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On April 27 2012 18:51 pettter wrote:
IMO they should release a weapon patch where DMB gets a decent secondary and BRT gets a decent SMG/chaingun.
The problem with DMB is that they're kind of pigeon holed by the whole class system - Because his primary chaingun is that awesome, his secondary pretty much has to be a worthless piece of shit, otherwise you run the risk of him turning OP or/and overshadowing other classes in their nichés.
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On April 27 2012 18:40 MisterD wrote:
and here i thought hard was what people are looking for Oo If the capper fucked up he fucked up, if he just clicks suicide to restart, his fuck-up costed him about 5 seconds of game time, aka it's completely irrelevant if he fucks up or not because he has almost infinite retries. I don't think that's good.
If the capper fucks up and has to suicide he lost a lot more than just 5 seconds on respawn. He has to set up & run the route again(20-40 seconds depending on where), and running the rest of the offense is pointless if you have no one incoming to grab, meaning that's 25-45 seconds when your entire team is kind of in a limbo.
In Tribes, particularly small scale games like 7v7 a big part of the game is the decision on dispension & positioning of player resources. Having the right player in the right location at the right time is what ultimately sets the good apart from the bad and that wins you games.
In a game where distances are big but player population still relatively small, suicide is a neccessary mechanic that adds some much needed flexibility to keep the game fluid & fast paced. It allows chasers to follow suit after a flag return in the field. It allows offense to to switch up to escort/home D on successful grabs. It's a reset button that allows players who find themselves useless in their current field position to start over from home, and keep them in the game, instead of having to play a waiting game.
It's not an "easymode" button, but a necessary mechanic, which without the gameplay would break down horrendously.
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Uhm. This patch is _purely_ a hotfix(plasma gun, shrike), and then I assume they pushed some additional balance changes because there was no point in delaying. The LAR buff was mentioned by Bart in that interview thing posted on the last page, too. Do you really expect a weapon patch 3 days after the raider patch was released?
It's heartening to see HR fix broken shit so fast(although I haven't tested the patch myself... here's to hoping plasma was nerfed enough).
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On April 27 2012 18:58 Muey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 18:51 pettter wrote:
IMO they should release a weapon patch where DMB gets a decent secondary and BRT gets a decent SMG/chaingun. The problem with DMB is that they're kind of pigeon holed by the whole class system - Because his primary chaingun is that awesome, his secondary pretty much has to be a worthless piece of shit, otherwise you run the risk of him turning OP or/and overshadowing other classes in their nichés.
The pigeonholing I have no problem with. The lack of any useable offensive weapon besides the chaingun does. Sure I could run frag nades instead of mines and get 2-3 more opportunities to do damage, but apart from that, there is nothing. A small fusor or thumper or anything which I can fire without 5 seconds of lock-on is all I ask. It doesn't have to be good, or even more than barely useable, just anything is better than nothing.
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On April 27 2012 19:18 Muey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 18:40 MisterD wrote:
and here i thought hard was what people are looking for Oo If the capper fucked up he fucked up, if he just clicks suicide to restart, his fuck-up costed him about 5 seconds of game time, aka it's completely irrelevant if he fucks up or not because he has almost infinite retries. I don't think that's good. If the capper fucks up and has to suicide he lost a lot more than just 5 seconds on respawn. He has to set up & run the route again(20-40 seconds depending on where), and running the rest of the offense is pointless if you have no one incoming to grab, meaning that's 25-45 seconds when your entire team is kind of in a limbo. In Tribes, particularly small scale games like 7v7 a big part of the game is the decision on dispension & positioning of player resources. Having the right player in the right location at the right time is what ultimately sets the good apart from the bad and that wins you games. In a game where distances are big but player population still relatively small, suicide is a neccessary mechanic that adds some much needed flexibility to keep the game fluid & fast paced. It allows chasers to follow suit after a flag return in the field. It allows offense to to switch up to escort/home D on successful grabs. It's a reset button that allows players who find themselves useless in their current field position to start over from home, and keep them in the game, instead of having to play a waiting game. It's not an "easymode" button, but a necessary mechanic, which without the gameplay would break down horrendously.
you might be right that playing only 7v7 makes suicide a necessity because there are just too few people to maintain some sort of pacing in the game without. but the issue then is that you are trying to make a competitive scene playing a 16vs16 designed game with 7v7 players. thats less than half full. idk, that just feels bad. Compare league of legends, where the game is basically always played 100% the same in competitive and public, which i am quite sure is part of the reason why it has become so incredibly popular. IMO, it's just bad to play the game in unintended ways, starting with less than half full teams followed by often not returning the flag but bumping it around and suiciding yourself all the time, when you are trying to promote it.
i guess tribes ctf just can't be made into a good esport, mainly because it's not a good spectator game  first of all, it's a fps, which already ruins observability. secondly it has far too many points of interest (two flags with cappers plus two sets of generator rooms and base defenses) to follow at the same time, no two of which usually can be viewed from a single camera angle at once. And worst of all, either you play it "wrong" with too few players, which i think is detrimental as lined out above, or you play it with a lot of players, making it even worse of a spectator game and thus even harder to produce revenue to sustain such large teams. I guess there's no point in ranting on about it, unless anyone can come up with some good counter-arguments i'll probably have to write off tribes as a game with competitive matches to watch for myself.
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How many Tribes matches have you seen? Only a few and you're ready to write Tribes off as an watchable game? Is Tribes your first competitive fps? Most FPS on high level very often have different rule sets from pub play 'cause pub is pub, not really aimed at high level play. Obsing Tribes is very difficult, there's few guys who do good job as a camera man, it isn't really impossible to watch as long as the camera guy is really on top of the game(and you've at least basic understanding of the game). And how is shooting the flag to safer place somehow "lame" or however you view it, if the enemy capper touches the flag and dies right away of course you're going to have the flag at safer position. Sorry but your points don't really sound very convincing as to why Tribes can't be viewable good game.
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The main thing about watching and speccing tribes is that it really is all about the flag. Nobody real cares who is killing who unless it is in an important position/scenario. Your complaints about Tribes really are pretty ridiculous. You know what's lame? When sc 2 players stutterstep there marines. Why don't they just a-move? That's basically what you are saying. And the game is not, and never was, designed for 16v16. It's designed to HANDLE that many, but not balanced around that many.
But I agree that it is boring to watch spectate but that's because I don't like watching FPS spectate. I like seeing the first person cam.
On another note the new plasma rifle is good.
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On April 27 2012 20:02 MisterD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 19:18 Muey wrote:On April 27 2012 18:40 MisterD wrote:
and here i thought hard was what people are looking for Oo If the capper fucked up he fucked up, if he just clicks suicide to restart, his fuck-up costed him about 5 seconds of game time, aka it's completely irrelevant if he fucks up or not because he has almost infinite retries. I don't think that's good. If the capper fucks up and has to suicide he lost a lot more than just 5 seconds on respawn. He has to set up & run the route again(20-40 seconds depending on where), and running the rest of the offense is pointless if you have no one incoming to grab, meaning that's 25-45 seconds when your entire team is kind of in a limbo. In Tribes, particularly small scale games like 7v7 a big part of the game is the decision on dispension & positioning of player resources. Having the right player in the right location at the right time is what ultimately sets the good apart from the bad and that wins you games. In a game where distances are big but player population still relatively small, suicide is a neccessary mechanic that adds some much needed flexibility to keep the game fluid & fast paced. It allows chasers to follow suit after a flag return in the field. It allows offense to to switch up to escort/home D on successful grabs. It's a reset button that allows players who find themselves useless in their current field position to start over from home, and keep them in the game, instead of having to play a waiting game. It's not an "easymode" button, but a necessary mechanic, which without the gameplay would break down horrendously. you might be right that playing only 7v7 makes suicide a necessity because there are just too few people to maintain some sort of pacing in the game without. but the issue then is that you are trying to make a competitive scene playing a 16vs16 designed game with 7v7 players. thats less than half full. idk, that just feels bad. Compare league of legends, where the game is basically always played 100% the same in competitive and public, which i am quite sure is part of the reason why it has become so incredibly popular. IMO, it's just bad to play the game in unintended ways, starting with less than half full teams followed by often not returning the flag but bumping it around and suiciding yourself all the time, when you are trying to promote it. i guess tribes ctf just can't be made into a good esport, mainly because it's not a good spectator game first of all, it's a fps, which already ruins observability. secondly it has far too many points of interest (two flags with cappers plus two sets of generator rooms and base defenses) to follow at the same time, no two of which usually can be viewed from a single camera angle at once. And worst of all, either you play it "wrong" with too few players, which i think is detrimental as lined out above, or you play it with a lot of players, making it even worse of a spectator game and thus even harder to produce revenue to sustain such large teams. I guess there's no point in ranting on about it, unless anyone can come up with some good counter-arguments i'll probably have to write off tribes as a game with competitive matches to watch for myself.
I'm sorry? Even in 14v14 tribes 2 comp you suicide like a whore. Mess up a cap route?suicide. Return the flag? Suicide. Run out of ammo? Suicide. Suiciding is a core game mechanic and is here to stay, deal with it.
And whats the problem with moving the flag around? And all of this is absolutely intended. We've been doing it for 10 years in T2. That is why there is a flag timer.
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it's just bad to play the game in unintended ways, starting with less than half full teams followed by often not returning the flag but bumping it around and suiciding yourself all the time, when you are trying to promote it.
You realize that skiing was not "intended" in the first Tribes games either, right?
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Don't know if I still want to play anymore because of how hi rez is patching. Last time it was the jackal, this time the plasma gun, it's obvious they want to sell power. And don't give that "but you can get it for free" bullshit, if the vast majority of the player base can't get the weapon when it's released and before it's nerfed, you're selling power.
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On April 27 2012 21:46 3772 wrote:Show nested quote +it's just bad to play the game in unintended ways, starting with less than half full teams followed by often not returning the flag but bumping it around and suiciding yourself all the time, when you are trying to promote it. You realize that skiing was not "intended" in the first Tribes games either, right?
On April 27 2012 21:39 Coriolis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 20:02 MisterD wrote:On April 27 2012 19:18 Muey wrote:On April 27 2012 18:40 MisterD wrote:
and here i thought hard was what people are looking for Oo If the capper fucked up he fucked up, if he just clicks suicide to restart, his fuck-up costed him about 5 seconds of game time, aka it's completely irrelevant if he fucks up or not because he has almost infinite retries. I don't think that's good. If the capper fucks up and has to suicide he lost a lot more than just 5 seconds on respawn. He has to set up & run the route again(20-40 seconds depending on where), and running the rest of the offense is pointless if you have no one incoming to grab, meaning that's 25-45 seconds when your entire team is kind of in a limbo. In Tribes, particularly small scale games like 7v7 a big part of the game is the decision on dispension & positioning of player resources. Having the right player in the right location at the right time is what ultimately sets the good apart from the bad and that wins you games. In a game where distances are big but player population still relatively small, suicide is a neccessary mechanic that adds some much needed flexibility to keep the game fluid & fast paced. It allows chasers to follow suit after a flag return in the field. It allows offense to to switch up to escort/home D on successful grabs. It's a reset button that allows players who find themselves useless in their current field position to start over from home, and keep them in the game, instead of having to play a waiting game. It's not an "easymode" button, but a necessary mechanic, which without the gameplay would break down horrendously. you might be right that playing only 7v7 makes suicide a necessity because there are just too few people to maintain some sort of pacing in the game without. but the issue then is that you are trying to make a competitive scene playing a 16vs16 designed game with 7v7 players. thats less than half full. idk, that just feels bad. Compare league of legends, where the game is basically always played 100% the same in competitive and public, which i am quite sure is part of the reason why it has become so incredibly popular. IMO, it's just bad to play the game in unintended ways, starting with less than half full teams followed by often not returning the flag but bumping it around and suiciding yourself all the time, when you are trying to promote it. i guess tribes ctf just can't be made into a good esport, mainly because it's not a good spectator game first of all, it's a fps, which already ruins observability. secondly it has far too many points of interest (two flags with cappers plus two sets of generator rooms and base defenses) to follow at the same time, no two of which usually can be viewed from a single camera angle at once. And worst of all, either you play it "wrong" with too few players, which i think is detrimental as lined out above, or you play it with a lot of players, making it even worse of a spectator game and thus even harder to produce revenue to sustain such large teams. I guess there's no point in ranting on about it, unless anyone can come up with some good counter-arguments i'll probably have to write off tribes as a game with competitive matches to watch for myself. I'm sorry? Even in 14v14 tribes 2 comp you suicide like a whore. Mess up a cap route?suicide. Return the flag? Suicide. Run out of ammo? Suicide. Suiciding is a core game mechanic and is here to stay, deal with it. And whats the problem with moving the flag around? And all of this is absolutely intended. We've been doing it for 10 years in T2. That is why there is a flag timer.
I cannot relate to the previous game at all, never played it. As i said, it's not a problem, you can play the game whatever way you want. i personally just really dislike it and i think it's bad for presenting the game because it looks stupid and abusive of mechanics. Why would there be inventory stations for you to re-stock ammo or swap your class if you can just hit the suicide button to do it even faster? And of course even in 14v14 you suicide like a whore, simply because it's possible without any considerable penalty. I just don't think it's good.
(regarding the flag timer btw, i'd rather say it's there to reset the flag in case it gets stuck and nobody can retrieve it, just like the suicide button. but that's irrelevant to the discussion.)
I'm not trying to talk the game bad, i love playing it. I just hate watching it under these circumstances, and i think a lot of people, especially "outsiders", might feel the same, and it might be better to consider changing some of these things.
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On April 27 2012 22:09 Count9 wrote:
Don't know if I still want to play anymore because of how hi rez is patching. Last time it was the jackal, this time the plasma gun, it's obvious they want to sell power. And don't give that "but you can get it for free" bullshit, if the vast majority of the player base can't get the weapon when it's released and before it's nerfed, you're selling power.
Hirez has stated multiple times that they fucked up, releasing imbalanced weapons is actually costing them money because they have to put out separate patches. HiRezStew said it on the forums and Hirez bart said it in the EGS finals yesterday.
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On April 27 2012 22:30 Keltanokka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 22:09 Count9 wrote:
Don't know if I still want to play anymore because of how hi rez is patching. Last time it was the jackal, this time the plasma gun, it's obvious they want to sell power. And don't give that "but you can get it for free" bullshit, if the vast majority of the player base can't get the weapon when it's released and before it's nerfed, you're selling power. Hirez has stated multiple times that they fucked up, releasing imbalanced weapons is actually costing them money because they have to put out separate patches. HiRezStew said it on the forums and Hirez bart said it in the EGS finals yesterday.
well, you could release them broken deliberately so that more people impulse-buy them while they are imbalanced, rather than waiting until they have enough XP to unlock them without spending any money. It might be possible to earn more additional money in the short time it is broken than the separate patch afterwards costs (if you plan on it, you can design patching so that it really doesn't cost a lot of money...). And then going on a forum and posting "we're sorry, won't happen again" is rather easy and not an unusual thing to do for publishers in general. Doesn't mean that hirez is evil and does that, but it is a possibility and i'd wait to see if they actually stop releasing broken content and patching it a week after, before believing that apology.
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No...because that is an atrocious strategy for the long term, lol. There is absolutely no way they intend to do it if they intend for the game to become an esport with as much work as they put into it. They aren't going to throw it away for short-term profits, that's simply imbecilic and completely illogical. Also I think MisterD is a complete troll.
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so i'm a troll because i am arguing against two optimistic opinions on the game (and it's publisher) at once?
the tribes sales model is very much similar to the one used by riot in league of legends, and riot frequently gets blamed for intentionally releasing overpowered new champions once a week so that people immediately buy them and then balancing them out the next week. You have to admit that there's a possibility for hirez to behave this way. releasing overpowered content for a week and then balancing it out afterwards doesn't ruin a games long term survival, that argumentation isn't coherent. I have just learned better than to blindly trust publisher forum posts. Again, i'm not accusing hirez of anything, i'm actually hoping they really mean that and really did drop the ball. i'm just saying you shouldn't blindly believe everything you read.
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On April 28 2012 02:05 MisterD wrote:
so i'm a troll because i am arguing against two optimistic opinions on the game (and it's publisher) at once?
the tribes sales model is very much similar to the one used by riot in league of legends, and riot frequently gets blamed for intentionally releasing overpowered new champions once a week so that people immediately buy them and then balancing them out the next week. You have to admit that there's a possibility for hirez to behave this way. releasing overpowered content for a week and then balancing it out afterwards doesn't ruin a games long term survival, that argumentation isn't coherent. I have just learned better than to blindly trust publisher forum posts. Again, i'm not accusing hirez of anything, i'm actually hoping they really mean that and really did drop the ball. i'm just saying you shouldn't blindly believe everything you read.
While I do not agree that they would intentionally release overpowered shit, I would concede that it is more likely that they release OP than UP stuff, due to them wanting new weapons to, you know, be actually useful.
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Is the game freezing for anyone else? Since last night, I get to the game loading screen and it either crashes or the game is just stuck there.
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On April 28 2012 02:05 MisterD wrote:
so i'm a troll because i am arguing against two optimistic opinions on the game (and it's publisher) at once?
the tribes sales model is very much similar to the one used by riot in league of legends, and riot frequently gets blamed for intentionally releasing overpowered new champions once a week so that people immediately buy them and then balancing them out the next week. You have to admit that there's a possibility for hirez to behave this way. releasing overpowered content for a week and then balancing it out afterwards doesn't ruin a games long term survival, that argumentation isn't coherent. I have just learned better than to blindly trust publisher forum posts. Again, i'm not accusing hirez of anything, i'm actually hoping they really mean that and really did drop the ball. i'm just saying you shouldn't blindly believe everything you read.
The Jackal was fixed in 24 hours. The Plasma in a couple of days because they were trying to include some other bugfixes before they went through the whole thing.
You have Stew and Bart quoting that it was a mistake on their part. A stupid mistake. A Hi-Rez official actually used the term 'fucked up'.
Not even once during development and beta (when unlocking with gold was possible from the start) did they do a money grab. They often refunded players if they changed prices or items. They even rolled back the whole purchase system and refunded everyone everything once they switched to full customization.
Sorry. Hi-Rez is not an evil money grabbing collection of douches. They aren't EA. They just fucked up.
The Jackal wasn't intended to be used the way people did. So their rushed Q&A missed it.
The Plasma as far as I can tell had a bugged hitbox. The shrike was also broken in that patch btw, which they also fixed.
The Plasma rifle is fixed, so are shrikes. People will still complain because it is a strong weapon still, and I think airmails should be removed from it so it doesn't corrupt stats.
But look. They responded, they didn't drag it out.
Now drop it.
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On April 28 2012 09:20 Greth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:05 MisterD wrote:
so i'm a troll because i am arguing against two optimistic opinions on the game (and it's publisher) at once?
the tribes sales model is very much similar to the one used by riot in league of legends, and riot frequently gets blamed for intentionally releasing overpowered new champions once a week so that people immediately buy them and then balancing them out the next week. You have to admit that there's a possibility for hirez to behave this way. releasing overpowered content for a week and then balancing it out afterwards doesn't ruin a games long term survival, that argumentation isn't coherent. I have just learned better than to blindly trust publisher forum posts. Again, i'm not accusing hirez of anything, i'm actually hoping they really mean that and really did drop the ball. i'm just saying you shouldn't blindly believe everything you read. The Jackal was fixed in 24 hours. The Plasma in a couple of days because they were trying to include some other bugfixes before they went through the whole thing. You have Stew and Bart quoting that it was a mistake on their part. A stupid mistake. A Hi-Rez official actually used the term 'fucked up'. Not even once during development and beta (when unlocking with gold was possible from the start) did they do a money grab. They often refunded players if they changed prices or items. They even rolled back the whole purchase system and refunded everyone everything once they switched to full customization. Sorry. Hi-Rez is not an evil money grabbing collection of douches. They aren't EA. They just fucked up. The Jackal wasn't intended to be used the way people did. So their rushed Q&A missed it. The Plasma as far as I can tell had a bugged hitbox. The shrike was also broken in that patch btw, which they also fixed. The Plasma rifle is fixed, so are shrikes. People will still complain because it is a strong weapon still, and I think airmails should be removed from it so it doesn't corrupt stats. But look. They responded, they didn't drag it out. Now drop it.
I agree, and I think MisterD is completely misrepresenting and misinterpreting what's going on. Hi-Rez aren't trying to pull any kind of money grab with this. And it's not that they don't care. From what we've been told (and I see no reason to believe it's false), the main issue with the Plasma Gun was its hitbox being bugged when introduced to latency. Bad interpolation, whatever. Their QA test in 0-ping conditions. They say they fucked up; they admitted it, and they're patching it. I'm willing to give the devs the benefit of the doubt on this one.
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when it says +20% against armored: what does it mean by armored?
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EPT
