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Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba |
On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Some people just want to plop-down $50-100 to be able to play all the characters whenever they want, but instead the model makes buying all the champions cost much, much more, and that's not including skins thrown-in.
That said, I actually like the current system. I'm a competitive guy, but not serious enough to want to drop money on the game -- I'm completely fine with purchasing the heroes I truly like and am or want to get good at. This is something I think Riot doesn't get enough credit for: encouraging people to actually get good at the game through one character a time.
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I'm not surprised at all. LoL is a very fun and friendly game. I'm glad that LoL has attracted so many players that hopefully some of them were first time gamers. It's always great to increase the gaming scene.
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Never tried it myself. Just read how Chu claimed it was a way inferior game (compared to HoN) after he switched for the bigger money- so I never was really interested.
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On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
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Does not surprise me that it has that huge number of players. But the problem is about whether it will grow even more/sustain that huge number of players. it might crash and burn if Riot doesn't revamp the replay/balance to make the competitive scene take off.
Also i dislike its business model and I firmly believe that a free to play-micro transaction game where in game things like heroes basically have to be purchased can't be competive. I know that some people disagree with this but it feels just so wrong.
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This doesn't suprise me at all. I play LoL quite a bit, you know why? Because its easy as hell. I don't have to concentrate, its basic as hell.
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On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote:
DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA.
Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
1.4 million daily players is a lot, but dota has more across all the platforms combined. More in China alone, in fact.
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On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
so they're basically either making you play the game more, or make you want to spend money to buy items from the shop. sounds like theyre doing it right to me.
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I play LoL quite a bit and enjoy it. As soon as Dota2 arrives though, unless they horribly fuck up the balance or something, LoL is probably going to be dead to me.
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On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly.
I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets.
It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
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On July 27 2011 02:03 dbddbddb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math. so they're basically either making you play the game more, or make you want to spend money to buy items from the shop. sounds like theyre doing it right to me.
Which is why it's a successful business model for them.
But then there's the guy(me) who realizes he doesn't want to spend 30 hours of play saving up for a mid-price champion or 60 hours for a high price champion and doesn't want to spend 10 times as much unlocking the roster for one game as he would on it's competitors. Not saying it's bad, I'm explaining why I don't like it.
On July 27 2011 02:06 howerpower wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math. 7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly. I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
I've spend 35 dollars, played over a thousand games and had 80ish%(now 60ish%) of the roster at the time, there was no way to keep up with the champion releases I wanted without playing it almost like a job or spending more money each week, this is what keeps it profitable but is also what puts me off.
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On July 27 2011 02:06 howerpower wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math. 7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly. I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
If that is the case then I would assume you own one or zero 6300 IP champs. Those champions break the bank. I love the system but I feel it is priced just a bit to high, especially the 6300 IP champions.
Edit: If you think about it a 6300 IP champion, costs about 50-60 games played as you receive around 80-140 IP per game depending on loss or win and not including first win of day bonus. That translates to a whole lot of hours, just for 1 high tier champion.
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On July 27 2011 02:01 Trowa127 wrote:
This doesn't suprise me at all. I play LoL quite a bit, you know why? Because its easy as hell. I don't have to concentrate, its basic as hell.
Ahaha, i feel the same way. When i feel like playing for real i play dota.
Im level 7 in LoL and i still outfarm all my level 30 opponents (who flame me for smurfing) because its so simple until you get into 5v5 premades, and even then most people are awful.
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On July 27 2011 02:09 Kappa09 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:06 howerpower wrote:On July 27 2011 01:55 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:49 Kappa09 wrote:On July 27 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote:On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote:
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success. I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there. As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks. Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game. It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go. The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives. Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math. 7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly. I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment. If that is the case then I would assume you own one or zero 6300 IP champs. Those champions break the bank. I love the system but I feel it is priced just a bit to high, especially the 6300 IP champions. Edit: If you think about it a 6300 IP champion, costs about 50-60 games played as you receive around 80-140 IP per game depending on loss or win and not including first win of day bonus. That translates to a whole lot of hours, just for 1 high tier champion.
You realize the goal isn't to catch 'em all?
and hey look at that! 2 weeks after he comes out you can play the shiny new character for free.
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On July 27 2011 02:14 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2011 02:01 Trowa127 wrote:
This doesn't suprise me at all. I play LoL quite a bit, you know why? Because its easy as hell. I don't have to concentrate, its basic as hell. Ahaha, i feel the same way. When i feel like playing for real i play dota. Im level 7 in LoL and i still outfarm all my level 30 opponents (who flame me for smurfing) because its so simple until you get into 5v5 premades, and even then most people are awful.
it is the same formula that has made WoW and CoD so big. low pressure, social gameplay, and stuff to grind for. everyone thinks they are the shit at LoL.
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I started playing 3-4 weeks ago. I find it to be pretty enjoyable (and addicting), and I do like the sense of progression. I've played about... 150 games, unlocked 11 champions. A 6300 IP one, a 3150 IP one, a couple of 1350 ones, and all the starters at 450. No where near a full rune set though (unless you're using a very loose definition of the word "full"- in my opinion a tier 3 of every single rune you want for one character is a full set- if you don't have that, you're hardly "full"), and I don't see how it would be possible to make one without a ton of games. Tier 3 runes cost a lot of IP.
The weekly champion rotations are nice though. Keeps things varied. Although the lack of any real tanks made last week somewhat comical between Mordekaiser and Maikao. xD
Also, yeah, the playerbase is pretty terrible. I'd say 2/5 of my games are ruined by someone leaving 5 minutes into the game.
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That big annoucement is season 2 I'm so surprised that they're trying to keep it a secret still its literaly the most obvious this to happen ever.
season 2 is going to be pretty big though I'm going to be looking forward to all the things they have that are gona come out with it.
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Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
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On July 27 2011 02:23 zer0das wrote:
I started playing 3-4 weeks ago. I find it to be pretty enjoyable (and addicting), and I do like the sense of progression. I've played about... 150 games, unlocked 11 champions. A 6300 IP one, a 3150 IP one, a couple of 1350 ones, and all the starters at 450. No where near a full rune set though (unless you're using a very loose definition of the word "full"- in my opinion a tier 3 of every single rune you want for one character is a full set- if you don't have that, you're hardly "full"), and I don't see how it would be possible to make one without a ton of games. Tier 3 runes cost a lot of IP.
The weekly champion rotations are nice though. Keeps things varied. Although the lack of any real tanks made last week somewhat comical between Mordekaiser and Maikao. xD
Also, yeah, the playerbase is pretty terrible. I'd say 2/5 of my games are ruined by someone leaving 5 minutes into the game.
League of Legends has a system for punishing leavers too which is nice. I play league of legends all the time when I don't feel like stressing myself out playing 1v1s (its a good stress but its still stress). Just kick back and make people rage with Karthus' ult, yes please!
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Reasons for popularity:
-You don't pay.
-No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots.
-Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon.
-From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17.
-You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
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EPT
