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On January 18 2018 09:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 03:54 vndestiny wrote:
Oh I figured out what, they fixed that Ancestral Call can spawn 2 additional targets, total to 3 no matter what. Now it's only 1 additional, total to 2, the nearby boss target and the ground where you attack.
Ok so the one spawn at the monster hit a% of y (12) projectiles, the one spawn at the ground since it's off-center will hits (12-x)% projectiles. You end up less than double the amount of projectiles originally, how would that out-weight 83% higher damage per projectile if you just swap ancestral call out to another multiplier support ?? Uh what? Ancestral Call is a 70% more multiplier. Conc, PPAD, and another gem doesn't even come close to that. Calculate it out, Ancestral Call wins out, every, single, time. Because Ancestral Call also benefits from the extra projectiles, it has weird properties when it comes to calculating the DPS.
Ancestral Call is a 70% more multiplier even when account for for 16% less damage from the gem ? Cause that means the off-center projectiles hit rate is 83% of the one at main center of target and that's just not true. My setup just put EDWA into the Ancestral Call which actually gives 83% more damage (16% less to 54% more) so.
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What? The off center projectile hit rate only has to be 40% top out damage any other gem, run the calculations yourself. And hitting 40% to 50% of the off center projectiles is perfectly reasonable. Assuming that you're only hitting 45 to 50% of the projectiles you put out, Ancestral Call will out dps any gem, period, end of story.
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On January 18 2018 11:12 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 09:10 superstartran wrote:On January 18 2018 03:54 vndestiny wrote:
Oh I figured out what, they fixed that Ancestral Call can spawn 2 additional targets, total to 3 no matter what. Now it's only 1 additional, total to 2, the nearby boss target and the ground where you attack.
Ok so the one spawn at the monster hit a% of y (12) projectiles, the one spawn at the ground since it's off-center will hits (12-x)% projectiles. You end up less than double the amount of projectiles originally, how would that out-weight 83% higher damage per projectile if you just swap ancestral call out to another multiplier support ?? Uh what? Ancestral Call is a 70% more multiplier. Conc, PPAD, and another gem doesn't even come close to that. Calculate it out, Ancestral Call wins out, every, single, time. Because Ancestral Call also benefits from the extra projectiles, it has weird properties when it comes to calculating the DPS. Ancestral Call is a 70% more multiplier even when account for for 16% less damage from the gem ? Cause that means the off-center projectiles hit rate is 83% of the one at main center of target and that's just not true. My setup just put EDWA into the Ancestral Call which actually gives 83% more damage (16% less to 54% more) so.
My guess is he's doing the math assuming you do essentially "double damage" if the double fountain is happening. 16% less on the gem means 0.84, then double that is 1.68 or about +70%. It's not going to be exact, because the number of balls hitting from where the player is standing (just outside of namelock range) and the ancestor (right on top of the target) is probably slightly different, but it's not a bad way of looking at it. And honestly from anecdotal experience, it does feel damn close to double damage when I'm at the right distance, versus being too close and not getting an ancestor.
There's been other stuff he states that I disagree with heavily but with regards to thinking of AC as about 70% more multi (-ISH!) I've been doing the same in my head since the league started.
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On January 18 2018 11:30 superstartran wrote:
What? The off center projectile hit rate only has to be 40% top out damage any other gem, run the calculations yourself. And hitting 40% to 50% of the off center projectiles is perfectly reasonable. Assuming that you're only hitting 45 to 50% of the projectiles you put out, Ancestral Call will out dps any gem, period, end of story.
Without Ancestral Call it hits 70% of the projectile since everything center around target. You say the off-center hit will hit 40% of the time. That's only a (110/70*0.84) = 132% aka 32% more damage.
It will not out-perform Elemental Damage with Weapon which is the red gem I swap in for boss, 54% more damage there.
...any gem, period, end of story
Right...
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On January 18 2018 11:41 vndestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 11:30 superstartran wrote:
What? The off center projectile hit rate only has to be 40% top out damage any other gem, run the calculations yourself. And hitting 40% to 50% of the off center projectiles is perfectly reasonable. Assuming that you're only hitting 45 to 50% of the projectiles you put out, Ancestral Call will out dps any gem, period, end of story. Without Ancestral Call it hits 70% of the projectile since everything center around target. You say the off-center hit will hit 40% of the time. That's only a (110/70*0.84) = 132% aka 32% more damage. It will not out-perform Elemental Damage with Weapon which is the red gem I swap in for boss, 54% more damage there. Right...
Molten Strike doesn't hit 70% of the projectiles, ROFL. Are you not capable of reading the actually excel table you posted?
You're just making up fucking numbers to justify your position at this point just for the sake of argument. Every single test shows that Molten Strike no matter what gem, what AoE setup, no matter what flask you use, hits anywhere from 40% to 50%.
If you're talking about the same number of ratio of balls hitting, Ancestral Call absolutely shits on every single gem possible. You cannot assume that you will hit 70% of your balls which is absolute bullshit and then Ancestral Call will only hit 40%. That's not how it works, and I already proved it to you with how ghetto the fucking radius is on Molten Strike.
All it takes is for you to pull your numbers that you have in PoB, and multiply by the number of projectiles per second / 2. It's not that difficult to get an estimated Molten Strike DPS. 100% Ancestral Call will come out on top over EAD.
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On January 18 2018 11:41 vndestiny wrote:
Without Ancestral Call it hits 70% of the projectile since everything center around target
I think your 70% is where the confusion comes in. Based on the spreadsheet/calculator linked in the last few pages, as well as discussion I've seen elsewhere, the chance to hit per ball (or, number of your balls that hit per swing) is much closer to 50%.
superstartran could still stand to chill out a bit, but if you recheck your numbers assuming 50% of balls hit at namelock range you'll find that the AC glitch is pretty significant.
The real discussion should be about whether or not it's practical to assume one is always standing at the ideal range (just outside namelock) to get good ball coverage from the player while also proccing the ancestor. I can see a lot of people just not wanting to worry that much about positioning, especially if you don't play with force-stand or numlock trick. If you're playing a variant of the build that has another 50% gem you could substitute for AC it would be less to worry about during boss fights for a relatively small damage loss (150ish/170ish ~ 90%). Some builds don't have such a backup though, my next best according to PoB are Added Fire, Fire Pen, PPAD, slower proj, all around 20-30%
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Then why you're assuming the Ancestral Call off-target hit as much as 40% when the main center hit 40-50%. The off-center projectiles is hitting as much as 90% compare to those originate from the center of target ??. That simply widely inaccurate so I don't know what to tell you now. And the off-center projectiles need to hit at least 83% as much as the ones from center to outdo, how does that make sense.
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On January 18 2018 11:57 vndestiny wrote:
Then why you're assuming the Ancestral Call off-target hit as much as 40% when the main center hit 40-50%, the the off-center projectiles is hitting as much as 90% the one originate from the center of target ??. That simply widely inaccurate so I don't know what to tell you now. And the off-center projectiles need to hit at least 83% as much as the ones from center, how does that make sense.
You only need to stand BARELY outside namelock range for the ancestor to attack. So if ~50% of balls hit at namelock range then taking one step away shouldn't drop your ball hits much. Not below 40% at least I assume.
This is just based on my understanding from overall discussion and the spreadsheet. I haven't looked at slow mo detailed footage or anything.
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On January 18 2018 11:57 vndestiny wrote:
Then why you're assuming the Ancestral Call off-target hit as much as 40% when the main center hit 40-50%. The off-center projectiles is hitting as much as 90% compare to those originate from the center of target ??. That simply widely inaccurate so I don't know what to tell you now. And the off-center projectiles need to hit at least 83% as much as the ones from center to outdo, how does that make sense.
You just assumed that you are going to hit 70% of your molten strike balls when there's no way that is ever happening without cornering the boss into a wall. I'm not sure whether I should be taking you seriously anymore or not.
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On January 18 2018 12:08 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2018 11:57 vndestiny wrote:
Then why you're assuming the Ancestral Call off-target hit as much as 40% when the main center hit 40-50%. The off-center projectiles is hitting as much as 90% compare to those originate from the center of target ??. That simply widely inaccurate so I don't know what to tell you now. And the off-center projectiles need to hit at least 83% as much as the ones from center to outdo, how does that make sense. You just assumed that you are going to hit 70% of your molten strike balls when there's no way that is ever happening without cornering the boss into a wall. I'm not sure whether I should be taking you seriously anymore or not.
Yep I just realized for boss with radius of 3 the absolute max percentage one can get the projectile originate from center to hit is 48%.
Meanwhile you said the off-center projectiles can hit up to 40-50% of the time. I guess 50 < 48 so you know your numbers too, but still I think I should be taking you seriously.
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Now you're both just being petulant.
The ball hit ratio for namelock is 48%. Assuming that doesn't drop dramatically standing just outside namelock (let's pretend it's 40, the low end of what tran said), AC is giving you ABOUT (48+40)/48 * 0.84 = 54% more damage. If it was perfect and hitting the full namelock amount, then it'd be double, or 2*0.84 = 68% more damage at most. Don't split hairs. It's a very competitive single target gem for MS.
If you don't want to think about positioning and you have a ~50% multi alternative (like conc or something) then you could PREFER opting for the other one so you don't have to worry about optimal positioning on crazy boss fights. Just like how some people don't even PREFER to play MS at all because the delay on the balls dropping and such.
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Alright I will try out Ancestral Call for boss and see if ground projectiles will hit almost as much as the namelock one as you say. If it does, cool no longer need gem swapping. If not won't hurt to stick to what I have been doing then.
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I tried using both Multistrike and Ancestral Call vs bosses and I killed the boss faster with Multistrike everytime. Just targeting bosses directly and having all more multipliers in slots will give you more DPS.. in my experience.
And we cannot know the exact numbers until someone find out how much balls actually hit targets when using Ancestral Call, so until that moment I am always going to go by how it plays... and Ancestral Call in boss fights plays worse.
Also targeting directly gives you bonus damage from the melee strike (without AC damage penalty) and that hit cannot be ignored in these DPS calculations, it is actually only hit that we always know how much dps it does.
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On January 18 2018 17:21 -Archangel- wrote:
I tried using both Multistrike and Ancestral Call vs bosses and I killed the boss faster with Multistrike everytime.
Why do you keep comparing specifically AC and multistrike? Those are my two highest priority. What variation of the build are you doing and what are your other four links? It's more reasonable to compare AC to "the weakest of my 6L setup" so to speak.
I won't lie, when attempting Shaper and some of the Guardians and other bosses I can definitely see the appeal of not having to worry about that finicky positioning to get the AC glitch working and always getting your full dps. However, my next best link to replace AC with is <30% more damage. If I had another big money gem like WED or Conc that could get me over 50% then I'd definitely try replacing it just for the quality of life improvement on Shaper. But the next options are so weak that it's clearly superior to keep the AC and focus on getting the trick working when there are good dps windows.
Every variant and every level of gear and etc etc etc. is going to have its own best 5 links in the sim. I know the ele claw versions get a ton of mileage out of Added Lightning for example, something that the duelists would almost never touch. So if you're skeptical about AC, compare it specifically against your WORST 6th link. How much damage does that 6th link get you in the sim (or with your own math)? If it's around 50% or even higher then it's going to take practice and careful positioning to get AC to beat that in practice. If it's only around 20-30% maybe consider trying it. I know I can feel it every time it kicks in, and I've played with it enough to be used to the spacing for the most part, even when having to reposition frequently (it's the shit on the floor that really fucks me up though lol). But it's also easy to see why people would hate it too and just opt to go with an easy alternative at a relatively minor damage loss.
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For my MS char it's not even a choice, I want Multi AND Ancestral Call for the most balls and more LGOH. But I tried my 2nd best swap for Ancestral Call (according to PoB) in Fire Penetration and it was no apparent DPS upgrade so I don't bother with it anymore (aside from PvP).
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On January 18 2018 18:43 HolydaKing wrote:
For my MS char it's not even a choice, I want Multi AND Ancestral Call for the most balls and more LGOH. But I tried my 2nd best swap for Ancestral Call (according to PoB) in Fire Penetration and it was no apparent DPS upgrade so I don't bother with it anymore (aside from PvP).
That is something that is being completely overlooked here.
Alot of Molten Strike builds will be using Vitality LGOH Elder Jewel, and more projectiles = more sustain.
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Oh man, the Inpulsa's effect upgrade looks so good on my Poet's Pen character. Time to unquit the league?? Shame about losing the blood explosion sound effect and corpse though.
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I just got the ES gain on hit / discipline elder jewel. Boy is it silly. I guess there's a reason ES on hit for spells isn't really easy to come by anywhere.
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Its time
Add me fam, char name is Cuchalainn
-e- nvm, forgot I actually have a guild.
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Hey.
I have a character named BrokenLik and i'd like an invite to the guild, so i can chat.
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EPT
