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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 79

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jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 19:04:22
September 29 2011 18:45 GMT
#1561
On September 30 2011 02:19 mastergriggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2011 17:05 Raysalis wrote:
On September 29 2011 07:31 mastergriggy wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:13 qrs wrote:
On September 28 2011 15:38 mastergriggy wrote:
I still believe Jd's line with a3 is best. I like keeping the pawn and although the situation is sticky at first, we still are a pawn up. I don't agree with the idea of sacrificing a pawn just for space. I provided analysis for it two or three of my posts back so I refer to those for anyone who would be interested in giving it a shot.
Your analysis here (which you could have linked to, at least) consists of a short forced line, a general plan, and the words + Show Spoiler +
"I think we can hold our pawn and it isn't as bad for our Bishop as it looks"
In my post on this page (with the green header), I gave much more detailed analysis showing why the line is not very good. Among other things, I specifically addressed your plan. If you're going to say something like "I believe this line is best", the least you could do is address the analysis which seems to show that it's pretty bad.

For my part, I also like keeping the pawn, which is why I'll be casting my vote for+ Show Spoiler +
13. Ke2


I think I didn't say exactly what I was trying to say in my last post, so I'm gonna try again. I don't see why we need to choose a line that returns the pawn as opposed to a line that keeps one. Whether it be a3 or Ke2, as long as we aren't simply looking to get rid of it.

Analysis of why I beleive a3 is still a strong move:
+ Show Spoiler +
As for your line (13. a3 B/Nxd2 14. Nxd2 Nxd2 15. Kxd2 Rb3), you suggest white plays 16. Re1 but I think white has a much stronger move with 16. b4.

A line that black might try to take advantage of the weak white squares is 16...Bb5 17.Ke1!? with the intent of moving the bishop out. 17...0-0 (Rc6 looks okay, but after Be3, Ke2 no place the rook can get in) 18. Be3 Rfb8 (trying to breakthrough with Bc4 and a5) 19. Ke2[/b[ and white looks fine and has an extra pawn as well.

Another line for black 16...0-0 17. Ke1 Rg3 (shifting the focus to the king's side) 18. Be3 (maybe f4 is stronger here for white?) ...Bf3 19. Rg1 and Ke2 and moving the rooks to the c file looks very strong for white.

16...Bf5 17. Ke2 Rc6 18. Bd2 0-0 19. Rac1 looks strong for white.

I don't see any prevalent moves for black, but I will keep looking.

As one fellow chess player to another, please at least give the lines following 16. b4 a look and if you find a strong reason why white can't play that, let me know and I will retract my interests in a3 (and change my signature to "qrs is a beast at chess" for a week )


Edit: Fixed horrible grammar and added more analysis of different lines for black.



+ Show Spoiler +


I would have love it if we can play b4 but that will be quite impossible with black rook park on b3



You posted no analysis while I posted 3 different lines that start off with black playing Rb3. Did you not read my analysis? If you didn't, then please do and post analysis of why we can't play b4. Read the spoiler part.



griggy, he means it is literally impossible to play b4 if there is a rook on b3. I think you are assuming the rook is on b6, since you later suggest Rc6 is possible.

On September 29 2011 07:31 mastergriggy wrote:
... and if you find a strong reason why white can't play that, let me know and I will retract my interests in a3 (and change my signature to "qrs is a beast at chess" for a week )


Time to change the signature!
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 19:06:47
September 29 2011 19:03 GMT
#1562
Wow I am completely retarded guys. I kept thinking everyone was saying Rb6...yeah my bad. And I guess I'll change it Sorry I feel terrible.

K and I'm changing it.

Edit: See changed it down there V. Okay so now that I've done looking at the wrong move, I'm gonna check out what white can do after Rb3.

Once again my sincerest apologies about that.
Write your own song!
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
September 29 2011 19:06 GMT
#1563
On September 30 2011 04:03 mastergriggy wrote:
Wow I am completely retarded guys. I kept thinking everyone was saying Rb6...yeah my bad. And I guess I'll change it Sorry I feel terrible.

K and I'm changing it.


lol nice signature griggy. And happy birthday!
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 29 2011 21:45 GMT
#1564
Posted my move. You have six hours extra to your three days.

Round 13 starts here and now.

Will update the graphs, roster and send reminders from home.

Cheers.
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 29 2011 21:50 GMT
#1565
oh boy...lol I was kinda wondering if you would play that, but I wasn't sure. Time to go back to the board and look at the new position.

Write your own song!
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 29 2011 21:52 GMT
#1566
I've been expecting his bishop...
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 29 2011 21:56 GMT
#1567
13. Rb1
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 23:17:26
September 29 2011 23:10 GMT
#1568

[image loading]

13. a3

+ Show Spoiler +
In this variation, which I expected, the light-squared bishop won't be able to defend b3, or to check our king on c2 immediately, so the threat of Rb3 is not possible anymore. For this reason, we should not be afraid at all to play a3 here.

By playing a3, we are immediately putting the question to the bishop: trade or retreat. This will alleviate the uncomfortable pin on our knight. We shouldn't fear further simplification here; in fact, we should encourage it, because we are a pawn up. The more we trade down, the greater our pawn advantage becomes, and the easier it is to defend our pawn advantage. I highly doubt that black will be willing to trade his good bishop for a knight here, so he will likely retreat.

Playing a3 also prepares us for the natural move, b4, which opens another line for our bishop and clamps down further on the dark squares, particularly the critical square c5, preventing black from undermining our center, and leaving him with a backwards pawn and giving us a potential knight outpost on c5.

I don't see any drawbacks to this move. Black can't play Rb3 at all now, because we will simply play Qc2 and force the retreat.

[image loading]
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 29 2011 23:27 GMT
#1569
I think 12... Bxd7 would lose with proper play. At least it's very anti-positional for black. If I really wanted that I could have gone for 8... O-O and wait for you to develop the same Qa4, etc replying with Bd7 and answer the later Bxc6 with Bxc6 getting into a not so nice position. If I didn't do that back then why would I do it now.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 29 2011 23:28 GMT
#1570
Besides.

This move will at least make you think a tad bit more.
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
September 29 2011 23:40 GMT
#1571
Well not necessarily losing, but certainly isn't winning. For Bxd7.
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
September 30 2011 00:16 GMT
#1572
Hi. I know I'm late to the party but I've been really interested in chess. Could I perhaps participate in the game also? ^^ I'm not very good but I'll try to provide some helpful input !
133 221 333 123 111
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
September 30 2011 01:01 GMT
#1573
a3

+ Show Spoiler +
13. a3 Bxd2+ 14.Nxd2 Nxd2 15.Kxd2 Ba6 16.b4
If 15...a5 16.Kc2 followed by Be3 and Rac1
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4750 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 01:04:13
September 30 2011 01:03 GMT
#1574
13. a3

+ Show Spoiler +
13...Lb4xd2, 14.Sf3xd2 Se4xd2 15.Ke1xd2 La6 16. b4 is the line I am looking at. That doesn't look to shabby, but also pretty hard to turn our extra pawn into a winning position.

If we play 13. Rb1 La6 and 14.a3, we have to deal with 14...Lb4xd2, 15.Sf3xd2 Se4xd2 16.Ke1xd2 Rb3, which does not look comfortable at all (if we play 16.Lc1xd2 he answers with Ld3 and we simply lose our b-pawn).
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4750 Posts
September 30 2011 01:06 GMT
#1575
On September 30 2011 09:16 GenesisX wrote:
Hi. I know I'm late to the party but I've been really interested in chess. Could I perhaps participate in the game also? ^^ I'm not very good but I'll try to provide some helpful input !


Better late than never. As far as I know, no one is excluded and you can join in anytime.
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
keyStorm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-01 00:46:35
September 30 2011 02:01 GMT
#1576
13. a3


Changed it from O-O.


Because even if we dont castle the position of the king remains good, so let's rock that bishop!
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 30 2011 02:06 GMT
#1577
13. a3

+ Show Spoiler +
So I realize that basically before Rb3 completely cramps white's position, and white couldn't simply chase the rook away because of Ba3. Now this isn't the case.
Write your own song!
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 02:37:31
September 30 2011 02:36 GMT
#1578
13. a3

+ Show Spoiler +
Alot of my reason were already pointed out by Jdseemoreglass. Black will most likely not trade in this position. Being down a pawn and going for an even trade that offer little position gain cept the possibility of Rb3, which doesnt really do much, he will most likely not go for it.

This move will also lead to the possibility of finally being able to castle or developing the bishop and allowing that other rook as well to engage. There isnt really any other logical choices that will dictate the pace of this game.

The only draw back is that even if the bishop retreats, it will be able to hold the b6 position and hold a strong attack on the center d4 pawn and f2 pawn if it does not trade. Which also support my hypothesis that black will not agreed to the trade.

If he does trade, that mean he will most likely understand that his position is bad and will want to create a more open game to allow more possibility of mistake.


Why we shouldnt do 13. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
We obviously give up a free pawn in the trade and will lose our pawn advantage and enter the late game. Rather uncomfortable position if we throw our key advantage.


Also, I am new to this tread. But it looks rather interesting and I would also like to participate because I used to go to tournament when I was still in high school :D
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
dtvu
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia687 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 05:26:34
September 30 2011 05:24 GMT
#1579
My problem with 13) a3:
+ Show Spoiler +
13)... Be7 - this move no one has looked at yet. The reason is that it's a positional play, which is Ng5's style. The line follows: 14) b4 Bc6 15) Nxe4 d5xe4 16) Nd2 Bd3 17) Nb3 . I think Black would get a very strong position and be able to nullify our pawn advantage.


My vote therefore is 13) 0-0
+ Show Spoiler +
Our pawn advantage is nullified by Ng5's superior position, I rather give back our tiny lead for better movements around the board. Afterall after 13) ...Nxd2 14) Nxd2 Bxd2 15) Bxd2 16) Ba5 we get a much better line of attack and open up the game quite a lot and wrestle back a superior positioning.


Edit note: added a link by mistake so deleted it.
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-30 14:00:59
September 30 2011 13:56 GMT
#1580
On September 30 2011 14:24 dtvu wrote:
My problem with 13) a3:
+ Show Spoiler +
13)... Be7 - this move no one has looked at yet. The reason is that it's a positional play, which is Ng5's style. The line follows: 14) b4 Bc6 15) Nxe4 d5xe4 16) Nd2 Bd3 17) Nb3 . I think Black would get a very strong position and be able to nullify our pawn advantage.


My vote therefore is 13) 0-0
+ Show Spoiler +
Our pawn advantage is nullified by Ng5's superior position, I rather give back our tiny lead for better movements around the board. Afterall after 13) ...Nxd2 14) Nxd2 Bxd2 15) Bxd2 16) Ba5 we get a much better line of attack and open up the game quite a lot and wrestle back a superior positioning.


Edit note: added a link by mistake so deleted it.


In the end it come down to these 2 moves it seems. EIther go for positional gain or try to keep our lead and play it safe.

Still prefer 13. a3 + Show Spoiler +
simply because we already got outstanding position. We got a strong grip on the center already so our position good. We should just keep our lead and play it safe. I dont really see the danger of 13. Be7. There not much the bishop can do from this position and if he moves it here, we are free to be able to castle afterward. Either way he will have to give up his pinned on the knight or exchange trade.

Even if we can get the knight to that c5, it cant really hold it because of the knight that also controlling the center so I dont think controlling this square matters at this point.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
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