... Slower proj? PPAD? Fire pen? All of which are NOT 50% more multis.
If there was another gem that could get me 40-50%+ like those do then it might be a close race, but everything else is like below 30%. With those numbers there is definitely an argument to make for the ancestral call glitch. The tri-ele claw has very different links so maybe it's different.
Not to mention that the optimal distance for hitting a target with MS isn't standing right on top of them anyway.
On January 18 2018 03:54 vndestiny wrote: Oh I figured out what, they fixed that Ancestral Call can spawn 2 additional targets, total to 3 no matter what. Now it's only 1 additional, total to 2, the nearby boss target and the ground where you attack.
Ok so the one spawn at the monster hit a% of y (12) projectiles, the one spawn at the ground since it's off-center will hits (12-x)% projectiles. You end up less than double the amount of projectiles originally, how would that out-weight 83% higher damage per projectile if you just swap ancestral call out to another multiplier support ??
Uh what?
Ancestral Call is a 70% more multiplier.
Conc, PPAD, and another gem doesn't even come close to that.
Calculate it out, Ancestral Call wins out, every, single, time. Because Ancestral Call also benefits from the extra projectiles, it has weird properties when it comes to calculating the DPS.
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/74N1rKS.jpg)
