TL;DR - 15 millions registered players - ~1,4 million daily players - 500.000+ people IN A GAME at the same time = usual "peak" (emphasized because confirmed later, not "in the client", but in an actual game) - on average 10+ games start every second - RIOT as a company has 5 times more employees than it had in october 2009 - big announcement incoming "soon"
So, first off, this confirms what most of people assumed without solid proofs : League of legends is HUGE, even for a "free game", as it's not a simple farmville/freecell we're talking about but an actual video game with vast knowledge to be acquired and a steady-ish learning curve. This also valids several things : If 500k people is a non-exceptionnal peak (on week-ends I assume), the Dreamhack viewers don't seem that strange anymore, especially considering how many people watch games & competitions without playing that much themselves (real sports especially, but I think it's also true for Starcraft and other games, to an extent).
If somebody can bring up similar numbers for similar games or in comparison to others, it would be nice. For instance, Team Fortress 2 (biggest game on steam) peaked at 100k "active players when it went F2P, and stabilized again around a 65k "peak today". Which is pretty close to 1/10th of league of legends.
These numbers (and the ginormous growth of Riot in a few months) and the solid viewers numbers of a lot of streams probably justify it's addition in several big LAN events (lastly IEM and MLG). Just check http://clgaming.net/livestreams for an incomplete list of streams, usually anywhere from 15k to 40k viewers, up to MUCH higher numbers during tournaments or special events, and it's far from listing all the streams, it's mostly own3d.tv.
Feel free to discuss these things here, comparisons and point of views are welcome. BLIND HATRED isn't. Thanks for keeping the discussion here related and reasonable !
It blows my mind that the game could become this successful based on what it is. It was a fun game, but I always felt it really lacked the depth of some of it's competitors. At the end of the day, much like with Zynga and the like, I guess accessibility is what matters in terms of mass market success.
Good for them, it's a great casual games to kick back with some friends.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Not really surprising, sure the numbers are really big and that is awesome for them and for the games. It's really fun to play a few games once in a while.
I really liked the game but eventually got turned off by the sheer abusiveness of the player base. It was rarely even directed at me (used to be a DoTA player so I dont feed etc) but it finally drove me away. These are interesting numbers though. I may have a peek back in it to see if they've done anything to clear up/suspend abusive accounts. I had no idea it had gotten this large!
Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
It doesn't surprise me. It's the only competently designed, well executed free to play game that stands up against traditionally bought titles. It has set itself up excellent publicity, very solid community building and support compared to similar games and the gameplay itself is fantastic for a wide audience, though this is common to all the MOBA games.
One of the coolest things is that women seem to be almost as keen on this game as guys, I know almost as many girls who play it as guys, and they're often just as if not more competent. This isn't big news for gaming in general, but if LoL becomes a standard Esport, it could be a massive boon for degendering the community a bit.
I'm really looking forward to see how they run in the future because they're being a perfect model for how to get people to love you, build a reputation and make a shitload of money in the process.
This has been discussed to death, but everyone knows who is REALLY the League of Legends community (and i play the game with my friends that are afraid of playing sc2). Although the numbers show its popularity and the game has brought much to the DOTA like games, the horrible balance concept riot develops for its game, the incredibly horrible and casual (i cannot stress this enough) community, Bugs and horrible coding overall, will spell the downfall for league of legends (IMO) when its competitors release the next DOTA like games. In the end of the day, i´ll just say im a bit skeptical about LOL's lifespan, i just don´t see it happening. Its league of legends today, tomorrow something else.
And numbers are veeery relative, especially for e-sports. When WOW was the fad-of-the-month and had, easily the biggest fan-base, WOW arenas never got off, really.
On July 27 2011 01:31 Thereisnosaurus wrote: It doesn't surprise me. It's the only competently designed, well executed free to play game that stands up against traditionally bought titles. It has set itself up excellent publicity, very solid community building and support compared to similar games and the gameplay itself is fantastic for a wide audience, though this is common to all the MOBA games.
One of the coolest things is that women seem to be almost as keen on this game as guys, I know almost as many girls who play it as guys, and they're often just as if not more competent. This isn't big news for gaming in general, but if LoL becomes a standard Esport, it could be a massive boon for degendering the community a bit.
I'm really looking forward to see how they run in the future because they're being a perfect model for how to get people to love you, build a reputation and make a shitload of money in the process.
I feel like that's the only positive I'm really seeing to League of Legends as an eSport at the moment. The massive viewer base it may draw in, and the balancing of gender dominance in the community.
As far as competitive play goes, from what I've seen it's been pretty stale and somewhat disappointing, the game just lacks real action, flare or moments that make you sit up and notice that something was difficult to execute. I feel the success of the game can be largely attributed to it's "easy to pick up" play but they sort of fumbled on that "hard to master" part in my opinion, also it's just not very visually interesting to me as a spectator. Unlike Starcraft 2 or DotA which is both fun to play and watch, I find League of Legends to merely be fun to play.
I used to be a hater of League of Legends and all things DOTA related. That was almost completely because I had such a bad experience getting into DOTA back in the day, because the learning curve was so huge. I remember trying to play DOTA as a complete noob and trying to learn every detail about the game, but this was not made possible by all the BM I received for being a noob. It made that genre unattractive to me, because I was never given the chance to learn.
However, only a few months ago I finally started playing LOL. My friends had finally convinced me. League of Legends was far different from what I expected based on DOTA. I was actually placed into matches with people of my own skill level and learning the game was a breeze. I quickly learned the basics and was even ready to play arranged matches with my high level friends. Of course I was outmatched when playing with them and wouldn't do the best, but I still had a lot of fun because I was playing with people I knew.
In my opinion League of Legends is a great game and it still has a lot more to offer with new game styles and maps that Riot has promised. I know there is the constant argument that League is not a competitive game and that very easy to learn, and you might think this is true based on my above explanation. However, what people don't realize is that very much like Starcraft 2 ladder, the games scale based on your current level (1-30). And you can only truly play the "competitive" games, once you reach level 30. It is quite annoying to hear people say: "Well I made a LOL account and absolutely destroyed in my first game, EZ MODE." They fail to realize that they are playing with new people and if you have experience with games like DOTA of course you will do much better. People need to play the game in ranked, where it really counts to judge the competitiveness.
None the less I think LOL is an amazing game with great Characters that all seem to have their own personality, which I feel HON is lacking. I have fallen in love with a lot of the characters in LOL and some of their skins, which is not something I can say the same for HON.
I am glad to see that League of Legends is doing well and I hope that it can thrive along Starcraft 2 in e-sports.
MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
On July 27 2011 01:29 rawrx wrote: I'm curious as to what's going to happen once DotA 2 is released...
Not gonna be as big if it isn't free and i'm sure it won't be. In some ways it can be a blessing though.. Lol probably gonna continue being the biggest.
LoL is simply the best MOBA game period, and nothing I've seen of DotA 2 makes me doubt that.
A lot needs to be done before it has a long term future as an E-Sport like SC2(making more than just the players watch), but Riot has the time, ambition, and resources needed to achieve that goal.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
Yep, I completely agree. This is mostly what has kept my attention to league of legends, the sense of progression with IP and acquiring new characters. The fact that all characters are not available is something that League of Legends has been criticized for a lot, especially by HON players. However I feel that is one of the best features of this game in comparison to others. This system keeps you playing for those extra hours, because you have an objective to accomplish.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
Yep, I completely agree. This is mostly what has kept my attention to league of legends, the sense of progression with IP and acquiring new characters. The fact that all characters are not available is something that League of Legends has been criticized for a lot, especially by HON players. However I feel that is one of the best features of this game in comparison to others. This system keeps you playing for those extra hours, because you have an objective to accomplish.
The nice thing about what the game lacks if the developers are working towards solutions, however slowly. A spectator mode is on the way, and replays are already viable thanks to the keen folks over at LoL Replay (google it.)
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Some people just want to plop-down $50-100 to be able to play all the characters whenever they want, but instead the model makes buying all the champions cost much, much more, and that's not including skins thrown-in.
That said, I actually like the current system. I'm a competitive guy, but not serious enough to want to drop money on the game -- I'm completely fine with purchasing the heroes I truly like and am or want to get good at. This is something I think Riot doesn't get enough credit for: encouraging people to actually get good at the game through one character a time.
I'm not surprised at all. LoL is a very fun and friendly game. I'm glad that LoL has attracted so many players that hopefully some of them were first time gamers. It's always great to increase the gaming scene.
Never tried it myself. Just read how Chu claimed it was a way inferior game (compared to HoN) after he switched for the bigger money- so I never was really interested.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
Does not surprise me that it has that huge number of players. But the problem is about whether it will grow even more/sustain that huge number of players. it might crash and burn if Riot doesn't revamp the replay/balance to make the competitive scene take off.
Also i dislike its business model and I firmly believe that a free to play-micro transaction game where in game things like heroes basically have to be purchased can't be competive. I know that some people disagree with this but it feels just so wrong.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
1.4 million daily players is a lot, but dota has more across all the platforms combined. More in China alone, in fact.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
so they're basically either making you play the game more, or make you want to spend money to buy items from the shop. sounds like theyre doing it right to me.
I play LoL quite a bit and enjoy it. As soon as Dota2 arrives though, unless they horribly fuck up the balance or something, LoL is probably going to be dead to me.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly.
I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
so they're basically either making you play the game more, or make you want to spend money to buy items from the shop. sounds like theyre doing it right to me.
Which is why it's a successful business model for them.
But then there's the guy(me) who realizes he doesn't want to spend 30 hours of play saving up for a mid-price champion or 60 hours for a high price champion and doesn't want to spend 10 times as much unlocking the roster for one game as he would on it's competitors. Not saying it's bad, I'm explaining why I don't like it.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly.
I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
I've spend 35 dollars, played over a thousand games and had 80ish%(now 60ish%) of the roster at the time, there was no way to keep up with the champion releases I wanted without playing it almost like a job or spending more money each week, this is what keeps it profitable but is also what puts me off.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly.
I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
If that is the case then I would assume you own one or zero 6300 IP champs. Those champions break the bank. I love the system but I feel it is priced just a bit to high, especially the 6300 IP champions.
Edit: If you think about it a 6300 IP champion, costs about 50-60 games played as you receive around 80-140 IP per game depending on loss or win and not including first win of day bonus. That translates to a whole lot of hours, just for 1 high tier champion.
On July 27 2011 02:01 Trowa127 wrote: This doesn't suprise me at all. I play LoL quite a bit, you know why? Because its easy as hell. I don't have to concentrate, its basic as hell.
Ahaha, i feel the same way. When i feel like playing for real i play dota. Im level 7 in LoL and i still outfarm all my level 30 opponents (who flame me for smurfing) because its so simple until you get into 5v5 premades, and even then most people are awful.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Alright, quite simply it's an easy way for you to get into the game because it lets you start out small and work your way up without having to invest too much money into the game.
It doesn't take me long to get used to characters, I like having access to more characters, I feel like systems of progression can be good but when they're made to sort of keep you on a hamster-wheel it becomes detrimental. If, you're on one end of the spectrum it's great, you play for fun and unlock as you go.
The other point of view is simple, there is no middle ground. It's either a massive time investment to unlock content or a massive financial investment to unlock content. For 5 champions, you could purchase the entirety of Heroes of Newerth for example, so, say I don't want to spend 30 hours to unlock one of mid cost champions, I'll soon find myself investing more into the game than the standard retail alternatives.
Having better designed bundles or a "build your own bundle" option would help this a little, but ultimately an option to unlock every hero forever for $60 is still going to be more value for money. League of Legends is great as long as you play it as a free game and have tons of time to burn, but as far as value for money goes, it's abysmal if you actually do the math.
7 Free characters a week, It doesn't take long AT ALL to save up to buy the tier 1 toons (only 4-5 games max). The system works perfectly.
I've only played 200 games and I have unlocked 15 toons and have made 2 full rune sets. It is the farthest thing from a time investment.
If that is the case then I would assume you own one or zero 6300 IP champs. Those champions break the bank. I love the system but I feel it is priced just a bit to high, especially the 6300 IP champions.
Edit: If you think about it a 6300 IP champion, costs about 50-60 games played as you receive around 80-140 IP per game depending on loss or win and not including first win of day bonus. That translates to a whole lot of hours, just for 1 high tier champion.
You realize the goal isn't to catch 'em all? and hey look at that! 2 weeks after he comes out you can play the shiny new character for free.
On July 27 2011 02:01 Trowa127 wrote: This doesn't suprise me at all. I play LoL quite a bit, you know why? Because its easy as hell. I don't have to concentrate, its basic as hell.
Ahaha, i feel the same way. When i feel like playing for real i play dota. Im level 7 in LoL and i still outfarm all my level 30 opponents (who flame me for smurfing) because its so simple until you get into 5v5 premades, and even then most people are awful.
it is the same formula that has made WoW and CoD so big. low pressure, social gameplay, and stuff to grind for. everyone thinks they are the shit at LoL.
I started playing 3-4 weeks ago. I find it to be pretty enjoyable (and addicting), and I do like the sense of progression. I've played about... 150 games, unlocked 11 champions. A 6300 IP one, a 3150 IP one, a couple of 1350 ones, and all the starters at 450. No where near a full rune set though (unless you're using a very loose definition of the word "full"- in my opinion a tier 3 of every single rune you want for one character is a full set- if you don't have that, you're hardly "full"), and I don't see how it would be possible to make one without a ton of games. Tier 3 runes cost a lot of IP.
The weekly champion rotations are nice though. Keeps things varied. Although the lack of any real tanks made last week somewhat comical between Mordekaiser and Maikao. xD
Also, yeah, the playerbase is pretty terrible. I'd say 2/5 of my games are ruined by someone leaving 5 minutes into the game.
Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
On July 27 2011 02:23 zer0das wrote: I started playing 3-4 weeks ago. I find it to be pretty enjoyable (and addicting), and I do like the sense of progression. I've played about... 150 games, unlocked 11 champions. A 6300 IP one, a 3150 IP one, a couple of 1350 ones, and all the starters at 450. No where near a full rune set though (unless you're using a very loose definition of the word "full"- in my opinion a tier 3 of every single rune you want for one character is a full set- if you don't have that, you're hardly "full"), and I don't see how it would be possible to make one without a ton of games. Tier 3 runes cost a lot of IP.
The weekly champion rotations are nice though. Keeps things varied. Although the lack of any real tanks made last week somewhat comical between Mordekaiser and Maikao. xD
Also, yeah, the playerbase is pretty terrible. I'd say 2/5 of my games are ruined by someone leaving 5 minutes into the game.
League of Legends has a system for punishing leavers too which is nice. I play league of legends all the time when I don't feel like stressing myself out playing 1v1s (its a good stress but its still stress). Just kick back and make people rage with Karthus' ult, yes please!
-You don't pay. -No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots. -Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon. -From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17. -You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
As I come from the complete opposite side of this argument, could you please explain why you despise the system? I am quite interested in understanding why some people are against it. Thanks.
Buying all the champions is ridiculously expensive and then you have to spend a RIDICULOUS amount of time grinding runes. I've played LoL since November last year I think and I don't have all the heroes, only maybe half of them, and far from having enough runes to be able to play any champion I like. That's just really bad. There needs to be a full version giving you access to all champions and maybe enough IP to buy roughly half of all rune types for $100-$150 or something like that.
On July 27 2011 02:32 alkow wrote: 15 million registered players is misleading. I think I have seven separate accounts.
Of course it is everyone knows that, what isn't misleading is the rest of the figures
What stopped me playing was the RP/IP system. To me, it made a competitive MOBA game feel like an MMO with an insane grind. Fun game though, but I prefer MOBAs where all game-altering content is available from the get-go.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature.
I think WoW's failure as an esport had nothing to do with simplicity, in a lot of ways you could compare it to 5v5 team fights in a MOBA, except instead of 4 spells, you have over 30 and can go on for half an hour. If anything, I would argue it's bad as an esport because specatation of matches isn't fun as you really can't tell what's going on half the time. It also doesn't have the element of hidden information from one team where the audience understands what is happening but the opposing team doesn't (SC/Poker/LoL).
As for LoL becoming an esport... I will give it a chance and watch some pro matches. What I've seen from playing it at least, aggression is highly rewarded which always makes for tense moments.
What I don't like about the game is the patching, and I think a lot SC players would agree with me. They NEVER let the meta game settle and roll out new nerfs/buffs very frequently. To me, a lot of them feel like knee jerk reactions to forum whining.
-From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17.
Huge turn-off for e-sports (and older gamers in general), indirectly at least. You can't get people practicing 8 hours a day if they've still got school to go to.
I never really played the game myself (not interested in MOBA games at all) so I can't comment on balance, difficulty etc.
Dota, HoN, Lol...they're all the same. Fun to play, but unfit as an esport. You basically has to have played the game to get any viewing pleasure whatsoever.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature.
I think WoW's failure as an esport had nothing to do with simplicity, in a lot of ways you could compare it to 5v5 team fights in a MOBA, except instead of 4 spells, you have over 30 and can go on for half an hour. If anything, I would argue it's bad as an esport because specatation of matches isn't fun as you really can't tell what's going on half the time. It also doesn't have the element of hidden information from one team where the audience understands what is happening but the opposing team doesn't (SC/Poker/LoL).
As for LoL becoming an esport... I will give it a chance and watch some pro matches. What I've seen from playing it at least, aggression is highly rewarded which always makes for tense moments.
What I don't like about the game is the patching, and I think a lot SC players would agree with me. They NEVER let the meta game settle and roll out new nerfs/buffs very frequently. To me, a lot of them feel like knee jerk reactions to forum whining.
Personally I feel that the biggest obstacle for competitive LoL gaining popularity are the casters. I watch the ESL games every week and I'm constantly amazed by how little the casters know what the hell they're talking about.
*huge fight going on* *colby, (controlling the camera) is looking at dragon* "uhhh and yeah, killing this dragon here gives everyone a gold bonus" *massive teamfight still going on* "but before you kill it you should put a ward here, and-" *someone dies* "Oh there's a fight going on!" *fight is over and both teams are retreating*
On July 27 2011 02:49 LittLeD wrote: Dota, HoN, Lol...they're all the same. Fun to play, but unfit as an esport. You basically has to have played the game to get any viewing pleasure whatsoever.
On the contrary, since the game is free, more people will have played the game. So therefore more people will enjoy watching it.
-From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17.
Huge turn-off for e-sports (and older gamers in general), indirectly at least. You can't get people practicing 8 hours a day if they've still got school to go to.
I never really played the game myself (not interested in MOBA games at all) so I can't comment on balance, difficulty etc.
And how has that affected BW/SC2 whose pros are for the most part the same age as the LoL pros. That might be the most ridiculous argument in any of the "Is LoL viable as an ESPORT" arguments I have seen.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature.
I think WoW's failure as an esport had nothing to do with simplicity, in a lot of ways you could compare it to 5v5 team fights in a MOBA, except instead of 4 spells, you have over 30 and can go on for half an hour. If anything, I would argue it's bad as an esport because specatation of matches isn't fun as you really can't tell what's going on half the time. It also doesn't have the element of hidden information from one team where the audience understands what is happening but the opposing team doesn't (SC/Poker/LoL).
As for LoL becoming an esport... I will give it a chance and watch some pro matches. What I've seen from playing it at least, aggression is highly rewarded which always makes for tense moments.
What I don't like about the game is the patching, and I think a lot SC players would agree with me. They NEVER let the meta game settle and roll out new nerfs/buffs very frequently. To me, a lot of them feel like knee jerk reactions to forum whining.
Personally I feel that the biggest obstacle for competitive LoL gaining popularity are the casters. I watch the ESL games every week and I'm constantly amazed by how little the casters know what the hell they're talking about.
*huge fight going on* *colby, (controlling the camera) is looking at dragon* "uhhh and yeah, killing this dragon here gives everyone a gold bonus" *massive teamfight still going on* "but before you kill it you should put a ward here, and-" *someone dies* "Oh there's a fight going on!" *fight is over and both teams are retreating*
Agreed here, the casters for LoL are really bad at the moment. I hope at some point a few people are able to step up and fill this role. There is no Tastosis or Day9/DjWheat/Chill combo at the moment. Of the situation you described above, Phreak is probably the worst offender. He loves to zoom into a random character or model only to miss a big gank or team fight.
1. None of the players played to win. Everyone tried to act all high and mighty by playing the same comps that they played since TBC even if they werent viable anymore. Made the scene extremely boring to watch. The only team that tried to actually play competitively was checksix, and look at that they dominated the scene for the games last year as an esport.
2. Blizzard has no support for the pvp scene. If theres a problem with a pve boss it gets fixed in a day. If theres a problem with the arena system blizzard fixes it in terms of months.
LoL is understandably popular; it's free, easy to play, colourful and stylized. As Esports go however, I don't think it is a valid game. The skill cap is very low, and getting lower with each patch. HoN has a much higher skill cap and is generally extremely fun to watch at the competitive level, but is not as much fun to play because its community is quite unforgiving of any play other than perfect.
I really hope DotA2 takes the best of both games because I do believe there is room in Esports for this genre of game.
-You don't pay. -No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots. -Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon. -From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17. -You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
I am(was , actually I'm mad at Dota because it made me miss years of BW) a Dota guy, just played a couple of LoL matches, but people were kinda...hm...very bad, and when I found out about that WoW-like tree of talents and "buying champions" to use it lost all the interest as a competitive game to me. If these about not having a massive support role with no tri-lanes and no mana management are true...I am disappoint.
The thing to take into account also, is the possibility if LoL becomes hugs esports/sponsorwise that DotA and HoN "stars" will play it at high level. One of the problems of the game atm is that top teams arent that fantastic individualities wise. They have great teamplay usually but are often lackluster "skillwise".
If DotA2 isnt that much of a success (I do hope it is, don't take me wrong) it might very well happen too.
I love league of legends, For a free game I find the quality outstanding and its cool to see the growth it has accomplished. It is definitely not perfect; the servers are occasionally unreliable, the chat breaks quite often, people disconnect all the time, the client bugs out and hotkeys wont work or health bars won't show up. But again, the game is free and the fun I have outweighs these cons.
As an epsort it can be awkward to watch, so much happens on the map at the same time that even good commentators won't catch it wall. Despite this there were more than 100k people watching the LoL stream during Dreamhack. It is still quite watchable and I think that as commentators get better this will be less of an issue.
The game does have some balance issues, a few champions are broken to some extent but there are few situations where this causes an autowin. There are not very many true hard counters and even the OPish champs have their own counters.
My biggest complaint with the game are the people who play it. The LoL community has been described as "caustic" which is quite accurate and even a nice way of putting it. Trash talk and flaming is seemingly mandatory. This seems to be a MOBA thing in general but I hate it. Watch any pro team member stream and you will find that successful teamwork at high level play revolves around which team says "what the fuck", "get raped", and "nigga" the most.
The BM is easy to avoid. I play almost exclusively with RL friends and good mannered people I've met in matchmaking.
On July 27 2011 02:32 alkow wrote: 15 million registered players is misleading. I think I have seven separate accounts.
Of course it is everyone knows that, what isn't misleading is the rest of the figures
What stopped me playing was the RP/IP system. To me, it made a competitive MOBA game feel like an MMO with an insane grind. Fun game though, but I prefer MOBAs where all game-altering content is available from the get-go.
honestly for anyone that should consider theirself a gamer, it takes no time at all to get whatever content you want.
and for people who don't consider theirself gamers, I don't see why it should matter
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
I agree with this, fantastic to see so many people just watching video games.
But it really depends on what roads E-Sports is going to take in the future on picking games; Number of Viewers/Fans? Or the quality of the game as an ESport
On July 27 2011 03:20 Looky wrote: doubt LoL will be an esport game. Valve Dota2 will bring all the competitive MOBA players together i think. leaving LoL with only the casual players.
LoL had ~200k viewers during DreamHack while Sc2 had 60k and Sc2 is very much an esport game. At what point does a game become an esport game?
On July 27 2011 02:58 BloodNinja wrote: Phreak is probably the worst offender. He loves to zoom into a random character or model only to miss a big gank or team fight.
Yuuuup...
I can't stand games being casted by Phreak or Grackis. Painful to watch t.t
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
I agree with this, fantastic to see so many people just watching video games.
But it really depends on what roads E-Sports is going to take in the future on picking games; Number of Viewers/Fans? Or the quality of the game as an ESport
Viewers/Fans of course. Just look at normal sports. There are a few thousand great sports, only like 20-30 have people that live by playing them...
As for LoL, fun game for a while. Makes me want to play DotA each time I play it though. So I do play DotA instead. I miss playing pure support and denying.
-You don't pay. -No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots. -Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon. -From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17. -You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
I am(was , actually I'm mad at Dota because it made me miss years of BW) a Dota guy, just played a couple of LoL matches, but people were kinda...hm...very bad, and when I found out about that WoW-like tree of talents and "buying champions" to use it lost all the interest as a competitive game to me. If these about not having a massive support role with no tri-lanes and no mana management are true...I am disappoint.
- there's no tri-laning because basically every team can have a jungler/forester - there are support chars - mana "management" is significantly less important... but it's more fun to be able to do things other than last hit/deny in a lane. It's a major reason why the game is so popular compared to others in the genre.
-You don't pay. -No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots. -Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon. -From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17. -You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
This is an interesting way to look at it. I've played thousands of games in: dota, hon and LoL.
No one can dispute the genre altering F2P model they have cleverly used to great financial success. Most of us here come from competitive games and want more than an engaging, free experience however. My complaints with the game are much more relevant now because of LoL shoving its way into our favorite LAN tournaments world wide. Including the MLG and IEM circuits. There was a great Lo3 segment that carmac appeared on about the "numbers" factor in terms of competitive gaming.
I don't think LoL has the legs to carry on as a competitive sport that I PERSONALLY care about. I don't find high level play fun, I don't really like the champions compared to DotA/HoN counterparts and I really think summoner spells are retarded. It obviously has the numbers, but the game just isn't difficult or impressive enough to keep my interest.
I hope that LoL keeps a steady flow of new talent coming into esports, but those talented players move on to DotA 2 or SC2 or something.
My 2cents on the whole thing. I've been playing LoL for ~6-7 weeks, already level 26, almost 27. I play A LOT with my friends, since its been summer.
I like how people buying stuff in the game with real money, doesn't actually affect the gameplay. Anything relating to gameplay can be accessed just buy playing, which is completely fine by me. One of the biggest turn offs for most FTP (free to play), is that there are always items that people always pay to get, that is somewhat imbalanced or ridiculous. However LoL has struck a good balance between Microtransactions and FTP.
People dislike LoL's champ rotation concept, unlike Dota where all champs are free. I really like the champ rotation idea, its really noob friendly. If you handed me HoN or DOTA, the first 100 games would all be with different champions, and I wouldn't get good until I've played a thousand games. By limiting the number of champions shown a week, it does 1 of 2 things. First it quickly allows noobs to acclimate to a small packet of heroes every week, 2ndly it allows players to test drive champs, and make them want to buy a champ later on. For example the first game of LoL I played was with Heimerdinger, he was free that week. I fell in love instantly, I soon quickly saved up a shit ton of IP just to purchase him, and I played the shit out of him. Then moved onto another champ. I don't think I've purchased a single champ that I haven't test played with during a free week, which is something I love about it.
Why I don't think LoL will be a good esports game. It suffers the same thing Street Fighter suffers from, it's simply too fast. Yes the observers can see whats going on around the map, however the main problem is that team battles are too fast, and that the audience can't catch the nuances of the battle. Also the battle happens to fast for the commentators to actually commentate. Unlike SC2 where actions are fairly easy to notice (feedbacks/snipes/fungals/positioning/ so on), its also slow enough to where commentators can commentate on a lot of the deliberate action of the players.
Just my 2 cents, fairly reasonable examination of the game. Congrats to riot gaming, hope you guys continue to grow, can't wait for season 2!
I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
This. LoL is one of the easiest games to play with a friend. It doesn't require much in terms of l33t computer, is absolutely free (to a complete newb it doesn't matter if they don't have the 6300 champions), and is a team game that can be taught with ease (fast learning curve).
In my old high school there used to be like 20-30 people playing that I knew of, pretty crazy.
One of the main reasons the IP/RP system works so well for League of Legends is the free champion rotation. You could play every hero in the game without ever having to spend IP on one, let alone real money. In addition you get to try out heroes before you spend IP or real money on them.
It's just such an amazing balance between having access to all of the champions without spending money or theoretically any time, a free to play game, and an incredible sense of progression. IMO it's the number one reason LoL has had so much success. It's infinitely more accessible to new players with limited champions available from the start, and for me personally, the progression makes it better than DOTA/HoN.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
They've got all the time in the world. Valve time is inception-esque.
On July 27 2011 01:29 rawrx wrote: I'm curious as to what's going to happen once DotA 2 is released...
Had you asked me that 2 years ago, I would have just said, people would have ended up trying out the new fad for a while till they got bored. However over the last 6 months, with it's growth and all... I would say it would at the very least need to launch as F2P, and even then, your talking about facing off against a growing player base of people who have grown to cherish every champion/skin they decide to buy...
Just saying you would sooner try to move a mountain than try and make that many players abandon what they now own for whatever model DOTA2 decides to try... and seeing who currently owns the rights, they will probably make it F2P with options to buy hats.
It doesn't seem that surprising. At PAX East, Riot announced that their player base had been doubling every three months. That's just a stupidly high growth rate.
On July 27 2011 03:51 Novalisk wrote: It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
I think Riot's plan for this might just be "get everyone in the world to play the game". Problem solved!
The numbers are impressive, but not terribly surprising to me. All indications I'd seen were pointing at the playerbase being immense, and Riot decided to confirm that.
i dont like games as an esport or sport in general, where everything done looks like some random guy could pull it off as well. lol just doesnt have those wow-moments where i think: damn, that were super impressive skills and there was probably lots of practice behind this.
dont get me wrong, i like lol and i still see it as an ok esport, because its kinda fun to watch, but lol as a prime esport would be terribe for progaming and a huge setback after we had games like q3 or of course bw.
I play Lol a long time but now I leave the game. Why? because the login time was 3 hours (ok now they fix it). Then lol has 2 maps (soon 3) but 80 champions. So i would play lol if they have 6 maps but 3 maps are boring after 2000 matches. (not kidding)
and free to play ofc but my friend pay for skins and other things 80€.... and now i get a ban for my opinion....
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
Honestly, I think Starcraft is harder to understand. New players don't even understand the benefits of expanding and constant worker production, and they actually play the game. Unless the game in a early rush, someone with not experience whatsoever playing an RTS will probally not understand it at all. Have you seen those videos were they are trying to teach someone and they don't even know how to mine minerals?
They don't need to understand how each item or hero works, noone with zero experience will understand things like that about any game. You won't know the moves of a figthing game either, even if they are lot fewer than the items on a MOBA. An FPS is probally the only genre I can think off where someone clueless about the game can ussually see what the weapons do very easily. As long it's not a weird futuristic game.
The problem with MOBAs is that there is too much action going on in diferent places, it's hard to show the right lane in the beggining if you haven't seen the game before. It's also too long, most of the time, with small peaks with a lot of action surrounded by a lot of passivity. I can't point out what's the exact problem, but it definatelly is not one of the most viewer friendly genres.
I do think, though, that games to be sucessfull don't need to attract people to watch if they don't play them. They should attract people to play it, and then watch it. If the game looks fun enough for a viewer to try it, even if he is not actually understanding much, and it's free on top of it, that's probally the best way for it to grow. I'm not sure we will ever reach a point where a significant margin of viewers have never played the game at all.
Oh wow I knew it was big, but not THAT big. O_O I don't really play LoL, just when my friends call me to fill their team. I feel like it is a great casual game to play with some friends, but I would never join a random session by myself. <_<
Let's see if DotA 2 will break those big numbers tho. :D
here's my take on lol, and i say this everytime i go into a lol related thread. former lol player, still love the game to death.
Also this was my opinion from like 2-3 months ago, not sure if it's still valid.
A little introduction about my past dota background
In 2009 LoL was seen as a dying game. HoN was going to crush it. It was seen as a cartoonish mockery of the real game. No denies and casual were the main complaints, and as a former DotA player during 2009 I was mocking it too. Free to play and microtransfers? Seemed like shit to me. Anyways during early 2010 I was at this internet cafe and LoL was on it. HoN was down, there was no DotA. Me and my friend tried LoL for shits and giggles, but it was kind of fun. Every since then I played it almost religiously.
The reason why it's got a huge playerbase is the same reason why I started playing, it's addictive as fuck. Here are some reasons why it's got a huge playerbase. I just want to emphasize how important playerbase is. If you have a ton of players, esports comes easier the game is more successful etc. The games success is based on the players, and the players dictate the competitive scene.
1. The learning curve was SO MUCH easier then DotA. You went to pub games learned the hard way and get cursed at for 30 straight games in DotA, you didn't learn efficiently. LoL changed that by introducing matchmaking which started at such a low level. You played people the same level as you. This was such a huge improvement, in DotA you only got into the game by friends introducing you and teaching you.
2. Design philosophy. You can read a lot of posts by Zileas, they emphasize the forgiving and fighting features of the game. In DotA you lose in lane you're down 400 gold, in LoL you die you don't lose gold. In DotA you get less gold for kills, LoL you get way more. The design philosophy of LoL is that dying in dota creates negative fun, killing creates some fun. I emphasize some fun because you don't feel as good making people lose gold, you feel better when you get gold and see your own progression. So in low levels of LoL where people constantly kill eachother and die, they can only see progression.
A BIG BIG one is mana management. It's tedious thinking to yourself "i only have 2 fissures left". In LoL they nerfed all the mana costs and you can have mana regen runes giving yourself a TON of mana early. This allows players to be less meticulous.
There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
3. It's free. You got an addictive game design, you got an early learning curve and you've got a pretty good designed game. And it's the DotA genre(some call it MOBA) which has proven to be a good genre. Obviously it's going to be somewhat successful.
Some people criticize the game for having microtransfers, well to be honest it doesn't make that big of a difference. You don't need to buy every hero in the game. You can also earn the heroes through playing. It's actually so much less of an impact on the game then you would think. It's like 95% skill, 5 % runes/heroes and at the same time you can spend a ton of money on the game and feel satisfied. I really want to emphasize how little buying riot points actually improves your game play, but at the same time it creates more fun. It's a win win situation
Now that's how LoL got popular. The problem with LoL is that it was never meant to be played at a high level. Games like fighting games/sc2/sc1 were balanced at the high level, LoL can't do that. Somewhere like 20% of fighting game players are hardcore, maybe 5% of sc2 players and 40% of broodwar players. These are made up numbers, but it's somewhat accurate. In LoL like 50% of players are hella bad. The hella bad players in LoL can't improve either. Improving in DotA genres is a different topic lol.
Anyways LoL is a great game for playing. For esports there is a big problem. It's incredibly hard to cater to both populations, the hardcore and the bad. In WoW they had to completely divide PVP and PVE in order to balance it. There were so many problems in WoW for PVP, for example ret pallies were tearing shit up in wotlk. They were the ultimate dueling character, battleground character, BUT they were never super overpowered in arena. Blizzard nerfed ret to the ground. Obviously ret pallies were mad. For example in high level play twitch was way less intimidating then in mid level player where wards and oracles aren't bought. They still nerfed the bejeesus outa him. I guess what I'm trying to say is balancing is hard, it's hard when you balance to one group of people, it's hard to balance 3 races, and it's hella fucking hard to balance 70 heroes.
Also there is another problem with LoL esports, how boring it is. I want to end off my rant/essay whatever because it's getting fucking long, so i'll make it short.
heroes getting ton of gold from kills -> the game becomes a snowball effect at high levels.
getting fed is a bad problem at high levels because a good player will keep the advantage
objectives that are supposed to create battle and excitement (dragon/baron) cause the game to snowball in victors favour.
wards are too strong, counterwarding is harder
losing map control leads to massive repercussions
once you're down that hard you rely on opponent to fuck up
all this is a non factor at low levels because they can't manipulate the game well enough.
oh and i gotta put in how riot didn't have replays and observers for about 2 years up here somewhere, disregard for esports until recently
Thanks for reading, in conclusion I love the game to death but it's got some problems when it comes to esports.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
Honestly, I think Starcraft is harder to understand. New players don't even understand the benefits of expanding and constant worker production, and they actually play the game. Unless the game in a early rush, someone with not experience whatsoever playing an RTS will probally not understand it at all. Have you seen those videos were they are trying to teach someone and they don't even know how to mine minerals?
They don't need to understand how each item or hero works, noone with zero experience will understand things like that about any game. You won't know the moves of a figthing game either, even if they are lot fewer than the items on a MOBA. An FPS is probally the only genre I can think off where someone clueless about the game can ussually see what the weapons do very easily. As long it's not a weird futuristic game.
The problem with MOBAs is that there is too much action going on in diferent places, it's hard to show the right lane in the beggining if you haven't seen the game before. It's also too long, most of the time, with small peaks with a lot of action surrounded by a lot of passivity. I can't point out what's the exact problem, but it definatelly is not one of the most viewer friendly genres.
I do think, though, that games to be sucessfull don't need to attract people to watch if they don't play them. They should attract people to play it, and then watch it. If the game looks fun enough for a viewer to try it, even if he is not actually understanding much, and it's free on top of it, that's probally the best way for it to grow. I'm not sure we will ever reach a point where a significant margin of viewers have never played the game at all.
The level of success of BW in Korea proves that you don't need to play the game in order to understand it(to an enjoyable extent). It's easy to know what unit does what, and when workers die or an entire army dies it's easy to know the implications.
The game is pretty bad to watch in tournaments. Low levels of action early usually, very poor observer interface, and massive failures to accommodate tournaments with pause functions. SC2 has an appeal to even non RTS players, but LoL is pretty bad to watch unless you already very invested in the teams/game. I'm not sure if LoL being popular will help ESPORTS in any way. It isn't a title that I see having a long life in the arena.
On July 27 2011 04:58 shawster wrote: There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
As much as I like LoL, this is absolutely not true. DotA has absolutely better hero designs, and without question the higher power level. If you want to talk about the BW design of "everything is imba", DotA adheres to this way better than LoL.
On July 27 2011 05:06 dacthehork wrote: not sure how this is good for ESPORTS
The game is pretty bad to watch in tournaments. Low levels of action early usually, very poor observer interface, and massive failures to accommodate tournaments with pause functions. SC2 has an appeal to even non RTS players, but LoL is pretty bad to watch unless you already very invested in the teams/game. I'm not sure if LoL being popular will help ESPORTS in any way. It isn't a title that I see having a long life in the arena.
It gets more people interested in eSports, so even if the game is bad to watch the new fans might start watching other games like SC2.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
Honestly, I think Starcraft is harder to understand. New players don't even understand the benefits of expanding and constant worker production, and they actually play the game. Unless the game in a early rush, someone with not experience whatsoever playing an RTS will probally not understand it at all. Have you seen those videos were they are trying to teach someone and they don't even know how to mine minerals?
They don't need to understand how each item or hero works, noone with zero experience will understand things like that about any game. You won't know the moves of a figthing game either, even if they are lot fewer than the items on a MOBA. An FPS is probally the only genre I can think off where someone clueless about the game can ussually see what the weapons do very easily. As long it's not a weird futuristic game.
The problem with MOBAs is that there is too much action going on in diferent places, it's hard to show the right lane in the beggining if you haven't seen the game before. It's also too long, most of the time, with small peaks with a lot of action surrounded by a lot of passivity. I can't point out what's the exact problem, but it definatelly is not one of the most viewer friendly genres.
I do think, though, that games to be sucessfull don't need to attract people to watch if they don't play them. They should attract people to play it, and then watch it. If the game looks fun enough for a viewer to try it, even if he is not actually understanding much, and it's free on top of it, that's probally the best way for it to grow. I'm not sure we will ever reach a point where a significant margin of viewers have never played the game at all.
Apart from playing the campaign casually (thus having a general idea of what units do, but not all of them), I got into starcraft by watching tastless & superdanielman cast on gomtv two years ago. I watched nearly all of the VOD's in three months. The game was pretty easy to understand (thanks to the casters who explained pretty much everything crystal-clear), but I had also acquired an understanding of each matchup on a pretty advanced level.
Starcraft (and SC2) is easy to understand if the casters are good. Spells get cast and stuff dies. Doesn't take a genious to see that said spell is rather deadly. It also doesn't take a genious to realize that taking a second base early means that you'll have an economic advantage over your opponent early on if he doesn't do it as well but that your opponent will have more units to throw at you because you just spent a lot of resources on building that CC, Nexus or Hatch. The basic principles in Starcraft are rather easy to understand, and discern on screen. LoL or DOTA (or even WC3) less so. It's a clusterfuck of things happening at once without having clear indicators about what is happening why. SC2 is built from the ground up as a spectator e-sport. LoL is not.
@Shawster: most of the things in your post are arguments why it sucks as e-sport. The main thing is that it's way too forgiving. The more forgiving a game is, the less good the player must be to actually make a comeback, or to just stay in the game. Unforgiving games require a whole different level of perseverance.
On July 27 2011 04:58 shawster wrote: There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
As much as I like LoL, this is absolutely not true. DotA has absolutely better hero designs, and without question the higher power level. If you want to talk about the BW design of "everything is imba", DotA adheres to this way better than LoL.
troll and clinkz vs trist and twitch?
i think the new heroes are better, but this was like 2008 dota so maybe it wasn't the best comparison. stuff like medusa where they just took all the skills from wc3 heroes. the new heroes like after spectre have all been good i guess
i guess original lol vs dota lol wins
added dota vs added lol dota wins slightly with some good ones like storm spirit
500% growth in a year? that's incredible, I played LoL in beta, but as a Dota player i couldn't really get into it, a lot of my friends transferred over to HoN too.
Riot is doing it right, it's a shame that Blizzard is being run by Activision now, or atleast they aren't thinking about the changing their business model.
Didn't valve say that they wouldn't be making you pay upfront for games anymore? they know what's up.
LoL is bigger than SC2 right now, I don't know if it can be played competitively on the same level as SC2 or DOTA, but when you have a fanbase THAT big, anything can happen
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
Honestly, I think Starcraft is harder to understand. New players don't even understand the benefits of expanding and constant worker production, and they actually play the game. Unless the game in a early rush, someone with not experience whatsoever playing an RTS will probally not understand it at all. Have you seen those videos were they are trying to teach someone and they don't even know how to mine minerals?
They don't need to understand how each item or hero works, noone with zero experience will understand things like that about any game. You won't know the moves of a figthing game either, even if they are lot fewer than the items on a MOBA. An FPS is probally the only genre I can think off where someone clueless about the game can ussually see what the weapons do very easily. As long it's not a weird futuristic game.
The problem with MOBAs is that there is too much action going on in diferent places, it's hard to show the right lane in the beggining if you haven't seen the game before. It's also too long, most of the time, with small peaks with a lot of action surrounded by a lot of passivity. I can't point out what's the exact problem, but it definatelly is not one of the most viewer friendly genres.
I do think, though, that games to be sucessfull don't need to attract people to watch if they don't play them. They should attract people to play it, and then watch it. If the game looks fun enough for a viewer to try it, even if he is not actually understanding much, and it's free on top of it, that's probally the best way for it to grow. I'm not sure we will ever reach a point where a significant margin of viewers have never played the game at all.
The level of success of BW in Korea proves that you don't need to play the game in order to understand it. It's easy to know what unit does what, and when workers die or an entire army dies it's easy to know the implications.
That's waaaaayyyy diferent than a model any game on the west can hope to follow. How many people do you know that watch games constantly but are not gamers at all? It does not matter if it is SC or not, that will never happen in the west. People won't stop stop watching football to watch FIFA, Street Fighter or Starcraft. It worked in Korean because there wasn't "football" over there, there werent real dominant sports that people watched, but stopped doing so to watch BW, it filled a gap that does not exist in the rest of the world, where people already have way too much stuff to watch.
It's not that easy to know what each unit does. Show a dark swarm and ask someone to explain it. It's also easy to see that if a hero kills another hero, if a hero is farming a lot of gold, etc, he has an advantage. You can't just simplify things that much. How would you know how hard it is to blanket stom in BW without any contact with the game? In SC2 it is much easier, how would you know how it works? You could put a hero with a insane killing spree and a lot of jukes in a very hard situation in that video, the same audio, and showed to someone that has no idea what is going on in both games, they would probally understand the hero killing everything easier than some ligthing bolts in a screen and a slow push. Hell, I'm not sure they would even understand the dragoons were the same faction as the storms.
ESPORTS need to first attract gamers, there are much more people playing games than watching them. Even inside gaming communities some people think watching other people play kinda silly, it maybe be retarded to have written that article, but you can be sure that there are more people that have the same view as the woman from Kotaku.
LoL is doing a great job in that regard, showing them the game, making it easy for them to understand it, and maybe getting them into actual viewing games. That model look much more promissing than anything else I've seen, and the speed LoL has grown only supports that theory.
Apart from playing the campaign casually (thus having a general idea of what units do, but not all of them), I got into starcraft by watching tastless & superdanielman cast on gomtv two years ago. I watched nearly all of the VOD's in three months. The game was pretty easy to understand (thanks to the casters who explained pretty much everything crystal-clear), but I had also acquired an understanding of each matchup on a pretty advanced level.
Key point, you had a previous experience with the units and the game. You probally also had a previous RTS experience in another game, a lot of people have played something like Age of Empires. How many MOBAs existed before Dota?
I was talking about someone with not RTS experience at all, and how RTS concepts are not as simple to grasp, and the game not that attractive to watch, if you have no experience at all. You don't even know that there are minerals and gas to harvest.
Also, you are probally not the norm, anyone that watched BW in the west can ussually be called more hardcore than most casual gamers, just by the sheer dificultty to even watch the games.
The IP/RP system and the weekly rotating champions work so well. As people have mentioned, it lets you really learn certain champions, and get a sense of achievement as you go.
Even more importantly, it lets you learn about facing champions. At low levels, you will spend a week only playing against the same 10 champions, with maybe a few very cheap ones thrown in, all of which you can try yourself. This makes these games about 100 times more fun, and is really attractive to new players. If a new player was plunged into the entire pool of champions it would be horrible for them.
Also congratulations Riot - now I get some idea why your servers have been so godawful over the summer.
On July 27 2011 03:41 LoLAdriankat wrote: I play the shit out of League of Legends and I think it's a fun game (with friends), but I think Riot does a lot of things that make them the laughing stock of the esports community. When they finally add replay viewing and spectator mode, the growth of the game and it's competitive scene will increase. A bunch of new casters will arise and we (hopefully) don't have to deal with the terrible casters we currently have.
It'll take a lot more than just replay viewing and better casters to make LoL and other MOBA games more appealing to the pure spectator.
To enjoy the game you need to understand what's going on. The sheer amount of items and champions makes for a very difficult viewing experience if you don't know what the items and champions are capable of, and there's only so much a caster can do.
All of this can be overcome, but it'll take time and commitment from Riot.
Honestly, I think Starcraft is harder to understand. New players don't even understand the benefits of expanding and constant worker production, and they actually play the game. Unless the game in a early rush, someone with not experience whatsoever playing an RTS will probally not understand it at all. Have you seen those videos were they are trying to teach someone and they don't even know how to mine minerals?
They don't need to understand how each item or hero works, noone with zero experience will understand things like that about any game. You won't know the moves of a figthing game either, even if they are lot fewer than the items on a MOBA. An FPS is probally the only genre I can think off where someone clueless about the game can ussually see what the weapons do very easily. As long it's not a weird futuristic game.
The problem with MOBAs is that there is too much action going on in diferent places, it's hard to show the right lane in the beggining if you haven't seen the game before. It's also too long, most of the time, with small peaks with a lot of action surrounded by a lot of passivity. I can't point out what's the exact problem, but it definatelly is not one of the most viewer friendly genres.
I do think, though, that games to be sucessfull don't need to attract people to watch if they don't play them. They should attract people to play it, and then watch it. If the game looks fun enough for a viewer to try it, even if he is not actually understanding much, and it's free on top of it, that's probally the best way for it to grow. I'm not sure we will ever reach a point where a significant margin of viewers have never played the game at all.
The level of success of BW in Korea proves that you don't need to play the game in order to understand it. It's easy to know what unit does what, and when workers die or an entire army dies it's easy to know the implications.
That's waaaaayyyy diferent than a model any game on the west can hope to follow. How many people do you know that watch games constantly but are not gamers at all? It does not matter if it is SC or not, that will never happen in the west. People won't stop stop watching football to watch FIFA, Street Fighter or Starcraft. It worked in Korean because there wasn't "football" over there, there werent real dominant sports that people watched, but stopped doing so to watch BW, it filled a gap that does not exist in the rest of the world, where people already have way too much stuff to watch.
It's not that easy to know what each unit does. Show a dark swarm and ask someone to explain it. It's also easy to see that if a hero kills another hero, if a hero is farming a lot of gold, etc, he has an advantage. You can't just simplify things that much. How would you know how hard it is to blanket stom in BW without any contact with the game? In SC2 it is much easier, how would you know how it works? You could put a hero with a insane killing spree and a lot of jukes in a very hard situation in that video, the same audio, and showed to someone that has no idea what is going on in both games, they would probally understand the hero killing everything easier than some ligthing bolts in a screen and a slow push. Hell, I'm not sure they would even understand the dragoons were the same faction as the storms.
ESPORTS need to first attract gamers, there are much more people playing games than watching them. Even inside gaming communities some people think watching other people play kinda silly, it maybe be retarded to have written that article, but you can be sure that there are more people that have the same view as the woman from Kotaku.
LoL is doing a great job in that regard, showing them the game, making it easy for them to understand it, and maybe getting them into actual viewing games. That model look much more promissing than anything else I've seen, and the speed LoL has grown only supports that theory.
You're not getting it. It's easy to know what unit does what because there's not much to learn. Once you see Psi Storm in action it's easy to know what it does, same as you would with Ashe Arrow. That's not the issue. The issue is that once you've learned what Ashe Arrow does, you still have hundreds upon hundreds of different abilities and almost as many items to learn. Unlike in BW when you only had to learn several more abilities.
I really like how accepting TL's mods are of LoL. Gives us our own forum, defends us from unnecessary flaming and believes it's good for the growth of ESPORTS.
This might be slightly off topic, but am I the only one who finds the term "ESPOOARRTTSSS" downright retarded? And why is it always capitalized? Where did this come from?
Statements like "YOU"RE HURTING ESPORTS" just confuse me and usually elicit a giggle or two.
On July 27 2011 04:58 shawster wrote: There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
As much as I like LoL, this is absolutely not true. DotA has absolutely better hero designs, and without question the higher power level. If you want to talk about the BW design of "everything is imba", DotA adheres to this way better than LoL.
I don't think hes necessarily trying to say its a good thing. I agree with him LoL heroes are incredibly well rounded, where as DotA heroes are not, yet DotA is more fun to play imo. Supports are actual support, carries are hard carries etc. I'm not sure which is the more overpowered concept, I think it just depends.
I hit a pretty big spat on LoL and it was a lot of fun. imho the game design is a little flawed with game length and such but maybe that's because i wasn't playing on the super competitive level. I don't mind going back every now and then for a game but its hard to really get into it again. One thing I do want to say is that starcraft is a much more beautiful game (game design-wise but aesthetically as well :D)
On July 27 2011 04:58 shawster wrote: here's my take on lol, and i say this everytime i go into a lol related thread. former lol player, still love the game to death.
Also this was my opinion from like 2-3 months ago, not sure if it's still valid.
A little introduction about my past dota background
In 2009 LoL was seen as a dying game. HoN was going to crush it. It was seen as a cartoonish mockery of the real game. No denies and casual were the main complaints, and as a former DotA player during 2009 I was mocking it too. Free to play and microtransfers? Seemed like shit to me. Anyways during early 2010 I was at this internet cafe and LoL was on it. HoN was down, there was no DotA. Me and my friend tried LoL for shits and giggles, but it was kind of fun. Every since then I played it almost religiously.
The reason why it's got a huge playerbase is the same reason why I started playing, it's addictive as fuck. Here are some reasons why it's got a huge playerbase. I just want to emphasize how important playerbase is. If you have a ton of players, esports comes easier the game is more successful etc. The games success is based on the players, and the players dictate the competitive scene.
1. The learning curve was SO MUCH easier then DotA. You went to pub games learned the hard way and get cursed at for 30 straight games in DotA, you didn't learn efficiently. LoL changed that by introducing matchmaking which started at such a low level. You played people the same level as you. This was such a huge improvement, in DotA you only got into the game by friends introducing you and teaching you.
2. Design philosophy. You can read a lot of posts by Zileas, they emphasize the forgiving and fighting features of the game. In DotA you lose in lane you're down 400 gold, in LoL you die you don't lose gold. In DotA you get less gold for kills, LoL you get way more. The design philosophy of LoL is that dying in dota creates negative fun, killing creates some fun. I emphasize some fun because you don't feel as good making people lose gold, you feel better when you get gold and see your own progression. So in low levels of LoL where people constantly kill eachother and die, they can only see progression.
A BIG BIG one is mana management. It's tedious thinking to yourself "i only have 2 fissures left". In LoL they nerfed all the mana costs and you can have mana regen runes giving yourself a TON of mana early. This allows players to be less meticulous.
There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
3. It's free. You got an addictive game design, you got an early learning curve and you've got a pretty good designed game. And it's the DotA genre(some call it MOBA) which has proven to be a good genre. Obviously it's going to be somewhat successful.
Some people criticize the game for having microtransfers, well to be honest it doesn't make that big of a difference. You don't need to buy every hero in the game. You can also earn the heroes through playing. It's actually so much less of an impact on the game then you would think. It's like 95% skill, 5 % runes/heroes and at the same time you can spend a ton of money on the game and feel satisfied. I really want to emphasize how little buying riot points actually improves your game play, but at the same time it creates more fun. It's a win win situation
Now that's how LoL got popular. The problem with LoL is that it was never meant to be played at a high level. Games like fighting games/sc2/sc1 were balanced at the high level, LoL can't do that. Somewhere like 20% of fighting game players are hardcore, maybe 5% of sc2 players and 40% of broodwar players. These are made up numbers, but it's somewhat accurate. In LoL like 50% of players are hella bad. The hella bad players in LoL can't improve either. Improving in DotA genres is a different topic lol.
Anyways LoL is a great game for playing. For esports there is a big problem. It's incredibly hard to cater to both populations, the hardcore and the bad. In WoW they had to completely divide PVP and PVE in order to balance it. There were so many problems in WoW for PVP, for example ret pallies were tearing shit up in wotlk. They were the ultimate dueling character, battleground character, BUT they were never super overpowered in arena. Blizzard nerfed ret to the ground. Obviously ret pallies were mad. For example in high level play twitch was way less intimidating then in mid level player where wards and oracles aren't bought. They still nerfed the bejeesus outa him. I guess what I'm trying to say is balancing is hard, it's hard when you balance to one group of people, it's hard to balance 3 races, and it's hella fucking hard to balance 70 heroes.
Also there is another problem with LoL esports, how boring it is. I want to end off my rant/essay whatever because it's getting fucking long, so i'll make it short.
heroes getting ton of gold from kills -> the game becomes a snowball effect at high levels.
getting fed is a bad problem at high levels because a good player will keep the advantage
objectives that are supposed to create battle and excitement (dragon/baron) cause the game to snowball in victors favour.
wards are too strong, counterwarding is harder
losing map control leads to massive repercussions
once you're down that hard you rely on opponent to fuck up
all this is a non factor at low levels because they can't manipulate the game well enough.
oh and i gotta put in how riot didn't have replays and observers for about 2 years up here somewhere, disregard for esports until recently
Thanks for reading, in conclusion I love the game to death but it's got some problems when it comes to esports.
This is probably the best post in this thread.I feel exactly the same way about LoL,but to add something to it the same problems LoL has are pretty much the same problems with Sc2 when it comes to Esports. But yea,congratulations to Riot for this success i just hope that it will be sustained.
On July 27 2011 04:58 shawster wrote: There are many more examples, but I'm going to focus on hero design. The heroes are designed to be so much more well rounded and more full then their DotA counterparts. Look at a hero like Tristana. There is no way in hell you're getting that into DotA. A blink, a damaging nuke, attack speed increase, massive range. This kind of follows the broodwar design of make everything fucking imbalanced and don't look back (swarm/storm)
As much as I like LoL, this is absolutely not true. DotA has absolutely better hero designs, and without question the higher power level. If you want to talk about the BW design of "everything is imba", DotA adheres to this way better than LoL.
I don't think hes necessarily trying to say its a good thing. I agree with him LoL heroes are incredibly well rounded, where as DotA heroes are not, yet DotA is more fun to play imo. Supports are actual support, carries are hard carries etc. I'm not sure which is the more overpowered concept, I think it just depends.
i try to be somewhat neutral. i think carries in LoL were supposed to be mid-early game dpsers with small roles, and blossom late game.whereas the dota counterpart is about being just hardass carry late game. thats why a lot of carries have nukes/slows that traditional dota hard carries don't have.
I opened an account and played for 1 day and never opened the client again, i wonder how many of those accounts are inactive. The game just doesn't feel fluid and the genre is probably not for me anyways... after playing a lot of fast paced games like quake and sc2 the game just feels boring to me
For a free game lol is awesome so the numbers dont suprise me. I dont like it as much as dota/hon but ur comparing a free game vs paid ones so its not exactly a fair comparison. Riot did quite well with what they had. That being said I find all dota like games boring as hell to spectate but to each his own. Hopefully riot's success leads to the creation of more quality f2p games rather than all the farmville/ranchville shit going around.
Imo the biggestthing lol has going for it besides f2p is learning curve....i went like 30-2 in my first few games and still havent had a negative k/d game compared to getting crushed when u first start playing dota/hon.... Its a lot more casual friendly and easy to pick up compared to the rest of the genre.
The business model has likely been the biggest selling point for League of Legends, I just hope more companies don't follow it, particularly for games that I like because I'm one who is far more interested in simply dropping around 30 to 60 dollars for everything over getting nickel and dimed for content in a game.
As far as champion design goes, champions actually feel individually weak which sort of makes it seem like there's more of an emphasis on team-play, particularly at high levels, but in all honesty, the team aspect is no more defined that in a game such as DotA or HoN. I feel like the method of design is very standard with each champion being defined by their roles which leads to redundancy within a role since every champion sort of does the same thing within it's role with a different flavor. I think the niche style is better for competitive play, but the general style could be better for spectatorship since you only need to understand 6-7 roles instead of every niche hero.
That doesn't really matter though because watching competitive League of Legends right now is comparable to watching paint dry, particularly for the first 10 minutes. There's little flare and not many events where someone straight up out-skills someone else, there are few direct comparable interactions in lane, there isn't really a whole lot of action and the kill-count is generally low... and Flash... oh... fucking... Flash. I remember when they said they were going to fix/remove it... That was almost 8 months ago.
Then we see Dreamhack and every single player is running Flash, players are dropping and games are continuing with teams a man down(no pause function), commentators gloss over it and no re-game, recently released champions are allowed and seen in a massive amount of games(Hi, I'm Vayne), players talk essentially about being out-picked and games being over at champion selection.
I dunno, it's a very successful game, but I saw WCG and wasn't excited as a spectator, I saw Ionia vs Noxus and the game was one-sided as hell with atrocious commentary, I saw Dreamhack and it was a snore-fest. I think competitive League of Legends has nothing going for it right now to be honest.
But you can't deny they've made vast improvements in terms of developing as an competitive game. Compare this year's Dreamhack to last year's WCG and you'll see the rise of new teams, better spectator system, observer mode. While it certainly wasn't perfect, there's still room to grow, room to develop. LoL could use a Pause function in case someone drops, but overall the game has the fanbase, and it has what it takes to be really really big.
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
Pretty much all the cons Scary listed happen in every game. I've been playing LoL for maybe just less than a year now, and I cannot relate to what he is saying about bugs. There haven't been any bugs worthy of speaking of. The biggest criticism IMO would be the d/c issue in tournaments and the server instability around patch time, but despite these bugs LoL is still quite enjoyable for a very large number of people.
Compared to the dota/hon community, I'd have to say LoL is definitely more friendly. The general experience in game is a lot more accepting than the other games. Ranked games can get quite heated, but still it's not worse than HoN or Dota. Also, I know a lot of real life and internet friends who play normal games almost exclusively. With LoL constantly adding in new content and having pretty good interaction with the community in terms of balancing and such, there's lots of playability to be had since they always have the gamer in mind.
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
I have to assume you're not playing ranked games then...
I honestly feel that anyone who says one community is better to play with than the other is mistaken, when it comes to ranked play, both games have equally obnoxious communities.
On July 27 2011 06:18 Mordiford wrote: I honestly feel that anyone who says one community is better to play with than the other is mistaken, when it comes to ranked play, both games have equally obnoxious communities.
Yes.
People need to realize this, the community of LoL is garbage, but it's no worse(or better) than any other MOBA's(I hate that word, but it fit best here). I play LoL because I enjoy it more than HoN or DoTA, the ladder system is relatively well done.
There do need to be more incentives for early game combat, the sit back and farm style can result in boring early games. The team play into the midgame is breathtaking though, the way the top teams work together to really control the map is awesome to watch.
It's pretty good for a free game but I wonder what's going to happen when DOTA 2 comes out. League of Legends has a pretty strong string of competition in their AoS genre with HoN, DOTA, and Bloodline Champions but I feel like its viewership comes from the game's free-to-play nature.
If DOTA2 were to come out and it was free-to-play, I'd be worried if I were League of Legends because Valve does not beat around the bush when it comes to making games. Their last successful game had a monopoly on the PC-FPS genre for many years (counter-strike 1.6, source) AND those were pay-to-play.
I stopped playing league of legends because I thought it was too noob friendly and made the game very boring to play although, pretty exciting to watch. There was no penalty for dying, no denying creeps, and etc. Lot of people who I still sit in ventrilo with play League of Legends and enter small online tournaments and such. They also buy those riot points and give League of Legends good business so I feel like their business strategy has worked pretty well to the average gamer.
The successes of the game cannot be overlooked but I think that it was inevitable when DOTA took a plunge and a free-to-play DOTA that was easy to play came out.
Also, League of Legends started out as a really friendly community as many of you have said but I feel like it has taken a real plunge for the worst as many trolls are doing that annoying crap and gloating about it on youtube and people are smurfing and talking trash to newer players. With any game that gains overnight celebrity status, the cons also come rolling in.
On July 27 2011 06:27 seoul_kiM wrote: It's pretty good for a free game but I wonder what's going to happen when DOTA 2 comes out. League of Legends has a pretty strong string of competition in their AoS genre with HoN, DOTA, and Bloodline Champions but I feel like its viewership comes from the game's free-to-play nature.
If DOTA2 were to come out and it was free-to-play, I'd be worried if I were League of Legends because Valve does not beat around the bush when it comes to making games. Their last successful game had a monopoly on the PC-FPS genre for many years (counter-strike 1.6, source) AND those were pay-to-play.
I stopped playing league of legends because I thought it was too noob friendly and made the game very boring to play although, pretty exciting to watch. There was no penalty for dying, no denying creeps, and etc. Lot of people who I still sit in ventrilo with play League of Legends and enter small online tournaments and such. They also buy those riot points and give League of Legends good business so I feel like their business strategy has worked pretty well to the average gamer.
The successes of the game cannot be overlooked but I think that it was inevitable when DOTA took a plunge and a free-to-play DOTA that was easy to play came out.
Also, League of Legends started out as a really friendly community as many of you have said but I feel like it has taken a real plunge for the worst as many trolls are doing that annoying crap and gloating about it on youtube and people are smurfing and talking trash to newer players. With any game that gains overnight celebrity status, the cons also come rolling in.
i'm not worried.
i guarantee you at least 50% of the lol population are lol players, and strictly lol players. elo and past dota experience correlate positively probably, but they can make so much money off the bottom % of people since so many people are below 1300
some of the lol memes annoy me, and it's so trolley and memey there. lol community feels alot like reddit/tumblr
One of the biggest features of League is that if you are terrible, you will play with terrible people. Hon does not have that. Everyone is a dick (especially me), and the smallest mistake you make at any level of play will earn you 10+ minutes of scolding from some asshole who has 5+ years of dota experience. LoL has no sign on the door saying GTFO noobs. If Hon didn't have this and was free, you'd probably see these numbers split more evenly between the game.
On July 27 2011 02:58 BloodNinja wrote: Phreak is probably the worst offender. He loves to zoom into a random character or model only to miss a big gank or team fight.
Yuuuup...
I can't stand games being casted by Phreak or Grackis. Painful to watch t.t
Someone need to emphasis how bad Phreak and Grackis is some more..
Atleast Phreak can speed commentate, grackis is just painful to hear at... They should just make TreeEskimo and Zenon commentate everything (yes, I am a secret zenon fanboy)
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
I have to assume you're not playing ranked games then...
I honestly feel that anyone who says one community is better to play with than the other is mistaken, when it comes to ranked play, both games have equally obnoxious communities.
League of Legends is softcore BM compared to what shit you have to go through when playing dota...
On July 27 2011 05:28 Haemonculus wrote: This might be slightly off topic, but am I the only one who finds the term "ESPOOARRTTSSS" downright retarded? And why is it always capitalized? Where did this come from?
Statements like "YOU"RE HURTING ESPORTS" just confuse me and usually elicit a giggle or two.
ESPORTS is a tongue in cheek joke. e-Sports is what we use when we're serious.
On July 27 2011 02:58 BloodNinja wrote: Phreak is probably the worst offender. He loves to zoom into a random character or model only to miss a big gank or team fight.
Yuuuup...
I can't stand games being casted by Phreak or Grackis. Painful to watch t.t
Someone need to emphasis how bad Phreak and Grackis is some more..
Atleast Phreak can speed commentate, grackis is just painful to hear at... They should just make TreeEskimo and Zenon commentate everything (yes, I am a secret zenon fanboy)
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
I have to assume you're not playing ranked games then...
I honestly feel that anyone who says one community is better to play with than the other is mistaken, when it comes to ranked play, both games have equally obnoxious communities.
League of Legends is softcore BM compared to what shit you have to go through when playing dota...
I disagree, I've dealt with idiots who were just as obnoxious in League of Legend's ranked games as I remember the morons from DotA being, and no less annoying than those of Heroes of Newerth.
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
Dota was so balanced the first 5 years...
Shit lol is about as balanced now as hon/dota is and that is an 8 year old game.
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
Dota was so balanced the first 5 years...
Shit lol is about as balanced now as hon/dota is and that is an 8 year old game.
I disagree. I think there are some fundamental issues with the balance in League of Legends, I also think Riot's approach to balancing is somewhat flawed.
Also, when I personally refer to DotA, I'm mainly referring to IceFrog era DotA which was essentially completely re-geared for competitive play as opposed to previous versions which were ridiculously broken and imbalanced, it was a gradual process but it got there and ended up in a good enough place pretty quickly.
Having experienced LoL for about a year now, as well as having played Dota for a decent amount of time as well, I definitely think that it brings much to the MOBA genre while still keeping relatively original in its design.
IMHO I would say a decent analogy for Starcraft players would be something like... DOTA:League of legends BW: SC2
While you move on and play the newer version, nothing can compare to the magic of the original
yes it is a fun game but the community is quite bad but it is like many others. there are flamers, trolls and etc. also there are so many bugs and imbalances in the game, i still do play but when dota 2 comes out i hope to transition into that and see if i like it
The most epic competition isn't going to be on a tournament stage. It's going to come from LoL vs. DOTA 2.
I am soooo excited and interested in what Valve is going to try to pull to make DOTA 2 a success. They better have a jaw-dropping game with the most ridiculously amazing marketing campaign ever to unseat LoL from the looks of things. I feel like Valve is going to have a real war on its hands. Just how do you beat a FREE game that already has a huge head start on you in the scene?
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Most don't. LoL is free. That is where these numbers come from. Most people from the MOBA genre disagree with its popularity because it is the easiest game with a system to buy an edge over others.
Wow Riot seems to actually have a big fish there in terms of e-Sports.
From all i have heard, they are actually improving their game constantly to make it more e-Sports focused. If that is taking a way to long time is a completely diffrent question.
Fun to see that the gaming scene on PC is actually that large.
It's good that their numbers are high but I'm still in favour of a death penalty (kinda like DotA) because that adds an entire new level of shutting down carries, etc. Also means that you can't go like 1-10 and still have 15/16k gold lying around. t_t
On July 27 2011 06:01 Mordiford wrote: The business model has likely been the biggest selling point for League of Legends, I just hope more companies don't follow it, particularly for games that I like because I'm one who is far more interested in simply dropping around 30 to 60 dollars for everything over getting nickel and dimed for content in a game.
As far as champion design goes, champions actually feel individually weak which sort of makes it seem like there's more of an emphasis on team-play, particularly at high levels, but in all honesty, the team aspect is no more defined that in a game such as DotA or HoN. I feel like the method of design is very standard with each champion being defined by their roles which leads to redundancy within a role since every champion sort of does the same thing within it's role with a different flavor. I think the niche style is better for competitive play, but the general style could be better for spectatorship since you only need to understand 6-7 roles instead of every niche hero.
That doesn't really matter though because watching competitive League of Legends right now is comparable to watching paint dry, particularly for the first 10 minutes. There's little flare and not many events where someone straight up out-skills someone else, there are few direct comparable interactions in lane, there isn't really a whole lot of action and the kill-count is generally low... and Flash... oh... fucking... Flash. I remember when they said they were going to fix/remove it... That was almost 8 months ago.
Then we see Dreamhack and every single player is running Flash, players are dropping and games are continuing with teams a man down(no pause function), commentators gloss over it and no re-game, recently released champions are allowed and seen in a massive amount of games(Hi, I'm Vayne), players talk essentially about being out-picked and games being over at champion selection.
I dunno, it's a very successful game, but I saw WCG and wasn't excited as a spectator, I saw Ionia vs Noxus and the game was one-sided as hell with atrocious commentary, I saw Dreamhack and it was a snore-fest. I think competitive League of Legends has nothing going for it right now to be honest.
Still a fun game though.
Totally agree with that part about the business model. Although at least it's fully playable F2P.
Well it makes complete sense considering that LoL, out of all the DotA type games has the lowest skill cap and is the easiest to get into, and with the simplistic gameplay inherent in DotA-type games (aka only having 1 unit to micro) and shallow learning cure, it really appeals to casual-level games, who want to get into RTS games but are to intimidated by most of them. Then there is the fact that although being free to play, you suffer no REAL detriments by not buying anything through micro transactions, and also people are alot less abusive then playerbase in HoN/DotA towards new players/casuals.
Put all these things together and of course you have the recipe for one of the most popular PC games on the planet. I don't see how anyone could have not expect that this game was this popular.
This is a fun game. You can easily convince your friends to play with you "hey its free" lots of different heroes to try out. Unlike sc2 its hard to convince your buddies to go buy a 60 dollar game and then suck for a month.
I hope it continues to grow and does well. My friends and I (my friends are not not gamers by any means) get to interact in a stress free environment, sharing in humiliation and triumph. No better way to hangout with friends virtually!
On July 27 2011 01:31 ScArY_ wrote: Why dont you also name some of the Cons. That a lot of bad players play this game, -obviously-, people who don't even speak english, people who flame, who rage, who swear etc etc etc.. Many bugs. The game is imbalanced. Everytime a major bug appears, they claim that they have fixed it but another one appears. I used to play LOL, i stopped because i was playing ranked games with people who were unmannered and unskilled. You are allowed to be a newbie but please, dont play ranked, go normal.
well thats funny because I quit playing HoN and DotA because people were so verbally abusive it just made me feel frustrated. i mean honestly man every single freaking game somebody would insult my mother in the most horrible ways. This has yet to happen to me in LoL.
Yea I kinda felt the same way. First time hearing someone on mic bitching me out made me want to break his legs. But really all it turned into was more incentive to get better. I started out dropping to like 1200 MMR, ive since moved up to about 1600 MMR. I think ive played around 90 to 100 games total and at 1600 MMR, surprisingly the people there are slightly less annoying.
Meh, I think league of legends have been skewing the data quite a bit. 500,000+ players at peak "in-game." That could mean they are idling with the main menu of LoL after the log in. I know a large majority of players that do that in the background. It's not like it takes up that much CPU/bandwidth. During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features. Valve, i don't think they skew their data to that extent. TF2 is a poor comparison since they are entirely different games and appeal to different gamers.
I still consider LoL to be very casual based, and very very poorly balanced. When the same 3-4 heros are banned in ranked every single game, that is a big indicator that something is wrong. Pre v100122 patch, Udyr, Yorick, TF, GP, were banned in like 90% of my games. And whenever they weren't, they dominated their lanes and the course of the game. The patches before that, it was Vlad, Lanewick, Vayne. Frankly there are always ridiculous OP heros in LoL, and there always will be. Which I think is due to the very simplied and basic mechanics. There are very little item customization, not enough emphasis on CC, and pretty much a trend of tanky dps and bursty dps. None of which requires a lot of skill to pull off.
Oh and i fucking hate the ip/rp system. It's already an extremely unbalanced state right from the start. I need to spend ip on runes just to get an even playing field with certain champions, (25 armor pen is game breaking if only 1 ad carry in the game has it), then these overpowered heroes are so damn expensive. RP for skins, totally acceptable, but encouraging me to spend real money on heroes to get an even playing field. That's where I draw the line.
Which is why i'll patiently wait for Dota 2 to come out.
Sad to say but I do see the similarities in BW>SC2 to dota>LoL, ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.
I played BW, the most amazing game I've ever played, then SC2 came out thought it was great, but it only made me miss BW more, but I can't push myself backwards to play the game more.
I layed dota, and it was a really fun competive game, and the learning aspect reminded me of BW, as their was a wealth of information you could tap into to help you. I got bored of it, and played LoL, and it seems new and fun to me. Now I have hundreds of games under my belt, and I still don't feel finished with it. I think dota is more challenging and rewarding though, the same way BW was.
That said, I can't watch SC2 or LoL, unless the game played is spectacular. I can watch any BW game, even the most standard ones I can enjoy with just korean babble, just because the more standard, the more beautiful. But I can't do that with dota. Perhaps its similar to why 2v2 never got big in BW, its too much to follow especially from 4 different talented minds. 1v1 BW is perfect in that regard. 5v5 even with single unit control, is just so difficult to follow astutely, and I only feel bad for casters who have a way with words, obvious talent, and vast knowledge as they stumble around what 10 different pros are doing.
I think casting needs to be done really different for MOBA. I'm looking forward to dota2, and even being a huge fan of what riot has done, it's valve we are dealing with. That's like everyone marvelling at an acting job by some local nobody, then a legend walking through the door and taking a crack at it.
It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote: During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features.
Not quite right, you had to actually click on the link to watch the stream, if you were just playing the game the views didn't count.
On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote: Meh, I think league of legends have been skewing the data quite a bit. 500,000+ players at peak "in-game." That could mean they are idling with the main menu of LoL after the log in. I know a large majority of players that do that in the background. It's not like it takes up that much CPU/bandwidth. During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features. Valve, i don't think they skew their data to that extent. TF2 is a poor comparison since they are entirely different games and appeal to different gamers.
I still consider LoL to be very casual based, and very very poorly balanced. When the same 3-4 heros are banned in ranked every single game, that is a big indicator that something is wrong. Pre v100122 patch, Udyr, Yorick, TF, GP, were banned in like 90% of my games. And whenever they weren't, they dominated their lanes and the course of the game. The patches before that, it was Vlad, Lanewick, Vayne. Frankly there are always ridiculous OP heros in LoL, and there always will be. Which I think is due to the very simplied and basic mechanics. There are very little item customization, not enough emphasis on CC, and pretty much a trend of tanky dps and bursty dps. None of which requires a lot of skill to pull off.
Oh and i fucking hate the ip/rp system. It's already an extremely unbalanced state right from the start. I need to spend ip on runes just to get an even playing field with certain champions, (25 armor pen is game breaking if only 1 ad carry in the game has it), then these overpowered heroes are so damn expensive. RP for skins, totally acceptable, but encouraging me to spend real money on heroes to get an even playing field. That's where I draw the line.
Which is why i'll patiently wait for Dota 2 to come out.
The LoL client issue during Dreamhack has been refuted many times, so that is false. Also, if they can get 500k players logged in, why didn't they get 500k viewers during Dreamhack (about 1 month ago)?
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I also think that LoL has differentiated itself enough from HoN/DotA that the release of DotA2 won't cripple Riot.The stylistic and design differences allows Riot to retain players who may be more casual and don't care too much about the high level play.
People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame. Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks). In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
That's like saying Warcraft 3 is closer to WoW than Starcraft.
Dota was the first MOBA, and the only relevant one before LoL, obviously they will be compared, even more so because they are virtually the only two really diferent versions avaible even now, HoN/Dota/Dota2 are almost the same game.
They are games of the same genre, have the same basic structure with the map, mechanics, like the leveling system, gold, recipes, neutrals, heroes, creeps, etc. even skills and items overlap a lot. WoW is a completelly diferent genre with completelly diferent mechanics, I really don't get how it would even be closer to LoL than to Dota to be honest.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
On July 27 2011 08:16 Microchaton wrote: People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame. Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks). In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
No deny, Near unlimited mana, easier to target spells, negligeble death penalty. U can write as many essays as u want but these simple reasons mean lol can never take as much skill as hon/dota. Same way sc2 can never take as much skill as bw due to design that make gameplay easier. Doesnt make it a worse game but LoL taking less skill = measurable fact.
On July 27 2011 08:16 Microchaton wrote: People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame. Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks). In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
I like to think that I played the game at a relatively high level(around 1700 when the highest was barely breaking 2000) and I have to say I disagree.
The same team oriented aspect exists in both games, League of Legends simply lacks the high individual skill differentiation and direct engagement that the other two games have, particularly in the laning phase. Rune control basically takes the place of buff mobs and Baron is replaced with Roshan, the lack of dragon would be something you could cite but the way HoN/DotA are designed end up fighting together and killing each other more than in LoL anyways so while these objectives create some action in LoL, it's necessary whereas the other two manage to get enough action without it.
I find the summoner spell system to be kind of a silly addition that I don't really like, you can talk about it's depth but at the end of the day, everyone at Dreamhack ran Flash and something specific to their role, it wasn't some crazy decision, it was pretty straight forward. It seems more like a crutch at this point.
Also, I disagree that the champions toolkits are more varied, since you didn't really go into detail on why I don't know if it's necessary for me to, but I'll just say that champions in LoL are more often designed around some basic roles with different flavors while DotA/HoN characters are more niche, I would consider the latter more varied.
I don't think wards are more important in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN and I don't think people use them more in pub games in LoL than DotA/HoN either to be honest.
As for LoL being more fun, I dunno... It's fun, I didn't have more fun with it though, I got burned out, I kept waiting for it to get more depth and to find that next level of interestingness but I never did. Also, once again, the community for League of Legends is just as bad in my opinion, ranked games yield the same variety of assholes that you would find in HoN/DotA in around the same proportion based on my experience. I think it's gross exaggeration to say one community is comprised almost exclusively of assholes while the other isn't, they're both equally bad in that regard.
So yeah, I disagree with almost everything you said.
Sorry Jibba... I don't think this thread can go without this happening anyways, as long as it's civil I don't know if there's an issue, it's success is relevant to the competition as is the future of the genre.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota.
People saying that LoL's skillcap is very low, compared to DotA and HoN especially, couldn't be more wrong. There are just things that arent apparent if you don't play the game at a decent level. The problem with LoL is that it's actual strength competitively is the various mindgames teams can have, especially mid/lategame. Those DON'T exist, or in a really limited fashion in DotA/HoN. (Baron/Roshan being the only objective beside racks). In LoL the control of the 4 buffs (2 blues 2 reds), of the drake and of Nashor (aka Baron, super tough mob, gives lots of gold and a strong buff, but doesnt give special items. are extremly important, some summoner spells add a lot to the decision-making (teleport, basically a TP scroll on very high cooldown, smite, that deals huge fixed damage on a creep (up to "boss-creeps) and play a huge part in jungle invasion, "steals" and general control of these important creeps.. The more varied toolkits of various champions also allow for much more variety in strategy possibilities, especially pick-wise.
"Forcing" drake/baron (aka the team gathering near it and forcing a teamfight or a loss of the important creep), split / ninjapushing can be a very important part of the game, map control via wards and oracles is possibly even more important than in DotA/HoN (And surprisingly people use them a LOT more in "pub games" in League of Legends than in DotA/HoN), especially as they can help with the jungle/creeps control.
I can't really be arsed writing an essay on that, most of the people convinced that LoL is just a "shitty DotA clone for casuals (which is what I used to think, I played DotA for years) won't try it seriously anyway. (No, 1 game is not "trying). But there are tons of more subtle things that you only discover by playing.
In addition, there is the "small" fact that I think LoL is insanely more fun than DotA/HoN, and the community, though overall "less hardcore" is wayyyyy less douchebaggy. Yes, there are flamers, trolls and arrogants c*nts. There are in every game. But DotA/HoN's current population is pretty much exclusively composed of those. Refusing to try it is really your call, but you're missing out.
(And again, I used to despise LoL as a retarded kid game, maybe that would make you rethink your position)
Are you not forgetting the buffs at river that swing the game for you, like your carry getting double dmg (dota) instead of the insanely OP lizard buff (lol). clever things you do with illusion buffs etc, bottle being epic. LoL late game is all about waiting for 1 person in a bush with your team for 5min [im just exagirating but it is REALLY stale]. Dota had a much clearer role defition of characters, LoL has mostly Tanky DPS irelia, jarvan, yorick, the list goes on and on and on, and the new character will be exactly the same.The Map in lol is pretty terrible as well, with the dota map allowing for far more dynamic play. Ofc the issues go on to a lack of denying and massive turtling for the first half.
The game isnt terrible dont get me wrong, and im glad they've hit so big with it, but im just playing it till dota 2 comes out and i (sadly) have very high hopes. I doubt they can do much about it but the ranking system is horrific, the area referred to as "elo hell" being 1200-1500, which hard to get out of, since no matter how good you are, its a team game with the team having to pull together instead of 1-2 individuals, and you cant even do anything if when you do your draft pick people pick 2-4 ad carrys and instant lock in. With regards to the community in the game, nothin really compares to tf or TL in that department so one would be applying quite a high standard, but generally dota/hon/lol/demi-god (ha 4th one doesnt count) attracts the wrong kind of crowd. Like i said im happy for their success but im fairly sure there are many just like me waiting for dota 2 to fix LoL's problems.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
I really have a lot of respect for RIOT since they have designed the game in a great manner and have developed an incredibly good business model. However, the game lost its appeal to me at some point since they are so many flamers. Also, the game felt very repetetive and considering that it is so shallow skill-wise, I just lost interest.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
That's like saying Warcraft 3 is closer to WoW than Starcraft.
Dota was the first MOBA, and the only relevant one before LoL, obviously they will be compared, even more so because they are virtually the only two really diferent versions avaible even now, HoN/Dota/Dota2 are almost the same game.
They are games of the same genre, have the same basic structure with the map, mechanics, like the leveling system, gold, recipes, neutrals, heroes, creeps, etc. even skills and items overlap a lot. WoW is a completelly diferent genre with completelly diferent mechanics, I really don't get how it would even be closer to LoL than to Dota to be honest.
I guess the main (and only) similarity between LoL and WoW is the constant grinding... If you don't want to spend money on LoL you have to play thousands of games to have enough IP for a decent variety of heroes and the neccessary runes for them. That's also what I disliked the most about the game. You need a full decent rune page in order to be on equal footing with your opponents, but since they are so expensive you can neither buy enough runes for all types of heroes nor a big variety of heroes through IP if you don't grind like crazy. For example, after I reached lvl 30 I owned only a dozen of (cheap) heroes and one (and a half) rune pages...
I can't believe LoL's success gets so many people's pants in a knot. It's a great new addition as an esport title as it is a comparatively accessible game, extremely fun to play (more so than DotA or HoN, despite the latter titles' greater depths) and it is a colourful, non-violent game, i.e. easy to market.
Given that more companies want a piece of the MOBA pie, it is not certain LoL's dominance in the market will continue. However, I just wanted to say that LoL is an extremely fun game to play, albeit less fun to watch, and is a complete winner in terms of design as a game for the masses.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
I think it's a decent comparison but not the best, Brood War was an incredibly mechanically demanding game which was also strategically complex, yada yada. Starcraft 2 took out a lot of the unnecessary mechanics but managed to keep most of the competitive difficulty intact, I don't know if the difficulty level is really comparable.
To draw another analogy, hopefully this works... Let's say BroodWar is like a version of basketball where you had to tap yourself on the head every first time you bounced the ball and on the ass every second time, it would be ridiculously difficult and have a higher skill cap and all that jazz and once people get used to it you'd say buttheadsketball is the more difficult game than basketball with it's standard simplification of removing the head and ass tapping.
To me, DotA to LoL is more like taking basketball(normal), removing dribbling and substantially lowering the net, a somewhat integral component change that may harm it's competitive potential.
On July 27 2011 01:22 Microchaton wrote: So, first off, this confirms what most of people assumed without solid proofs : League of legends is HUGE, even for a "free game", as it's not a simple farmville/freecell we're talking about but an actual video game with vast knowledge to be acquired and a steady-ish learning curve.
Wait what? How does the fact that LoL has a huge userbase have anything to do with it being an "actual videogame", not to mention with it having a steady learning curve? That statement makes no sense at all.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
DotA has more players than pretty much any other online game available today. I believe WoW has more, and maybe a couple more games (Maplestory?) but besides that it's actually one of the largest games in the world. People just don't notice it cause a) It's not distributed by a company so no official numbers and b) The majority of the players are in asia/china, so the westerners don't really notice how absolutely enormous the game at that part of the world.
Must admit I didn't think LoL would have THAT many players, but can't really say I'm surprised either. I'm more surprised it took so many years for someone to make a clone out of one of the most popular (unlicensed, no less) games of all time.
Go esports.
Although I still want DotA2 to rip HoN, DotA and LoL apart at the seams and unite the MOBA scene.
Near unlimited mana is complete bullshit, if you spam your spells like an idiot you're going to be OOM pretty fast, and I'm pretty sure (this complaint existed before HoN/LoL even existed) that lots of people are pissed that a single spell uses 2/3 of your mana bar. And if people go all mana/regen runes, they use tons of other stats so it's balanced anyway. It's like saying quake is crap because there are lots of ammunition available on the maps, and it would be a better game if you had only a forth of that and people had to run around trying to gauntler one another instead. The negligible death penalty is mostly true early game. If you lose someone isolated mid/late game, sure, he's not losing gold, but there's a pretty high probability that your team is going to lose a drake, or a baron. It also allows for more various strategies than just "sitting around waiting for someone to step in the wrong place then gibbing everything. Easier to target spells ? I don't get that one, it's pretty similar, and there are as many skillshots in LoL than in DotA. No deny is kind of like the death penalty, it stalls the game and make heroes with the better attack animation ridiculously better. The only thing it does is artificially add a counter-intuitive mechanic that makes your lane more pushed. What I ACTUALLY miss (because I'm not a blind fanboy) is tower deny, now this actually involved a bit of thought from the 2 teams, some tree-juking, and blocking.
because its a lazy game. its just a glorified warcraft 3 map. everyone thinks they're godlike at it because when you play in pubs its soo easy. all you have to do is be patient and not die.
atleast games like bloodline champions tried to do something new.
they need to crank up the pace of LoL if they want it to be a viable spectator sport. Top lane solo usually stays in lane until max level, never leaving once. Ganking is just far too hard with flash/ghost. And many games only have 10 kills or less by the 30 minute mark.
On July 27 2011 08:48 Gorguts wrote: because its a lazy game. its just a glorified warcraft 3 map. everyone thinks they're godlike at it because when you play in pubs its soo easy. all you have to do is be patient and not die.
atleast games like bloodline champions tried to do something new.
As happy as I am for LoL, and I'm extremely happy for it, I really do wish Bloodline Champions was where LoL is at now. It's such an awesome game with a new style/concept. I just wish they had more to the game, it gets quite bland/repetitive quickly.
On July 27 2011 08:47 Microchaton wrote: Near unlimited mana is complete bullshit, if you spam your spells like an idiot you're going to be OOM pretty fast, and I'm pretty sure (this complaint existed before HoN/LoL even existed) that lots of people are pissed that a single spell uses 2/3 of your mana bar. And if people go all mana/regen runes, they use tons of other stats so it's balanced anyway. It's like saying quake is crap because there are lots of ammunition available on the maps, and it would be a better game if you had only a forth of that and people had to run around trying to gauntler one another instead. The negligible death penalty is mostly true early game. If you lose someone isolated mid/late game, sure, he's not losing gold, but there's a pretty high probability that your team is going to lose a drake, or a baron. It also allows for more various strategies than just "sitting around waiting for someone to step in the wrong place then gibbing everything. Easier to target spells ? I don't get that one, it's pretty similar, and there are as many skillshots in LoL than in DotA. No deny is kind of like the death penalty, it stalls the game and make heroes with the better attack animation ridiculously better. The only thing it does is artificially add a counter-intuitive mechanic that makes your lane more pushed. What I ACTUALLY miss (because I'm not a blind fanboy) is tower deny, now this actually involved a bit of thought from the 2 teams, some tree-juking, and blocking.
I don't think your comparison to FPSs hold up, reducing the ammunition one has would likely making aiming more integral but that depends on the focus of the game, mana isn't exactly comparable to bullets in shooters because some characters in LoL don't even require mana to function, the designs are completely different in this regard. I've often been able to set a rune-page that allows me near-limitless mana on some champions with little sacrifice, particularly if I whore the blue-buff, there's basically no issue, I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but it does lead to less resource management as far your mana pool goes.
The no-death penalty thing is interesting to me, I just feel like the game is both too forgiving and too conservative at the same time. There's a smaller penalty for death, yet the numbers of kills and deaths in the game are much lower overall than in most competitive DotA or HoN matches, I think this has a lot to do with the quick-fixes that exist in the game that make screw-ups fairly forgiving.
I don't really agree with the "easier to target spells" part either, there are plenty of skill-shots in LoL so that's fine. It is more clear what's going where though, but I'm not sure if that's really a bad thing.
I don't think no-deny is like no death penalty at all, it doesn't stall the game, it adds more to the laning phase which is currently a huge snore-fest, it forces both sides to actually engage in something more and compete directly within a lane, I really disagree with you here, I think denying actually adds a lot competitively.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota
.
Srry but the all-around system is even older then DotA - there were so many MOBA-"trailblazers" with similar stuff.
Ur point that DotA heroes have an ultimate and WoW not is wrong. WoW heroes have a kind of ultimate. LoL "jungle" is a tenth of the DotA "forrest" - the traditional role of the forrest was completetly deleted in LoL. Magic Penetration, Armor Penetration, Ability Power thats WoW and NOT, I repeat, NOT DotA. A lot of skills are also similar to WoW, whats ur point?
Imo LoL does not belong into the MOBA genre. There are a lot of factors outside the game which have influence in the game. Glyphs, Summoner-skills, hell even Heroes...
On July 27 2011 08:03 Gamerah wrote: During their livestream of dreamhack, they made it so that every person playing LoL would attribute to the viewer counts, despite the fact that they would not be even watching it. This was done by having the stream embed into the LoL main menu, that was placed in the middle and replaced the other main page features.
Not quite right, you had to actually click on the link to watch the stream, if you were just playing the game the views didn't count.
I am surprised this silly rumor is still around. I guess the mantra is that if you repeat it enough its bound to be true. Even though it has been shot down quickly every single time it has been posted.
The lack of denying, as well as making it quite boring, takes the edge away from the ranged champs. My goodness is support + ad carry a fun lane bottom, each last hitting for god knows how long without a care in the word, the extra element of denying would spice things up in this bland lanening phase.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota
.
Srry but the all-around system is even older then DotA - there were so many MOBA-"trailblazers" with similar stuff.
Ur point that DotA heroes have an ultimate and WoW not is wrong. WoW heroes have a kind of ultimate. LoL "jungle" is a tenth of the DotA "forrest" - the traditional role of the forrest was completetly deleted in LoL. Magic Penetration, Armor Penetration, Ability Power thats WoW and NOT, I repeat, NOT DotA. A lot of skills are also similar to WoW, whats ur point?
Imo LoL does not belong into the MOBA genre. There are a lot of factors outside the game which have influence in the game. Glyphs, Summoner-skills, hell even Heroes...
Gaaaaaaaaaah! I hate the term MobA, it applies to a royal fuck-ton of games. Riot just pushed for it's use so that they wouldn't be associated with DotA.
Can we just call it an AoS, based on the originator of the genre?
On July 27 2011 01:26 Mordiford wrote: It blows my mind that the game could become this successful based on what it is. It was a fun game, but I always felt it really lacked the depth of some of it's competitors. At the end of the day, much like with Zynga and the like, I guess accessibility is what matters in terms of mass market success.
Good for them, it's a great casual games to kick back with some friends.
exactly.
back when hon and lol were new, we would always make fun of lol and how it was childish compared to hon...but now i eat my words. amazing success...gratz to them! but to be honest, i do not like mass market games, cuz most of them are catered to casual players.
Gaaaaaaaaaah! I hate the term MobA, it applies to a royal fuck-ton of games. Riot just pushed for it's use so that they wouldn't be associated with DotA.
Can we just call it an AoS, based on the originator of the genre?
I hate the term, too - but most ppl dont understand me when I use AoS or similar terms...
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota.
I was thinking more along the lines of.
WoW: Grind to be better.
LoL: Grind or pay money to be better than your opponent.
Items are very very different. AP made it that way sorry. Gold system is very different too. No gold loss on death, more base gpm. Items that increase base gold gain. Jungle is riddled with stupid strong buffs. You can buy an infinite amount of wards. Invis reveal wards also have the same sight range as normal wards. No denies. Summoner abilities. Show me one game with someone that doesn't have ghost or flash please. Entire rune system is built on the basis of more time played = bigger edge. Or give me money to increase your edge without having to play as much. Barracks respawn. No Glyph. No Blink. No Runes. Bushes. One mode, easy mode. Want some more?
The laning phase is not bland at all ^_^ especially when youre watching like brand vs annie mid or some mu. similar. Deny goes on, spectators see a gank coming. And then when the ganks go down it's extrememly interesting. For example, look at dreamhack when shushei went vs vlad. That lane was extremely fun to watch.
On July 27 2011 01:26 Mordiford wrote: It blows my mind that the game could become this successful based on what it is. It was a fun game, but I always felt it really lacked the depth of some of it's competitors. At the end of the day, much like with Zynga and the like, I guess accessibility is what matters in terms of mass market success.
Good for them, it's a great casual games to kick back with some friends.
exactly.
back when hon and lol were new, we would always make fun of lol and how it was childish compared to hon...but now i eat my words. amazing success...gratz to them! but to be honest, i do not like mass market games, cuz most of them are catered to casual players.
[/QUOTE]
Casuals are where the money is at, same with micro transactions, why make a unique and satisfying experiance when you can make sooooo much money instead?
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota
.
Srry but the all-around system is even older then DotA - there were so many MOBA-"trailblazers" with similar stuff.
Ur point that DotA heroes have an ultimate and WoW not is wrong. WoW heroes have a kind of ultimate. LoL "jungle" is a tenth of the DotA "forrest" - the traditional role of the forrest was completetly deleted in LoL. Magic Penetration, Armor Penetration, Ability Power thats WoW and NOT, I repeat, NOT DotA. A lot of skills are also similar to WoW, whats ur point?
Imo LoL does not belong into the MOBA genre. There are a lot of factors outside the game which have influence in the game. Glyphs, Summoner-skills, hell even Heroes...
Gaaaaaaaaaah! I hate the term MobA, it applies to a royal fuck-ton of games. Riot just pushed for it's use so that they wouldn't be associated with DotA.
Can we just call it an AoS, based on the originator of the genre?
I'm fine with it, what I don't get is how someone can say it's closer to an MMORPG like WoW than it is to a MOBA/AoS/Dota clone/Whatever you want to call it. Games of the same genre are not carbon copies of each other, both Starcraft and Warcraft 3 are RTSs having very diferent mechanics, just as Counter Strike or Halo, what counts are the basic mechanics. And I'm really surprised people can say LoL is more similar to World of Warcraft than it is to Dota/HoN/AoS/Demigod/Sotis/etc., but I guess there isn't much else I can say.
I guess Age of Empires is closer to The Witcher than to Starcraft as well, since both have swords and stuff.
On July 27 2011 08:07 UndercoverNerd wrote: It's quite fun but there one thing that annoys me. Why does everyone compare it so much with DotA? Yes, Riot Games says it's DotA based...but imo the only thing they have similar is the river and the three lines. Don't get me wrong, but im playing DotA since pre-icefrog times(and very succesfull in tournaments ) and I simply don't get it...For me it has more in common with WoW than with DotA. Riot Games did a nice job there, tho...let's hope they don't screw it up.
I think it's pretty obvious that there are many more similarities than just the map layout. Like the entirety of the gameplay.
Hate to burst your bubble. But it is so different it's crazy. Play some normal mode hon go buy wc3 for $10 and see what he means. It is much more like a WoW MOBA. The Items / rune / leveling system made it that way.
Let's compare the similarities:
Dota: - 5 heroes per team - 3 normal skills and an ultimate, you are able to get every single one of them. -Leveling system, that resets each game. - map - Creeps - Jungle - Gold system is similar, make gold by killing creeps or heroes to buy items. - Towers - Objective, kill the opposing team main building. - Items, not only many are similar, the whole build up and recipes system - A lot of skills are similar - Stronger than normal creep on the river, even if Dota only has one of them. - Probally other things that I am missing
WoW: - Both have skills and levels, even if they work in a completelly diferent way?
I guess what you mean is the talents in wow vs the runes and leveling system that LoL has outside the actual games, but that has almost nothing to do with game mechanics. I really have no idea how you can say LoL is closer to WoW than it is to Dota.
I was thinking more along the lines of.
WoW: Grind to be better.
LoL: Grind or pay money to be better than your opponent.
Items are very very different. AP made it that way sorry. Gold system is very different too. No gold loss on death, more base gpm. Items that increase base gold gain. Jungle is riddled with stupid strong buffs. You can buy an infinite amount of wards. Invis reveal wards also have the same sight range as normal wards. No denies. Summoner abilities. Show me one game with someone that doesn't have ghost or flash please. Entire rune system is built on the basis of more time played = bigger edge. Or give me money to increase your edge without having to play as much. Barracks respawn. No Glyph. No Blink. No Runes. Bushes. One mode, easy mode. Want some more?
The point wasn't how close or not it is to Dota, I know it is not a carbon copy, but how close is it to it compared to WoW. Yes those things are diferent from Dota, while similar in broad terms, but are they really closer in WoW?
Yes the entire metagame is completely different and all the out of game things RIOT put in make it much more like WoW than a general MOBA. The big kicker is the item stats in game.
But it's actually a really good game for something that's free. What else can you get for that quality? Flash games? Really grindy MMO's? But if you're looking for team-based competition, it's very good.
Why do I play it? It's free and decently competitive. I find it's a nice relaxing game when I don't feel like playing on iCCup.
What I also liked is that I could comp stomp with other noobs until I felt comfortable enough to play pvp with other noobs. It's a team game and I'm very cautious about joining when I know I'm going to be the weak link. This allows me to grind out a bunch of games with noob randoms or my friends until I feel like I'm at least somewhat competent. Also, I've yet to run into BM'ers, but then I don't play ranked.
I also liked the rotating champion system as it really does limit how many sorts of opponents I end up facing. 70 champions is rather overwhelming for a game I'm not interested in perfecting all aspects. But I can unlock my preferred champions and perfect my builds and attacks.
I dunno, for a casual of MOBA games that stumbled upon it from a recommendation one LAN night, it seems ideally designed.
No replays is pretty dumb however. Don't think I'd watch them anyways. Can't imagine watching a tournament of it.
edit: And to the one that says there is no mana management- maybe it's not as significant as other MOBA's, but there certainly is mana management. At least for Ashe, until late game.
500000 players online at the same time, but only 1.4 mio in 24 hours, this are very courios numbers. I have seen player numbers of other games, where the total number of daily players was at least 10 times higher, then the peak number of players online at once.
On July 27 2011 09:36 Desti wrote: 500000 players online at the same time, but only 1.4 mio in 24 hours, this are very courios numbers. I have seen player numbers of other games, where the total number of daily players was at least 10 times higher, then the peak number of players online at once.
Don't hate me, but I love playing LoL because I can actually play and not just get wtfowned by people who are 1000x better than me like in Dota or HoN.
Because of this though, I'd rather see Dota or HoN as a prominent e-sport.
This game is very fun. I even got some buddies who dont play SC anymore because of it. Personally, the game is a very casual game that I sit down with a glass of wine after the wife falls asleep. But I didnt realize it had such a base.
On July 27 2011 09:36 Desti wrote: 500000 players online at the same time, but only 1.4 mio in 24 hours, this are very courios numbers. I have seen player numbers of other games, where the total number of daily players was at least 10 times higher, then the peak number of players online at once.
I don't actually play the game but my friend does and he has been saying that it has like 30 minute queues so he usually queues as he gets home and leaves the game running and possibly plays later on.
This could be the case for many others as well, and like someone said online not in matches.
I'm not fan of DotA type games personally but this can only be good for the growth of e-sports, e-sports will never become big with just hardcore gamers. Potentially some of these LoL players will transition to games like SC2.
I'm glad LoL's doing so well, but honestly I cannot see anyone who isn't a player have any interest in watching it whatsoever. So while it may bring in some nice numbers due to sheer volume of numbers, I don't necessarily want LoL to be the premier E-Sport.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't know why that argument would be important at all anyways. Farmville beats them both combined but that doesn't make it a better game.
On July 27 2011 09:36 Desti wrote: 500000 players online at the same time, but only 1.4 mio in 24 hours, this are very courios numbers. I have seen player numbers of other games, where the total number of daily players was at least 10 times higher, then the peak number of players online at once.
I don't actually play the game but my friend does and he has been saying that it has like 30 minute queues so he usually queues as he gets home and leaves the game running and possibly plays later on.
This could be the case for many others as well, and like someone said online not in matches.
I'm not fan of DotA type games personally but this can only be good for the growth of e-sports, e-sports will never become big with just hardcore gamers. Potentially some of these LoL players will transition to games like SC2.
If you have a really high ELO, the game makes sure to pit you with and against people of your level. around 1000, it was like 20 secs for a rank game. I'm at about 1500, and my queue now takes about 1 and a 1/2 minutes. This makes perfect sense, the only problem is that someone will always be at the tippy-top, and riot can't compensate people for playing against better or weaker opponents, since the role you play has a drastically different effect on the game.
Standard set-up nowadays I think is strong AP carry mid, strong sustainable main carry top, AD dps bottom laning with a support to keep them alive, and a jungler whose role is dependent on the champion, but I think jungler is more of a pseudo-roamer, since by the mere fact that you don't know where 1 player is, you cannot over-extend, hence why warding and map control are so important. I think its a bit of a blessing/curse, since there is no doubt in my mind that LoL fully utilizes teamwork, but it also makes the use of extreme passivity a must have weapon in your arsenal for any good player, something I and a lot of people (including spectators I'm sure) have a lot of trouble accepting, since being aggressive, pushing your limits and rewarding your aggression is my main source of fun in LoL.
I think that is owed mostly to skill differentials, and something that shouldn't be avoided. A fancy way of me saying "I like to pwn noobs, but if people are as good as me, how can i handily pwn them "
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
To draw another analogy, hopefully this works... Let's say BroodWar is like a version of basketball where you had to tap yourself on the head every first time you bounced the ball and on the ass every second time, it would be ridiculously difficult and have a higher skill cap and all that jazz and once people get used to it you'd say buttheadsketball is the more difficult game than basketball with it's standard simplification of removing the head and ass tapping.
This is a terrible terrible analogy and shows it's a horrible to portrait the differences betwee SC2 and BW on a competitive level..
All I'm going to say is good for Riot man. They clearly see their game popularity shooting up, they're not going valve on that and doing some money-grabbing, instead they are fully supporting their own game. A game like this is always going to be more popular, because it's fun, very accessible and it's free. Plus the existence of any skill ceiling at all, which isn't too high allowing for casual people to get good, makes for an immensely popular game. All it can do in the end is help e-sports, and I assume nobody in this thread wants to hurt e-sports right?
No gold loss on deaths imply timing attacks, similar to how Starcraft 2 you can expect strengths in your opponent over time and their income. This brings timing attacks/Defends. Runes/Masterys micro transitions do not effect the game, as much as you might think. The level 30 (where most people play the game) is like getting out of beginners league, able to play free matches where masteries are all on the same level (30 points) and Runes hardly effect anything when skills and gamesense win you the game. Wholehardedly untill you are above the 1500/1600+ elo range.
Stop basing this game off of 50 or less matches played.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
To draw another analogy, hopefully this works... Let's say BroodWar is like a version of basketball where you had to tap yourself on the head every first time you bounced the ball and on the ass every second time, it would be ridiculously difficult and have a higher skill cap and all that jazz and once people get used to it you'd say buttheadsketball is the more difficult game than basketball with it's standard simplification of removing the head and ass tapping.
This is a terrible terrible analogy and shows it's a horrible to portrait the differences betwee SC2 and BW on a competitive level..
I think a better analogy would be taking basketball, lowering the rim 4 feet so height plays no role and removing any dribbling rules in order to better integrate new players.
Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
On July 27 2011 02:25 K_Dilkington wrote: Just because a game is popular doesn't mean it's a good esport game. World of warcraft is the best example of this; it's hugely popular but it was never a good esport game. It was too random and simplistic in it's nature. The same is true for LoL; it's a fun casual game but it lacks depth, is to simplistic and is therefore not suited to be played as a sport.
But esport is ruled by sponsors so you will always have games like this unfortunately, it's too tempting for the tournament organizers to resist.
do you even know how simplistic sc2 is compared to broodwar? yet sc2 is doing ok at a esports, a esports game shouldnt be measured by its level of depth but how much it can show to the spectators
To draw another analogy, hopefully this works... Let's say BroodWar is like a version of basketball where you had to tap yourself on the head every first time you bounced the ball and on the ass every second time, it would be ridiculously difficult and have a higher skill cap and all that jazz and once people get used to it you'd say buttheadsketball is the more difficult game than basketball with it's standard simplification of removing the head and ass tapping.
This is a terrible terrible analogy and shows it's a horrible to portrait the differences betwee SC2 and BW on a competitive level..
I think a better analogy would be taking basketball, lowering the rim 4 feet so height plays no role and removing any dribbling rules in order to better integrate new players.
That's the analogy I made between DotA and League of Legends if you re-read my post, he was commenting on the specific comparison I made between BW and Starcraft 2 where I feel the changes were different from DotA to LoL.
In the case of BW to SC2, I feel most of the changes were mechanical simplification while the game largely maintains the same depth with more of emphasis on scouting. The changes from DotA to LoL are somewhat fundamental, everything is substantially easier with some gameplay elements removed entirely such as denying.
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
Generalizing is fun, I specifically mentioned I've played over 1000 games including games at a fairly high level. Some of the stuff people are saying is fairly accurate, some of it is hyperbolical, but making a general statement addressing nothing doesn't really add anything.
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
now you're coming from a lol fanboy pov instead of a neutral one, kinda hurts your credibility. play dota and talk about mana efficiency, no blue buff no mp5 blues/yellows and skills cost way more. you have to consciously think about it, bottles rune fights. regen rune is retarded though, they seriously need to fix rune randomness.
hate the comparisons to wow, runes and heroes are not comparable to gear in wow. i've played wow and let me tell you you can have blues and still get 2200+ if you're a really good player. gear isn't a limiting factor, it's a bonus. if you had r1 glads pvping in like blue pvp gear they can get gladiator. some people need heroes to play well. that's just up to the player
runes are kinda comparable to gear, but gear has actually more of an effect. t1 runes are so good
i disagree with the comparisons of bw to sc2, dota doesn't require top shape mechanics. it's not like in lol you can just win by outcsing or outlaning people, whereas in bw macro is such an important factor and sc2 it's easier but hard to get perfect.
and i'm not criticizing the game, i really like it. just being perfectly honest. can't really argue that i find it more fun then dota, even though i do since that's opinion though
No gold loss on deaths imply timing attacks, similar to how Starcraft 2 you can expect strengths in your opponent over time and their income. This brings timing attacks/Defends. Runes/Masterys micro transitions do not effect the game, as much as you might think. The level 30 (where most people play the game) is like getting out of beginners league, able to play free matches where masteries are all on the same level (30 points) and Runes hardly effect anything when skills and gamesense win you the game. Wholehardedly untill you are above the 1500/1600+ elo range.
Stop basing this game off of 50 or less matches played.
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
now you're coming from a lol fanboy pov instead of a neutral one, kinda hurts your credibility. play dota and talk about mana efficiency, no blue buff no mp5 blues/yellows and skills cost way more. you have to consciously think about it, bottles rune fights. regen rune is retarded though, they seriously need to fix rune randomness.
hate the comparisons to wow, runes and heroes are not comparable to gear in wow. i've played wow and let me tell you you can have blues and still get 2200+ if you're a really good player. gear isn't a limiting factor, it's a bonus. if you had r1 glads pvping in like blue pvp gear they can get gladiator. some people need heroes to play well. that's just up to the player
i disagree with the comparisons of bw to sc2, dota doesn't require top shape mechanics. it's not like in lol you can just win by outcsing or outlaning people, whereas in bw macro is such an important factor and sc2 it's easier but hard to get perfect.
actually you can win in dota just by outcsing. of course it depends on the heroes, but to lose a lane that bad early on usually that means the person you're laning against outskills you by a lot anyway (or you really fucked up)
and imo theres nothing wrong with runes. the "randomness" really just ends up emphasizing how important map control with wards, smokes, and ganks.
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played.
Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least.
The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go.
Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS.
Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's)
Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd.
Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment.
Saying flash is a free blink dagger is just plain wrong, it's like 1/3 of the range with and has like a 6 minutes cooldown...AND you give up another useful spell. I'm not saying I'm fine with everybody having a free blink, but fact is, the state of the game with flash is fine, and being aware of everybody's summoners and their cooldowns add even more depth to the game (some ganks don't even try to kill the person, just to make them blow their summoners).
People saying graphics are messy are just beginners or trolling, I have played hundreds of games of DotA, same for HoN, and LoL is by far the easiest to follow especially in teamfight, HoN being the worst of the three because of their graphic choices. Even experienced HoN players admit teamfights look like complete clusterfucks quite often.
Free teleports home except it's interruptable on hit and takes 8 seconds (I think) of standing still. Is it really worse than having to walk back and spend 2 minutes not playing the game ? No, not really, it's not fun at all.
"Everything can be bought in one place" : What the fuck kind of complain is that ? Is that just for the sake of trying to find reasons not to like the game ? The only reason secret shops exist in the first place is to gank people on them. And surprise, at similar positions (except on both sides of the mid lane) you find Golem/Lizard which fulfill the same purpose with much more efficiency. And lane shops ? They don't exist in LoL precisely because you can "tp back", having both would not make any sense.
I like to play LoL and have put in probably 250ish games. I hit lvl 25 and have about 1/4 or so of the champions and a general runebook that fits my overall style. I used LoL as a stepping stone to HoN, and am currently getting raped in that. The reason i am trying to switch is that the people that play LoL are retarded and most games are one sided. Being an average SC2 player I have basic unit control and can roll faces in my match-made games. As for LoL as an esport.... I cant stand watching it. I can watch SC2 for hours at a time, but I struggle to watch 30 minutes of LoL. Its fun to play not watch, but thats just me.
On July 27 2011 12:49 Microchaton wrote: Saying flash is a free blink dagger is just plain wrong, it's like 1/3 of the range with and has like a 6 minutes cooldown...AND you give up another useful spell. I'm not saying I'm fine with everybody having a free blink, but fact is, the state of the game with flash is fine, and being aware of everybody's summoners and their cooldowns add even more depth to the game (some ganks don't even try to kill the person, just to make them blow their summoners).
People saying graphics are messy are just beginners or trolling, I have played hundreds of games of DotA, same for HoN, and LoL is by far the easiest to follow especially in teamfight, HoN being the worst of the three because of their graphic choices. Even experienced HoN players admit teamfights look like complete clusterfucks quite often.
Free teleports home except it's interruptable on hit and takes 8 seconds (I think) of standing still. Is it really worse than having to walk back and spend 2 minutes not playing the game ? No, not really, it's not fun at all.
"Everything can be bought in one place" : What the fuck kind of complain is that ? Is that just for the sake of trying to find reasons not to like the game ? The only reason secret shops exist in the first place is to gank people on them. And surprise, at similar positions (except on both sides of the mid lane) you find Golem/Lizard which fulfill the same purpose with much more efficiency. And lane shops ? They don't exist in LoL precisely because you can "tp back", having both would not make any sense.
I really don't think Flash is okay, Riot said they were going to remove it like 8 months ago but just left it in because it was a necessary crutch for a lot of heroes, it isn't balanced as a summoner spell, just about every single person runs Flash in competitive games, at Dreamhack you could see every player on both teams with Flash. It's just a bogus escape that makes early game agression painfully wasteful unless one side massively overextends, doubling back to get one kill is generally only worth it if the opposing player continues to play aggressively despite Flash being down which doesn't happen at higher levels of play.
The graphics complaint comes down to personal preference, it's not really bad on a technical level as far as graphics go, you like that's fine, you don't like it, that's your personal preference. I'm personally fine with the graphics.
Recall isn't really a huge issue, I think the bigger issue is the lack of a real team map presence element like the scroll of town portal or the homecoming stone from DotA and HoN respectively, I think that's part of what makes those games more exciting and intense because players can force themselves to get close to one another with enough effort and it also creates excitement for those last minute juke-escapes. It's not really possible to juke escape with an 8 second recall unless you could have pretty much made it out anyways and your opponents royally screw up in the chase, also Teleport's cooldown is too long for it to really be worth it to most players as a way of being there for your team.
I don't really have any problem with everything being available in one place, I like the dynamic of the different shops in DotA/HoN, it's not really a positive or a negative, it can go either way depending on the situation, juking to the goblin shop, grabbing an item and piecing out with things like the the scroll of tp or buying that blink dagger at just the right time before a gank, the former occurs more often but basically it just allows teams to get together more with an easily accessible teleport.
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
lol... I play tanks exclusively on LoL and with a bunch of measely lvl1 mana/regen runes I can own early game so hard without ever worrying about mana. It's laughable if you compare it to Dota/HoN where you actually have to manage your spell usage very very carefully while maintaing a safe distance from the enemy.
No gold loss on deaths imply timing attacks, similar to how Starcraft 2 you can expect strengths in your opponent over time and their income. This brings timing attacks/Defends. Runes/Masterys micro transitions do not effect the game, as much as you might think. The level 30 (where most people play the game) is like getting out of beginners league, able to play free matches where masteries are all on the same level (30 points) and Runes hardly effect anything when skills and gamesense win you the game. Wholehardedly untill you are above the 1500/1600+ elo range.
Stop basing this game off of 50 or less matches played.
Im 2 levels short of 30 in LoL and ive played over 250 games. No one uses fortify due to the ridic cooldown and everyone using nothing but flash. Runes are nowhere near as powerful as neutral buffs simply because there is only one every 2 minutes. Bushes are nowhere near the level of juking you see in DotA/HoN with tangos. I can guarantee you if I spent the time to play LoL, I could easily get top tier and I'm nowhere near skilled enough to be a top DotA/HoN player. (1700-1800 MMR). And I love how you think runes do not matter. AN entire crit rune page gives around 20% passive crit. FROM RUNES, on any hero. Flat dodge seals give .75% dodge PER SEAL. It really does matter, sorry to say. No TP's at all its a very clunky unaction oriented version of DotA.
PS: If you can tell me how to check my solo ELO i'm sure its decent. I play lvl 30's with full rune pages when I do play.
I remember when i was playing in the beta :3 its such a good game hahaha... its the perfect game to relief stress after failing in sc2 :D! League of Legends as a pro scene is still growing, but since its free i feel it brings such a huge audience. Learning the games mechanics isn't very hard its pretty simple but i feel playing to high levels it gets really intense, watch some pro matches you can see how team work plays a huge role, and positioning and the picks, etc. but i suppose all this already existed in dota and now is passed into hon... Since i have never played hon i don't know how to compare them but i feel league of legends is fun to play but only in high level because, you can find horrible horrible players and its not even funny, they play ranked games and have high elo and its like wtf? why are you here.. but sigh i suppose that happens in all games
I hope Riot keeps making new heroes for this game, it would suck if they decided to stop developing this game once Dota 2 comes out. I don't understand why people hate on this game so much just because it's casual. I played Dota and HoN and each game brings me different kinds of joy.
I think the success of LoL shows that the general (i.e. casual) gamer population wants to play games where: - They get matched with equal skilled opponents straight away (unlike BW/dota). - Linear learning curve (unlike the steep one of some other games). - Depth (where a skilled player will almost always win).
I've heard some arguments that LoL doesn't fare too well in depth, but is this really the case? I don't play it and don't follow the scene so I'm not sure.
The demand for these types of games will continue to increase.
On July 27 2011 13:32 Xaerkar wrote: I hope Riot keeps making new heroes for this game, it would suck if they decided to stop developing this game once Dota 2 comes out. I don't understand why people hate on this game so much just because it's casual. I played Dota and HoN and each game brings me different kinds of joy.
I do not hate this game. It should not be the premier competitive game for the genre and most people disagree with that.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile
Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile
Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit...
MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me!
But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
I think LoL caters perfectly to the casual audience and that's why it's so successful. It doesn't turf the newer players out like HoN/DotA do (despite both being way more challenging and satisfying to get good at - there is no doubt on this point).
As an esport though, I really don't feel this game fits the bill (unless some heavy modification was made for top level play, a pro mod if you will). Even watching it, it seems way too gratuitous to players who are under-performing. Nonetheless for a free game it certainly is fun .
Can't wait for DotA 2 to come out and be the primary esport for this genre^^
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile
Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit...
MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me!
But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
a few of us in the hon/dota thread came up with the name "Team Role Playing Strategy" or TRPS, which kind of fits for all the games since AoS doesnt make sense for anybody who didnt know what Aeon of Strife was (its more of the insider name anyway) and is more telling of the gameplay than "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena". RP because it draws aspects from RPGs and everybody on the team has a different "role", strategy because it derives from RTS and has very similar elements, and team cause you're with a team just like in team deathmatch/CTF. the only games TRPS doesnt fit with are the ones that are controlled by one guy, but those arent really played anyway, and the nice thing is that all these games except for maybe BLC can fit under it
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played.
Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least.
The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go.
Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS.
Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's)
Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd.
Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment.
sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason.
I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
the game just make a lot of SENSE. new champion rotations ease new players into the game IP/RP system for managing their income, and give player a sense of progression Good match making, sensible ladder system.
i have watched a few "high level" LoL matches and it seems boring to me... I understand sometimes some matches in dota/hon/lol would be a safe carry vs carry fest but the ones i've seen in LoL so far has always been low on action and more on neutral creep farming. Maybe I've been watching the wrong VoDs...
I dont think LoL is as fun as dota/hon anyways. I think its too simplistic but I think if i never had played dota/hon previously, I probably would enjoy LoL more... but having played dota/hon, can't seem to like it.
The number of players and prize money in tourneys does seem intriguing...
Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games.
On July 27 2011 14:28 Kluey wrote: Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games.
you're comparing black ops to league of legends?
i couldn't think of the word "compare" for 10 seconds because i was in disbelief of how outlandish that is. companies can't make games just for hardcore people, you need either a dedicated hardcore community (fightin games) or you need to cater to SOME casuals.
and i'll have you know league of legends is much more well produced then 95% of the games produced. i bet you've ever even played it before
On July 27 2011 01:29 Synwave wrote: I really liked the game but eventually got turned off by the sheer abusiveness of the player base. It was rarely even directed at me (used to be a DoTA player so I dont feed etc) but it finally drove me away. These are interesting numbers though. I may have a peek back in it to see if they've done anything to clear up/suspend abusive accounts. I had no idea it had gotten this large!
Abusiveness like general BM?
I agree. I'm working on super secret project which aims to replace humans on the internet. Bots will infiltrate internet and impersonate human beings but be good mannered. Okay I lie, I'm not working on it.
Also DotA players should give a bit of slack to LoL simply because Guinsoo (which helped make DotA all stars what it is today) is also the guy behind LoL.
Arguably Icefrog revamped and optimized a lot of stuff (thanks to Vexorian and other WC3 modders) but Guinsoo still built the foundation (okay that was Eul but he made the foundation better. Though i'm only talking about DotA specifically, I know the genre existed before).
It's good to hear LoL is doing well.
As for the community - Unfortunately that's the case with most online communities (though it affects games with mandatory team vs team more than 1v1 due to teammates playing the blame game 95% of the time).
On July 27 2011 14:28 Kluey wrote: Just goes to show that games that are noob-friendly only succeed nowadays. Even Starcraft 2 was dumbed down to an extent(still requires more skill than 99% of the games) for a bigger fan base.
Black Ops, League of Legends getting all this attention even though they are not quality games.
you're comparing black ops to league of legends?
i couldn't think of the word "compare" for 10 seconds because i was in disbelief of how outlandish that is. companies can't make games just for hardcore people, you need either a dedicated hardcore community (fightin games) or you need to cater to SOME casuals.
and i'll have you know league of legends is much more well produced then 95% of the games produced. i bet you've ever even played it before
well produced is that what those graphics qualify as.
Its easy mode dota with items bought with time played. How is that not a casual game?
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played.
Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least.
The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go.
Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS.
Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's)
Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd.
Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment.
sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason.
I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
If you're good you'll be matching with players who are also good. Just because you've played DotA doesn't mean you're a god at LoL either since you have no idea what the 80 something champions do. I think the best part about the lower levels is that nobody is gonna have any champions or if they do it'll be pretty rare. You get to learn what the champion rotation (10 champions) does that week instead of getting demolished by a different champion every game and can't even figure out what you're doing wrong. Deleting 90% of the learning curve for newer players means they'll get better faster because they have to learn less things at once. The objective based gameplay of LoL also takes some getting used to rather than DotA. If you're winning every game cause you're that awesome and LoL is so easy you'll be level 10 or 15 in a small number of games and then you have maybe half the game minus the champions.
Your first game of DotA you were probably some feeding guy who got blasted and flamed by your entire team and told to uninstall wc3. There's people like that on League as well, but if you lose a lot of games you'll be matching people just like you who have no idea what they're doing. It was only ~125 wins to get to level 30. Tier 1 runes (which are easily affordable) give half the bonuses of tier 3 runes and the runes themselves give very small bonuses so you can do cute things like activate Akali's passive at level 1 or get a small advantage in lane. You could alternately do something that gives you a stronger mid/late game through per level runes. Until you're in the upper bounds of ranked play it's very doubtful that your runes are going to win you the game.
Saying it's a forced 150 hour tutorial is a gross exaggeration.
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
lol... I play tanks exclusively on LoL and with a bunch of measely lvl1 mana/regen runes I can own early game so hard without ever worrying about mana. It's laughable if you compare it to Dota/HoN where you actually have to manage your spell usage very very carefully while maintaing a safe distance from the enemy.
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
On July 27 2011 01:29 Synwave wrote: I really liked the game but eventually got turned off by the sheer abusiveness of the player base. It was rarely even directed at me (used to be a DoTA player so I dont feed etc) but it finally drove me away. These are interesting numbers though. I may have a peek back in it to see if they've done anything to clear up/suspend abusive accounts. I had no idea it had gotten this large!
Abusiveness like general BM?
I agree. I'm working on super secret project which aims to replace humans on the internet. Bots will infiltrate internet and impersonate human beings but be good mannered. Okay I lie, I'm not working on it.
Also DotA players should give a bit of slack to LoL simply because Guinsoo (which helped make DotA all stars what it is today) is also the guy behind LoL.
Arguably Icefrog revamped and optimized a lot of stuff (thanks to Vexorian and other WC3 modders) but Guinsoo still built the foundation (okay that was Eul but he made the foundation better. Though i'm only talking about DotA specifically, I know the genre existed before).
It's good to hear LoL is doing well.
As for the community - Unfortunately that's the case with most online communities (though it affects games with mandatory team vs team more than 1v1 due to teammates playing the blame game 95% of the time).
Guinsoo is one of several important people they have working in the design team of LoL, which is why it's probably performing so well. Their head of design is Tom "Zileas" Cadwell (an ex sc1 "pro" player, no less) who previously worked for blizzard and worked on wc3 and wow. Their head of champion design is Ryan "Morello" Scott who previously worked at Arenanet on GW2. They also just recently (like within the last month) hired Christina Norman from bioware source: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/07/12/mass-effect-gameplay-lead-christina-norman-now-at-riot-games/2 So their design department is pretty awesome
having blink on every character is so much worse than having it be an item. Bushes are the most uninteresting form of juking in existence. Having champions does relate to power in draft mode, at least having the 20-30 characters that are worth playing is important. Having a 300 game tutorial to get to lvl 30 is honestly the worst part of the IP/RP/XP system.
Bashing the game with 800 games played.
Its available to every character, such as its available for purchase in dota (except pudge/VS) Opinion. You should have at least 20 champions by level 30, you should also have experenced play with them at least.
The Level 1-30 thing as i mentioned as a tutorial should be your playtime to get used to the mechanics/champions, it is irrelevant to say its imbalanced due to everyone being in a practice league of skill (minus the perfect world of smurfing) Most mechanic complaining in league of legends, even from experienced players like you, is mostly unwarranted. Its all in game design and how the developers want the flow to go.
Then again, matchmaking would be hell at this popular of a stage, trying to bring in a market of people who never even played a top-down RTS.
Is it really bad for the game to have a "long" tutorial untill people hit a balanced level? Especially when they want to "grow" the game and its E-Sports community? Riot games does everything in its power to cater to the fanbase and customers, AMAZING customer support. Active and talking developers. Amazing people on the staff from all talents (including Blizzard employee's)
Then again, this will recieve opinionated bash, and the second i mention the employee's are from World of warcraft design and War3 Balancing people will mock how they do not know how to design fun/popular games that bring in a competitive crowd.
Threads of success should be met with praise, not all this random game bashing. Is this even a League of legends Lets discuss balance or why this game sucks thread? Or a League of legends hits major growth for a "well Designed game" As you will now bash me for this last line of comment.
sure the blink dagger is available to everyone, but do you really think that as many people would take blink as an item as take it as a summoner spell? the problem with flash in LoL is that everyone takes it, not just the champions who rely on it for whatever reason.
I absolutely think that it is bad for a game to force you to do a 150hour long tutorial, i admit that it helps people new to the game because it cuts down on the complexity, but someone coming from DotA/HoN and even some people who are new to DotA likes dont need that much tutorial and it really doesn't need to be forced on people, i hated the 20 min long tutorial in quake live because i already knew how to play, let alone a 150 hour one.
That's the thing though, it's really necessary for those 150 hours (maybe less) of League of Legends for a player to truely understand the in and outs of 80% of the champions, how they are countered or why they become "OP" easily, whether Baron or dragon or tower or acing a team is more of a priority at which stage of the game etc. I've played as many games as you and I can honestly say that majority of my understanding of how the game works is due to experience playing around with different heroes and facing and trying to beat "OP" heroes or how to co-ordinate a split push or early baron.
Then again, this process is also the downfall of competitive LoL as every single HoN/DotA/MOBA-genre player come into this game with an arrogant attitude and think that the same playstyle in other games apply to LoL, but aren't willing to learn from each game they play because they're "OWNING AND GOING 20/3 EVERY GAME".
On July 27 2011 11:46 Pratoss wrote: Loving all the LoL hate coming from people who have at most probably played 10-15 games and think their the shit at it or something...
No mana management? are you kidding me go play almost any champion (some have abilities that allow them to gain mana back) and you'll see this is hardly true.
As for the other stuff people are saying the last post on page 9 covers it well.
lol... I play tanks exclusively on LoL and with a bunch of measely lvl1 mana/regen runes I can own early game so hard without ever worrying about mana. It's laughable if you compare it to Dota/HoN where you actually have to manage your spell usage very very carefully while maintaing a safe distance from the enemy.
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Actually, at 'higher' ranked games, laning is so passive as the damage dealt by most spells at low levels is outhealed by passive regen and leveling up. Flash should remain in the game, as it's one of the only thing in the game that requires individual skill (flash-dodging a skillshot, flashing in to AoE stun tibbers, flash+burst combo to kill someone) and is a significant part in the mindgames that are played throughout laning and teamfights.
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Come on man, at least speak some truth if you are exaggerating. If you are out of position in hon/dota during laning you can get heavily punished (creeps denied, harassed, nuked, etc), and sometimes dying is a part of that. I know it might sound outlandish to you because in LoL there's like 1 death in the first 10 minutes. Calling hon/dota "facerolling" is dumb as hell, and equally ironic since LoL is widely considered the easier game to play.
Also, flash is retarded. It's a get out of jail free card on a cooldown that rewards people for fucking up, or gives them free initiation. Imagine if port key or dagger came standard on every hero in hon/dota. It breaks the game. I can't believe flash has survived since closed beta, when I actually played and thought LoL was pretty fun.
On July 27 2011 15:53 Inflicted_ wrote: Then again, this process is also the downfall of competitive LoL as every single HoN/DotA/MOBA-genre player come into this game with an arrogant attitude and think that the same playstyle in other games apply to LoL, but aren't willing to learn from each game they play because they're "OWNING AND GOING 20/3 EVERY GAME".
Even people who haven't played HoN/DotA are like that. It pissed me off that literally 99% of the people I queued up with when I still played solo queue would play the same type of carry and still expect to go 20/3 and win just because they did that from like level 1-25. It doesn't work that way and I ended up losing all the time because they play so selfish and greedy (I only play tanks and supports). It's still the same when queuing up in solo games at level 30. Except now I lose and it's always my fault that we lose team fights when all the carries initiate at the most retarded times and I have to bail them out. This is why I never play alone, ever.
Only in ranked games do the teams actually make sense in my experience (except one time the other team had 3 AD carries and 2 AP carries; we stomped them obviously).
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Come on man, at least speak some truth if you are exaggerating. If you are out of position in hon/dota during laning you can get heavily punished (creeps denied, harassed, nuked, etc), and sometimes dying is a part of that. I know it might sound outlandish to you because in LoL there's like 1 death in the first 10 minutes. Calling hon/dota "facerolling" is dumb as hell, and equally ironic since LoL is widely considered the easier game to play.
Also, flash is retarded. It's a get out of jail free card on a cooldown that rewards people for fucking up, or gives them free initiation. Imagine if port key or dagger came standard on every hero in hon/dota. It breaks the game. I can't believe flash has survived since closed beta, when I actually played and thought LoL was pretty fun.
(Repeating point from post before) Flash is still in the game because it's one of the only thing that allows the player's individual skills to have an impact on the result of the game. There's so many things that you can do with Flash and so many opportunities or moments that you have to use your understanding of the game to make the most of out your flashes.
It's a get out of jail card... only if your reaction is good enough that you flash before that champion stuns/suppresses you (they can flash to close the distance as well) and you get burst down instantly. Most of the time, it also forces team coordination as when you are truly being ganked, they have to take their ability to blink into consideration and time their 'crowd controls' for a certain kill or block all your escape routes. The idea of protection in the early game is also vital as it allows players to choose ranged carries without simply dying to every champion with 'crowd control' and high burst (while allowing enemy bursters who are more skilled than you to completely zone and kill you with a surprise flash), and the more skilled players can bypass the early stages of the game. Not to mention, if you watch/player in higher levels, you can .see that the players who simply use flash to go in a straight line are often still killed/ganked
Free initiation is good, because it adds some action into the game and allows easier ganking as well as juking (takes advantage of your ability to flash over walls instead of an enemy who doesn't understand how trees and fog of war works) and forces the enemy to constantly be in the right position and requires excellent team co-ordination to take advantage of the surprise initiation (a lot of the time, Amumu's ult goes to waste as everyone's too far behind).
in DotA/HoN you only have enough mana to cast a couple spells normally early on and they can mean death for somebody. In League you can cast that spell a bunch more times but if it hits you once you lose a proportional amount of hitpoints so you don't get blown up in two seconds. It's a lot more interesting having to dodge skill shots the entire time you're in lane instead of waiting for that perfect moment to faceroll your keyboard to 100->0 somebody. You're welcome to disagree, but that's my opinion.
The only thing I agree with is that Flash should be removed. At the very least they made it stop dodging projectiles awhile back ^_^ Knowing if people have summoners up or not is part of the game though that adds to the "depth" or "skill ceiling" of the game.
Come on man, at least speak some truth if you are exaggerating. If you are out of position in hon/dota during laning you can get heavily punished (creeps denied, harassed, nuked, etc), and sometimes dying is a part of that. I know it might sound outlandish to you because in LoL there's like 1 death in the first 10 minutes. Calling hon/dota "facerolling" is dumb as hell, and equally ironic since LoL is widely considered the easier game to play.
Also, flash is retarded. It's a get out of jail free card on a cooldown that rewards people for fucking up, or gives them free initiation. Imagine if port key or dagger came standard on every hero in hon/dota. It breaks the game. I can't believe flash has survived since closed beta, when I actually played and thought LoL was pretty fun.
i like the game as a whole, sometimes primarily because of the people i play with
at the same time, i don't find it surprising in the slightest anymore that i know female players who play the game quite often, and quite well
there are some problems with knowing how the play the game well, and some champion matchups in lane are frankly just much harder/easier given that in pub games (not ranked games) everyone just plays what they want in blind-pick
it's the same for dota and HoN considering hero matchups but from experience in LoL, it seems to reward passive and defensive play a lot more when towers are extremely hard to push/dive early early on
if i had a port-key in LoL i'd be so damn happy, it's 1/6th the cooldown that flash has and being such a team-based game (where your team tends to roll around together the later the game gets) it's very easy to blow it on the smallest of things i'd be happy because of how much abuse i'd be able to do eg. with nida's max range spear throw, and amumu able to get to wherever he wants to don't forget the range on the port-key, flash barely allows a wall-jump
I played TONS of Dota (not really competetively, just pick up league) and tryed HON (after a Dota break) after 2 games i uninstalled it and never ever looked back. There is just no point playing HON when you also could play DOTA.
LoL is a little diffrent, at least when you play solo. Feeding is not as bad as in Dota, so even if your team has one total idiot you can still win... No denying (and other stuff) "hurts" a little but u get used to it. LoL is just fun, i don't take it too serious andhave a blast. Way more "pick up" games become "good/ok" compared to Dota where the ~2 "best" players per team way to often kinda decide the whole outcome of the game because they feed on the scrubs . This is good for HIGH level/team based competetive play, it's terrible for people that just want to play a "quick" Dota and don't have several buddies at hand at all times.
LoL is way more casual, but still deep enough to be interesting.
The LP come fast... Only the "leveling up" to 30i takes ages...
I don't like lol at all after trying it out and much prefer HoN but I can certainly understand why people like it. Easier game to play while relaxing honestly with enough depth to keep people playing.
The reason I prefer LoL over HoN is that while playing HoN at a high level was so serious and you couldn't make a single mistake. Playing LoL is so casual and easy. Especially if you play with friends.
On July 27 2011 17:28 ain wrote: LoL is still a horrible, horrible game. :/
Come on, why would this many people play a game if it was that bad. Try playing it for a while it actually becomes quite addicting.
On July 27 2011 17:29 Johnny Business wrote: The reason I prefer LoL over HoN is that while playing HoN at a high level was so serious and you couldn't make a single mistake. Playing LoL is so casual and easy. Especially if you play with friends.
It's also the exact reason why I prefer HoN over LoL and why LoL has little potential as a spectator eSport
On July 27 2011 13:23 Alaron wrote: Im 2 levels short of 30 in LoL and ive played over 250 games. No one uses fortify due to the ridic cooldown and everyone using nothing but flash. Runes are nowhere near as powerful as neutral buffs simply because there is only one every 2 minutes. Bushes are nowhere near the level of juking you see in DotA/HoN with tangos. I can guarantee you if I spent the time to play LoL, I could easily get top tier and I'm nowhere near skilled enough to be a top DotA/HoN player. (1700-1800 MMR). And I love how you think runes do not matter. AN entire crit rune page gives around 20% passive crit. FROM RUNES, on any hero. Flat dodge seals give .75% dodge PER SEAL. It really does matter, sorry to say. No TP's at all its a very clunky unaction oriented version of DotA.
PS: If you can tell me how to check my solo ELO i'm sure its decent. I play lvl 30's with full rune pages when I do play.
I hit 30 in about 150 wins, 65 losses, i guess by your standards i am the league of legends guru. ELO unranked is irrelevent, since the inflation of premades to solo'ers
I would really wish, to challange you to start ranked games, Where your map awareness, champion controll, split second decisionmaking, and most importantly Leadership will win you games.
Any 1600+ elo ranked player can tell you that you know when you belong in the 1600 elo range, you will simply be there. Things such as leavers/disconnecters shouldnt stop you from winning, people at the lower leveled range wont even know how to secure victories properly (think of lower leveled starcraft)
You simply think because its a easier game, it should have a lower skill ceiling. Its not, Enjoy playing the many Meta's once you get higher ranked (meta's double solo 1 Jungler, Meet either double jungle, level 4 jungler into triple solo lanes, Double jungle early baron) Yes, i understand a full crit page gives 20% crit, but thats not to say it requires time invested to be fully better than the other guy, T1 Runes gets you close enough and your skill > theirs will win the game.
Im sorry bro, just because you are head of your practice league does not mean you can validate the game yet.
On July 27 2011 17:29 Johnny Business wrote: The reason I prefer LoL over HoN is that while playing HoN at a high level was so serious and you couldn't make a single mistake. Playing LoL is so casual and easy. Especially if you play with friends.
It's also the exact reason why I prefer HoN over LoL and why LoL has little potential as a spectator eSport
Riding a unicycle is alot harder than a bike, Doesn't mean that bike races will replaced with the more hardcore, unforgiving unicycle.
Bike riding is so casual, even 7 year olds ride bikes AND they play games like farmville
from some1 that played lol(tsm AD carry) and dota(played dota in sg against teams such like zenith and sk) in competitive settings lol has the depth and mechanical skills and flair to become a very BIG esport maybe even bigger than sc2
On July 27 2011 17:37 locodoco wrote: from some1 that played lol(tsm AD carry) and dota(played dota in sg against teams such like zenith and sk) in competitive settings lol has the depth and mechanical skills and flair to become a very BIG esport maybe even bigger than sc2
Oh get out Are you really locodoco? Your soo good bro. You should arrange a game with some TSM members vs some of the level 15-30's who keep bashing this game calling it easy.
On July 27 2011 17:37 locodoco wrote: from some1 that played lol(tsm AD carry) and dota(played dota in sg against teams such like zenith and sk) in competitive settings lol has the depth and mechanical skills and flair to become a very BIG esport maybe even bigger than sc2
so agree. people really underestimate LoL in just about everything.
On July 27 2011 17:37 locodoco wrote: from some1 that played lol(tsm AD carry) and dota(played dota in sg against teams such like zenith and sk) in competitive settings lol has the depth and mechanical skills and flair to become a very BIG esport maybe even bigger than sc2
Oh get out Are you really locodoco? Your soo good bro. You should arrange a game with some TSM members vs some of the level 15-30's who keep bashing this game calling it easy.
LoL is an easier game to play when compared to other games in its genre.
This point is entirely irrefutable. That aside the high level play in LoL is still going to be leagues above some guys just starting out. There is depth to the game after all...this is also irrefutable.
Not sure what your point is. Nobody really calls LoL easy until you talk about it in relation to other games in its genre. Yes LoL has a lot of depth and a fairly high skill ceiling. People so defensive these days.
What is so great about it? I downloaded it and played a bit, it just feels very repetitive and easy overall. I`m not trolling, just want to know if there is more to it than it seems.
On July 27 2011 17:37 locodoco wrote: from some1 that played lol(tsm AD carry) and dota(played dota in sg against teams such like zenith and sk) in competitive settings lol has the depth and mechanical skills and flair to become a very BIG esport maybe even bigger than sc2
Oh get out Are you really locodoco? Your soo good bro. You should arrange a game with some TSM members vs some of the level 15-30's who keep bashing this game calling it easy.
LoL is an easier game to play when compared to other games in its genre.
This point is entirely irrefutable. That aside the high level play in LoL is still going to be leagues above some guys just starting out. There is depth to the game after all...this is also irrefutable.
Not sure what your point is. Nobody really calls LoL easy until you talk about it in relation to other games in its genre. Yes LoL has a lot of depth and a fairly high skill ceiling. People so defensive these days.
Its game design compensated for game design. The thing is, you cant compare skill caps for Any MOBA games to League of legends, You gain a different mindset of things. Im a tad be defensive (and kinda posting alot in this thread) because this should be an appreciation of a upcoming gaming company's growth, and you can never avoid the hon/dota players that come in and pick fights over these stupid issues.
On July 27 2011 17:57 TerdToss wrote: Most people who play LoL have never tired HoN, just saying.
Unless you are talking to someone specifically, this is exactly the posts that starts the flamewars in these threads. Hell even the notice for the thread states: Do not turn this into a (insert game here) vs. LoL argument. It's about LoL and Riot's success, which is great for ESPORTS. - Jibba
On July 27 2011 17:57 Elementsu wrote: What is so great about it? I downloaded it and played a bit, it just feels very repetitive and easy overall. I`m not trolling, just want to know if there is more to it than it seems.
Everyone has different tastes, cant force you to play it. If its not your tea then just leave it at that. I think of my friends on this issue, I know my friend who plays fighting games/Xbox shooters (no offense) would never play a game like this, i actually never urged them to try LoL. Your motivation should be to find something in the game you like, and play to enjoy it for that reason, Some people love straight competitive games, and may like shooting/fighting/ and RTS. Alot of people enjoy (i didnt say play) league of legends for the lore around it, You can try getting into that if it sounds appealing to you.
On July 27 2011 13:23 Alaron wrote: Im 2 levels short of 30 in LoL and ive played over 250 games. No one uses fortify due to the ridic cooldown and everyone using nothing but flash. Runes are nowhere near as powerful as neutral buffs simply because there is only one every 2 minutes. Bushes are nowhere near the level of juking you see in DotA/HoN with tangos. I can guarantee you if I spent the time to play LoL, I could easily get top tier and I'm nowhere near skilled enough to be a top DotA/HoN player. (1700-1800 MMR). And I love how you think runes do not matter. AN entire crit rune page gives around 20% passive crit. FROM RUNES, on any hero. Flat dodge seals give .75% dodge PER SEAL. It really does matter, sorry to say. No TP's at all its a very clunky unaction oriented version of DotA.
PS: If you can tell me how to check my solo ELO i'm sure its decent. I play lvl 30's with full rune pages when I do play.
I hit 30 in about 150 wins, 65 losses, i guess by your standards i am the league of legends guru. ELO unranked is irrelevent, since the inflation of premades to solo'ers
I would really wish, to challange you to start ranked games, Where your map awareness, champion controll, split second decisionmaking, and most importantly Leadership will win you games.
Any 1600+ elo ranked player can tell you that you know when you belong in the 1600 elo range, you will simply be there. Things such as leavers/disconnecters shouldnt stop you from winning, people at the lower leveled range wont even know how to secure victories properly (think of lower leveled starcraft)
You simply think because its a easier game, it should have a lower skill ceiling. Its not, Enjoy playing the many Meta's once you get higher ranked (meta's double solo 1 Jungler, Meet either double jungle, level 4 jungler into triple solo lanes, Double jungle early baron) Yes, i understand a full crit page gives 20% crit, but thats not to say it requires time invested to be fully better than the other guy, T1 Runes gets you close enough and your skill > theirs will win the game.
Im sorry bro, just because you are head of your practice league does not mean you can validate the game yet.
On July 27 2011 17:29 Johnny Business wrote: The reason I prefer LoL over HoN is that while playing HoN at a high level was so serious and you couldn't make a single mistake. Playing LoL is so casual and easy. Especially if you play with friends.
It's also the exact reason why I prefer HoN over LoL and why LoL has little potential as a spectator eSport
Riding a unicycle is alot harder than a bike, Doesn't mean that bike races will replaced with the more hardcore, unforgiving unicycle.
Bike riding is so casual, even 7 year olds ride bikes AND they play games like farmville
Are you kidding me? Your still riding it being a harder game. With a higher skill ceiling. If you are serious god help you or you haven't touched DotA/HoN. Easy mode DotA was never considered difficult because it removes all the skillful parts of DotA. Carries ran rampant and any int hero was a waste of a pick. Im really not interested in grinding 30 more games to hit 30 in LoL just so I can have to grind a ton more to buy runes to be competitive. HoN has it all right there and ready to go. That is why it is and always will be a much better eSport.
EDIT: Also to the post above me its a double edged sword, LoL players do the exact same thing. LoL will never be as competitive as a real DotA clone. Simply because of fundamentals. I never said it wasn't a great game to play casually. I play it as i've said. But I will never care about rating or anything of the sort in that game unless I don't have to grind/pay money for it.
It's a fun game, a nice game to play every once in a while. I just want to know what's going to happen to those numbers when DOTA2 comes out. Up or down, we shall see.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
Are you kidding me? Your still riding it being a harder game. With a higher skill ceiling.
I never said harder, You claim dota is a harder game, Mechanically yes, Fundamentally, You cant respond to that. Nonstop this thread bashes this game, calling it a game with little or no skill ceiling with little or no support for your arguments. I play dota yes, before you make judgements, mechanically it is harder. Broodwar is harder for me too, but im tired of arguing a two game comparisons that are in the same genre where people who play league of legends consider it to be outside the standard MOBA genre/mechanics.
Im not gonna get into this, or respond to anything after these last comment since its futile for both our points.
Just if you have any hate, concerns of league of legends being so inferior, You should try keeping it in your Dota/Hon thread so We can have a League of legends appreciation thread in peace. This is like a fanclub post and your belittling riots achievement.
Stop saying "league of legends is a great piece of casual shit oh and by the way its still shit for these reasons i dare anybody to argue these reasons why its not shit"
I have nothing against RIOTs achievement. It needs to be posted here because LoL should not get the competitive attention it is getting mainly because there are much more interesting games to spectators out there. A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game. HOW IS THAT A BASELESS POINT?
EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
People who think that all esports are about pure skill are dumb. Just because it has a lower skill ceiling doesn't mean teamwork and strategy is taken out. THE BEST TEAMS WILL WIN WITH STRATEGY AND TEAMWORK. Which is NEVER EVER capped by anything such as a "skill ceiling". Such a stupid word you can never be fully capped. Can always get smarter and better no matter what.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Done posting here.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG]
if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it
On July 27 2011 18:20 Alaron wrote: I have nothing against RIOTs achievement. It needs to be posted here because LoL should not get the competitive attention it is getting mainly because there are much more interesting games to spectators out there. A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game. HOW IS THAT A BASELESS POINT?
EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game.
skill over time played? if ur talking about runes and levels............ /facepalm -.-;;
On July 27 2011 18:20 Alaron wrote: I have nothing against RIOTs achievement. It needs to be posted here because LoL should not get the competitive attention it is getting mainly because there are much more interesting games to spectators out there. A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game. HOW IS THAT A BASELESS POINT?
EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game.
skill over time played? if ur talking about runes and levels............ /facepalm -.-;;
Runes. 20% passive crit on any hero at the START of the game no items required. Heroes. I need to buy every hero I want to play AND buy runes just for that hero.
How in the world is that a facepalm?
Do I need to find the post somewhere on the interwebs that was posted on the LoL forums that states you NEED to play something like 9000 games JUST to afford every hero(0 runes)?
On July 27 2011 13:23 Alaron wrote: Im 2 levels short of 30 in LoL and ive played over 250 games. No one uses fortify due to the ridic cooldown and everyone using nothing but flash. Runes are nowhere near as powerful as neutral buffs simply because there is only one every 2 minutes. Bushes are nowhere near the level of juking you see in DotA/HoN with tangos. I can guarantee you if I spent the time to play LoL, I could easily get top tier and I'm nowhere near skilled enough to be a top DotA/HoN player. (1700-1800 MMR). And I love how you think runes do not matter. AN entire crit rune page gives around 20% passive crit. FROM RUNES, on any hero. Flat dodge seals give .75% dodge PER SEAL. It really does matter, sorry to say. No TP's at all its a very clunky unaction oriented version of DotA.
PS: If you can tell me how to check my solo ELO i'm sure its decent. I play lvl 30's with full rune pages when I do play.
I hit 30 in about 150 wins, 65 losses, i guess by your standards i am the league of legends guru. ELO unranked is irrelevent, since the inflation of premades to solo'ers
I would really wish, to challange you to start ranked games, Where your map awareness, champion controll, split second decisionmaking, and most importantly Leadership will win you games.
Any 1600+ elo ranked player can tell you that you know when you belong in the 1600 elo range, you will simply be there. Things such as leavers/disconnecters shouldnt stop you from winning, people at the lower leveled range wont even know how to secure victories properly (think of lower leveled starcraft)
You simply think because its a easier game, it should have a lower skill ceiling. Its not, Enjoy playing the many Meta's once you get higher ranked (meta's double solo 1 Jungler, Meet either double jungle, level 4 jungler into triple solo lanes, Double jungle early baron) Yes, i understand a full crit page gives 20% crit, but thats not to say it requires time invested to be fully better than the other guy, T1 Runes gets you close enough and your skill > theirs will win the game.
Im sorry bro, just because you are head of your practice league does not mean you can validate the game yet.
On July 27 2011 17:32 Scarecrow wrote:
On July 27 2011 17:29 Johnny Business wrote: The reason I prefer LoL over HoN is that while playing HoN at a high level was so serious and you couldn't make a single mistake. Playing LoL is so casual and easy. Especially if you play with friends.
It's also the exact reason why I prefer HoN over LoL and why LoL has little potential as a spectator eSport
Riding a unicycle is alot harder than a bike, Doesn't mean that bike races will replaced with the more hardcore, unforgiving unicycle.
Bike riding is so casual, even 7 year olds ride bikes AND they play games like farmville
Are you kidding me? Your still riding it being a harder game. With a higher skill ceiling. If you are serious god help you or you haven't touched DotA/HoN. Easy mode DotA was never considered difficult because it removes all the skillful parts of DotA. Carries ran rampant and any int hero was a waste of a pick. Im really not interested in grinding 30 more games to hit 30 in LoL just so I can have to grind a ton more to buy runes to be competitive. HoN has it all right there and ready to go. That is why it is and always will be a much better eSport.
EDIT: Also to the post above me its a double edged sword, LoL players do the exact same thing. LoL will never be as competitive as a real DotA clone. Simply because of fundamentals. I never said it wasn't a great game to play casually. I play it as i've said. But I will never care about rating or anything of the sort in that game unless I don't have to grind/pay money for it.
Yeah, I was a pretty high ranking LoL and HoN player(still am). Page 5 of the 5x5 solo ladder for LoL and 1800+ rating in HoN and I`d have to agree that HoN definitely is way harder. IMO if you take the HoN game and put RIOT on it instead of S2games, that would make for one sick game. Can`t wait for DOTA2.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Done posting here.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG]
if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it
Chu switched to LoL because he wants to be a professional gamer (and he should) and he just didn`t see that happening in HoN, mostly because how bad S2games sucks. More money in LoL was the only reason.
You don't need every single hero and rune to be competetive. One full runepage is like 14k ip and that's usually enough to play every "class" of heroes. One ap page, one ad page etc.
And I can tell you that high level (1900) HoN is as hard as high level LoL just different.
On July 27 2011 18:20 Alaron wrote: I have nothing against RIOTs achievement. It needs to be posted here because LoL should not get the competitive attention it is getting mainly because there are much more interesting games to spectators out there. A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game. HOW IS THAT A BASELESS POINT?
EDIT: Also the amount of things taken into effect over dota within the game are much higher than LoL. You need a much stronger foundation to build on because of the extra mechanics required to succeed in the game.
skill over time played? if ur talking about runes and levels............ /facepalm -.-;;
Runes. 20% passive crit on any hero at the START of the game no items required. Heroes. I need to buy every hero I want to play AND buy runes just for that hero.
How in the world is that a facepalm?
Do I need to find the post somewhere on the interwebs that was posted on the LoL forums that states you NEED to play something like 9000 games JUST to afford every hero(0 runes)?
ur saying that lol rewards time played over skill that applies to the people below level 30 playing vs level 30 people which only happens in normals so ur right if u just started playing lol it rewards time played over skill oh wait it doesnt cuz u only get matched vs people that are the same level as u unless u purposely request at the very start of making ur account to match people higher leveled than u so at the very lowest skill level league of legends rewards time played over skill and by some chance ur a lol prodigy and u can play at tournament levels even before u hit level 30 with a set of runes u shouldnt be complaining about that but oh wait lol has a seperate tourney client for serious games with everything unlocked
tl dr : lol rewards time played over skill at the very very very lowest level of play,unless u play at that level its not really a viable arguement
I played SOTIS (apparently it is the SC2 version of LoL) with friends a few times and it was mindnumbingly boring. I don't understand how so many people enjoy this.
However, this brings a massive influx of people to the competitive side of gaming, which is incredible and hopefully another step on the way to competitive gaming (or at least gaming in general) becoming socially acceptable, and maybe even a little mainstream.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Done posting here.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG]
if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it
Chu switched to LoL because he wants to be a professional gamer (and he should) and he just didn`t see that happening in HoN, mostly because how bad S2games sucks. More money in LoL was the only reason.
i personally talked to chu and that's not what he said he said hon was getting stale and chu isnt making a cent in lol atm,and it looks like his still playing lol over hon
One of the main reasons LoL has such success is that it is one of very few games which does f2p with microtransactions right. They don't sell power, they sell convenience(less time investment, extra rune pages) and vanity (skins). You never feel forced to buy anything, because you can get everything by playing. A point that most f2p-games miss.
I have to wonder about the people who say the system is bad, because they cannot have every champion. Sure compared to HoN a character costs a lot more, but why even have all characters? In LoL you'll only buy champions you like and you ones you haven't played yet you can try out for free after a few weeks and then decide if you like them. Even if you were to own all characters, there are now nearly 80, with an average of 30min per game, that's 40 hours just to play everyone once. Personally I only own 14 champions, but have tried nearly everyone. In HoN you'll get all heroes, but you won't play many of them more than once because you don't like them.
Also regarding all the flames that LoL is so incredibly casual, imbalanced and easy. I'd like to see a showmatch between five of those people and a LoL-proteam. Maybe even the odds a bit by letting the challengers choose any champion they want and dictating which champs the pros play. Let's see how this would turn out.
Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny.
To the post above.
9k games to unlock just the heroes.
Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games.
EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at.
". A game that rewards skill over time played should be THE competitive game"
99% of the skill in 99% of the games & sports = related to "time played" and training, and not "granted from God talent". LoL is mechanically easier than DotA ? Sure. Is that a bad thing ? Why would it be ? Gives much more room for teamplay and actualy thinking. What is amazingly annoying in DotA is that someone good at last hitting (and who picks a hero good at it, lololol razor / prenerf corrupted disciple) literally wins the game just for that reason in quite a lot of occurences. The "runes are imbalanced" argument is also ridiculous. EVERYBODY has them if they bother being optimal at lvl 30. Not all of them, granted, unless they play much, but way enough to pick your choices. Runes are also GREAT personalisation and add even more depth / possibilities, help vary item builds and team compositions... Also, just FYI, there is a "tournament" realm for tournament games where EVERY PLAYER HAS EVERY HERO AND RUNES FOR FREE.
And every people saying "if I bothered I'd be #1 LoL player" is completely mistaken and/or trolling, it's like people who say that in golf for instance. Does it require any physical prowess ? Not really. Is it about "time played" more than anything ? Yes, definitely. Is that an unskilled game with a low skill cap ? Absolutely not. NO ONE is anywhere near LoL's skillcap even at top ELO. NO ONE. As far as the games as a whole go, it's much more comparable to real "popular" team sports than popular "e-Sports" (starcraft, quake...). There is less "zomg" action going on all the time, it's a LOT about positioning, general awareness, choices (football manager = picks :D) and experience of who can do what. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying LoL is the ultimate esport or whatever. Several things are obviously lacking, and nothing will ever beat Quake 3 / Wolfenstein Enemy Territory in my book (not even brood war).
On July 27 2011 18:44 Alaron wrote: Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny.
To the post above.
9k games to unlock just the heroes.
Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games.
EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at.
Done here don't bother quoting me.
what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Yea I think it's sad that DotA players keep denying LoL's legitimacy.
Man, I read the comment section on IGN about an eSports Starcraft 2 article and the comments were SO fucking retarded.
And now I come to this thread and...well fucking done. I cannot believe how fucking stupid some of you are and your "arguments".
NotJack, why would you even make that post? There is literally 0 effort in that piece and just obvious flamebait. "herp derp let me go to the last page and post a really stupid comment herp derp."
If you're going to say something like that, then how about do it in a reasonable manner? How about explaining why you think that and how about not insulting the people that have a forum on TL dedicated to LoL?
I hope the mods have a field day in this thread because such poor quality posts are not allowed on this site. If you want to type stupid, shallow comments then go to IGN or Gamespot and make yourself at home with the rabid console war fanboys.
edit: apologies if this is a bit loaded but the comments on http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184319p1.html got me riled up (I am bakabear on there) last night and now I see such poor and ignorant posts on here too...just pisses me off...
On July 27 2011 19:08 ToT)OjKa( wrote: Man, I read the comment section on IGN about an eSports Starcraft 2 article and the comments were SO fucking retarded.
And now I come to this thread and...well fucking done. I cannot believe how fucking stupid some of you are and your "arguments".
NotJack, why would you even make that post? There is literally 0 effort in that piece and just obvious flamebait. "herp derp let me go to the last page and post a really stupid comment herp derp."
If you're going to say something like that, then how about do it in a reasonable manner? How about explaining why you think that and how about not insulting the people that have a forum on TL dedicated to LoL?
I hope the mods have a field day in this thread because such poor quality posts are not allowed on this site. If you want to type stupid, shallow comments then go to IGN or Gamespot and make yourself at home with the rabid console war fanboys.
edit: apologies if this is a bit loaded but the comments on http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/118/1184319p1.html got me riled up (I am bakabear on there) last night and now I see such poor and ignorant posts on here too...just pisses me off...
I'm not saying that to get people mad, it just breaks my heart how much things have changed.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Done posting here.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG]
if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it
I don't agree with anything you're saying.
I don't think it has a "different skill cap", I think it's pretty much obviously a lower skill ceiling and it is fundamentally an easier game, it's not just a mechanical difference, DotA/HoN are genuinely more punishing and a system like denies pits players in a lane actively against each other making the laning phase more active and demanding in terms of focus.
All the things you mentioned for LoL's skill cap actually exist on DotA and HoN as well, and at the top level of play they exist in pretty much the same amount as LoL. Decision making, teamwork, pre-game preparation, jungle ganks, end game strats...?
Are you serious? Those are your higher skill cap choices for LoL. Decision making exists in equal amounts in both games, teamwork exists in equal amounts in both games at the high level of play, pre-game preparation is equally importation(minus games having the possibility to almost be decided at champion selection in LoL more often), jungle ganking is skill between jungle and rune control, end game strats exist equally in both games. All of these things you cite exist in HoN and DotA as well, and then there's all the stuff it has on top of that.
On July 27 2011 18:44 Alaron wrote: Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny.
To the post above.
9k games to unlock just the heroes.
Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games.
EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at.
Done here don't bother quoting me.
what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks
I've talked about the nature of micro-transactions at length earlier, but quite simply there is no middle ground, it's great for mass market appeal but it's not for everyone because you genuinely do have to choose between spending copious amounts of time keeping up with unlocks or spending massive amounts of money to get what you want. After spending 35 dollars and playing a ridiculous amount of games regularly, I would still find myself saving up for champions and I don't really like having to do that.
This isn't really relevant to competitive play though, it's more of a personal note.
On July 27 2011 01:22 Microchaton wrote: These numbers (and the ginormous growth of Riot in a few months) and the solid viewers numbers of a lot of streams probably justify it's addition in several big LAN events (lastly IEM and MLG).
It doesn't justify anything. For comparison, Wii Sports sold around 76.76 Millions units worldwide, and considering it's not account based there are probably twice as much players - whereas Riot certainly doesn't exclude banned accounts and multiple accounts. Do we want to see Wii Sports in LAN ? I sure wouldn't.
But LoL is certainly a sponsor's dream : Casual players (the average player doesn't play each day) ready to buy content at a fairly high price on a regular basis. What could a company want more from a game ? That's why LoL is in LAN event with huge corporate backup.
EDIT : Oh and as a last comparison, HoN has HALF its playerbase playing EACH day of the week. And it has been so since the beginning of 2011. LoL has less than 10% (according to the OP's numbers)
Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
There is. Invite 500 people to play or something like that and you get all the contents in the game unlocked. Personally I think it's a smart model. Sure it's irritating wanting to play all the champions and not being able to, but it's: frustration -> high reward what makes you want to keep playing. I want to be able to say: Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions out of IP without having to spend a single dollar.
On July 27 2011 01:41 Augury wrote: MOBA genre is huge + solid free to play game + outstanding RP/IP system
League of Legends is missing a lot of features like replays, etc.., but they got the basics right. I also think that the MOBA genre was made for free to play. The IP/RP system provides the game with a great feel of progression, unlike in Sc2 or DOTA, you feel like you're accomplishing something with every game. The steady flow of new champions ensures that you'll always have something to work towards. It's a great game that really got it right when designed the ladder system and introducing new players, not surprised with the amount of success.
I actually despise the IP/RP system and the business model in general, but once again it's made for mass market appeal and ease of access. This business model is one of the few things that could put me off Dota 2, here's to hoping there's an affordable option to just buy the whole roster there.
There is. Invite 500 people to play or something like that and you get all the contents in the game unlocked. Personally I think it's a smart model. Sure it's irritating wanting to play all the champions and not being able to, but it's: frustration -> high reward what makes you want to keep playing. I want to be able to say: Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions out of IP without having to spend a single dollar.
That's not an actual viable option, honestly... I'm talking about paying a standard price like $60. Getting 500 people to play the game isn't something I consider a viable alternative.
As for it being rewarding, if the design was sufficient then mastering a champion would be it's own reward, not something to force me to sit there and grind out games so I can go, "Yes, I unlocked something new". After a while, that model gets extremely exhausting to me, it just doesn't work for me and I'm not interested in spending 3000 hours just to say, "Fuck you Riot, I got all your champions without spending a dollar". I'd rather just pay $30-60 and enjoy whatever number of hours I play.
On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote: Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that.
I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP.
With Dota2 on the horizon and HoN probably going F2P i see no future for LoL... Maybe it wont be dead tomorrow but in the long run theres no chance it will survive against it competitors!
On July 27 2011 20:42 Johnny Business wrote: I don't see dota 2 competing with a free to play game. Maybe LoL gets less players but it's going to survive trust me.
Also HoN going F2P no way.
Theres a huge chance Dota2 will be F2P aswell. Steam has introduced F2P features just recently.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Done posting here.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
zzz its funny how people that never played said games at the highest levels call it "easy" "low skill cap" hon has a higher skill cap? not according to chu8(just some noob that topped the hon ladder for like forever) and his team(yoda,eddie,fuji) who all switched over to lol cuz hon was getting "stale" every single one of them agree'd to lol and hon having "diffrent skill cap" hon has higher mechanical skill cap such as denying,creep wave pulling and pushing,even higher importance on last hit etc lol has as higher skill cap in decision making,teamwork,pre game prep,jungle gank timings,end game strats but thats k,im pretty sure u played hon at a higher level than team [EG]
if u havent played lol at atleast say 1800 elo plz dont act like u understand the game or u know what? go on say hon or dota has higher skill cap and lol is just for casuals but do realize for there to be a competitive scene there needs to be a casual scene and for the game to be competitive and viable as a esport it needs to have a skill gap between the millions and millions of people that play it and the top few that really understand the game and dedicate their time and effort to it
I don't agree with anything you're saying.
I don't think it has a "different skill cap", I think it's pretty much obviously a lower skill ceiling and it is fundamentally an easier game, it's not just a mechanical difference, DotA/HoN are genuinely more punishing and a system like denies pits players in a lane actively against each other making the laning phase more active and demanding in terms of focus.
All the things you mentioned for LoL's skill cap actually exist on DotA and HoN as well, and at the top level of play they exist in pretty much the same amount as LoL. Decision making, teamwork, pre-game preparation, jungle ganks, end game strats...?
Are you serious? Those are your higher skill cap choices for LoL. Decision making exists in equal amounts in both games, teamwork exists in equal amounts in both games at the high level of play, pre-game preparation is equally importation(minus games having the possibility to almost be decided at champion selection in LoL more often), jungle ganking is skill between jungle and rune control, end game strats exist equally in both games. All of these things you cite exist in HoN and DotA as well, and then there's all the stuff it has on top of that.
On July 27 2011 18:44 Alaron wrote: Your failing to get my point. You cannot have what you want to play without spending a ridiculous amount of time inside the game or shelling out money. Did you forget you also need to buy the runes to play the character? How is that not time rewarding. I can fully page out 1 6300 hero by the time I reach level 30. Is that fair in your mind? W/E not bothering with this anymore LoL players are so stubborn its funny.
To the post above.
9k games to unlock just the heroes.
Sounds pretty sick and rewarding. That is totally what you should do. Play those 9000 games.
EDIT: Also LoL is the least skilled MOBA in existence. That does make it an easier game and does require less of everything to be good at.
Done here don't bother quoting me.
what a horrible game u have to either spend time on it or spend money to get what u want gg lol sucks
I've talked about the nature of micro-transactions at length earlier, but quite simply there is no middle ground, it's great for mass market appeal but it's not for everyone because you genuinely do have to choose between spending copious amounts of time keeping up with unlocks or spending massive amounts of money to get what you want. After spending 35 dollars and playing a ridiculous amount of games regularly, I would still find myself saving up for champions and I don't really like having to do that.
This isn't really relevant to competitive play though, it's more of a personal note.
having a higher skill cap doesnt mean having more stuff such as denying or losing gold on death and the things i mentioned for lol such as endgame strat of course isnt exclusive to lol but its genuinely harder to do in lol end game in dota/hon? there is none either u win teamfights midgame and get inhibs and establish mapcontrol and snowball or u lose cuz the opposing team does that.
On July 27 2011 18:09 locodoco wrote: lol will never be competitive? 10~15 offline events coming up next year all just "casual" lan meets ups right?
Not even going to continue bothering myself with explaining this. Every game is competitive. LoL should not lead the genre, it is bad for the genre because it is the easiest and lowest skill ceiling among the others. It is nowhere near as entertaining to a spectator.
Congrats to RIOT. You made a successful free micro transaction game.
LoL does not have a low skill ceiling. All it does is provide newer players (i.e every HoN/DotA player who has tried LoL) with a simplified understanding of the game. If you got rid of your arrogant mindset and had actually bothered to get to level 30 and played ranked matches (especially premades), you'd learn that there's more aspects to LoL that makes it completely different from DotA/HoN and how much teamwork and coordination is required to win.
LoL is pretty much the one of (if not) the BEST entertainment to a spectator, as pretty much every single player that plays LoL (similar to SC) knows how the game works and can appreciate all those moments where a player or team makes an outstanding decisions or reaction, or the team coordination that comes with every single piece of action in the game.
At top level of play, the individual skills and understanding of the game for each player is so similar that laning phase is not as important and every game-changing action in the game is a result of team coordination to set-up and execute.
On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote: Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that.
I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP.
On July 27 2011 20:12 Telcontar wrote: Just downloaded it yesterday and gave it a whirl. It is pretty addictive and I had a lot of fun playing but it seems a little daunting to get really into with the store system. How hard will you have to grind if you're not willing to spend any money on it? I guess I should just play casually at the lower levels.
By Lvl 30 you'll have earned about 25-30k IP (depends on how many days you actually take due to the first win of the day bonus and how many losses you had). Getting two basic rune pages(for physical and mage type champs) will cost you about 18k IP, so you can get a couple of champions on top of that.
I'd say play a few games with the free champs each week and if you really like playing one of them, consider buying him/her. Also don't bother with runes until Lvl 20, anything below Tier 3 is a waste of IP.
Thanks for the advice! It's much appreciated.
Don't think about the grind to the next champion too much and focus on the enjoyment of the game. There are times where I've played so much (and sometimes don't feel like buying anything) that I just ended up banking quite a lot of IP.
ive been curious.. is dota2 going to be played in sc2's custom games? if so it could bring a new crowd of people into the starcraft community. With the success of LoL its all the more reason why blizzard (if blizzard is even making dota2? im kind of confused) needs to make sure dota 2 is legit.
in the meantime i am just glad LoL is keeping people off the consoles and on the computers where they belong.
You got it wrong eVolve, Dota2 is made by valve and is a completely independant game (tho a nearly 100% port of the original DotA). "Blizzard Dota" (don't remember the name they gave it) will be a SC2 custom map and has nothing to do with Dota2.
A lot of people making big claims about a more complicated late game in LoL without going into any depth. You do know Chu happily states HoN is the better game right? I've played with EG and even at that level it's still slow motion easy mode ricing with lazy ganks all involving flash, and a late game similiar to HoN except with much easier abilities and every hero strong like it's casual mode (although I guess that pretty much is LoL).
If you want to prove these views wrong I've been shown from players better than you, you have to go in depth and actually explain your claims.
Why I don't think LoL will be a good esports game. It suffers the same thing Street Fighter suffers from, it's simply too fast. Yes the observers can see whats going on around the map, however the main problem is that team battles are too fast, and that the audience can't catch the nuances of the battle. Also the battle happens to fast for the commentators to actually commentate. Unlike SC2 where actions are fairly easy to notice (feedbacks/snipes/fungals/positioning/ so on), its also slow enough to where commentators can commentate on a lot of the deliberate action of the players.
Isn't Streetfighter the most (at least one of the most) successfull fighter games in terms of competition\e-sports. And also one of the most successful games from all genres in terms of e-sports\competition? People saying LoL can't be an "'e-sports" for this and that reason are already werong. It is showing bigger numbers than pretty much any other game out there at the moment (at least in the west (?)) and at the end of the day, that is what truly matters, how many people are interested in watching it.
As I see it LoL has a few problems for becoming an E-sports. In the same way with WoW, its very hard to understand whats going on without playing the game yourself. Now this is to some extent true with starcraft 2 too, but not to as big of a degree, that being said most people who are likely to watch LoL either play LoL, or have played hon\dota so its not that big of a problem.
The game itself is lacking a lot of things. Players can't really hos tournaments themselves since there is no ingame spectator mode currently (although in the works.) Replays are also lacking. Also, I don't know how to fix this or whatever but Currently, nobody at high level plays the match making for team ladders ( 5v5) they pretty much only play soloqueue, and sometimes practice 5v5 in skirmishes, but pretty much all the top teams practice very little 5v5. This is mainly because 5v5 queues are so long (Because so few teams are queueing) so i don't know how to fix this.
Another thing that can't really be fixed but is sort of a problem for growing an e-sports, is that this is a 5v5 (or 3v3, but 5v5 is the more popular\competetive format) game. So in terms of prize money, everything is 5 times less\split by 5, and in terms of traveling expenses etc etc everything is 5 times larger.
Anyway I am pretty tired of people complaining about low skillcap and easymode. Even looking at the top tier players they still make a lot of obvious mistakes, so they are obviously not skill capped. And if they are just bad then just get together 4 non bad people and reach the so easy to reach skillcap and go collect some free prize money.
As with most video games more complicated than Tic Tac Toe, no human will EVER, EVER. <- Ever. be skillcapped in LoL. Even if people still play LoL competetivly 50 years from now, a person who has spent 10 hours a day practicing hardcore LoL every day for 50 years, will still have room for improvement. Being skillcapped would mean never making a mistake, being able to perfectly calculate everyones HP\how much damage your and their abiltiies do (including damage reductions) and never mistake your potential damage output versus there, never miss a creep, never get into a bad position, list goes on, and it will never be achieved by a human.
Last but not least balance is not a problem in LoL. The Pick/Ban is reasoanbly fair for both teams, if you pick a bad setup against the opposing team then that is your own fault.
On July 27 2011 21:58 eVolvE342 wrote: ive been curious.. is dota2 going to be played in sc2's custom games? if so it could bring a new crowd of people into the starcraft community. With the success of LoL its all the more reason why blizzard (if blizzard is even making dota2? im kind of confused) needs to make sure dota 2 is legit.
DOTA 2 is made by Valve and is completely unrelated to Blizzard, so no. It will be on steam though.
[QUOTE]On July 27 2011 22:21 Earll wrote: [QUOTE]On July 27 2011 03:37 wei2coolman wrote:
As with most video games more complicated than Tic Tac Toe, no human will EVER, EVER. <- Ever. be skillcapped in LoL. Even if people still play LoL competetivly 50 years from now, a person who has spent 10 hours a day practicing hardcore LoL every day for 50 years, will still have room for improvement. Being skillcapped would mean never making a mistake, being able to perfectly calculate everyones HP\how much damage your and their abiltiies do (including damage reductions) and never mistake your potential damage output versus there, never miss a creep, never get into a bad position, list goes on, and it will never be achieved by a human.
[/QUOTE]
The fact that you think that's a good argument makes you impossible to be taken seriously. Once again no attempt at going in depth to explain why LoL lategame is so unique and skill based.
As with most video games more complicated than Tic Tac Toe, no human will EVER, EVER. <- Ever. be skillcapped in LoL. Even if people still play LoL competetivly 50 years from now, a person who has spent 10 hours a day practicing hardcore LoL every day for 50 years, will still have room for improvement. Being skillcapped would mean never making a mistake, being able to perfectly calculate everyones HP\how much damage your and their abiltiies do (including damage reductions) and never mistake your potential damage output versus there, never miss a creep, never get into a bad position, list goes on, and it will never be achieved by a human.
The fact that you think that's a good argument makes you impossible to be taken seriously. Once again no attempt at going in depth to explain why LoL lategame is so unique and skill based.
On July 27 2011 20:42 Johnny Business wrote: I don't see dota 2 competing with a free to play game. Maybe LoL gets less players but it's going to survive trust me.
Also HoN going F2P no way.
Theres a huge chance Dota2 will be F2P aswell. Steam has introduced F2P features just recently.
No, the fact that TF2 went F2P is a clear sign that Dota wont. F2P and Pay to Enjoy model will not work with Dota2.
I gave LoL a try after 3 years of DotA and 2 years of HoN and was nothing more than just plainly disappointed. The UI in game is extremely annoying. The claim auto-matchmaking takes x4 the time to find a game, because people keep leaving/reloading. The game takes minutes to load up. It looks like an extremely blurred out cartoon with lots of flashy effects to cover the lack of good animation. The map is extremely small. The addition of spammable skills for every hero to get last hits on creeps in early stages of the game, defeats the whole purpose of last hitting. The fact that difficulty of last hitting is lowered to the ground, the fact that you cant deny only worsens the early stages of the game when there is nothing else to do.
Its extremely sad that LoL is going further as an eSports purely because of their F2P system, when clearly HoN is a much more balanced, polished and competitive game. Its truly disappointing including the fact that many people still end up paying for the game....
The UI in game is extremely annoying. The claim auto-matchmaking takes x4 the time to find a game, because people keep leaving/reloading. The game takes minutes to load up. It looks like an extremely blurred out cartoon with lots of flashy effects to cover the lack of good animation. The map is extremely small. The addition of spammable skills for every hero to get last hits on creeps in early stages of the game, defeats the whole purpose of last hitting. The fact that difficulty of last hitting is lowered to the ground, the fact that you cant deny only worsens the early stages of the game when there is nothing else to do.
Its extremely sad that LoL is going further as an eSports purely because of their F2P system, when clearly HoN is a much more balanced, polished and competitive game. Its truly disappointing including the fact that many people still end up paying for the game....
When is the last time you played LoL? I have not had matchmaking take longer than maybe 1min in forever. Even those at top elo aren't waiting that long to get into a game anymore.
And claiming every hero has a spam skill to farm minions is retarded. There is a few champs you have skills/passives that allow them farm better than other but a vast majority don't.
And claiming game takes "minutes to load" would completely depend on your pc I am sure. Just testes it on my mid-grade pc and it took a whole 45s to load up and be able to join queue. And if you are referring to game loading after champ select that is up to the other players pc's as well.
On July 27 2011 20:42 Johnny Business wrote: I don't see dota 2 competing with a free to play game. Maybe LoL gets less players but it's going to survive trust me.
Also HoN going F2P no way.
Theres a huge chance Dota2 will be F2P aswell. Steam has introduced F2P features just recently.
Its extremely sad that LoL is going further as an eSports purely because of their F2P system, when clearly HoN is a much more balanced, polished and competitive game. Its truly disappointing including the fact that many people still end up paying for the game....
Are you serious? Have you even played the current HoN patch at 1900+ mmr? S2 fucked up so many things in HoN recently. I've been playing both games since closed beta and I have no idea what s2 was thinking with some design decisions and hero designs.
Clearly you've never played Vayne if you think everyone has a spam skill lulz. I guess you could count tumble but the CD is only short at max rank really. She's purely single target and does not clear waves as fast as say MF or Caitlyn.
I play both normals and ranked actively for a long time now and for the past few months, at least, queues are 90% around 1 minute or less.
LoL definitely has it's issues but it's really fun game which goes beyond the limitations of WC3 engine. I've played HoN in the closed beta as well as LoL and I can say that revamped version of DotA with same mechanic and few mixed up spells(from DotA heroes) doesn't qualify for a good game. I played dota since 5.84c and yeah, in my eyes it surpassed hon(a.k.a HoN wasn't an improvement on the genre at all).
LoL on the other hand, with it's cartooney graphics and original champions offered me lot's of fun and rejuvenated my excitement about the genre. Don't get me wrong, there are lot of things i despise about it, but the game offered something which was long in the biz yet completely new and exciting. And those numbers prove that.
Mechanical skills? Sure those are easy in LoL. Not worth mentioning. Team coordination? Maybe even with four random strangers? There goes your skill ceiling.
On July 27 2011 23:39 Two_DoWn wrote: LoL is to dota what sc2 is to BW. Physical skill isnt the determining factor, knowing what the best course of action in any given scenario is.
Insulting analogy. Once again, explain why team coordination is harder in LoL than HoN or Dota (here's a hint: it isn't)
Gratz for riot. I played this game during it's beta all the time (kinda sad that all those play time did not carry over when the game is released ) It's a pretty relaxing game to play if you have time to spare. The problem is I don't really have that much time to spare right now, so I guess I will stick with an action packed SCII (and pray that I won't get matched in a stalemate TvT )
On July 27 2011 23:39 Two_DoWn wrote: LoL is to dota what sc2 is to BW. Physical skill isnt the determining factor, knowing what the best course of action in any given scenario is.
Insulting analogy. Once again, explain why team coordination is harder in LoL than HoN or Dota (here's a hint: it isn't)
Decision making in SC2 isn't any harder than decision making in BW. Now how's that an insulting analogy?
Why can't people just stop and say,"Yay! There is a game that is really popular gaining lots of competitive popularity and bringing more people into the mindset of ESPORTS! This is great!"
I play LoL and I am glad to see that it is popular. I don't play HoN and don't have any interest in getting into it, but I am also glad that they are getting featured in NASL's season 2 in some way. Its all good.
On July 27 2011 23:52 NotJack wrote: Insulting doesn't mean wrong, although I'd argue decision making is more important in Dota even though mechanics is more important as well.
If you remove mechanical requirements that contribute to victories, then something else must take their place in order to separate the good players from bad.
On July 27 2011 23:52 NotJack wrote: Insulting doesn't mean wrong, although I'd argue decision making is more important in Dota even though mechanics is more important as well.
If you remove mechanical requirements that contribute to victories, then something else must take their place in order to separate the good players from bad.
Yes the sky is also blue. Even more obvious is the fact that decision making being the sole source of skill is a bad thing. You or any other supporter have still yet to even attempt to explain why decision making is harder in LoL.
Did I ever say harder? I said more important. If being able to afk farm all day long and becoming a supercarry, or play some mechanically complicated champion better than anyone else isnt responsible for a pro player staying at that level, then only decision making remains.
downloaded lol because a bunch of my friends were playing it and i must say, it's an extremely fun game. after playing dota and hon extensively, though, i can't ever really take lol seriously as a competitive game. great for messing around and playing with friends though.
I was so surprised at the viewer count for LoL, but more surprised at how enjoyable it was to watch. Not sure if it's sustainable, but interesting to see these sorts of numbers.
Also, I don't think a thread about LoL, HoN, or DOTA exists in the universe that doesn't devolve into "x game takes more skill than y game."
I enjoy watching it, I sometimes have fun playing it casually but the amount of money it costs to be competitive in LoL seems pretty absurd to me. I'd rather pay a one off full price fee and have access to all the content forever like with HoN.
On July 27 2011 03:20 Looky wrote: doubt LoL will be an esport game. Valve Dota2 will bring all the competitive MOBA players together i think. leaving LoL with only the casual players.
LoL had ~200k viewers during DreamHack while Sc2 had 60k and Sc2 is very much an esport game. At what point does a game become an esport game?
For the 100th time LoL's stream was apart of their launcher at Dreamhack. If you look at the number of people they have online at prime-time (which this thread is about) it's easy to comprehend how they got so many "viewers" who either had their launcher idle or were just chilling there between games.
SC2 users are knowingly LEAVING a game to logon to a website where the must find a stream than watch an AD and than watch SC2.
And for the 101th time, you still needed to actually CLICK the link in order to be taken to a stream and be counted as a veiwer. Just having the client open didnt count you. All it did was advertise where you could watch the stream.
-You don't pay. -No one has to play a massive support role where they are completely gimped on levels. eg. no tri-lanes and pure support boots. -Learning curve is much smaller compared to dota/hon. -From MY experience 60% of the player base is under the age of 17. -You don't need to manage your mana and can just spam the shit out of your spells.
I see this game as being positive for e-sports just because of the sheer volume of people. My hope is it is a stepping stone for people to get interested in e-sports and eventually move on to games that have a little more depth to them than LoL.
I am(was , actually I'm mad at Dota because it made me miss years of BW) a Dota guy, just played a couple of LoL matches, but people were kinda...hm...very bad, and when I found out about that WoW-like tree of talents and "buying champions" to use it lost all the interest as a competitive game to me. If these about not having a massive support role with no tri-lanes and no mana management are true...I am disappoint.
- there's no tri-laning because basically every team can have a jungler/forester - there are support chars - mana "management" is significantly less important... but it's more fun to be able to do things other than last hit/deny in a lane. It's a major reason why the game is so popular compared to others in the genre.
Did you just re-write my points for me for no reason?
- there's no tri-laning because basically every team can have a jungler/forester * DUH meaning no MASSIVE support roles where your COMPLETELY gimped on levels from roaming or tri-laning. - there are support chars * i said this? - mana "management" is significantly less important... but it's more fun to be able to do things other than last hit/deny in a lane. It's a major reason why the game is so popular compared to others in the genre. * this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
On July 27 2011 03:20 Looky wrote: doubt LoL will be an esport game. Valve Dota2 will bring all the competitive MOBA players together i think. leaving LoL with only the casual players.
LoL had ~200k viewers during DreamHack while Sc2 had 60k and Sc2 is very much an esport game. At what point does a game become an esport game?
For the 100th time LoL's stream was apart of their launcher at Dreamhack. If you look at the number of people they have online at prime-time (which this thread is about) it's easy to comprehend how they got so many "viewers" who either had their launcher idle or were just chilling there between games.
SC2 users are knowingly LEAVING a game to logon to a website where the must find a stream than watch an AD and than watch SC2.
The stream wasn't part of the launcher, it contained a link to the stream. You could NOT watch the stream in the launcher. SC2 does a similar thing by adding GSL to their news posts and providing links(not as clearly as Riot did, but it's similar).
This whole argument is so common it's annoying, there were actually 200,000 live stream viewers, and while most of them came from the launcher, the ones that didn't click that link didn't watch the stream or get added to the count.
Since when does DotA have any decision making in late game ? There is none. If you argue otherwise, I really don't know what I can say to you. If you win/lose the early/mid the game is basically over. When the game is close, it's decided by someone getting caught / losing a big fight. Losing mid racks is 90% loss, losing 2 racks 95%, 3 racks 99,999%. It snowballs out of control incredibly harder than in LoL, making come-backs much more improbables. Decision making in DotA late game = Baron + end game or just end game ? Stop denying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about, it's really ridiculous. Some good things in HoN/DotA aren't in LoL, some good things in LoL arent in the former.
The Broodwar/SC2 is actually an excellent comparison for individual gameplay, Broodwar/DotA have a much bigger emphasize on very strong mechanics, and SC2/LoL are much more about general strategies and decisionmaking. (I'm not saying those are absent from Broodwar/DotA, having stronger mechanics is much more important than having a stronger decision-making, strategies and teamplay. DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Oh and on a side note about "death not mattering" : You can't buyback in LoL. If you're dead for 70 seconds, you're dead for 70 seconds.
EDIT : To the comment below : I played Aeon Strife on starcraft, then Eul's DotA during RoC for about a year. Stopped playing for a while then played again for around 18 months @Allstar, including several LANs and #dotapickup. Also I said "late game", please read before feeling entitled to trolling while you probably have less experience than me on the topic.
On July 28 2011 00:51 Microchaton wrote: DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Have you played dota? or you just listened to Basshunter's song? Throughout the whole game teamwork is essential. From first minute/rune gank to the last minute pushes
* this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
...
DOT DOT DOT.
Have you actually watched any competitive LoL? because there's like *one* character who can spam spells to kill creeps (karthus) without going OOM and losing their lane horribly within a few minutes. In fact, there are no characters that can waste mana on last hitting until level 8-10 because if you do you render yourself horrifically vulnerable to enemy harassment and ganks. There are several characters who don't use mana as a resource, but these are often even MORE unspammy in the very early game (mord/vlad) because they use health, or their abilities have high cooldowns and are mostly not useful for killing creeps (garen).
Players, even top tier players, may use spells on occasion to help them last hit, but rarely more than one spell per wave, if that. Spells are almost always aimed at opposing champions. There are a few characters like annie and karthus who can indeed 'spam' their basic nuke at minions making last hitting easy, but these champions are typically the type who melt if you piss on them. To use annie as an example, very squishy char, has a 5sec cooldown nuke as Q, gives the manacost back if you LH with it, every 5th spell you cast stuns for a second or so.
Now, if you just spam your Q to last hit minions, your opponent will simply wait till you Q with a stun on it and then jump on you and beat the shit out of you while it cools down and you can't do shit, in fact, they don't really even have to wait, so long as you don't have your stun stored, you're vulnerable to almost every other char
So, despite the fact you have this supposedly awesome last hitting tool, if you are playing anyone competent, you have to use your q 4 times and then never, ever again unless your opponent leaves lane, because it's your only zoning tool. You keep your stun ready and last hit with your AA like everyone else, because if you don't you lose half your health to a combo.
Similar mechanics stop spammyness from pretty much every other character at a decent level of play. Sure, noobs spam a lot, but we're talking serious noobs who go OOM with their lane partner and then killtrade while they're oom >.>.
That said, ability spamming DOES occur, just not against minions. A lot of characters have abilities that can be used to regularly harass, but opponents learn to never let them use them, or they can be dodged or juked so you eventually just waste your mana. Actual, real ability spam only ever starts happening around level 9-10 when core items start being finished to give people enough mana regen to support it, and by that time the lane phase is over in 60% of games, and ends shortly afterwards in 90%.
So quit talking out of your ass or actually support your argument with some examples please and thank you.
To be fair, when the jungler feeds the AP carry mid blue buff and he's like...malzahar, yeah he can push the lane like a moron and pretty much has unlimited mana. But that's special situations and there's a good reason people try to steal blues... and pushing is generally not the safest thing to do, as ganks are much more effective when you're at the enemy tower...
On July 28 2011 00:51 Microchaton wrote: Since when does DotA have any decision making in late game ? There is none. If you argue otherwise, I really don't know what I can say to you. If you win/lose the early/mid the game is basically over. When the game is close, it's decided by someone getting caught / losing a big fight. Losing mid racks is 90% loss, losing 2 racks 95%, 3 racks 99,999%. It snowballs out of control incredibly harder than in LoL, making come-backs much more improbables. Decision making in DotA late game = Baron + end game or just end game ? Stop denying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about, it's really ridiculous. Some good things in HoN/DotA aren't in LoL, some good things in LoL arent in the former.
The Broodwar/SC2 is actually an excellent comparison for individual gameplay, Broodwar/DotA have a much bigger emphasize on very strong mechanics, and SC2/LoL are much more about general strategies and decisionmaking. (I'm not saying those are absent from Broodwar/DotA, having stronger mechanics is much more important than having a stronger decision-making, strategies and teamplay. DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Oh and on a side note about "death not mattering" : You can't buyback in LoL. If you're dead for 70 seconds, you're dead for 70 seconds.
EDIT : To the comment below : I played Aeon Strife on starcraft, then Eul's DotA during RoC for about a year. Stopped playing for a while then played again for around 18 months @Allstar, including several LANs and #dotapickup. Also I said "late game", please read before feeling entitled to trolling while you probably have less experience than me on the topic.
Once again, I heavily heavily heavily disagree, and your aggressiveness in your statements makes it all the more off-putting. Once again, where is there more decision making in League of Legends?
You can add one thing I guess, "Dragon" which becomes pretty negligible later in the game. The first 4-5 dragons are a big deal, then from there, doing dragon will just leave you open to having the opposing team do Baron so you only really do it as an easy way to get more ahead. Even then, the ancients, stacking and the jungle mechanics in DotA easily account for this as well.
The decision making is equivalent in both games if anything, even in the late-game. What nonsense that LoL is more decision making oriented and strategic...
The Broodwar to SC2 comparison doesn't actually work here in my opinion, it's not just 5 individuals vs 5 individuals while LoL is more team oriented. Both games are equally team oriented at the top level of play, it just so happens that in DotA you need individual skill as well and skill differentiation is quite apparent, it has everything LoL does in terms of team oriented depth with much more in regards to individual skill and depth.
And before you go off on a new tangent, I've played both games extensively at a relatively high level.
Really frustrating to read the HoN vs LoL debate. Its simply HoN players who have little LoL experiences judging LoL and LoL players with little HoN experiences juding HoN.
Lets just acknowledge and congratulate Riot on making such a popular game, no comparison needs to be made by people who are not at the very highest level in both games imo.
the polls make sense, casuals win out in recent years (i.e look at WoW)
off topic: what is with people lumping all games together into one e-sport? its not like you support all sports if you like basketball and if you dont like all the other sports you are hurting sports... wtf is with that logic
also who cares about LoL ... next dota will be much more awesome
On July 28 2011 01:16 Senx wrote: Really frustrating to read the HoN vs LoL debate. Its simply HoN players who have little LoL experiences judging LoL and LoL players with little HoN experiences juding HoN.
Lets just acknowledge and congratulate Riot on making such a popular game, no comparison needs to be made by people who are not at the very highest level in both games imo.
Seriously. I think these guys should get a temp ban for blatantly disregarding the warning that was put on this thread from page one.
On July 28 2011 00:51 Microchaton wrote: Since when does DotA have any decision making in late game ? There is none. If you argue otherwise, I really don't know what I can say to you. If you win/lose the early/mid the game is basically over. When the game is close, it's decided by someone getting caught / losing a big fight. Losing mid racks is 90% loss, losing 2 racks 95%, 3 racks 99,999%. It snowballs out of control incredibly harder than in LoL, making come-backs much more improbables. Decision making in DotA late game = Baron + end game or just end game ? Stop denying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about, it's really ridiculous. Some good things in HoN/DotA aren't in LoL, some good things in LoL arent in the former.
The Broodwar/SC2 is actually an excellent comparison for individual gameplay, Broodwar/DotA have a much bigger emphasize on very strong mechanics, and SC2/LoL are much more about general strategies and decisionmaking. (I'm not saying those are absent from Broodwar/DotA, having stronger mechanics is much more important than having a stronger decision-making, strategies and teamplay. DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Oh and on a side note about "death not mattering" : You can't buyback in LoL. If you're dead for 70 seconds, you're dead for 70 seconds.
EDIT : To the comment below : I played Aeon Strife on starcraft, then Eul's DotA during RoC for about a year. Stopped playing for a while then played again for around 18 months @Allstar, including several LANs and #dotapickup. Also I said "late game", please read before feeling entitled to trolling while you probably have less experience than me on the topic.
you obviously have no idea how good dota is played by how you say there is no late game nor coming back. dota is a team game in the truest sense of the word just as much as LoL please dont bullshit that you are good at all if you actually think what you said.
On July 28 2011 01:16 Senx wrote: Really frustrating to read the HoN vs LoL debate. Its simply HoN players who have little LoL experiences judging LoL and LoL players with little HoN experiences juding HoN.
Lets just acknowledge and congratulate Riot on making such a popular game, no comparison needs to be made by people who are not at the very highest level in both games imo.
Does 250 games qualify me as not knowing a thing about LoL?
And to those saying LoL has a more difficult/important mindset on decision making. It is only important because that is ALL there is. Nothing else contributes majorly to that game. I can go 2-20 in the first 20 minutes and it will not impede me at all just give the other team lots of gold.
On July 28 2011 01:16 Senx wrote: Really frustrating to read the HoN vs LoL debate. Its simply HoN players who have little LoL experiences judging LoL and LoL players with little HoN experiences juding HoN.
Lets just acknowledge and congratulate Riot on making such a popular game, no comparison needs to be made by people who are not at the very highest level in both games imo.
Does 250 games qualify me as not knowing a thing about LoL?
And to those saying LoL has a more difficult/important mindset on decision making. It is only important because that is ALL there is. Nothing else contributes majorly to that game. I can go 2-20 in the first 20 minutes and it will not impede me at all just give the other team lots of gold.
That's actually a pretty huge hyperbole, deaths matter in both games, it's just easier not to die in LoL and not worth it to make the effort to get a kill. That doesn't mean feeding is irrelevant though.
I really dislike all this blind hatred for LoL. So I'm going to write a lot here, and this is coming from an ex-dota player who played TDA 5-6 hours a day, dxd league as well as wrote some of the guides that were on dota-allstars before the site was taken down (I did a guide on Spectre, that dark shaman dude, and I think juggernaught[could be wrong it's been over 5 years])
First of all, the met-game of LoL is absolute pure unadulterated shit. That is my biggest complaint with the game. The top-level players don't practice hard enough and Riot doesn't let the meta simmer. It really is disgusting how fast the meta shifts when there is absolutely no reasoning behind it. This has a LOT to do with the misinformed 'pros'. If this game had real pros it could go somewhere. Right now it feels like WoW--the pros there are aren't very good outside of a few things and lack any specific knowledge about certain things (that they should). The most startling example is pros that don't know the abilities of every champion, to me that is just wrong and stupid. If you play the game for a living you should be able to keep up with patch notes and new champions no problem.
Secondly those problems listed above are solved very easily, otherwise I would lose all faith in this game (which I love). We just need better pros, that's all there is to it. I 100% believe if LoL steps up in top level player quality we will see new things (especially tri-lane). it's just the players don't want to try anything new, they just do what works and that's it.
Thirdly, yes the skill-cap is lower than HoN and DoTA. I don't know why anyone would argue otherwise. Does this make it bad? No. The skillcap of sc2 is lower than sc1, does it make it bad? No.
Fourthly, the amount of customization in LoL adds so much more strategic depth than HoN and DoTA that it allows for a lot of innovation. (Although I dislike the way they implemented acquiring runes, the system itself is very cool). There are different paths for many champions available that changes the meta-game a lot because of the depth it adds to each champion.
Fifthly, summoner spells and flash. I am so glad they are changing flash. That was my one largest complaint with the actual balance/gameplay. Flash is too powerful of a spell to allow everyone to have it, it just is. Although I understand allowing everyone to have it (makes for MUCH more aggressive play) it detracts from tense moments which hurt it for spectators. Never when I watch LoL do I have my hand over my mouth going wtf into my palm like I do when I watch sc2, mostly because of flash. The rest of the summoner spells are fantastic and add a lot to champion customization.
Lastly I would just like to say that LoL, given more competent top tier players, could become a great eSPORT. However, if Riot and the professional community don't give it more of their time and dedication and innovation I really really really feel like we are in for another WoW-esque eSPORT. IE. popular but quite bad. Which would be a shame because I really like LoL and the innovations they have added to the genre.
Let me preface my post saying that I'm a LoL fan through and through.
I'm not sure why people are denying that League takes less skill than DotA/HoN, because mechanically it IS easier to play. Both games are 5v5 and require teamwork to setup ganks and win team fights so I'm not sure why anyone is arguing that either requires more teamwork to win. What LoL DOES have up on the other moba games besides a larger playerbase is the ability to turn around a game that was pretty much already won. HoN and DotA are both over once one champion gets fed enough to 1 shot all 5 players, but even when that happens in LoL, the time it takes for anyone to grab baron/BD the enemy base allows for the game to balance itself out. I'd say endgame LoL is more difficult to call than endgame in other moba games because even when it's horribly imbalanced in one team's favor, the other team can easily win if they get lucky, or wait for the enemy team to get out of position then force a base race.
I enjoy moba games through and through, and honestly my commitment to LoL was originally just born out of it being the chosen games my friends started playing, and aside from some things that I'd really like to see changed, I think Riot's deserved as much money/attention as they've received from their game. Good job.
On July 28 2011 00:51 Microchaton wrote: Since when does DotA have any decision making in late game ? There is none. If you argue otherwise, I really don't know what I can say to you. If you win/lose the early/mid the game is basically over. When the game is close, it's decided by someone getting caught / losing a big fight. Losing mid racks is 90% loss, losing 2 racks 95%, 3 racks 99,999%. It snowballs out of control incredibly harder than in LoL, making come-backs much more improbables. Decision making in DotA late game = Baron + end game or just end game ? Stop denying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about, it's really ridiculous. Some good things in HoN/DotA aren't in LoL, some good things in LoL arent in the former.
The Broodwar/SC2 is actually an excellent comparison for individual gameplay, Broodwar/DotA have a much bigger emphasize on very strong mechanics, and SC2/LoL are much more about general strategies and decisionmaking. (I'm not saying those are absent from Broodwar/DotA, having stronger mechanics is much more important than having a stronger decision-making, strategies and teamplay. DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Oh and on a side note about "death not mattering" : You can't buyback in LoL. If you're dead for 70 seconds, you're dead for 70 seconds.
EDIT : To the comment below : I played Aeon Strife on starcraft, then Eul's DotA during RoC for about a year. Stopped playing for a while then played again for around 18 months @Allstar, including several LANs and #dotapickup. Also I said "late game", please read before feeling entitled to trolling while you probably have less experience than me on the topic.
This is so incredibly dense, Dota's a far different game then when you played (back then it was mainly about who had more aegis/rapiers, so I kind of understand your view). There's now an incredible amount of decision making in both LoL and Dota in close late game situations. Your argument is the equivalent of a Starcrafter saying there is no late game in Starcraft 2, if you're behind 50 food it's 90% loss, if you're behind 75 food 95%, it's all about the early game decisions, etc.. Just because you get behind in Dota by losing raxes does NOT prove anything about how much decision making there is. The map control and fights are much more intricate in Dota nowadays than before (to be honest, back then most people weren't very good at the genre and a few people who knew how to last hit and gank dominated everything). Your argument boils down to: if you get ahead early, late game is pretty much already decided. Guess what, this is intrinsic to how most strategy games function. Also, your statement about Dota being 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals makes me think you haven't watched a competitive Dota match in years.
Anyhow, League of Legends doing well can only mean well for other titles in the Genre. I recently have seen more people coming to Dota from LoL than before, in anticipation of Dota 2. The few players who went from hon/dota over to LoL in the recent past have usually done so for money, and that's cool for them also.
Did not realise LoL was that big O.O. Wow mad props to them.
With that I can't wait to see what kind of numbers Dota 2 will pull considering alot of the hon/dota/lol people will try/play it. Then loads of people will try/play it just cause its a steam game O.O.
In any case, let's all agree that we hope DotA2 will be absolutely fantastic and stop the "Moba war" :p
My greatest fear is that the game won't be strict enough with people ruining games on purpose, trashtalking etc... I really think a #dotapickup policy should be the rule, even if it won't happen. For those who don't know dotapickup rules: http://www.dotapickup.com/forum/index.php?page=74
Basically, if you do everything to annoy people, bad behavior, troll, ragequits = instant ban for some time, and recidivists are permabanned reaaally fast.
On July 28 2011 00:51 Microchaton wrote: Since when does DotA have any decision making in late game ? There is none. If you argue otherwise, I really don't know what I can say to you. If you win/lose the early/mid the game is basically over. When the game is close, it's decided by someone getting caught / losing a big fight. Losing mid racks is 90% loss, losing 2 racks 95%, 3 racks 99,999%. It snowballs out of control incredibly harder than in LoL, making come-backs much more improbables. Decision making in DotA late game = Baron + end game or just end game ? Stop denying stuff if you don't know what you're talking about, it's really ridiculous. Some good things in HoN/DotA aren't in LoL, some good things in LoL arent in the former.
The Broodwar/SC2 is actually an excellent comparison for individual gameplay, Broodwar/DotA have a much bigger emphasize on very strong mechanics, and SC2/LoL are much more about general strategies and decisionmaking. (I'm not saying those are absent from Broodwar/DotA, having stronger mechanics is much more important than having a stronger decision-making, strategies and teamplay. DotA is like 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals, while LoL is much more focused on the team as a whole.
Oh and on a side note about "death not mattering" : You can't buyback in LoL. If you're dead for 70 seconds, you're dead for 70 seconds.
EDIT : To the comment below : I played Aeon Strife on starcraft, then Eul's DotA during RoC for about a year. Stopped playing for a while then played again for around 18 months @Allstar, including several LANs and #dotapickup. Also I said "late game", please read before feeling entitled to trolling while you probably have less experience than me on the topic.
This is so incredibly dense, Dota's a far different game then when you played (back then it was mainly about who had more aegis/rapiers, so I kind of understand your view). There's now an incredible amount of decision making in both LoL and Dota in close late game situations. Your argument is the equivalent of a Starcrafter saying there is no late game in Starcraft 2, if you're behind 50 food it's 90% loss, if you're behind 75 food 95%, it's all about the early game decisions, etc.. Just because you get behind in Dota by losing raxes does NOT prove anything about how much decision making there is. The map control and fights are much more intricate in Dota nowadays than before (to be honest, back then most people weren't very good at the genre and a few people who knew how to last hit and gank dominated everything). Your argument boils down to: if you get ahead early, late game is pretty much already decided. Guess what, this is intrinsic to how most strategy games function. Also, your statement about Dota being 5 individuals playing against 5 individuals makes me think you haven't watched a competitive Dota match in years.
Anyhow, League of Legends doing well can only mean well for other titles in the Genre. I recently have seen more people coming to Dota from LoL than before, in anticipation of Dota 2. The few players who went from hon/dota over to LoL in the recent past have usually done so for money, and that's cool for them also.
Not to mention Aegis/Divine was before the abuse of Dagger. This is like basing your opinion of SC2 is now off of what it was in Beta or SC1 back when spawning pool was 150 minerals, not to mention the the huge leaps and advances in understanding and nuance of the game.
BTW I've seen and won and lost games where 3 rax was down FOR BOTH TEAMS. It's not 99.99% or whatever he's talking out of his ass.
On July 28 2011 01:32 Zdrastochye wrote: What LoL DOES have up on the other moba games besides a larger playerbase is the ability to turn around a game that was pretty much already won. HoN and DotA are both over once one champion gets fed enough to 1 shot all 5 players
Turnarounds happen so much in DotA/HoN its ridiculous. Ever win a LoL game 4v5 from the get go? And once one hero gets farmed its over? Not at all, plenty of comebacks/denying that hero the farm they need. Theoretically you can push that heroes farm back indefinitely as long as he leaves the base. Mejai's Soulstealer, Sword of the Occult, Leviathan. Best 3 items on any hero in LoL.
On July 28 2011 01:32 Zdrastochye wrote: What LoL DOES have up on the other moba games besides a larger playerbase is the ability to turn around a game that was pretty much already won. HoN and DotA are both over once one champion gets fed enough to 1 shot all 5 players
Turnarounds happen so much in DotA/HoN its ridiculous. Ever win a LoL game 4v5 from the get go? And once one hero gets farmed its over? Not at all, plenty of comebacks/denying that hero the farm they need. Theoretically you can push that heroes farm back indefinitely as long as he leaves the base. Mejai's Soulstealer, Sword of the Occult, Leviathan. Best 3 items on any hero in LoL.
Once again, I think you're kind of misinformed or maybe you're talking about lower level play.
Snowball items are fairly risky and generally avoided at higher level play barring a handful of champions, they're hardly the best 3 items on any hero in LoL, people even used to do this troll where they got all three of them and failed miserably calling out, "Bravery!" or some shit.
But yes, there are comebacks in both games, the respawning inhibitors and baron cover that in LoL and the death mechanics as well as the nature of disables and layout covers that in DotA/HoN.
But yeah, as far as all that nonsense about LoL being more strategic or having more decision making depth, better late-game etcetera, that's all it really is... Nonsense.
Edit: No one uses revive at higher levels, aside from some Metas where revive jungle-Eve was popular and global teleporters. It's not worth it over other summoner spells.
Yes I've won 4v5s from the getgo. I've won LoL games with their carry starting 20-0, how would you ever be able to win once Devourer goes 20-0 to start?
I'm talking actually late-game turnarounds, where you win with a difference in score of like 100-10. Which is possible, but not in DotA or HoN.
On July 28 2011 02:10 Zdrastochye wrote: Yes I've won 4v5s from the getgo. I've won LoL games with their carry starting 20-0, how would you ever be able to win once Devourer goes 20-0 to start?
I'm talking actually late-game turnarounds, where you win with a difference in score of like 100-10. Which is possible, but not in DotA or HoN.
It might be possible if the opposing team somehow suddenly went full retard, but aside from that you're being incredibly hyperbolic. If both teams play well, the comeback factor isn't a real comparator. Once you get behind in LoL, it feels like it's more about hoping your opponent fucks up, which for some reason, happened so often at lower levels of play, people would just get ahead and then think that they could play with their dicks and win.
Besides, I'm not sure if the hyperbolic turn-arounds you mention would even be good for a game. I can play with my feet for 20 minutes and then suddenly want to win in the last 10? Doesn't really happen and would make consistency less important so I'm glad neither game really functions that way.
All this has kind of made me hate the game: There's typically an hour+ long queue on the NA server during peak times, they release new heroes more frequently than they used to and it's throwing the metagame out of balance on a fairly regular interval, all in the name of attracting new customers and getting them to spend money buying their ridiculously overpriced new heroes every week or 2.
On July 28 2011 02:10 Zdrastochye wrote: Yes I've won 4v5s from the getgo. I've won LoL games with their carry starting 20-0, how would you ever be able to win once Devourer goes 20-0 to start?
I'm talking actually late-game turnarounds, where you win with a difference in score of like 100-10. Which is possible, but not in DotA or HoN.
While it's off-topic as hell: a carry can go 1billion-0 and still lose it for the team if they make bad decisions.
I'm really happy page 16 had some smart posters, which has unfortunately been a rare commodity in this thread.
Although I'm directly talking to the opposite of those posters now, I'm politely wondering if someone can actually prove the claim that LoL is the pinnacle in MOBA teamwork. I'm not asking for a comparison, simply the unique aspects of LoL that make it focus on teamwork the most. This doesn't include the lack of competitive features included in other MOBA games, as that doesn't increase the amount of teamwork, much like taking a full glass of orange soda and pouring half of it out doesn't make Kel love it any more.
Also lol @ the guy saying Dota has zero teamwork. Mind-boggling.
On July 28 2011 02:10 Zdrastochye wrote: Yes I've won 4v5s from the getgo. I've won LoL games with their carry starting 20-0, how would you ever be able to win once Devourer goes 20-0 to start?
I'm talking actually late-game turnarounds, where you win with a difference in score of like 100-10. Which is possible, but not in DotA or HoN.
in the actual lategame is when the game is the most volatile...games won't go late if you're getting overrun, bro.
On July 28 2011 02:10 Zdrastochye wrote: Yes I've won 4v5s from the getgo. I've won LoL games with their carry starting 20-0, how would you ever be able to win once Devourer goes 20-0 to start?
I'm talking actually late-game turnarounds, where you win with a difference in score of like 100-10. Which is possible, but not in DotA or HoN.
in the actual lategame is when the game is the most volatile...games won't go late if you're getting overrun, bro.
I don't see how making many mistakes early game punishing you is a bad thing, but there have been many pro games where teams with 20-30 kills less have still won because of good team/pushing synergy and great teamfights. The fact that it is harder to do makes it more exciting, while the fact that early game fights don't have as much impact in LoL makes those early game fights less exciting.
* this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
...
DOT DOT DOT.
Have you actually watched any competitive LoL? because there's like *one* character who can spam spells to kill creeps (karthus) without going OOM and losing their lane horribly within a few minutes. In fact, there are no characters that can waste mana on last hitting until level 8-10 because if you do you render yourself horrifically vulnerable to enemy harassment and ganks. There are several characters who don't use mana as a resource, but these are often even MORE unspammy in the very early game (mord/vlad) because they use health, or their abilities have high cooldowns and are mostly not useful for killing creeps (garen).
Players, even top tier players, may use spells on occasion to help them last hit, but rarely more than one spell per wave, if that. Spells are almost always aimed at opposing champions. There are a few characters like annie and karthus who can indeed 'spam' their basic nuke at minions making last hitting easy, but these champions are typically the type who melt if you piss on them. To use annie as an example, very squishy char, has a 5sec cooldown nuke as Q, gives the manacost back if you LH with it, every 5th spell you cast stuns for a second or so.
Now, if you just spam your Q to last hit minions, your opponent will simply wait till you Q with a stun on it and then jump on you and beat the shit out of you while it cools down and you can't do shit, in fact, they don't really even have to wait, so long as you don't have your stun stored, you're vulnerable to almost every other char
So, despite the fact you have this supposedly awesome last hitting tool, if you are playing anyone competent, you have to use your q 4 times and then never, ever again unless your opponent leaves lane, because it's your only zoning tool. You keep your stun ready and last hit with your AA like everyone else, because if you don't you lose half your health to a combo.
Similar mechanics stop spammyness from pretty much every other character at a decent level of play. Sure, noobs spam a lot, but we're talking serious noobs who go OOM with their lane partner and then killtrade while they're oom >.>.
That said, ability spamming DOES occur, just not against minions. A lot of characters have abilities that can be used to regularly harass, but opponents learn to never let them use them, or they can be dodged or juked so you eventually just waste your mana. Actual, real ability spam only ever starts happening around level 9-10 when core items start being finished to give people enough mana regen to support it, and by that time the lane phase is over in 60% of games, and ends shortly afterwards in 90%.
So quit talking out of your ass or actually support your argument with some examples please and thank you.
The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo. I'll start quoting 1 line of a post and than write a page one it. Realize your retarded
* this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
...
DOT DOT DOT.
Have you actually watched any competitive LoL? because there's like *one* character who can spam spells to kill creeps (karthus) without going OOM and losing their lane horribly within a few minutes. In fact, there are no characters that can waste mana on last hitting until level 8-10 because if you do you render yourself horrifically vulnerable to enemy harassment and ganks. There are several characters who don't use mana as a resource, but these are often even MORE unspammy in the very early game (mord/vlad) because they use health, or their abilities have high cooldowns and are mostly not useful for killing creeps (garen).
Players, even top tier players, may use spells on occasion to help them last hit, but rarely more than one spell per wave, if that. Spells are almost always aimed at opposing champions. There are a few characters like annie and karthus who can indeed 'spam' their basic nuke at minions making last hitting easy, but these champions are typically the type who melt if you piss on them. To use annie as an example, very squishy char, has a 5sec cooldown nuke as Q, gives the manacost back if you LH with it, every 5th spell you cast stuns for a second or so.
Now, if you just spam your Q to last hit minions, your opponent will simply wait till you Q with a stun on it and then jump on you and beat the shit out of you while it cools down and you can't do shit, in fact, they don't really even have to wait, so long as you don't have your stun stored, you're vulnerable to almost every other char
So, despite the fact you have this supposedly awesome last hitting tool, if you are playing anyone competent, you have to use your q 4 times and then never, ever again unless your opponent leaves lane, because it's your only zoning tool. You keep your stun ready and last hit with your AA like everyone else, because if you don't you lose half your health to a combo.
Similar mechanics stop spammyness from pretty much every other character at a decent level of play. Sure, noobs spam a lot, but we're talking serious noobs who go OOM with their lane partner and then killtrade while they're oom >.>.
That said, ability spamming DOES occur, just not against minions. A lot of characters have abilities that can be used to regularly harass, but opponents learn to never let them use them, or they can be dodged or juked so you eventually just waste your mana. Actual, real ability spam only ever starts happening around level 9-10 when core items start being finished to give people enough mana regen to support it, and by that time the lane phase is over in 60% of games, and ends shortly afterwards in 90%.
So quit talking out of your ass or actually support your argument with some examples please and thank you.
The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo. I'll start quoting 1 line of a post and than write a page one it. Realize your retarded
You do have to manage your mana. I don't know where this comes from. Just because some player you see uses all his mana on creeps doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nothing makes me more upset than watching a game and seeing like a Brand use all his mana on creeps then having the jungle come to gank mid but they can't because the idiot Brand used all his mana on creeps.
it's a problem with the meta, not with the game. Hopefully eventually better players that come to LoL for the cash will iron out this shitty play.
* this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
...
DOT DOT DOT.
Have you actually watched any competitive LoL? because there's like *one* character who can spam spells to kill creeps (karthus) without going OOM and losing their lane horribly within a few minutes. In fact, there are no characters that can waste mana on last hitting until level 8-10 because if you do you render yourself horrifically vulnerable to enemy harassment and ganks. There are several characters who don't use mana as a resource, but these are often even MORE unspammy in the very early game (mord/vlad) because they use health, or their abilities have high cooldowns and are mostly not useful for killing creeps (garen).
Players, even top tier players, may use spells on occasion to help them last hit, but rarely more than one spell per wave, if that. Spells are almost always aimed at opposing champions. There are a few characters like annie and karthus who can indeed 'spam' their basic nuke at minions making last hitting easy, but these champions are typically the type who melt if you piss on them. To use annie as an example, very squishy char, has a 5sec cooldown nuke as Q, gives the manacost back if you LH with it, every 5th spell you cast stuns for a second or so.
Now, if you just spam your Q to last hit minions, your opponent will simply wait till you Q with a stun on it and then jump on you and beat the shit out of you while it cools down and you can't do shit, in fact, they don't really even have to wait, so long as you don't have your stun stored, you're vulnerable to almost every other char
So, despite the fact you have this supposedly awesome last hitting tool, if you are playing anyone competent, you have to use your q 4 times and then never, ever again unless your opponent leaves lane, because it's your only zoning tool. You keep your stun ready and last hit with your AA like everyone else, because if you don't you lose half your health to a combo.
Similar mechanics stop spammyness from pretty much every other character at a decent level of play. Sure, noobs spam a lot, but we're talking serious noobs who go OOM with their lane partner and then killtrade while they're oom >.>.
That said, ability spamming DOES occur, just not against minions. A lot of characters have abilities that can be used to regularly harass, but opponents learn to never let them use them, or they can be dodged or juked so you eventually just waste your mana. Actual, real ability spam only ever starts happening around level 9-10 when core items start being finished to give people enough mana regen to support it, and by that time the lane phase is over in 60% of games, and ends shortly afterwards in 90%.
So quit talking out of your ass or actually support your argument with some examples please and thank you.
The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo. I'll start quoting 1 line of a post and than write a page one it. Realize your retarded
You do have to manage your mana. I don't know where this comes from. Just because some player you see uses all his mana on creeps doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nothing makes me more upset than watching a game and seeing like a Brand use all his mana on creeps then having the jungle come to gank mid but they can't because the idiot Brand used all his mana on creeps.
it's a problem with the meta, not with the game. Hopefully eventually better players that come to LoL for the cash will iron out this shitty play.
So you can't spam spells in LoL? you only get 1 or 2 spells per mana pool? Similar to hon/dota?
what game are you playing?
*edit the point was you dont need to manage mana not that u can spam creeps
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so. As you guys apparently like crappy comparisons, who has the more complicated money management, a hobo with 5$ a day, or the person in charge of a company's budget ? Less mana doesn't mean "more skill to play" it just means you pretty much don't do anything but autoattack for 99% of the laning phase. And tons of champions in LoL are oom in one combo, even after this aspect of them was softened by patch (old alistar / old blitzcrank derp ). And the champions who have seemingly a lot of mana if they play correctly (malzahar / karthus) are so because they have special skills that make them regain mana with creep kills.
It's a free game that's relatively simple, although what really surprises me is how so many people can keep playing with such a hostile learning environment to those new to the game.
Honestly, back when it was DotA in wc3 the community was already scum. Downloading the map? kicked and banned by automated bot list. Ever disconnect? same thing. Ever had to leave early, or left when you didn't have fun anymore? same thing.
The community hasn't exactly gotten better. Despite my experience of watching DotA turn from a fun custom game into some elitist circlejerk, I attempted LoL about a year ago. After being kicked from just about every non-ranked "beginners only" game for being a beginner, I got to playing one game. And you can see why it's fun: it's simple, there's a lot of variety, and it's free if you don't want to pay for any extras.
But good for E-sports? I can't see how. Popular doesn't mean good, it's still an absolutely awful community and it always has been back after it got "serious" in warcraft 3.
* this is one of the main reasons the game has much less depth and a much smaller learning curve. Spam spells to kill creeps!
...
DOT DOT DOT.
Have you actually watched any competitive LoL? because there's like *one* character who can spam spells to kill creeps (karthus) without going OOM and losing their lane horribly within a few minutes. In fact, there are no characters that can waste mana on last hitting until level 8-10 because if you do you render yourself horrifically vulnerable to enemy harassment and ganks. There are several characters who don't use mana as a resource, but these are often even MORE unspammy in the very early game (mord/vlad) because they use health, or their abilities have high cooldowns and are mostly not useful for killing creeps (garen).
Players, even top tier players, may use spells on occasion to help them last hit, but rarely more than one spell per wave, if that. Spells are almost always aimed at opposing champions. There are a few characters like annie and karthus who can indeed 'spam' their basic nuke at minions making last hitting easy, but these champions are typically the type who melt if you piss on them. To use annie as an example, very squishy char, has a 5sec cooldown nuke as Q, gives the manacost back if you LH with it, every 5th spell you cast stuns for a second or so.
Now, if you just spam your Q to last hit minions, your opponent will simply wait till you Q with a stun on it and then jump on you and beat the shit out of you while it cools down and you can't do shit, in fact, they don't really even have to wait, so long as you don't have your stun stored, you're vulnerable to almost every other char
So, despite the fact you have this supposedly awesome last hitting tool, if you are playing anyone competent, you have to use your q 4 times and then never, ever again unless your opponent leaves lane, because it's your only zoning tool. You keep your stun ready and last hit with your AA like everyone else, because if you don't you lose half your health to a combo.
Similar mechanics stop spammyness from pretty much every other character at a decent level of play. Sure, noobs spam a lot, but we're talking serious noobs who go OOM with their lane partner and then killtrade while they're oom >.>.
That said, ability spamming DOES occur, just not against minions. A lot of characters have abilities that can be used to regularly harass, but opponents learn to never let them use them, or they can be dodged or juked so you eventually just waste your mana. Actual, real ability spam only ever starts happening around level 9-10 when core items start being finished to give people enough mana regen to support it, and by that time the lane phase is over in 60% of games, and ends shortly afterwards in 90%.
So quit talking out of your ass or actually support your argument with some examples please and thank you.
The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo. I'll start quoting 1 line of a post and than write a page one it. Realize your retarded
User was warned for this post
You totally need to manage your mana, what are you talking about? If you spam mana runes and open with meki, you're going to be very weak on the lane in other aspects. If you open with other setup, you definitely will run out of mana if you don't manage it. I see those people who pick clarity and can't manage their mana at all and spam like crazy and those are the terrible people that always end up feeding
On July 28 2011 03:20 NotJack wrote: You need to manage your mana in LoL like Bill Gates needs to manage his money
Let's say, Sion starting mana is like 200 something, his stun costs 100 mana, do you think he can just keep spamming it? God...
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so.
I wasn't saying it was good or bad, just saying it's true. Spam skills, last hit and spam more skills until you think you should recall, then repeat.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so.
I wasn't saying it was good or bad, just saying it's true. Spam skills, last hit and spam more skills until you think you should recall, then repeat.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
If you keep recalling every time you're OOM and if you spam endlessly, you're most likely going to get your tower pushed down which makes you lose the lane, also if you're without teleport you're going to get denied of a ton of EXP by the turret, which also gets you behind on the lane. Teleport helps with this but that has a 5 minute cooldown.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so.
I wasn't saying it was good or bad, just saying it's true. Spam skills, last hit and spam more skills until you think you should recall, then repeat.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
If you keep recalling every time you're OOM and if you spam endlessly, you're most likely going to get your tower pushed down which makes you lose the lane, also if you're without teleport you're going to get denied of a ton of EXP by the turret, which also gets you behind on the lane. Teleport helps with this but that has a 5 minute cooldown.
Can you explain the teamwork claim please? You seem like a very smart and handsome person.
On July 28 2011 03:31 HoldenR wrote: It's a free game that's relatively simple, although what really surprises me is how so many people can keep playing with such a hostile learning environment to those new to the game.
Honestly, back when it was DotA in wc3 the community was already scum. Downloading the map? kicked and banned by automated bot list. Ever disconnect? same thing. Ever had to leave early, or left when you didn't have fun anymore? same thing.
The community hasn't exactly gotten better. Despite my experience of watching DotA turn from a fun custom game into some elitist circlejerk, I attempted LoL about a year ago. After being kicked from just about every non-ranked "beginners only" game for being a beginner, I got to playing one game. And you can see why it's fun: it's simple, there's a lot of variety, and it's free if you don't want to pay for any extras.
But good for E-sports? I can't see how. Popular doesn't mean good, it's still an absolutely awful community and it always has been back after it got "serious" in warcraft 3.
Umm, what you described was very well understood by Icefrog and one of the points of consideration for DotA 2 during its development. As for how, I have no clue, if it does work out it would be revolutionary in heavy team play games.
This is also why you don't play these games by yourself unless you can endure the grind, it's a downside to being a very team-flavored game. Heroes aren't built in a vacuum, you're not suppose to play them as solo.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so. As you guys apparently like crappy comparisons, who has the more complicated money management, a hobo with 5$ a day, or the person in charge of a company's budget ? Less mana doesn't mean "more skill to play" it just means you pretty much don't do anything but autoattack for 99% of the laning phase. And tons of champions in LoL are oom in one combo, even after this aspect of them was softened by patch (old alistar / old blitzcrank derp ). And the champions who have seemingly a lot of mana if they play correctly (malzahar / karthus) are so because they have special skills that make them regain mana with creep kills.
Also, once again... as far as communities go, LoL's is no better once you get to ranked play.
Generally, resource management is less of an issue in LoL, that's pretty much all there is to this, saying one can spam endlessly is hyperbolical, but saying you have to be conservative is as well.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so.
I wasn't saying it was good or bad, just saying it's true. Spam skills, last hit and spam more skills until you think you should recall, then repeat.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
If you keep recalling every time you're OOM and if you spam endlessly, you're most likely going to get your tower pushed down which makes you lose the lane, also if you're without teleport you're going to get denied of a ton of EXP by the turret, which also gets you behind on the lane. Teleport helps with this but that has a 5 minute cooldown.
Can you explain the teamwork claim please? You seem like a very smart and handsome person.
Well, I claimed nothing about the teamwork, but you require teamwork to pick up skills because mostly 1v1 ganks don't work as they can usually escape to turret and you can't really solodive them, of course that doesn't hold true if you've got lizard or are gangplank and opponent is pushed up too far, but also you really can't 1v5 people like in DotA imo you can 1v5 with stuff like fed phantom lancer or spectre.
It's pretty difficult to explain but there's so much CC that even damage-dealing champions have(in HoN DotA its mostly supports with most CC) and any solo player can get killed by teamwork even if they're 25-0.
Not sure about the specifics of what you meant, though. But I always say that in LoL, you can win 2v5, but 1v5 isn't possible
edit: Btw it's partially true that you can use less mana in LoL, but for instance a Krobelus spam is still really crazygood and there's no items like magic wands. LoL spells in general aren't as effective early on when compared to DotA(That of course changes with AP and magic penetration)
That's a pretty good explanation for someone who didn't make the claim =P Sorry for asking of you there was a lot of people who said it and then completely abandoned the idea.
There are definitely spammers in HoN (chipper/zeus/armadon/krob) as well, it's naturally a good way to make certain heroes different and fun, just like there's heroes in LoL that barely use abilities early on.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so. As you guys apparently like crappy comparisons, who has the more complicated money management, a hobo with 5$ a day, or the person in charge of a company's budget ? Less mana doesn't mean "more skill to play" it just means you pretty much don't do anything but autoattack for 99% of the laning phase. And tons of champions in LoL are oom in one combo, even after this aspect of them was softened by patch (old alistar / old blitzcrank derp ). And the champions who have seemingly a lot of mana if they play correctly (malzahar / karthus) are so because they have special skills that make them regain mana with creep kills.
Also, once again... as far as communities go, LoL's is no better once you get to ranked play.
Generally, resource management is less of an issue in LoL, that's pretty much all there is to this, saying one can spam endlessly is hyperbolical, but saying you have to be conservative is as well.
It's not the end of the world either way.
You keep focusing on ranked play, but the fact that there is actually a pretty decent alternative to it is a big factor. The biggest problems happen when you either haven't played enough to even get to ranked play or you don't want to play 100% seriously, so I don't get how you can disregard them completelly when talking about the community. The biggest diference is that in HoN you get the same atitude of ranked play in 1500s, which could very well be your first game ever. It's the first impressions that made people say LoL has a much better community then the others.
On July 28 2011 03:01 Corona` wrote: The point was you don't need to manage your mana like you do in real games kiddo your retarded
And this is why tons of people quitted HoN. Thanks for being a stereotype. Stupidly wrong and ad hominem insults.
And Notjack is not far behind in "blindness-to-facts". It's not because you get oom in one spell in DotA that you have "infinite" mana in LoL. That's one of the reason denies are actually okay in lane, because there're nothing else to do than autoattack stuff anyway. Is this better gameplay/skill-wise ? Well that's opinion-related, but I don't think so. As you guys apparently like crappy comparisons, who has the more complicated money management, a hobo with 5$ a day, or the person in charge of a company's budget ? Less mana doesn't mean "more skill to play" it just means you pretty much don't do anything but autoattack for 99% of the laning phase. And tons of champions in LoL are oom in one combo, even after this aspect of them was softened by patch (old alistar / old blitzcrank derp ). And the champions who have seemingly a lot of mana if they play correctly (malzahar / karthus) are so because they have special skills that make them regain mana with creep kills.
Lots quitted HoN? This a joke? Chu and some of EG are all I can think of that are trying to play LoL competitively and chu blatantly states that HoN is the better game no matter if he is tired of it. Have you played hon and if so MMR please?
2 Early skills on any hero "that land" usually lead to an early kill. How on earth is that mainly auto attacks. You die 10x faster in hon than you do in LoL, especially early. How on earth is that auto attacked based? Add the 3s death early game if your in bad position to the base mechanics of DotA. And it is hard to play. Not to mention the heroes that can spam spells for no cost at all. "energy/rage/charm" whatever they call it.
One of my friends, a 1600 ranked ELO LoL player can't even pull a 1.0KD in casual mode with carry heroes. Does that put things into perspective at all?
If anyone here could link a video of LoL at competitive level which isn't a snoozefest please do so. (and don't post those one sided games if possible.. I wanna see what the fuss is about at "esport" level). personally so far, i think dota/hon is way superior than LoL for an esport in the same genre. I need to be made aware!
On July 28 2011 04:22 Alaron wrote: Lots quitted HoN? This a joke? Chu and some of EG are all I can think of that are trying to play LoL competitively and chu blatantly states that HoN is the better game no matter if he is tired of it. Have you played hon and if so MMR please?
I was sad that Chu left for LoL. I enjoyed watching the WHP guys play. They had a ganky/towerdiving-style backed up by insane individual skill players like chu himself and bkid etc.
On July 28 2011 04:22 Alaron wrote: One of my friends, a 1600 ranked ELO LoL player can't even pull a 1.0KD in casual mode with carry heroes. Does that put things into perspective at all?
No, because 1600 isn't that good.
It's equivalent to saying a Platinum SC2 player can't break D- on Iccup--neither surprising nor informative because it speaks to the relative size of the player-base more than the skill.
Why doesn't everyone just be quiet unless you have actual factual statements to say rather than personal diatribe about why one game is better. I hate idiots who talk in absolutes, and the only thing I hate more than that is people who talk in absolutes on purely personal evidence from a very small sample size (Alaron).
Talk about pros and cons or why things are good or why they are bad. Just saying something is bad with nothing to back up the statement is of absolutely no merit and is a post for something like 4chan.
I always love the shitstorm that emerges everytime LoL+Esports is mentioned here on TL. Its like discussing the right of existence of women's football in a football fanatics forum...
On July 28 2011 04:22 Alaron wrote: One of my friends, a 1600 ranked ELO LoL player can't even pull a 1.0KD in casual mode with carry heroes. Does that put things into perspective at all?
No, because 1600 isn't that good.
It's equivalent to saying a Platinum SC2 player can't break D- on Iccup--neither surprising nor informative because it speaks to the relative size of the player-base more than the skill.
Its probably more that the two games are completely different, and assuming things are similar to LoL is a fantastic way to get yourself dick-butted.
Stuns and disables do not have the same ranges that they have in LoL. No summoners. Chicken dynamics in laning, etc. None of these things have any relative equivalent. Add that to a wall of new heros with new abilities, new disables and new animations to learn and... welp.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
There are many reasons and most have already been mentionned. Let's take it "chronogically" from the start of the game. INB4 HUGE WALLS OF TEXT
- Most of the time, the junglers will start their jungling route with the Blue golem, so they have enough mana/cdr to clear the jungle swiftly and hopefully having enough health left for an early gank. Teams usually scatter around to scout, or sit with 5 man on a bush hoping someone will facecheck like a boss (this really doesnt happen in decent level games). Because of Clairvoyance (a summoner spell 99,9% of the time taken by the support aka wardbot (crystal maiden pretty much), there are usually mindgames involved if the teams are agressive enough. It's pretty common for teams to invade (depending on their team comps and the summoner spells taken, teams with heavy lvl 1 CC and 1/2 exhausts/ignite will usually do so against team with a less brutal lvl 1).
Oftentimes, the weaker team will back off if they see the stronger enemy team coming at them. Another very used (especially at higher level) tactic is that the stronger team will not bother trying to go for first blood, but just take the whole "lizard" part of their enemy jungle, or at least their Wraiths (big loss of xp/gold weakening the enemy's jungler by a LOT), giving them an edge on xp/gold without losing really anything. It's especially strong if you're on the purple side because you can give "red buff" (dot+slow on hit) to your ranged AD carry and he doesnt waste time running to bottom lane afterwards (bottom lane is 95% of the time Ranged AD carry and hard support). Another common strat is to ward the bush next to the enemy lizard, and your team will then try to sneak just before he kills it and hopefully steal it or even kill the jungler, oftentimes giving double buff to your mid player, giving him a HUGE advantage. There are also other possibilities but I'm not going to list everything.
AFAIK : sometimes people will try to group up and go for a lvl 1 first blood in DotA, but it's nowhere near systematic, and has way less subtlety (group up, go somewhere, if an enemy tumbles on them, bang first blood.
Laning phase wise. Teleport ganks, usually done by the top lane or sometimes by the mid lane, generally by someone with a big burst/cc. Your team puts a ward somewhere in the bottom bush or the tribush and here comes a gank. This kind of happens on DotA and is pretty much what is the most fun in the game, when everybody tps one after the other on a turret to join a fight. But you can't "hide it" like you can in LoL, it's much more straightforward (and the particles are huge). Those tp ganks are usually coordinated with a jungler gank, making it 4v2 and generally resulting in a kill if the enemy is not careful. Also, some champions have "globals" ultimate, kind of like Zeus in DotA, that are used to add some damage and/or cc to help a gank or a countergank (Ashe/Ezreal/gangplank/karthus) or even teleports (Shen/Twisted Fate/Nocturne) the person near the allies/ennemies. The downside of that is that the empty lanes will generally be pushed in return, damaging towers heavily, giving the enemy uncontested farm and lowering the gankers own farm. A failed TP gank is DISASTROUS. for the top lane. Even killing someone is sometimes not worth it.
During the laning phase in general, every lane has to be aware of your own and your ennemies' buffs respawns to try snatching them. It's pretty similar to runes, except you only have to pick up runes and that's it, you have to kill strong, powerful mobs for the buffs, and you most of the time take quite a bit of damage doing it; also, the buffs are in the jungles, not sitting in the river, which makes it safer to get your owns (but those buffs are often warded by enemies !) and VERY dangerous to try to steal your ennemies, unless you just killed one/several people. Those buffs also make for more choices when you get an advantage by killing someone. Killing the enemy mid lane and/or the jungler can make it very tempting to try to snatch enemy buffs, instead of just pushing. Another thing, is that this is FOUR buffs, with nothing random about them we're talking about, instead of a random rune whose effect can completely change the outcome of trying to pick them up and pop at one of 2 random places.
One of the most important thing in LoL is the drake(or dragon) control. located at a pretty much sat a place symetric to Nashor (Roshan, we'll talk about it later). It's is a very, very strong mob, immune to ccs, who does tons of damage early game (and scales up, as every mob/creep in the game, with time), spawns at 5:00, gives a good amount of experience and most of all 190 global gold ( = per player). It respawns every 6 minutes. Getting dragons early game is obviously very important, and the practicalities are similar to those mentionned above. teleport to a ward from top lane for instance make it an at most 5v4 to contest the dragon, and the weaker team will usually not try to fight them up front, at most try to steal it (ideally with smite, sometimes with global or long range ultimates, it happens a LOT (ashe/lux/ezreal ults...).
It also comes in the category of reasons of why "deaths in LoL ARE actually punishing". Because if you just ganked the bottom lane and ideally they died, you have a pretty much guaranteed "free dragon" which MORE THAN COMPENSATES the loss of gold that would have had to suffer a dead opponent in DotA. In this category you obviously find the "buffs you get from dead opponents" too... Losing a dragon and not knowing his death timer is also crippling, as the other team will be able to gather just as it spawns and zerg it without you having the time to realize it, and while losing 1 dragon isnt too big of a deal, losing 3+ is HUGE, and can make up for losing the lanes, but requires very good timings and communication (and warding ! )
Then come Nashor himself, spawning at 15:00. Though he is obviously LoL's Roshan, the mechanics and strategies around him are actually very different. In DotA most of the time, you "dare" kill Roshan when your team already has a big advantage and your creeps are pushing hard, so you can get away with doing it without much risk. "Sneaking" Roshans (or Kongors in HoN) generally ends up either in an unsuccessful retreat after your opponents show up, or in disaster as they rape you doing it. Both of those happen very often (much, much more often than in DotA actually, where you most of games end with neither team having really tried to kill it) in LoL.
Several reasons : It gives a lot of experience and 300 global gold, and a 5:00 buff giving lots of stats and big regeneration boosts, that can completely turn a game around (no item though). As a matter of fact, a very big part of the late game in LoL works around baron. It needs to be warded at all times and you need to be very careful not to show up at the other side of the map when the opponents are likely to zerg it. The buff can literally turn a game around, especially if your opponents steal it while you were doing it (the famous aoe stuns/silents hitting the jungler who then can't smite, or the 'ultimates' steal). Some champions, if they have a good farm, can even solo him (those with huge lifesteal and strong DPS, obviously) but it's really dangerous. Warding and counterwarding is insanely important there, having oracles or spare wards can completely change the course of the game. Whatever happens, the team with the buff, if they didnt get completely destroyed early/mid game and group up together for a push, is much more dangerous than without. They also gain a big health and mana regeneration, favorising slow, / poky pushes. The team without the buff will usually try to "stall" the game for 5 minutes, either by preventing them to push too hard, often sacrificing a tower or even an inhibitor (= a rax, except it respawns after a while). Some will try to backdoor or split push if they have the right champions, forcing the enemy team to split if they're not confident they can end the game, or losing side lanes towers, or even inhibitors. These split pushes / backdoor also happen a lot at bottom lane to bait a team into ganking the split pusher, and losing a Baron (works especially well with globals obviously).
Tons of mind games and running around is involved in these situations, in my opinion with much more subtlety and differences than in DotA when the only change is that someone will have an Ankh. Also,losing racks is so much more crucial in DotA that you can't really "give them up" anyway, it makes the game tons more difficult to win, when it's only a "problem" in LoL. A big one, but nothing huge. LoL gives more decision making in that: Should we kill this guy and stop the split push ? Force a fight right now at our tower ? At Baron ? the fact that LoL depends less on a single "hard carry" and more on the team as a whole late game also makes for very different possibilities late game, there is much more decision making about who to engage first and who to focus, and as the fights late game are very rarely as "instagibbing" as in DotA, it's not only (though it DOES happen) a : you initiate now and there and throw everything hoping it will kill the enemy carry and others. Decisions change and evolve more in teamfights, and can turn around much more easily than DotA's, a big reason being more "spammy" as you like to say, skills, especially with Cooldown Reduction. Most non-hard-carries in DotA do nothing for 13-15 seconds after using their abilities/combo, they either retreat or autoattack stuff. Obviously, factoring in the summoner spells add even more to the equation. Also, completely losing a teamfight in DotA mid/late game is DEVASTATING because you will usually lose several towers and/or racks because of that, putting you in an extremly difficult position. It's not quite as bad in LoL because of 1 :no gold loss 2inhibitors respawning >several champions actually do stuff in the team late game, not only one, so you don't have to keep your only carry in base pushing off supercreeps. 3 Baron. This is kind of double-edged here. But when you win a teamfight and are able to push freely to the racks in DotA, you do it. You don't go to Roshan. In LoL, it is actually often more beneficial to get the baron and then pushing, even if it results in your team actually not pushing at all. However, if the "winning team" ends up very low health, as they don't have "tps" as in DotA, if they push until the enemy respawns, they will then have to go back to base via the 8 seconds "recall". And in the meanwhile, the respawning team might very well rush to baron and do it, especially late game when your team has a huge dps. And this team will usually be in the better position, even having lost a teamfight and having its lanes pushed. More decision making.
In early game, you can pretty much make the same argument and replace Baron with Dragon. AND stealing enemy buffs is also very, very important late game, especially if some champions are much more powerful with them (AP carries with blues, AD carries with reds). A team with 2 blues and 2 reds probably has a better chance of winning a teamfight that a team with baron buff. I genuinely think it is more interesting than your carry snatching the rune hoping it will be a double damage. The fact that a lot of champions actually "do stuff" and are not cattered to "niche" roles (the hard carry autoattacks stuff, the support ward everywhere but is pretty much absent from teamfight, the other make their combos then back the fuck off or autoattack stuff) and that the targeting priorities and evolving decision making can change a lot, and in a split second make the team as a whole much more important that simply trying to protect your hard carry by CCing stuff hoping he doesnt get gibbed (most will have their BKB anyway, yay you can't do anything but autoattacking me to try to kill me, derp, doesnt exist in LoL).
It's really not explainable if you haven't played it yourself, but a support can actually win the teamfight by itself in LoL, given a good opportunity and seizing it (great janna ultimate perfectly splitting the enemy team, great alistar engage, soraka silencing an extremly dangerous enemy (not necessary a carry) or taric stunning him... Blink daggers of DotA also make for some pretty ridiculous engages ( Enigma / earthshaker ). Sure, there are LOTS of strong engages in LoL, but they won't win a teamfight against a good team as people can actually build items to counter the bursts/ccs. In DotA most people can't really afford to diverge from their core build for "luxuries" and even then it's usually not enough. While even the strongest engages/combos in LoL can be countered relatively easily (annie/amumu...). I've seen several DotA games where the AD carry ended up playin quite literally alone, with sometimes ankh and buying back several times.
Meh, so I just wrote that in one shot, it's probably pretty horrible to read and I certainly missed a lot of stuff, but I need to leave soon and I'll probably edit it later. I'm always opened to criticism and discussion as long as it's not "RETARDED KIDDO LOL". I know I can seem coarse writing some of that stuff, but I'm not really trying to be agressive, usually the idiocy of some of the haters take its toll to my gentleness though. Cheers !
PS : Oh, and stop making me say what I didnt say, some people above are implying I said "HoN is sinking lol everybody's leaving" or "DotA has no teamwork". I never said that at all. Making stuff up just to add to your arguments doesn't work. I played TONS of HoN during the beta around 1900 PSR and I still play quite a bit around 1900 MMR( http://i.imgur.com/m8TmX.jpg ). I even own 2 full-price accounts because I wanted to play with lower level friends for god's sake I have played the fucking game. Also, as was said by someone else, 1600 is not high at all in LoL. A "1600" typically" is someone who usually knows how the game works and isnt too bad at it, but that's nowhere enough proof of someone being "good". I don't play tons myself but am at 1850 with a 68% win ratio on about a hundred games, while having lost 120 ELO to decay during a long trip in the US (most losses being when I get to play support sadly . Last time I checked my "normal ELO" was around 2200 but AFAIK it's not visible anymore. "Top" players" (who usually have a ton of games played) are as high as 2400-2500. The thing to note also, is that MANY good players never play ranked, EVER, or only a few, so you often get to play in "normals" with very good players who aren't even ranked.
On July 28 2011 04:43 Cytokinesis wrote: Why doesn't everyone just be quiet unless you have actual factual statements to say rather than personal diatribe about why one game is better. I hate idiots who talk in absolutes, and the only thing I hate more than that is people who talk in absolutes on purely personal evidence from a very small sample size (Alaron).
Talk about pros and cons or why things are good or why they are bad. Just saying something is bad with nothing to back up the statement is of absolutely no merit and is a post for something like 4chan.
Are you kidding me? I'm not basing anything on personal evidence. HAHA what a joke. What a direct attack. I've done nothing but list the cons of LoL and briefly explain why it shouldn't be the premier competitive MOBA because it lacks in time played vs. skill. Its like an MMORPG that you need to spend a ton of time to get to the level cap. Then you need to spend 100x more time just to unlock whats left. How in the **** is that personal evidence from a small sample size.
Lets try math.
Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700 Average IP per game: 100 284,700/100 = 2847 games Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times. 2847 x 30 = 85410 minutes 1423.5 hours 59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short.
On July 28 2011 04:43 Cytokinesis wrote: Why doesn't everyone just be quiet unless you have actual factual statements to say rather than personal diatribe about why one game is better. I hate idiots who talk in absolutes, and the only thing I hate more than that is people who talk in absolutes on purely personal evidence from a very small sample size (Alaron).
Talk about pros and cons or why things are good or why they are bad. Just saying something is bad with nothing to back up the statement is of absolutely no merit and is a post for something like 4chan.
Are you kidding me? I'm not basing anything on personal evidence. HAHA what a joke. What a direct attack. I've done nothing but list the cons of LoL and briefly explain why it shouldn't be the premier competitive MOBA because it lacks in time played vs. skill. Its like an MMORPG that you need to spend a ton of time to get to the level cap. Then you need to spend 100x more time just to unlock whats left. How in the **** is that personal evidence from a small sample size.
Lets try math.
Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700 Average IP per game: 100 284,700/100 = 2847 games Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times. 2847 x 30 = 85410 minutes 1423.5 hours 59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short.
You don't need to unlock everything cause there's free champion rotations and people looking to improve are going to play one champion or role over and over to learn it, not try all 80 champions in 1 week.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
There are many reasons and most have already been mentionned. Let's take it "chronogically" from the start of the game. INB4 HUGE WALLS OF TEXT
- Most of the time, the junglers will start their jungling route with the Blue golem, so they have enough mana/cdr to clear the jungle swiftly and hopefully having enough health left for an early gank. Teams usually scatter around to scout, or sit with 5 man on a bush hoping someone will facecheck like a boss (this really doesnt happen in decent level games). Because of Clairvoyance (a summoner spell 99,9% of the time taken by the support aka wardbot (crystal maiden pretty much), there are usually mindgames involved if the teams are agressive enough. It's pretty common for teams to invade (depending on their team comps and the summoner spells taken, teams with heavy lvl 1 CC and 1/2 exhausts/ignite will usually do so against team with a less brutal lvl 1). Oftentimes, the weaker team will back off if they see the stronger enemy team coming at them. Another very used (especially at higher level) tactic is that the stronger team will not bother trying to go for first blood, but just take the whole "lizard" part of their enemy jungle, or at least their Wraiths (big loss of xp/gold weakening the enemy's jungler by a LOT), giving them an edge on xp/gold without losing really anything. It's especially strong if you're on the purple side because you can give "red buff" (dot+slow on hit) to your ranged AD carry and he doesnt waste time running to bottom lane afterwards (bottom lane is 95% of the time Ranged AD carry and hard support). Another common strat is to ward the bush next to the enemy lizard, and your team will then try to sneak just before he kills it and hopefully steal it or even kill the jungler, oftentimes giving double buff to your mid player, giving him a HUGE advantage. There are also other possibilities but I'm not going to list everything.
AFAIK : sometimes people will try to group up and go for a lvl 1 first blood in DotA, but it's nowhere near systematic, and has way less subtlety (group up, go somewhere, if an enemy tumbles on them, bang first blood.
Laning phase wise. Teleport ganks, usually done by the top lane or sometimes by the mid lane, generally by someone with a big burst/cc. Your team puts a ward somewhere in the bottom bush or the tribush and here comes a gank. This kind of happens on DotA and is pretty much what is the most fun in the game, when everybody tps one after the other on a turret to join a fight. But you can't "hide it" like you can in LoL, it's much more straightforward (and the particles are huge). Those tp ganks are usually coordinated with a jungler gank, making it 4v2 and generally resulting in a kill if the enemy is not careful. Also, some champions have "globals" ultimate, kind of like Zeus in DotA, that are used to add some damage and/or cc to help a gank or a countergank (Ashe/Ezreal/gangplank/karthus) or even teleports (Shen/Twisted Fate/Nocturne) the person near the allies/ennemies. The downside of that is that the empty lanes will generally be pushed in return, damaging towers heavily, giving the enemy uncontested farm and lowering the gankers own farm. A failed TP gank is DISASTROUS. for the top lane. Even killing someone is sometimes not worth it.
During the laning phase in general, every lane has to be aware of your own and your ennemies' buffs respawns to try snatching them. It's pretty similar to runes, except you only have to pick up runes and that's it, you have to kill strong, powerful mobs for the buffs, and you most of the time take quite a bit of damage doing it; also, the buffs are in the jungles, not sitting in the river, which makes it safer to get your owns (but those buffs are often warded by enemies !) and VERY dangerous to try to steal your ennemies, unless you just killed one/several people. Those buffs also make for more choices when you get an advantage by killing someone. Killing the enemy mid lane and/or the jungler can make it very tempting to try to snatch enemy buffs, instead of just pushing. Another thing, is that this is FOUR buffs, with nothing random about them we're talking about, instead of a random rune whose effect can completely change the outcome of trying to pick them up and pop at one of 2 random places.
One of the most important thing in LoL is the drake(or dragon) control. located at a pretty much sat a place symetric to Nashor (Roshan, we'll talk about it later). It's is a very, very strong mob, immune to ccs, who does tons of damage early game (and scales up, as every mob/creep in the game, with time), spawns at 5:00, gives a good amount of experience and most of all 190 global gold ( = per player). It respawns every 6 minutes. Getting dragons early game is obviously very important, and the practicalities are similar to those mentionned above. teleport to a ward from top lane for instance make it an at most 5v4 to contest the dragon, and the weaker team will usually not try to fight them up front, at most try to steal it (ideally with smite, sometimes with global or long range ultimates, it happens a LOT (ashe/lux/ezreal ults...). It also comes in the category of reasons of why "deaths in LoL ARE actually punishing". Because if you just ganked the bottom lane and ideally they died, you have a pretty much guaranteed "free dragon" which MORE THAN COMPENSATES the loss of gold that would have had to suffer a dead opponent in DotA. In this category you obviously find the "buffs you get from dead opponents" too... Losing a dragon and not knowing his death timer is also crippling, as the other team will be able to gather just as it spawns and zerg it without you having the time to realize it, and while losing 1 dragon isnt too big of a deal, losing 3+ is HUGE, and can make up for losing the lanes, but requires very good timings and communication (and warding ! )
Then come Nashor himself, spawning at 15:00. Though he is obviously LoL's Roshan, the mechanics and strategies around him are actually very different. In DotA most of the time, you "dare" kill Roshan when your team already has a big advantage and your creeps are pushing hard, so you can get away with doing it without much risk. "Sneaking" Roshans (or Kongors in HoN) generally ends up either in an unsuccessful retreat after your opponents show up, or in disaster as they rape you doing it. Both of those happen very often (much, much more often than in DotA actually, where you most of games end with neither team having really tried to kill it) in LoL. Several reasons : It gives a lot of experience and 300 global gold, and a 5:00 buff giving lots of stats and big regeneration boosts, that can completely turn a game around (no item though). As a matter of fact, a very big part of the late game in LoL works around baron. It needs to be warded at all times and you need to be very careful not to show up at the other side of the map when the opponents are likely to zerg it. The buff can literally turn a game around, especially if your opponents steal it while you were doing it (the famous aoe stuns/silents hitting the jungler who then can't smite, or the 'ultimates' steal). Some champions, if they have a good farm, can even solo him (those with huge lifesteal and strong DPS, obviously) but it's really dangerous. Warding and counterwarding is insanely important there, having oracles or spare wards can completely change the course of the game. Whatever happens, the team with the buff, if they didnt get completely destroyed early/mid game and group up together for a push, is much more dangerous than without. They also gain a big health and mana regeneration, favorising slow, / poky pushes. The team without the buff will usually try to "stall" the game for 5 minutes, either by preventing them to push too hard, often sacrificing a tower or even an inhibitor (= a rax, except it respawns after a while). Some will try to backdoor or split push if they have the right champions, forcing the enemy team to split if they're not confident they can end the game, or losing side lanes towers, or even inhibitors. These split pushes / backdoor also happen a lot at bottom lane to bait a team into ganking the split pusher, and losing a Baron (works especially well with globals obviously). Tons of mind games and running around is involved in these situations, in my opinion with much more subtlety and differences than in DotA when the only change is that someone will have an Ankh. Also,losing racks is so much more crucial in DotA that you can't really "give them up" anyway, it makes the game tons more difficult to win, when it's only a "problem" in LoL. A big one, but nothing huge. LoL gives more decision making in that: Should we kill this guy and stop the split push ? Force a fight right now at our tower ? At Baron ? the fact that LoL depends less on a single "hard carry" and more on the team as a whole late game also makes for very different possibilities late game, there is much more decision making about who to engage first and who to focus, and as the fights late game are very rarely as "instagibbing" as in DotA, it's not only (though it DOES happen) a : you initiate now and there and throw everything hoping it will kill the enemy carry and others. Decisions change and evolve more in teamfights, and can turn around much more easily than DotA's, a big reason being more "spammy" as you like to say, skills, especially with Cooldown Reduction. Most non-hard-carries in DotA do nothing for 13-15 seconds after using their abilities/combo, they either retreat or autoattack stuff. Obviously, factoring in the summoner spells add even more to the equation. Also, completely losing a teamfight in DotA mid/late game is DEVASTATING because you will usually lose several towers and/or racks because of that, putting you in an extremly difficult position. It's not quite as bad in LoL because of 1 :no gold loss 2inhibitors respawning >several champions actually do stuff in the team late game, not only one, so you don't have to keep your only carry in base pushing off supercreeps. 3 Baron. This is kind of double-edged here. But when you win a teamfight and are able to push freely to the racks in DotA, you do it. You don't go to Roshan. In LoL, it is actually often more beneficial to get the baron and then pushing, even if it results in your team actually not pushing at all. However, if the "winning team" ends up very low health, as they don't have "tps" as in DotA, if they push until the enemy respawns, they will then have to go back to base via the 8 seconds "recall". And in the meanwhile, the respawning team might very well rush to baron and do it, especially late game when your team has a huge dps. And this team will usually be in the better position, even having lost a teamfight and having its lanes pushed. More decision making. In early game, you can pretty much make the same argument and replace Baron with Dragon. AND stealing enemy buffs is also very, very important late game, especially if some champions are much more powerful with them (AP carries with blues, AD carries with reds). A team with 2 blues and 2 reds probably has a better chance of winning a teamfight that a team with baron buff. I genuinely think it is more interesting than your carry snatching the rune hoping it will be a double damage. The fact that a lot of champions actually "do stuff" and are not cattered to "niche" roles (the hard carry autoattacks stuff, the support ward everywhere but is pretty much absent from teamfight, the other make their combos then back the fuck off or autoattack stuff) and that the targeting priorities and evolving decision making can change a lot, and in a split second make the team as a whole much more important that simply trying to protect your hard carry by CCing stuff hoping he doesnt get gibbed (most will have their BKB anyway, yay you can't do anything but autoattacking me to try to kill me, derp, doesnt exist in LoL). It's really not explainable if you haven't played it yourself, but a support can actually win the teamfight by itself in LoL, given a good opportunity and seizing it (great janna ultimate perfectly splitting the enemy team, great alistar engage, soraka silencing an extremly dangerous enemy (not necessary a carry) or taric stunning him... Blink daggers of DotA also make for some pretty ridiculous engages ( Enigma / earthshaker ). Sure, there are LOTS of strong engages in LoL, but they won't win a teamfight against a good team as people can actually build items to counter the bursts/ccs. In DotA most people can't really afford to diverge from their core build for "luxuries" and even then it's usually not enough. While even the strongest engages/combos in LoL can be countered relatively easily (annie/amumu...). I've seen several DotA games where the AD carry ended up playin quite literally alone, with sometimes ankh and buying back several times.
Meh, so I just wrote that in one shot, it's probably pretty horrible to read and I certainly missed a lot of stuff, but I need to leave soon and I'll probably edit it later. I'm always opened to criticism and discussion as long as it's not "RETARDED KIDDO LOL". I know I can seem coarse writing some of that stuff, but I'm not really trying to be agressive, usually the idiocy of some of the haters take its toll to my gentleness though. Cheers !
PS : Oh, and stop making me say what I didnt say, some people above are implying I said "HoN is sinking lol everybody's leaving" or "DotA has no teamwork". I never said that at all. Making stuff up just to add to your arguments doesn't work.
Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Since I have your attention though can you explain why LoL has the most teamwork out of any MOBA? A lot of people made that claim and I'm looking for an explanation and no one seems to have an answer.
There are many reasons and most have already been mentionned. Let's take it "chronogically" from the start of the game. INB4 HUGE WALLS OF TEXT
- Most of the time, the junglers will start their jungling route with the Blue golem, so they have enough mana/cdr to clear the jungle swiftly and hopefully having enough health left for an early gank. Teams usually scatter around to scout, or sit with 5 man on a bush hoping someone will facecheck like a boss (this really doesnt happen in decent level games). Because of Clairvoyance (a summoner spell 99,9% of the time taken by the support aka wardbot (crystal maiden pretty much), there are usually mindgames involved if the teams are agressive enough. It's pretty common for teams to invade (depending on their team comps and the summoner spells taken, teams with heavy lvl 1 CC and 1/2 exhausts/ignite will usually do so against team with a less brutal lvl 1). Oftentimes, the weaker team will back off if they see the stronger enemy team coming at them. Another very used (especially at higher level) tactic is that the stronger team will not bother trying to go for first blood, but just take the whole "lizard" part of their enemy jungle, or at least their Wraiths (big loss of xp/gold weakening the enemy's jungler by a LOT), giving them an edge on xp/gold without losing really anything. It's especially strong if you're on the purple side because you can give "red buff" (dot+slow on hit) to your ranged AD carry and he doesnt waste time running to bottom lane afterwards (bottom lane is 95% of the time Ranged AD carry and hard support). Another common strat is to ward the bush next to the enemy lizard, and your team will then try to sneak just before he kills it and hopefully steal it or even kill the jungler, oftentimes giving double buff to your mid player, giving him a HUGE advantage. There are also other possibilities but I'm not going to list everything.
AFAIK : sometimes people will try to group up and go for a lvl 1 first blood in DotA, but it's nowhere near systematic, and has way less subtlety (group up, go somewhere, if an enemy tumbles on them, bang first blood.
Laning phase wise. Teleport ganks, usually done by the top lane or sometimes by the mid lane, generally by someone with a big burst/cc. Your team puts a ward somewhere in the bottom bush or the tribush and here comes a gank. This kind of happens on DotA and is pretty much what is the most fun in the game, when everybody tps one after the other on a turret to join a fight. But you can't "hide it" like you can in LoL, it's much more straightforward (and the particles are huge). Those tp ganks are usually coordinated with a jungler gank, making it 4v2 and generally resulting in a kill if the enemy is not careful. Also, some champions have "globals" ultimate, kind of like Zeus in DotA, that are used to add some damage and/or cc to help a gank or a countergank (Ashe/Ezreal/gangplank/karthus) or even teleports (Shen/Twisted Fate/Nocturne) the person near the allies/ennemies. The downside of that is that the empty lanes will generally be pushed in return, damaging towers heavily, giving the enemy uncontested farm and lowering the gankers own farm. A failed TP gank is DISASTROUS. for the top lane. Even killing someone is sometimes not worth it.
During the laning phase in general, every lane has to be aware of your own and your ennemies' buffs respawns to try snatching them. It's pretty similar to runes, except you only have to pick up runes and that's it, you have to kill strong, powerful mobs for the buffs, and you most of the time take quite a bit of damage doing it; also, the buffs are in the jungles, not sitting in the river, which makes it safer to get your owns (but those buffs are often warded by enemies !) and VERY dangerous to try to steal your ennemies, unless you just killed one/several people. Those buffs also make for more choices when you get an advantage by killing someone. Killing the enemy mid lane and/or the jungler can make it very tempting to try to snatch enemy buffs, instead of just pushing. Another thing, is that this is FOUR buffs, with nothing random about them we're talking about, instead of a random rune whose effect can completely change the outcome of trying to pick them up and pop at one of 2 random places.
One of the most important thing in LoL is the drake(or dragon) control. located at a pretty much sat a place symetric to Nashor (Roshan, we'll talk about it later). It's is a very, very strong mob, immune to ccs, who does tons of damage early game (and scales up, as every mob/creep in the game, with time), spawns at 5:00, gives a good amount of experience and most of all 190 global gold ( = per player). It respawns every 6 minutes. Getting dragons early game is obviously very important, and the practicalities are similar to those mentionned above. teleport to a ward from top lane for instance make it an at most 5v4 to contest the dragon, and the weaker team will usually not try to fight them up front, at most try to steal it (ideally with smite, sometimes with global or long range ultimates, it happens a LOT (ashe/lux/ezreal ults...). It also comes in the category of reasons of why "deaths in LoL ARE actually punishing". Because if you just ganked the bottom lane and ideally they died, you have a pretty much guaranteed "free dragon" which MORE THAN COMPENSATES the loss of gold that would have had to suffer a dead opponent in DotA. In this category you obviously find the "buffs you get from dead opponents" too... Losing a dragon and not knowing his death timer is also crippling, as the other team will be able to gather just as it spawns and zerg it without you having the time to realize it, and while losing 1 dragon isnt too big of a deal, losing 3+ is HUGE, and can make up for losing the lanes, but requires very good timings and communication (and warding ! )
Then come Nashor himself, spawning at 15:00. Though he is obviously LoL's Roshan, the mechanics and strategies around him are actually very different. In DotA most of the time, you "dare" kill Roshan when your team already has a big advantage and your creeps are pushing hard, so you can get away with doing it without much risk. "Sneaking" Roshans (or Kongors in HoN) generally ends up either in an unsuccessful retreat after your opponents show up, or in disaster as they rape you doing it. Both of those happen very often (much, much more often than in DotA actually, where you most of games end with neither team having really tried to kill it) in LoL. Several reasons : It gives a lot of experience and 300 global gold, and a 5:00 buff giving lots of stats and big regeneration boosts, that can completely turn a game around (no item though). As a matter of fact, a very big part of the late game in LoL works around baron. It needs to be warded at all times and you need to be very careful not to show up at the other side of the map when the opponents are likely to zerg it. The buff can literally turn a game around, especially if your opponents steal it while you were doing it (the famous aoe stuns/silents hitting the jungler who then can't smite, or the 'ultimates' steal). Some champions, if they have a good farm, can even solo him (those with huge lifesteal and strong DPS, obviously) but it's really dangerous. Warding and counterwarding is insanely important there, having oracles or spare wards can completely change the course of the game. Whatever happens, the team with the buff, if they didnt get completely destroyed early/mid game and group up together for a push, is much more dangerous than without. They also gain a big health and mana regeneration, favorising slow, / poky pushes. The team without the buff will usually try to "stall" the game for 5 minutes, either by preventing them to push too hard, often sacrificing a tower or even an inhibitor (= a rax, except it respawns after a while). Some will try to backdoor or split push if they have the right champions, forcing the enemy team to split if they're not confident they can end the game, or losing side lanes towers, or even inhibitors. These split pushes / backdoor also happen a lot at bottom lane to bait a team into ganking the split pusher, and losing a Baron (works especially well with globals obviously). Tons of mind games and running around is involved in these situations, in my opinion with much more subtlety and differences than in DotA when the only change is that someone will have an Ankh. Also,losing racks is so much more crucial in DotA that you can't really "give them up" anyway, it makes the game tons more difficult to win, when it's only a "problem" in LoL. A big one, but nothing huge. LoL gives more decision making in that: Should we kill this guy and stop the split push ? Force a fight right now at our tower ? At Baron ? the fact that LoL depends less on a single "hard carry" and more on the team as a whole late game also makes for very different possibilities late game, there is much more decision making about who to engage first and who to focus, and as the fights late game are very rarely as "instagibbing" as in DotA, it's not only (though it DOES happen) a : you initiate now and there and throw everything hoping it will kill the enemy carry and others. Decisions change and evolve more in teamfights, and can turn around much more easily than DotA's, a big reason being more "spammy" as you like to say, skills, especially with Cooldown Reduction. Most non-hard-carries in DotA do nothing for 13-15 seconds after using their abilities/combo, they either retreat or autoattack stuff. Obviously, factoring in the summoner spells add even more to the equation. Also, completely losing a teamfight in DotA mid/late game is DEVASTATING because you will usually lose several towers and/or racks because of that, putting you in an extremly difficult position. It's not quite as bad in LoL because of 1 :no gold loss 2inhibitors respawning >several champions actually do stuff in the team late game, not only one, so you don't have to keep your only carry in base pushing off supercreeps. 3 Baron. This is kind of double-edged here. But when you win a teamfight and are able to push freely to the racks in DotA, you do it. You don't go to Roshan. In LoL, it is actually often more beneficial to get the baron and then pushing, even if it results in your team actually not pushing at all. However, if the "winning team" ends up very low health, as they don't have "tps" as in DotA, if they push until the enemy respawns, they will then have to go back to base via the 8 seconds "recall". And in the meanwhile, the respawning team might very well rush to baron and do it, especially late game when your team has a huge dps. And this team will usually be in the better position, even having lost a teamfight and having its lanes pushed. More decision making. In early game, you can pretty much make the same argument and replace Baron with Dragon. AND stealing enemy buffs is also very, very important late game, especially if some champions are much more powerful with them (AP carries with blues, AD carries with reds). A team with 2 blues and 2 reds probably has a better chance of winning a teamfight that a team with baron buff. I genuinely think it is more interesting than your carry snatching the rune hoping it will be a double damage. The fact that a lot of champions actually "do stuff" and are not cattered to "niche" roles (the hard carry autoattacks stuff, the support ward everywhere but is pretty much absent from teamfight, the other make their combos then back the fuck off or autoattack stuff) and that the targeting priorities and evolving decision making can change a lot, and in a split second make the team as a whole much more important that simply trying to protect your hard carry by CCing stuff hoping he doesnt get gibbed (most will have their BKB anyway, yay you can't do anything but autoattacking me to try to kill me, derp, doesnt exist in LoL). It's really not explainable if you haven't played it yourself, but a support can actually win the teamfight by itself in LoL, given a good opportunity and seizing it (great janna ultimate perfectly splitting the enemy team, great alistar engage, soraka silencing an extremly dangerous enemy (not necessary a carry) or taric stunning him... Blink daggers of DotA also make for some pretty ridiculous engages ( Enigma / earthshaker ). Sure, there are LOTS of strong engages in LoL, but they won't win a teamfight against a good team as people can actually build items to counter the bursts/ccs. In DotA most people can't really afford to diverge from their core build for "luxuries" and even then it's usually not enough. While even the strongest engages/combos in LoL can be countered relatively easily (annie/amumu...). I've seen several DotA games where the AD carry ended up playin quite literally alone, with sometimes ankh and buying back several times.
Meh, so I just wrote that in one shot, it's probably pretty horrible to read and I certainly missed a lot of stuff, but I need to leave soon and I'll probably edit it later. I'm always opened to criticism and discussion as long as it's not "RETARDED KIDDO LOL". I know I can seem coarse writing some of that stuff, but I'm not really trying to be agressive, usually the idiocy of some of the haters take its toll to my gentleness though. Cheers !
PS : Oh, and stop making me say what I didnt say, some people above are implying I said "HoN is sinking lol everybody's leaving" or "DotA has no teamwork". I never said that at all. Making stuff up just to add to your arguments doesn't work.
Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Agreed I will probably write up a article somewhere outlining the major differences between the two and why they matter so much once I finish hitting 30 in LoL and see where MM goes.
On July 28 2011 05:36 Alaron wrote: Agreed I will probably write up a article somewhere outlining the major differences between the two and why they matter so much once I finish hitting 30 in LoL and see where MM goes.
And please write an article about WoW's PvE when you hit 85. On a non-trollish note though, a serious article about that (non biased and using both sides of the arguments in the differences) would be welcome. My wall of text was just what came out of my mind writing and isn't really organized anyway.
Well from someone who favors HoN, the metagame is way too much based on Hard Carries, so Micro did get that right even if it was on accident (it's for different reasons than said in his post).
Now while you do support the claim of why you think teamwork in LoL stands alone, the majority of that post is simply explaining decisions, with most occuring in Dota/HoN, where every single one is debatable on which decisions are more tense/risky/rewarding/hard to make (not worth debating because bias will too easily rule that argument).
The best points you make in defense of LoL don't have to do with why teamwork is better (respawning Inhibitors is the best example of this). While you did overstate the severity of losing a mid-game fight in HoN, it is certainly a less forgiving game. That said, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is a good thing when opposed with an equal lack of consequences.
But once again, very little actually shows why you think LoL has more teamwork, and these few areas are opinionated instead of proven by contrasting it with Dota/Hon. You made it seem like Baron gives a much larger advantage, while the only difference is ankh swapped with Exalted. There are many different types of openings in Dota/Hon (moreso in dota) before the laning phase involving different aspects of the early game (rune/pulls/wards/mid ganks/jungle ganks/tri-lane picks) which honestly seem to outnumber the very common high level LoL openings. Things like buff control is pretty different then the larger amounts of ganks and rune control in HoN, but even ignoring the fact that HoN has similiar things to worry about in the laning phase, it doesn't require a more coordinated team to jump through these different types of hoops. This idea applies to all of your argument, as it kind of misses the mark. Once again I've played LoL with very good players and while it was written finely that fact made it a tough read.
For example, if I wanted to prove that BLC had more teamwork than HoN, I'd mention how much more importance there is in the slightes of actions, and it demands much more perfection in three people's synergy than a fight in HoN. People are saying that LoL sticks out teamwork-wise, and dragons that force teamfights every 6 minutes doesn't cut it.
On July 28 2011 05:36 Alaron wrote: Agreed I will probably write up a article somewhere outlining the major differences between the two and why they matter so much once I finish hitting 30 in LoL and see where MM goes.
And please write an article about WoW's PvE when you hit 85. On a non-trollish note though, a serious article about that (non biased and using both sides of the arguments in the differences) would be welcome. My wall of text was just what came out of my mind writing and isn't really organized anyway.
a serious article would be pointless because people should just play what they enjoy (this is A PC GAME) and writing a wall of text isnt going to change anybodys mind about it. just need people to stop posting trollbaits because this thread is awfully reminiscent of BW vs SC2 threads
if you're going to say why you like something more do it right
You have to be fair however, it's pretty difficult to put up a solid argument on explaining "teamplay" without taking a long time and using video examples and stuff, even then... meh. You can argue about that in most games really. Anyway, reinstalling HoN to play some Pebbles mid. (Or Deadwood ? who's the trendiest "gibber" ? : p)
On July 28 2011 05:56 Microchaton wrote: Yeah, my walls of text drifted quite a bit :p
You have to be fair however, it's pretty difficult to put up a solid argument on explaining "teamplay" without taking a long time and using video examples and stuff, even then... meh. You can argue about that in most games really. Anyway, reinstalling HoN to play some Pebbles mid. (Or Deadwood ? who's the trendiest "gibber" ? : p)
That's almost my point. If you asked me to prove why HoN has more teamwork than LoL, I'd be hard pressed to do so. This is why I never made that claim (even though after this I honestly don't even know if you did =P). In my example with BLC the reason it's easy to explain is because it obviously has more teamwork. While MSI is impressive with their insane aoe coordination against Infs, it simply doesn't require the coordination that Hafu's team has which they stomp SK with. It's not easy with HoN or LoL because the teamwork is not significantly more prevalent in either of them.
I don't know if it's still that way in Hon, but the stuff he talks about in there (3-2, omnistat heroes, etc) are so outdated that they're not relevant at all in Dota. Also no one in Dota only expects supports to only wardbitch / babysit either; they're really the play makers of current Dota and at the highest levels the most interesting to play / watch imo.
DotAwise speaking: the fact that he calls tundra an anticarry, which he is NOT, is bad enough. not to mention the 3 carry strat was SMM 2009, people forget that the main scene leading up to then was very much gank oriented and SMM 2009 pretty much turned the entire dota scene upside down (as other things have in the past). and fyi, the 3 carry strat was an innovative strat for its time because with the exception of one hero it involved a lot of elements in the game which had not been changed for several versions, the fact that he calls it disgusting only shows that he has very little appreciation for metagame transitions anyway
I don't know if it's still that way in Hon, but the stuff he talks about in there (3-2, omnistat heroes, etc) are so outdated that they're not relevant at all in Dota. Also no one in Dota only expects supports to only wardbitch / babysit either; they're really the play makers of current Dota and at the highest levels the most interesting to play / watch imo.
Every point you just made implies that you misread those sections. Troof.
Wow I've been playing this game since about september and I never realized how quickly it was growin guntil I actually tuned into dreamhack and seeing the insane number of viewers haha. Im really happy there are othe games being so successful as an esport because when esports grows, then the SC2 scene grows, and things just get better : ).
I don't know if it's still that way in Hon, but the stuff he talks about in there (3-2, omnistat heroes, etc) are so outdated that they're not relevant at all in Dota. Also no one in Dota only expects supports to only wardbitch / babysit either; they're really the play makers of current Dota and at the highest levels the most interesting to play / watch imo.
Every point you just made implies that you misread those sections. Troof.
I think your choice of naming them hard carries made it a bit misleading, for me that term refers to heroes like The Dark Lady, Chronus/Darkterror, Mortred, etc. I haven't followed the HoN competitive scene at all, only used to do so with Dota, so I may be wrong, but what I got from that text wasn't specifc about hard carries at all, but mostly for carries that are much better at lower levels, like Puppet Master, Valk/PotM, etc, or heroes that weren't even carries at all before. I doubt those strats would work with Darkterror,Mortred and Spectre on the same team.
I actually agree with a lot on that post, but the reaction you received probally has a lot to do with that choice of words.
Love it or hate it, it's popular, people seem to enjoy it and it's competitive. Rather or not it has merit as competitive doesn't matter. It is, you or I weighing how it is or is not will not change it. Frankly the very way you can ban champions in competitive play make it hard to speak about balance issues considering you have an entire subgame on picks and bans of champions.
I wish Riot the best, they seem to love doing it, people like watching(check the front page of own3dtv its nearly all LoL streams) and I personally feel it has both an ease of entry and a complexity that keeps people playing it. Easy to learn, hard to master I think is the wording I'd use.
I don't know if it's still that way in Hon, but the stuff he talks about in there (3-2, omnistat heroes, etc) are so outdated that they're not relevant at all in Dota. Also no one in Dota only expects supports to only wardbitch / babysit either; they're really the play makers of current Dota and at the highest levels the most interesting to play / watch imo.
Every point you just made implies that you misread those sections. Troof.
I don't see how. Current Comp Dota's gameplay doesn't reflect anything talked about in this article. I don't know if Hon hasn't caught on to the metagame shifts, or it's simply evolved differently that it's still having the problems Dota players were complaining about 2 years ago. Either way, this is all stuff I've read about way in the past.
I've always thought of it this way. In the end, the point of games is to have fun, right? I'm pretty sure this is undeniable. Why would so many people play it if it wasn't fun? Therefore, that means LoL is pretty fun, which means it accomplishes the main goal of gaming exceptionally well, meaning it is a good game.
I used to play LoL, but after a while I honestly found the game to be boring. None of my friends played it, so I always played with random teammates, and I always got awful teams. And even though the community is a bit more accepting than say DotA or HoN's community (trust me I've been a part of those communities and frankly newbs are not welcome), players of lesser skill often get trolled really bad. By the end of my LoL career, I think I had resorted to just posting troll-type threads on the LoL forum because it was funny and so many people took what I said so seriously.
However, this thread has made me reconsider LoL so I just started re-DLing it; we'll see how good this game truly is.
On July 28 2011 08:09 CosmicAC wrote: I've always thought of it this way. In the end, the point of games is to have fun, right? I'm pretty sure this is undeniable. Why would so many people play it if it wasn't fun? Therefore, that means LoL is pretty fun, which means it accomplishes the main goal of gaming exceptionally well, meaning it is a good game.
I haven't played LoL so I have no strong opinion on it. I'll just say that is dangerous logic. Popular opinion very often doesn't speak to the quality of something. People vote for crooked candidates, buy inferior products, and...play bad games all the time for a lot of very poor reasons.
Sometimes the sheep are right. They're still sheep.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Having tons of players =/= "legit". I don't care how many players it has, it still has terrible balance, is awfully casual and has a terrible community in general. It's still the worst of the MOBA games and is much less than HoN, let alone DotA.
It's like... the Britney Spears or Justin Bieber of gaming. It has a huge fanbase, but that doesn't make it suck any less at all.
On July 28 2011 07:17 broz0rs wrote: this type of press release looks as if they (RIOT) are interested in raising capital or getting acquired for an insane amount of money.
Riot actually already got bought by Tencent QQ like half a year ago.
Kind of gross the bias of both lol and hon/dota players in this thread. Hon is about much more than just carry farming as you can see by how hard msi is raping with push strats lately. Yes hon is a harder mechanical game but lol tends to be much more about objectives, yes the individual skill cap is higher for dota due to more micro but team wise they both require an amazing amount of synergy and team practice to be good at, and in hon the only real exciting lane is the tri lane in current meta, while the solo lanes in lol especially after the new uber top lane nerfs are much more involved outside of farming. And to be completely honest lol is by far the superior game since hon is just a dota reskin+ui remake.
I find trilanes to me more boring and annoying to play and watch than anything else tbh... I feel like having a jungler feels more "right" :/ And I already though that before playing LoL. It's just awkward.
I like some of the mechanics they implemented in LoL (Ability points etc.), but for the most part they are focusing on casuals and it's the main reason game has succeeded (that and it being F2P). Things like adding 30 levels, which any at least slightly competitive player will reach in few weeks, shows that they wanted to 'hook' casuals up by introducing the favorite part of casual gamers - grinding. This sort of gimmick shouldn't have a place in any competitive game. This is exactly why MMOs are so popular, people enjoy their 'skill' to be measured by artificial means like levels/items/new skills instead of actually becoming better at the game at hand.
It took them so many years to implement a half-assed observer system, yet they have no problem flooding the game with new champions every few weeks and not giving a shit about balance.
Basically it's a decent game and it's not as bad as an average HoN/DotA fanboy makes it out to be, but what turns me off the most is the attitude of Devs who obviously care about making money off casuals instead of making the game a good E-sport.
League of Legends seems like a really easy game with a low skill ceiling until you actually play it.
Having playing Brood War for a long ass time, I can say it's harder to climb the LoL ladder than it is to climb iCCup.
What makes the game fun is that it is "imbalanced" but the thing is, it's not like a 1v1 thing where you have fucking rockpaperscissors like in StarCraft. If you get outpicked herowise in LoL, you have 4 other heroes on your team to compensate, so actually LoL is more balanced than StarCraft 2.
The leveling and ranking system makes the game good for "Casuals" since it separates them from higher level players. Furthermore, it requires interaction with your team, which may not be the case for SC2 players who just 1v1 over and over again.
SC2 on the other hand, I know plenty of my friends who play SC2 casually (ie 1 hour a week) have reached diamond league, where they play with weirdass cheese strategies. If SC2 was anything like LoL they would never ever be even close to playing with comparatively high level players.
For the skill ceiling, if anyone thinks they're good enough at gaming and could easily hit the skill ceiling cap of LoL, go ahead and try.
Sure in 1 month of 10 hour a day playing you will reach the "skill ceiling" of the laning phase where you're able to get maximum farm, and then you will know the optimal items to get (Note, people who have been playing for over a year sometimes are unable to do this) Yet some who do this easily climb to the top of the ladder, while others are mysteriously stuck and unable to climb up which shows that LoL does have some element of skill involved.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Let us hail the king. For now, the situation is clear. The dominant esport of our ages is League of Legends. Sure - SC2 is a decent game and interesting following, but the real success of real time strategyof our era, the defining business model and most successful gameplay idea is that of LoL's. Cheers!
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile
Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit...
MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me!
But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
a few of us in the hon/dota thread came up with the name "Team Role Playing Strategy" or TRPS, which kind of fits for all the games since AoS doesnt make sense for anybody who didnt know what Aeon of Strife was (its more of the insider name anyway) and is more telling of the gameplay than "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena". RP because it draws aspects from RPGs and everybody on the team has a different "role", strategy because it derives from RTS and has very similar elements, and team cause you're with a team just like in team deathmatch/CTF. the only games TRPS doesnt fit with are the ones that are controlled by one guy, but those arent really played anyway, and the nice thing is that all these games except for maybe BLC can fit under it
As pen and paper roleplayer, I like this name even less. MMO's are hardly Role Playing, but have a semi-storyline. LoL and the like is definitely not roleplaying except as a branch-off from MMO styled spell battles.
If tower defence was not already a genre of games, it would be a much more appropriate name.
a free blink every few minutes coupled with no gold loss on death makes this game a bit casual and rewards passive farming over active ganks, but other that that the game isnt as nooby as many people claim.
On July 28 2011 11:21 tobi9999 wrote: League of Legends seems like a really easy game with a low skill ceiling until you actually play it.
Having playing Brood War for a long ass time, I can say it's harder to climb the LoL ladder than it is to climb iCCup.
What makes the game fun is that it is "imbalanced" but the thing is, it's not like a 1v1 thing where you have fucking rockpaperscissors like in StarCraft. If you get outpicked herowise in LoL, you have 4 other heroes on your team to compensate, so actually LoL is more balanced than StarCraft 2.
The leveling and ranking system makes the game good for "Casuals" since it separates them from higher level players. Furthermore, it requires interaction with your team, which may not be the case for SC2 players who just 1v1 over and over again.
SC2 on the other hand, I know plenty of my friends who play SC2 casually (ie 1 hour a week) have reached diamond league, where they play with weirdass cheese strategies. If SC2 was anything like LoL they would never ever be even close to playing with comparatively high level players.
For the skill ceiling, if anyone thinks they're good enough at gaming and could easily hit the skill ceiling cap of LoL, go ahead and try.
Sure in 1 month of 10 hour a day playing you will reach the "skill ceiling" of the laning phase where you're able to get maximum farm, and then you will know the optimal items to get (Note, people who have been playing for over a year sometimes are unable to do this) Yet some who do this easily climb to the top of the ladder, while others are mysteriously stuck and unable to climb up which shows that LoL does have some element of skill involved.
I do believe you're confusing different with harder/easier. sc2 is really made for 1v1 while lol is made for 5v5.That aspect of teamplay is more or less completely absent making it a poor comparison imo. Diamond league isnt really that impressive if you look at the distribution of the ladder with diamond and above being 15%ish, thats fairly common when compared to 1800 rating+ on lol being top 1k in the region.
Regarding your comment of people being stuck and unable to climb, many deserve it, some dont, but because it is a team game one individual cannot make every situation into a winning game no matter how good. Ofc excellent players will win in more of those situations than others, if you dumped a 1600 rated player back on an account with no rating he would not get back to his rating with straight wins, he would hover at the lower end for a while beforehand, but many of those games would truly be soul destroying.
Regarding the balancing of the game i have to strongly disagree, while draft pick with your team of friends is fairly balanced in lol, individual characters are far from, there is a small pocket of champs that are viable in competetive play while the rest are not, i feel that that is poor balancing.
Yes ofc there is an element of skill to lol, i dont see any reasoning to suggest otherwise, if there wasnt everyone would be like everyone else. It is just such a shame that LoL becoming an esport isnt GREAT because esport is more about how entertaining something is to watch and how noticible the skill difference is rather than how hard it actually is. I get captivated by watching some gsl matches, during dreamhack i could not enjoy watching the games of LoL anywhere near as much as i did watching DotA or sc2, i dont think im a minority here either.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
Haha, I read this entire thread, this was the only thing that made me smile
Anyway, as much as I dislike the game, it's great that LoL is attracting so many players. Not only is it good for e-sports, but also when DotA 2 comes out, a lot more people will be familiar with the moba (ugh) genre and take notice of the game.
Just stand with me and call it an AoS, damnit...
MobA applies to so many different games that keeping it applicable to this genre is silly. Stand with me!
But seriously, the success of LoL is great, hopefully Dota 2 explodes with comparable or better results.
a few of us in the hon/dota thread came up with the name "Team Role Playing Strategy" or TRPS, which kind of fits for all the games since AoS doesnt make sense for anybody who didnt know what Aeon of Strife was (its more of the insider name anyway) and is more telling of the gameplay than "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena". RP because it draws aspects from RPGs and everybody on the team has a different "role", strategy because it derives from RTS and has very similar elements, and team cause you're with a team just like in team deathmatch/CTF. the only games TRPS doesnt fit with are the ones that are controlled by one guy, but those arent really played anyway, and the nice thing is that all these games except for maybe BLC can fit under it
As pen and paper roleplayer, I like this name even less. MMO's are hardly Role Playing, but have a semi-storyline. LoL and the like is definitely not roleplaying except as a branch-off from MMO styled spell battles.
If tower defence was not already a genre of games, it would be a much more appropriate name.
tower defense is really not the name for it these kinds of games, because most of the time it is more than just defending towers. while i understand your background, i think the definition of RPGs has expanded heavily past the old tabletop (and larp) definitions ever since RP video games and whether or not entire genres of RP video games can be argued to not be really RPGs. imo there is really no other way to best describe the hero/champion system with exp and abilities in these games and moba is not the way to go, it is a faceless name. i suppose Team Tactical Role Playing Game (TTRPG) or Team Action Role Playing Game (TARPG or maybe TARPS(trategy), lol) could be used since use of these names (tactical RPG and action RPG) have already deviated far away from the original RPG term
Well one thing the genre really could use is a much shorter name or at least an acronym that's easier to pronounce. That's what makes something like DOTA or MOBA catchy- acronyms pronounced like a two syllable word. TRPS would be Tirps? Trips? Because saying 4-6 letters as letters is a real mouthful. TARPG (tar- pg) is at least pronounceable. The biggest problem is of course getting people to switch. Esperanto is a good idea for an international language- the problem is convincing everyone else to make the switch.
I will agree that the meaning of role playing has vastly changed, even though there is never any 'role' to play.
On July 28 2011 12:41 Falling wrote: Well one thing the genre really could use is a much shorter name or at least an acronym that's easier to pronounce. That's what makes something like DOTA or MOBA catchy- two syllable acronym pronounced like a word. TRPS would be Tirps? Trips? Because saying 4-6 letters as letters is a real mouthful. TARPG (tar- pg) is at least pronounceable. The biggest problem is of course getting people to switch. Esperanto is a good idea for an international language- the problem is convincing everyone else to make the switch.
But I'll stop derailing.
tarps is easy too! and i can get people behind me (at least TL HoN/DotA and other DotA communities) to use this, its more understandable than dota, hon, lol, blc, or aos (or tob) which doesnt make sense to new people at all and more specific than moba
this threads been derailed enough with worse crap anyway
Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700 Average IP per game: 100 284,700/100 = 2847 games Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times. 2847 x 30 = 85410 minutes 1423.5 hours 59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short.
If you're going about systematically acquiring all heroes, you can divide this in two because all heroes rotate through a 50% off sale period. Further, if you're realistically going to play the game you don't want/need all heroes because going in virginal in a decent level game will lose you that game. You need to play a hero at least 4-5 times before you're vaguely competent, and it will usually take you a few games to re-acclimatize to a char until you have 30-50+ games with that char. So lets say you go for a more manageable upper end of 20 heroes, still ridiculous, I've never seen a pro use more than a roster of 10, even when they're using tourney accounts with all champs unlocked. but let's be generous to your argument. 20 champs, 50% 6300, 50% 3150, none of the cheap ones.
94,500 IP (/2 for sales) = 47, 250 IP
so about 10 days played to get yourself a full roster of champs, not much more than leveling a WoW char to be ready to attempt top tier PVP or raiding, not much more than it takes to hit plat or so for a SC2 rookie. Though, honestly, the real cost of having such a deep roster is getting a full set of runes for every scenario. There's a lot of overlap, but most champions have a particular set that they need to be optimised that most others don't share and with a roster as deep as 20 you're going to need most.
Still, it's fairly clear you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you do go about the ludicrous task of unlocking every champ through IP alone, it'll only take half as long as you suggest.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Locodoco telling us wat's up!
It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700 Average IP per game: 100 284,700/100 = 2847 games Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times. 2847 x 30 = 85410 minutes 1423.5 hours 59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short.
If you're going about systematically acquiring all heroes, you can divide this in two because all heroes rotate through a 50% off sale period. Further, if you're realistically going to play the game you don't want/need all heroes because going in virginal in a decent level game will lose you that game. You need to play a hero at least 4-5 times before you're vaguely competent, and it will usually take you a few games to re-acclimatize to a char until you have 30-50+ games with that char. So lets say you go for a more manageable upper end of 20 heroes, still ridiculous, I've never seen a pro use more than a roster of 10, even when they're using tourney accounts with all champs unlocked. but let's be generous to your argument. 20 champs, 50% 6300, 50% 3150, none of the cheap ones.
94,500 IP (/2 for sales) = 47, 250 IP
so about 10 days played to get yourself a full roster of champs, not much more than leveling a WoW char to be ready to attempt top tier PVP or raiding, not much more than it takes to hit plat or so for a SC2 rookie. Though, honestly, the real cost of having such a deep roster is getting a full set of runes for every scenario. There's a lot of overlap, but most champions have a particular set that they need to be optimised that most others don't share and with a roster as deep as 20 you're going to need most.
Still, it's fairly clear you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you do go about the ludicrous task of unlocking every champ through IP alone, it'll only take half as long as you suggest.
Champs don't go on IP sales, only RP sales. So no, the time will not be "halved".
Sum IP of all current heroes: 284,700 Average IP per game: 100 284,700/100 = 2847 games Each game is around about 30 minutes long not including queue times. 2847 x 30 = 85410 minutes 1423.5 hours 59.3125 days
In order to unlock just the champions I need to play almost 60 days not including queue times which of course are very short.
If you're going about systematically acquiring all heroes, you can divide this in two because all heroes rotate through a 50% off sale period. Further, if you're realistically going to play the game you don't want/need all heroes because going in virginal in a decent level game will lose you that game. You need to play a hero at least 4-5 times before you're vaguely competent, and it will usually take you a few games to re-acclimatize to a char until you have 30-50+ games with that char. So lets say you go for a more manageable upper end of 20 heroes, still ridiculous, I've never seen a pro use more than a roster of 10, even when they're using tourney accounts with all champs unlocked. but let's be generous to your argument. 20 champs, 50% 6300, 50% 3150, none of the cheap ones.
94,500 IP (/2 for sales) = 47, 250 IP
so about 10 days played to get yourself a full roster of champs, not much more than leveling a WoW char to be ready to attempt top tier PVP or raiding, not much more than it takes to hit plat or so for a SC2 rookie. Though, honestly, the real cost of having such a deep roster is getting a full set of runes for every scenario. There's a lot of overlap, but most champions have a particular set that they need to be optimised that most others don't share and with a roster as deep as 20 you're going to need most.
Still, it's fairly clear you don't know what you're talking about. Even if you do go about the ludicrous task of unlocking every champ through IP alone, it'll only take half as long as you suggest.
You're confused I think, you divided the IP values by 2 but that makes no sense because sales to don't apply to IP, only RP. So unless they've changed something recently, it's more apt to say you're the one who "doesn't know what they're talking about".
His actual reasoning was pretty decent, sure you don't need every champion but as far as fun goes, I'd like most of them because I like variety, as far as competitive play goes, I'm not sure if this is even a real issue. Over a thousand games played, spent 35 dollars on the game and still found myself regularly saving up to get champions and being unable to keep up with the releases I wanted. The model just doesn't suit me I guess, I'd much prefer a standard unlock price.
huh? I swear I got a champ for half off IP at some point. they use RP to announce the sale, but if you buy it with IP it costs half as much as well, though I admit I can't be certain.
edit: so yeah, redface time. Still, it doesn't take a ridiculous time to unlock a decent roster, and I guess the sales are still kinda handy if you're willing to fork out the cash. Runes are still the bitch, and you can still play decently without them. It's the one part of the system I dislike, runes cost far too much IP for it to be viable to get a decent set for a good roster without spending quite a lot of money.
Honestly, there's like 60 champs, I get plenty of fun learning 10 with 60-70+ lane matchups and then just playing the others during free week to get a feel for them. The system is great for me, I don't know why people want to have all the champs, it seems like a waste of effort and/or money. No way you'd use them all.
On July 28 2011 13:33 Thereisnosaurus wrote: huh? I swear I got a champ for half off IP at some point. they use RP to announce the sale, but if you buy it with IP it costs half as much as well, though I admit I can't be certain.
No, you're mistaken. Unless you got by on a glitch somehow, I'm pretty certain you just messed up the math somehow. You were quite aggressive with your, "You don't know what you're talking about" but yeah... IP costs don't get reduced by sales.
HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
On July 28 2011 13:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote: HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
See, I disagree there... I don't see how strategy and decision making is really more emphasized in LoL, it sort of seems that way because the other aspects have slightly less depth.
On a fundamental level, ignoring the nature of physical sports and it's near unlimited competitive skill-cap, let's say you had regular basketball and just a game of penalty shots, you could say that aim is emphasized more in the latter but that's only because of the absence of anything else. I'm not trying to say that there's nothing else to LoL, but I don't think any of these elements are "Deeper" in LoL, they're merely more emphasized because the other elements are shallower.
On July 28 2011 13:38 AsianEcksDragon wrote: HoN and DotA emphasize mechanics and quick, on-your-feet-thinking more while LoL emphasizes strategy and decision making. Beginners find LoL easier because mechanics and such can be easily identified.
Bad generalization. There is as much strategy and decision making in HoN and DotA as in LoL, but the approach to thinking is different because of the difference in gameplay for all 3 games.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Locodoco telling us wat's up!
It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective.
Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Use of the acronym Laugh Out Loud should be banned in all conversations related to League of Legends. Perhaps (as a certain Mr. Martin has suggested) it would be best to use LQTM - Laughing Quietly to Myself; no confusion, and more honest.
I played a ton of DOTA way back in the day, though no experience with HoN, and it confused me to see debates on comparative game difficulty, as they felt pretty damn similar to me. Good to get a pro player's opinion on it.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Locodoco telling us wat's up!
It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective.
Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
There isn't much point to it. Pros of various skill levels (not all pros in are equal skill level and most cannot be considered top players) have both called LoL a good game, a fun game but bad for competitive play, and a bad game. I think it's just better to give it a rest, judge for yourself, and see in the long run how LoL develops.
A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote: A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
that is true but the argument is whether it takes MORE decision making to win in LoL than HoN/DotA, which is a fuzzy question and imo, as unanswerable and pointless as the argument about whether or not SC2 requires a more strategic mind than BW does
On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote: A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements.
So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
Locodoco (11:19): yo callmevigoss (11:19): sup Locodoco (11:19): is hon harder than lol? callmevigoss (11:19): i think lol is harder Locodoco (11:19): oh wow why? callmevigoss (11:20): lol needs more teamwork hon can 1 v 3 if ur fed lol lol even tho ur fed u still get kite and stuff so u acnt really 1 v 3 Locodoco (11:21): ppl keep telling me hon is harder with all the denying and shit lane phase is more "focused" callmevigoss (11:21): lol its like last hitting thats it Locodoco (11:21): why'd u switch over anyways? i thought u making a shit ton of cash in hon callmevigoss (11:22): nah lol tournament is like 5-10 times more #$ lol Locodoco (11:22): u guys havent made a penny from lol yet though zz callmevigoss (11:22): lol
callmevigross= eddieP he played for pandemic in dota and EG in hon says lol is harder than hon
i've talked to every single one of the EG members from hon and they say lol is diffrent not easier (if not harder) and doesnt have a lower skill cap just a different skill cap but im pretty sure u guys played hon at a higher level than any of them~~
Locodoco telling us wat's up!
It makes sense though. In DotA and HoN, levels and farm continue to scale for a lot longer, while in LoL the maximum level and farm are approached much quicker. This way, the focus for LoL is much different than in DotA/HoN
More people need to recognize this. A pro DotA/HoN player calling LoL more difficult. One person's opinion isn't proof, but a pro saying this compared to a bunch of people who didn't hit level 5 calling LoL shit and HoN/DotA the best puts things in perspective.
Anyone who's bashing LoL in this thread should read what Loco brought up and consider it.
eddie says lol is more difficult, chu (who was also a member of pandemic and one of hon's top players) has said that he thinks hon is the better game. you're ignoring the other side here... i don't really see the strength in this argument.
lol is quite a fun game tho, but i would never play it competitively (mostly because i don't have time anymore, but once dota 2 comes out i'm sure i'll make time). i find lol to be a lot more fun than hon if i'm just looking to play a quick casual game (whereas i can't do that with hon -- i have to win). one of my friends is a caster for the smaller NASL tourneys, so often i'll just jump on with his group vs a bunch of lvl 30's even though i'm only at 13 right now. sucks balls when you lane against a lvl 30 with a couple of pages of runes (destroying the skill difference, or widening it if they're better players than i am), but it is quite satisfying when i manage to win.
On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote: A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements.
So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
Equally though, your fallacy here is assuming that doing more = better. What if you had to juggle with your other hand, while skipping in order to move in "basketball+"? That doesn't make the sport any better.
Removing aspects of a game don't necessarily make it a "lesser game" and adding more to it isn't always for the best.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I am a DOTA fan but i don't deny how large LoL is. Doesn't change the fact its a extremely casual friendly game with no where near the depth of DOTA. Its a fun game and i enjoy playing it but if i look from a competitive viewpoint it really is a joke of a game.
Most people who claim LoL is n00b-friendly and doesn't work competitively are just whining about minor stuff, such as creep denying not being possible. While creep deny is a skill-based aspect, it doesn't make a game a "joke", and won't be a big impact in a pro match.
a bare few months ago HoN/LoL were pitched to me as being basically the same game with no real difference in popularity between the two, down to fanboyism/preference. But now I barely ever see anyone talk about HoN and LoL is everything.
I also agree that what riot managed to accomplish in this time span is incredible. They managed to create a game that is both very easy to get into and at the same time provides good ground for a competitive esport (hint hint - like all great sports?).
Playing DotA on and off for more than 7 years, to be honest it was easier for me to play my first LoL games than it was to play my first HoN game. For me it was probably for different reasons than for someone who is new to this type of game, but ill make a few points
* Recommended items - in HoN (especially when I tried it; also there were no guides like in today's HoN interface) i was trying to relate every hero to it's dota equivalent and then trying to find every dota item i'd like to make for him. This indeed is the wrong approach, but that was my 'instinct' for the first few games. In LoL I simply followed the recommended items one by one, until I got to understand what the rest of the items do and start making my own 'builds'
* Towers - being a newbie and not knowing what all the scary animations of the other heroes do, in LoL you have your tower as a safeguard - yes, tower dives are possible in LoL, but quite a bit harder to execute.
Blacksmith in hon (ogre magi) takes 9 tower hits to die on lvl 1 with no items pretty much every LoL champion will die in 3 hits in the same conditions
This allows beginners to die less due to not knowing the game, as long as they stick back close to the tower, which on it's own allows them more play time, less rage and easier learning curve
In any case, I dont want to turn this more in a HoN vs LoL thing, but I do think that riot did a fantastic job and I sure hope they continue the same way.
P.S. till few weeks ago when we still had the 1-2 hour login ques, I used to get kinda angry with riot for the 'shitty' server support, but reading the numbers OP posted now, I even think its kinda natural and am actually happy that they managed to find a solution as fast as they did
On July 27 2011 02:49 LittLeD wrote: Dota, HoN, Lol...they're all the same. Fun to play, but unfit as an esport. You basically has to have played the game to get any viewing pleasure whatsoever.
I don't think this is true. Why would be different for any game? When u first see a sc match you knew what's happening? No. Maybe CS is easy to grasp what's happening but not SC. My friend got into DotA watching me playing and explaining him what's he's seeing... That's like casting/streaming right?
On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote: A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements.
So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
Equally though, your fallacy here is assuming that doing more = better. What if you had to juggle with your other hand, while skipping in order to move in "basketball+"? That doesn't make the sport any better.
Removing aspects of a game don't necessarily make it a "lesser game" and adding more to it isn't always for the best.
I already adressed that prior. Once again, ignoring the nature of physical sport, If you had a basketball game where you had to whack your head and ass every time you dribbled the ball, it would be harder, but it's a pointless mechanical addition that doesn't make the game more active or competitive, removing those things won't make a huge diference. That's why I feel that BroodWar to SC2 is a little different in comparison to DotA to LoL, it was some alleviation and simplification of mechanics, things like MBS and auto-mine were just extra clicks that didn't pit you directly against your opponent, even then, they did increase the skill cap but it's still relatively high with both games.
Now, on the other hand, if you removed dribbling and lowered the net by 4 feet, that would make the game kind of stale, slow and require a lot less skill to play.
It's not a fallacy and I didn't say it was entirely necessary, I just flipped the previous posters logic to point why that idea doesn't work either. There are games where some simplification can be beneficial, I think Starcraft 2 is one of those examples to be honest. There are also cases where the simpler game, while fun isn't as fit for competitive play... I'd never want to see a tic-tac-toe competition over a Chess competition.
lol at EddieP saying LoL is harder than HoN/DotA, well...let's just say callmevigoss is an appropriate name.
1v3 if you're fed, rofl cause your team had absolutely nothing to do with that right Eddie? You just carried tPD, EG, n2p, hi2u, etc. all by your lonesome right?
LoL has the worst community or people that I've ever seen anywhere period. They are 95% seriously BM and nerd raging all the time. It's disgusting and a seirious turn-off when you try and play a game competetively and almost everyone in every game gives up or whines the entire game when little things go wrong. I think it would be seriously bad for e-sports if this really became one of the "big" ones. It has the worst community by a long shot and all the big streamers prefer to whine and play solo queue while streaming rather than actually putting in practice hours,learning the game, and developing team dynamics. Not only that but on a professional level the amount of champions they release is ludicrous. How can you ever expect a game to be truly balanced when a new hero is coming out every other week.
On July 28 2011 20:38 RickOrShay wrote: This made me pretty sad reading this thread, hopefully the Dota2 community will be more refined due to it actually costing real life money(:O).
Wait how do you think now? Both dota (I know you can download wc3 and play using irc channels/garena) and HoN costs money and they are the ones bashing LoL for being "easy".
On July 28 2011 22:17 Valenti wrote: LoL has the worst community or people that I've ever seen anywhere period. They are 95% seriously BM and nerd raging all the time. It's disgusting and a seirious turn-off when you try and play a game competetively and almost everyone in every game gives up or whines the entire game when little things go wrong. I think it would be seriously bad for e-sports if this really became one of the "big" ones. It has the worst community by a long shot and all the big streamers prefer to whine and play solo queue while streaming rather than actually putting in practice hours,learning the game, and developing team dynamics. Not only that but on a professional level the amount of champions they release is ludicrous. How can you ever expect a game to be truly balanced when a new hero is coming out every other week.
The community is FAR worse in Dota and HoN where you can carry a whole team and still be called a n00b. At least in Lol most people seem to respect people who play decently.
On July 29 2011 00:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: The other 5% are extremely skilled, well-mannered players, and that's a lot when your userbase is in the millions.
5% of 500,000 consecutive players during peek hours=25,000.
25,000= A slight bit less then the average consecutive playerbase of most games...period...Imo I can be happy with that.
I'm really happy for Riot and there success.
Now if only they would release Surprise Party Fiddle.
LoL is a great game and people need to back off with their hater comments. I swear most TL'ers are hypocrites, when it comes to SC2 growth, everyone is on the yay eSport growing bandwagon, and when its a game they dont like/biased towards they totally ignore it/bash it even though its promoting a casual eSport scene, SOMETHING SC2 cant possibly do. Good on riot to create a fun enjoyable game. Also to the people saying the community is terrible are either lying or experienced a streak of bad luck were they run across BM players (ya they exist in every game) because the LoL community is actually chill and layed back just like the game.
On July 28 2011 14:48 Two_DoWn wrote: A little logic experiment for anyone who STILL doesnt get the whole decision making is more important in lol than in hon or dota (from this point on to be generalized as hon) argument:
Fact 1: There are pros in both lol and hon. For the purposes of this discussion, this means people who will win the majority of their games, and generally crush lesser players.
Fact 2: Lol is less mechanically demanding than hon
Corollary to 2: This means that pros in lol have 1 less advantage when compared to pros in hon: Hon pros can rely on mechanics and hard carries to win, lol pros must ONLY rely on their game knowledge and decision making.
Corollary to 1&2: If pros in lol and hon both win similar percentages of games, but lol players can only rely on game knowledge instead of mechanics, then decision making is more important to success in lol than in hon.
Conclusion: Hon players can rely on 2 things to carry them to victory, superior mechanics and decision making. LoL players just have decision making. This means that decision making is more important to lol than it is in hon.
See, I addressed that earlier though, that's not particularly a positive for LoL. Let's use that same example the fundamentals of basketball vs a game based around shooting hoops. In the latter, aim is more important than in the former because you can't rely on movement, dribbling, dunks and things like that, but that doesn't mean the latter is ahead in terms of the depth of aim, it's just behind in the other elements.
So yeah, sure you can say LoL places more importance on decision making, but that isn't a positive or a neutral statement really, what you highlighted genuinely means a lower skill ceiling since in one department the players have two things they have to be good at to be competitive in and in the other, they have one thing. The mechanical elements aren't the only thing in regards to DotA/HoN and LoL either, things such as denying aren't exactly mechanical, but add a lot more focus and activity to the laning phase.
Equally though, your fallacy here is assuming that doing more = better. What if you had to juggle with your other hand, while skipping in order to move in "basketball+"? That doesn't make the sport any better.
Removing aspects of a game don't necessarily make it a "lesser game" and adding more to it isn't always for the best.
I already adressed that prior. Once again, ignoring the nature of physical sport, If you had a basketball game where you had to whack your head and ass every time you dribbled the ball, it would be harder, but it's a pointless mechanical addition that doesn't make the game more active or competitive, removing those things won't make a huge diference. That's why I feel that BroodWar to SC2 is a little different in comparison to DotA to LoL, it was some alleviation and simplification of mechanics, things like MBS and auto-mine were just extra clicks that didn't pit you directly against your opponent, even then, they did increase the skill cap but it's still relatively high with both games.
Now, on the other hand, if you removed dribbling and lowered the net by 4 feet, that would make the game kind of stale, slow and require a lot less skill to play.
It's not a fallacy and I didn't say it was entirely necessary, I just flipped the previous posters logic to point why that idea doesn't work either. There are games where some simplification can be beneficial, I think Starcraft 2 is one of those examples to be honest. There are also cases where the simpler game, while fun isn't as fit for competitive play... I'd never want to see a tic-tac-toe competition over a Chess competition.
ok, so the tl;dr of this whole conversation is that there's not actually a direct correlation between mechanical complexity and depth of a game. it's possible to add meaningless mechanics that add nothing to a game and it's possible to remove mechanics that were adding depth to the game. we get it, moving on.
the mechanical skills in LoL are certainly less than DotA (can't speak on HoN because I haven't played HoN), but I don't really care tbh . sure, there's no one in LoL who shows off your gosu bursts of 400 APM to cycle through slick Invoker combos, but I still find top level play incredibly interesting in terms of players utilizing their skills at maximum efficiency and making great snap-judgement calls. At the end of the day, the only difference is that they didn't have to cycle through 60 keypresses in 2 seconds to do it. Franky I don't care if you cycle through 60 keypresses or 10 keypresses if the resulting gameplay is based on similarly impressive timing and decision making. That contrived mechanical barrier isn't necessary for a game to be a successful e-sport.
whether the actual game mechanics (not physical mechanics) are too dumbed down is frankly a matter of opinion so long as it doesn't create blatantly imbalanced or boring gameplay. SC2 and LoL both strike me as sufficiently balanced and interesting to succeed as e-sports. An example of a failed sequel in this respect would be Smash Brothers Brawl IMO. High level Brawl play is plagued by overly defensive and boring play due to a large number of game mechanics that ultimately limited offensive options and combo potential, which makes the game much less fun to watch when compared to high level Melee play. I don't get that same sense when I go from watching BW -> SC2, or from DotA -> LoL. I sense that the game is different, but I still see many of the same core concepts and I still see plenty of rewarding pro-active play in both.
LQTM @ people "stating" fallacies. If you're not sure you're correctly informed please refrain from posting "absolute truths because I think so". It's not helpful nor does it make you look smart. More related : does anybody have been keeping contact with some DotA "legends" (k3v, hex0r, vigoss and such). Anybody knows what are they playing atm and what they think of the different games ? I think loda tried LoL, not 100% sure, but he didn't like it because he couldnt carry people as in DotA/HoN :p. Might be mistaken though. "Pros" opinions are always welcome. We'll be able to see what happens to LoL viewership in next MLG and Gamescom. Hopefully numbers will confirm Dreamhacks' so we can settle the "fake numbers" argument.
well, as long as it's in quotes, I'm pretty sure I qualify as a LoL "Pro" My elo has been hovering around 2100 +/- 50 or so for the past couple months (places me between ~100-200 on the ladder) and I was the captain of the TL community LoL team that took 6th in the ESL Premier League. My DotA experience was pretty brief, as I got into it just as my friends were switching over to LoL, but I got at least good enough to know what all the characters and items did and had a general idea of how to not suck dick at the game.
CallMeVigoss on LoL is Vigoss I believe and he's pretty good but doesn't play a lot. Not sure what his opinion of the game is. Chu8 migrated from HoN to LoL and stated that he liked HoN better but still found LoL fun and thought it was a good game, also quite good at LoL, hit #1 on the ladder at one point iirc, but couldn't hold it for more than a day or two. Generally speaking, DotA pros dislike the changes to losing gold on death and denying creeps most notably, but as far as I can tell this is more of a preference/stuck-in-their-ways issue rather than an objectively bad aspect of LoL.
I personally just think those changes are just that... changes. They change the way the game is played and it's not necessarily for better or for worse. I argue that they're for better, but it's based on my preferences of how I'd like the game to be played and see perfectly valid points from the other side of the argument. What's not really debatable is whether they make the game more accessible, as the entire concept of denying feels contrived and counter-intuitive and dying and losing thousands of gold for it makes players more upset. So regardless of whether you think it's good or bad for high level play (which again, feels subjective to me), it's definitely better for getting more people playing.
General ease of use and ease of following fights feels better in LoL too. The cartoony graphics are actually very good for highlighting what's going on IMO (which again, is better for it's spectators) and there's really no contest between the DotA and HoN shops vs. the LoL Shop, not to mention the difference in ease of use of LoL skills vs. DotA skills.
I was more looking for the "DotA" pros side of the argument tbh ^^ In my opinion even "dreamhack" quality players atm are not all good enough to be qualified "pros" and to enter the same category as Vigoss and others... And remember I'm the "super-pro-LoL" guy ! All of you guys who apparently "beat the crap out of the game" are welcome to team up, play tournaments and win everything.
On July 29 2011 02:29 Microchaton wrote: I was more looking for the "DotA" pros side of the argument tbh ^^ In my opinion even "dreamhack" quality players atm are not all good enough to be qualified "pros" and to enter the same category as Vigoss and others... And remember I'm the "super-pro-LoL" guy ! All of you guys who apparently "beat the crap out of the game" are welcome to team up, play tournaments and win everything.
Comparing Dota pros to LoL pros is like comparing BW pros and SC2 pros. Newer game, worse pros.
Really happy for Riot. I enjoy playing LoL every once in a while, free champion rotation is awesome for me, as I won't invest money in it, and they get commercial income from me watching games and streams.
So yeah, awesome for Riot, awesome for us as fans of ESPORTS.
On July 29 2011 02:29 Microchaton wrote: I was more looking for the "DotA" pros side of the argument tbh ^^ In my opinion even "dreamhack" quality players atm are not all good enough to be qualified "pros" and to enter the same category as Vigoss and others... And remember I'm the "super-pro-LoL" guy ! All of you guys who apparently "beat the crap out of the game" are welcome to team up, play tournaments and win everything.
huh? what? your post makes basically no sense from front to back.
Ok, fine, game that's just starting to get competitive vs. game that's been competitive for many years. Sure, we simply don't have a long enough history of LoL to get the same level of epic-pro-status that DotA has. But there are still top level players and I'm not exactly sure why you don't care about what we have to say.
Also, I don't know what "And remember I'm the "super-pro-LoL" guy !" even means
Also I have no idea who that last sentence is directed at.
free pvp game getting success can never be wrong . As long as it stays ... you can get everything for free as well. brrr sc2 for free, but you have to pay monthly for units like infestors or ghosts or colossi lol. I don't mind free games as long as they allow people with to muc free time get as good as people with to much money. Thats perfect for a f2p as everyone will love it.
On July 29 2011 02:46 FeyFey wrote: free pvp game getting success can never be wrong . As long as it stays ... you can get everything for free as well. brrr sc2 for free, but you have to pay monthly for units like infestors or ghosts or colossi lol. I don't mind free games as long as they allow people with to muc free time get as good as people with to much money. Thats perfect for a f2p as everyone will love it.
Riot has stated that they will never sell raw power for RP (the currency you pay for) but not IP (the currency you get over time for playing the game). Spending some money to give yourself runepage flexibility and champion flexibility sure is nice, but you could theoretically just spam games to get it all. The only thing that is RP only ATM are skins, which have no power level difference.
On July 29 2011 02:29 Microchaton wrote: I was more looking for the "DotA" pros side of the argument tbh ^^ In my opinion even "dreamhack" quality players atm are not all good enough to be qualified "pros" and to enter the same category as Vigoss and others... And remember I'm the "super-pro-LoL" guy ! All of you guys who apparently "beat the crap out of the game" are welcome to team up, play tournaments and win everything.
vigoss is basically from the era of dota that is like the boxer era of BW, looking back on his golden days even LoL pros (with small amount of dota knowledge) would be able to beat them in those days, the understanding of DotA has advanced quite far since then making their highlight videos look laughably basic, and his teams playstyle fell out of favor a long time ago-- they couldnt adapt to new versions and playstyles. but individual skill wise he is still a very good player.
out of the original virtus pro NS is notable for being one of the the top supports in europe, SMILE still plays pro sometimes.
The whole "LoL isn't fit as an esport because you have to play it for it to make sense" argument doesn't really make sense to me. How many of you actually watch games (as an esport, not as an "oh look at this hilarious wombo combo video") that you don't play?
Especially with a free game this doesn't make sense. Releasing this game and getting huge numbers at WCG puts the game in the spotlight as far as up and coming esports/games go. If you watch and you're interested, all you have to do is go download the game. You can do the "play the game" part so that it "makes sense as an esport" all for free!~!~!
Also, on a different note, a way to make it more accessible for people who don't play enough to be completely familiar with all 70 whatever champs would be to give a basic overview of the champions being played while the players are loading. Each character only has 4 skills and you don't have to go into an kind of detail with them. The rest of the match will be like a showcase of how to most effectively use the characters and their skills anyway.
On July 29 2011 05:27 sRapers_ValkS wrote: The whole "LoL isn't fit as an esport because you have to play it for it to make sense" argument doesn't really make sense to me. How many of you actually watch games (as an esport, not as an "oh look at this hilarious wombo combo video") that you don't play?
Especially with a free game this doesn't make sense. Releasing this game and getting huge numbers at WCG puts the game in the spotlight as far as up and coming esports/games go. If you watch and you're interested, all you have to do is go download the game. You can do the "play the game" part so that it "makes sense as an esport" all for free!~!~!
Also, on a different note, a way to make it more accessible for people who don't play enough to be completely familiar with all 70 whatever champs would be to give a basic overview of the champions being played while the players are loading. Each character only has 4 skills and you don't have to go into an kind of detail with them. The rest of the match will be like a showcase of how to most effectively use the characters and their skills anyway.
And people are forgetting that top tier players and teams got access to the tournament realm where everything is unlocked.
On July 29 2011 05:27 sRapers_ValkS wrote: The whole "LoL isn't fit as an esport because you have to play it for it to make sense" argument doesn't really make sense to me.
It's plain wrong too. I had no experience with DotA, HoN or LoL whatsoever and had fun watching Psyonic_Reaver play LoL several months ago, which eventually got me into playing it.
On July 29 2011 05:27 sRapers_ValkS wrote: The whole "LoL isn't fit as an esport because you have to play it for it to make sense" argument doesn't really make sense to me. How many of you actually watch games (as an esport, not as an "oh look at this hilarious wombo combo video") that you don't play?
For some people it might make sense. Not LoL specifically, but I do believe in the argument that some games are easier to understand and watch without ever playing it than others.
I started playing SC2 because I enjoyed watching SC2. Sometime during the beta, I was reading a forum and someone happened to mention that SC2 was finally being released, and that Blizzard had been giving out beta keys. With nominal interest I decided to type "Starcraft 2" into youtube just to see what the game was like. The first thing that I clicked on happened to a be match between KawaiiRice and qxc. I watched the match, knowing almost nothing about SC2 and was entertained and I wanted more. I subscribed to popular youtube casters just to watch the game as much as I could. I watched dozens of games before I ever got my own beta key.
Conversely, when I tried to watch HoN it didn't have the same appeal. I watched a couple matches, both were long nearly one hour games, and I didn't find it very interesting. I couldn't follow what was going on, and I didn't have any interest in watching any more games. I did check in on the LoL stream from time to time at Dreamhack but I felt pretty much the same way about LoL as I did about HoN, I couldn't get into it. I felt like I had to play it to know what I was watching.
I'm not suggesting that my experiences are universal when it comes to SC2 or HoN/LoL. Maybe there are people who got hooked onto watching LoL without playing it the same as I did SC2. I'm not trying to say one or the other is better in this regard for anyone but me personally. However, I do believe that it is possible for someone to enjoy watching a game, whatever it may be, without ever having played it.
Despite my own preference for SC2 I do hope people who enjoy watching LoL, or any other game from this genre, get to have plenty of high level tournaments to enjoy.
EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more I think the reason why SC2 was an easy game for me to enjoy watching before playing it was because I have played many RTS games, even though I didn't play SC2 specifically. BW, C&C, Red Alert, Total Annihilation, Dark Reign, AoE, RoN, etc. might all be very different in the details of how they operate, but if you've played one, even if it's only campaign missions, it's not that difficult to understand what's going on in another RTS, especially one as traditional as SC2.
personally I've only ever been able to appreciate fighting games without playing them and a lot of that has to do with fighting game commentators going batshit insane when something cool is happening which just sucks you into the hype, lol.
If you guys can think of anything we can do better in the realm of eSports, do let me know! I work for Riot and I do eSports stuff. I know there's a LOT we can do, and there's a LOT on our todo list, but if you have a specific idea/concern that you think needs Riot attention, do shoot me a PM.
And thanks for the kind words. Riot is blowing up, and as someone noticed, these numbers do NOT include Asia, where we opened our open beta in China just one week ago. We're doing really well and we're investing very heavily in further development. That big announcement that we've got coming very soon? It's going to make very people very happy. This is one of those "small bomb implanted in brain" situations where we all at Riot REALLY REALLY want to talk about this thing but can't until it's officially announced. It's killing me! But the wait will be over very soon.
You can't compare lol with dota... lol is a rip-off from dota + the graphics in dota is so bad compared to lol and hon and it was a custom game within Warcraft III. If they would have made Dota 2 instead of lol and hon it would have been much more succesful than both games combined
On July 28 2011 10:05 MidKnight wrote: Things like adding 30 levels, which any at least slightly competitive player will reach in few weeks, shows that they wanted to 'hook' casuals up by introducing the favorite part of casual gamers - grinding. This sort of gimmick shouldn't have a place in any competitive game. This is exactly why MMOs are so popular, people enjoy their 'skill' to be measured by artificial means like levels/items/new skills instead of actually becoming better at the game at hand.
(Replied part is in bolded part. I understand you say not in a competitive game so this isn't about LoL but just MMOs).
In defense of casuals everywhere - Time = Skill (for the most part). Skill is a bit subjective but generally if you put time into practicing you get better (therefore more skill).
If someone grinds competitively at SC2, they get better (of course quality grinding that is. HuK in oGs team house for example).
People grind at MMO with probably roughly the same hours (or maybe less for "real casual players") as say maybe the average competitive SC2 player (I'm not sure but I know lots of people who spend 5+ hours a day on MMO).
However what's the point of grinding in SC2 if it's not fun to you or to that person? If you're going pro, sure but otherwise some don't have fun playing SC2 or "competitive games" so there's no point for them to spend time on it.
MMOs are more about social and relaxing fun (yes doing the same thing over and over can be relaxing as long as you're chatting with friends or having a great time). If you have had a rough day, you want to relax with a casual not competitive game. Sure some people relax by playing competitively but others prefer less competitive games to relax.
So I don't think all the negativity towards casuals are necessary. While it's true that games nowadays are a lot more "easier", I don't think it matters too much unless the game is built on competitive play (WoW and most MMOs aren't).
As for seemingly competitive games that appear to be too casual (Is LoL advertised as competitive)? Well that's another story but still casuals should get some slack.
Why does everything in life has to be some contest or competition .
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Except... right now is the middle of the day in China, and a godforsaken time in western Russia, and.. 204063 on garena alone.
That said, LoLs growth in the West is great for Esports.
Also most strangely, AOE 1 appears to have an active community of over 10,000 people logged in right now?? I never knew people even still played that. Apparently 9,000 of the 10,000 are in Vietnam, or are at least playing on the Vietnam server. So strange.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Except... right now is the middle of the day in china and.. 204063 on garena alone.
That said, LoLs growth in the West is great for Esports.
most chinese dont play on garena. they have their own client most of those numbers come from the philippines and malaysia/sg and other countries in south east asia. i dont remember if there are sanguo players on garena but a lot of people play that too but it isnt dota
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Except... right now is the middle of the day in china and.. 204063 on garena alone.
That said, LoLs growth in the West is great for Esports.
most chinese dont play on garena. they have their own client most of those numbers come from the philippines and malaysia/sg and other countries in south east asia. i dont remember if there are sanguo players on garena but a lot of people play that too but it isnt dota
Hm? That may be true now, checking out the rooms it appears to be the case, but when I was active in playing dota ~1 year ago a ton of Chinese people were on it, and any international online game involving Chinese was played on it, but if anything it supports my point that DOTA has tremendous popularity outside of the west.
I don't see any sanguo rooms, outside of some empty China ones, so if people are playing it, they are playing it in DOTA rooms.
On July 27 2011 01:26 howerpower wrote: DOTA players are still gonna deny that LoL is legit and that it has more players than DOTA. Hater's gonna hate I suppose.
What's incredible is how much it has grown lately, it didn't seem this big just like 4 months ago.
I don't think anyone with any sense would try to argue with public information, even with the massive success DotA had in China.
Most people don't really argue with League of Legend's popularity...
Except... right now is the middle of the day in china and.. 204063 on garena alone.
That said, LoLs growth in the West is great for Esports.
most chinese dont play on garena. they have their own client most of those numbers come from the philippines and malaysia/sg and other countries in south east asia. i dont remember if there are sanguo players on garena but a lot of people play that too but it isnt dota
Hm? That may be true now, checking out the rooms it appears to be the case, but when I was active in playing dota ~1 year ago a ton of Chinese people were on it, and any international online game involving Chinese was played on it, but if anything it supports my point that DOTA has tremendous popularity outside of the west.
I don't see any sanguo rooms, outside of some empty China ones, so if people are playing it, they are playing it in DOTA rooms.
I agree LoL has grown in numbers. It's really hard to measure numbers regarding DotA because there are LAN/Computer Shops around. People like when it is lag free and hassle free unlike playing online. You need to check the ping everytime. (I've also heard about a Php100,000 bet on a single DotA (show)match. Think about that )
It's still not impossible to believe Dota has more players overall, adding all diferent plataform, which is what the original quote refered to. People really underrate the amount of players on Asia.
That said, this really has nothing to do with LoL sucess as a game, it's just because Warcraft 3 easiness to pirate and how far it already was spread in LANs, etc, meant it Dota was an obvious choice for that region.
On July 28 2011 05:30 rabidch wrote: Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Yeah I don't know anything about playing carry in HoN.
On a more related note, how do you think HoN going F2P will effect either game ? Is S2 doing some kind of "desperate" move to get more players in ? What do you think about the pace of hero releasing in HoN too. What about the separation between 'F2P' and "Verified only / legacy" accounts ? And the purchasable "early access" to heroes in PUBLIC GAMES ? Looks like pay2win to me.
S2 is desperate, no doubt about that. It's silly that they've gone from $30 to $10 and now free. They're trying to make those who had paid at least feel like they haven't wasted money but it's gonna be harder for newer players and less enjoyable for older players.
On July 28 2011 05:30 rabidch wrote: Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Yeah I don't know anything about playing carry in HoN.
On a more related note, how do you think HoN going F2P will effect either game ? Is S2 doing some kind of "desperate" move to get more players in ? What do you think about the pace of hero releasing in HoN too. What about the separation between 'F2P' and "Verified only / legacy" accounts ? And the purchasable "early access" to heroes in PUBLIC GAMES ? Looks like pay2win to me.
How on earth is what you mentioned any more "Pay to win" than in League of Legends? If you don't have IP and I don't have IP, you can just pay to get access to a champion earlier than me, wouldn't "early access" to heroes be pretty much the same thing? IP Boosts are an easy way of circumventing the "paying for power" idea, "Oh, you're still playing, it's not just paying!", also if you actually think about it, if I have 15000IP and you have 15000IP, and you buy your champions with RP, who is going to have better Runes? The time-frame is roughly similar, I don't see how you can suggest that one would be "pay2win" unless you want to consider the other to be "pay2win", either they both would be/are or neither are.
Such a crock of rubbish... Honestly.
From all this nonsense about LoL having higher level of teamwork to better decision making, to more end-game shit going on, none of this makes any sense. It's absolutely equivalent in HoN, and now this about how if HoN did go F2P and use early access to heroes, it would be paying to win. If you consider something that simple to be paying to win, then LoL is pay2win as well.
No, the point was that only "verified only" (aka paid accounts) who paid an extra (per champion) could have access to that. Sure, you can pay for IP boosts, but in the end everybody is still technically able (and tons of people do so) and equally entitled to getting a new champion as soon as he is released. The only thing "exclusive" on LoL are some special skins. Anyway, I'm calling tons of "verified" accounts rolling on new "F2P" players games using Monkey King :p
On July 28 2011 05:30 rabidch wrote: Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Yeah I don't know anything about playing carry in HoN.
On a more related note, how do you think HoN going F2P will effect either game ? Is S2 doing some kind of "desperate" move to get more players in ? What do you think about the pace of hero releasing in HoN too. What about the separation between 'F2P' and "Verified only / legacy" accounts ? And the purchasable "early access" to heroes in PUBLIC GAMES ? Looks like pay2win to me.
How on earth is what you mentioned any more "Pay to win" than in League of Legends? If you don't have IP and I don't have IP, you can just pay to get access to a champion earlier than me, wouldn't "early access" to heroes be pretty much the same thing? IP Boosts are an easy way of circumventing the "paying for power" idea, "Oh, you're still playing, it's not just paying!", also if you actually think about it, if I have 15000IP and you have 15000IP, and you buy your champions with RP, who is going to have better Runes? The time-frame is roughly similar, I don't see how you can suggest that one would be "pay2win" unless you want to consider the other to be "pay2win", either they both would be/are or neither are.
Such a crock of rubbish... Honestly.
From all this nonsense about LoL having higher level of teamwork to better decision making, to more end-game shit going on, none of this makes any sense. It's absolutely equivalent in HoN, and now this about how if HoN did go F2P and use early access to heroes, it would be paying to win. If you consider something that simple to be paying to win, then LoL is pay2win as well.
Because if everything is accessible through playing the game, then at competitive levels, any differences in hero/rune accessibility vanishes because everyone is playing enough to earn everything as it's released. Most top-level streamers own everything they want and are still floating something like 20k-30k IP. This is obviously not true at middle levels, but players at those levels are also unlikely to be relevant to big competitive events.
On July 28 2011 05:30 rabidch wrote: Better for you not to say anything about HoN/DotA, I read through it and you concentrate too much on hard carry aspects ("carry"is an inaccurate name anyway) which is a factor and not enough on map and lane control but you're looking at HoN/DotA from an outsiders perspective, because these games have a lot of subtlety too. As for who criticize LoL, at least know the game first... I've hardly read any good arguments for either game in this thread.
Yeah I don't know anything about playing carry in HoN.
On a more related note, how do you think HoN going F2P will effect either game ? Is S2 doing some kind of "desperate" move to get more players in ? What do you think about the pace of hero releasing in HoN too. What about the separation between 'F2P' and "Verified only / legacy" accounts ? And the purchasable "early access" to heroes in PUBLIC GAMES ? Looks like pay2win to me.
How on earth is what you mentioned any more "Pay to win" than in League of Legends? If you don't have IP and I don't have IP, you can just pay to get access to a champion earlier than me, wouldn't "early access" to heroes be pretty much the same thing? IP Boosts are an easy way of circumventing the "paying for power" idea, "Oh, you're still playing, it's not just paying!", also if you actually think about it, if I have 15000IP and you have 15000IP, and you buy your champions with RP, who is going to have better Runes? The time-frame is roughly similar, I don't see how you can suggest that one would be "pay2win" unless you want to consider the other to be "pay2win", either they both would be/are or neither are.
Such a crock of rubbish... Honestly.
From all this nonsense about LoL having higher level of teamwork to better decision making, to more end-game shit going on, none of this makes any sense. It's absolutely equivalent in HoN, and now this about how if HoN did go F2P and use early access to heroes, it would be paying to win. If you consider something that simple to be paying to win, then LoL is pay2win as well.
Because if everything is accessible through playing the game, then at competitive levels, any differences in hero/rune accessibility vanishes because everyone is playing enough to earn everything as it's released. Most top-level streamers own everything they want and are still floating something like 20k-30k IP. This is obviously not true at middle levels, but players at those levels are also unlikely to be relevant to big competitive events.
Yeah, but how does that make the idea of early access heroes not available in tournaments, "Pay2Win"?
The post you quoted doesn't say anything about the impact of the system at competitive levels, I think you misread it. It merely states that the idea of giving players earlier access to heroes because they've been around for a while and actually purchased the game, is no more "Pay2Win" than the system that's currently existent in League of Legends since you can pay outright as opposed to saving up IP.
Neither system really makes a difference at the top level, particularly with the inclusion of client for tournament play.
I just don't like the idea of being unable to purchase a roster outright without having to get nickel and dimed every couple of weeks as a personal preference, this has nothing to do with competitive play and I've gone into detail on this particular point in earlier posts.
On July 30 2011 02:48 Microchaton wrote: No, the point was that only "verified only" (aka paid accounts) who paid an extra (per champion) could have access to that. Sure, you can pay for IP boosts, but in the end everybody is still technically able (and tons of people do so) and equally entitled to getting a new champion as soon as he is released. The only thing "exclusive" on LoL are some special skins. Anyway, I'm calling tons of "verified" accounts rolling on new "F2P" players games using Monkey King :p
Do some research before you make posts.
F2P accounts become verified at level 5. Pay2Win is a fucking joke. Anything competitive has new heroes banned for a month before they can actually be picked.
EPT
, actually I'm mad at Dota because it made me miss years of BW) a Dota guy, just played a couple of LoL matches, but people were kinda...hm...very bad, and when I found out about that WoW-like tree of talents and "buying champions" to use it lost all the interest as a competitive game to me. If these about not having a massive support role with no tri-lanes and no mana management are true...I am disappoint.
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