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Formula 1 - 2011 - Page 11

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Bairemuth
Profile Joined June 2010
United States404 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-09 13:17:17
May 09 2011 13:11 GMT
#201
Vettel has this championship wrapped up. No one can touch him. His only defeat was a result of poor tyre strategy. The battle for second will be exciting. It should be Webber's, but he's continuously inconsistant (Will his KERS ever work?!?!). Alonso has closed the gap, but it won't be enough to challenge Vettel.

Overall I thought Turkey was a decent race. I like the new rules as it does provide increased entertainment; however, the DRS system seems a little too strong. It's unbelieveable how fast a gap can be closed. Sometimes I swear the person trailing isn't even quicker, but only challenges and passes as a result of DRS. Clearly, everyone should learn by now to NOT make less pit stops than everyone else. Vettel learned this at China and Button in Turkey. Trying to turtle around the track with crappy tyres will not yield good results.
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13365 Posts
May 09 2011 13:25 GMT
#202
Vettel's just too good. He's eliminated that erratic side of his driving and no one is quick enough to keep up.

Unless one of the other manufacturers finds a better way to invent the wheel, Vettel looks like he'll sleepwalk through this season. Astonishing how easily he's doing it. Despite my misgivings towards Red Bulls treatment of Webber (I'm an Aussie fanboy afterall), there's no denying just how much better Vettel is right now.

Here's a question for the f1 fans here: if Vettel was driving for McLaren or Ferrari (maybe even Renault?) do you think his success would be similar? How much of his success do you attribute to his setup alone? To his driving ability?
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
mardi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1164 Posts
May 09 2011 13:36 GMT
#203
I haven't really followed F1 but it seems really interesting. They don't show F1 through the TV here where I live so I don't really follow and know all the ins and outs of it. Where do you guys watch the races or the VODS of the races? I'd much prefer watching F1 compared to nascar. I'll definitely be going to the Formula 1 races that are coming to Austin, TX in 2012 (seeing that I go to school here). I was talking to a few friends the other day and we were talking about formula one coming to austin and I saw this thread so I had to check it out. Seems like Vettel is dominating though. Is Vettel like Flash and Schumacher like Boxer/Nada of sc1?
Aristodemus
Profile Joined January 2011
England2010 Posts
May 09 2011 14:24 GMT
#204
It isnt a case of Vettel being too good, it is a case of the Red Bull being too good and Vettel just dominating Webber. He wouldnt have this sort of success in a Ferrari or McLaren, Alonso and Hamilton are the two best drivers in F1 right now. Red Bull have something, i dont know what, but they have something that the other teams do not. Similar to Williams active suspension in the early 90's, money talks in F1 and they just dont have a budget to compete with McLaren and Ferrari. Its really shining through in their qualifying performance, they are light years ahead but not so much on race pace. Do i think they are cheating? No. Do i think they are exploiting some sort or loophole like the F-Duct and double diffuser? Yes. Its clearly internal though and therefore incredibly difficult to figure out. McLaren have made complaints about the front wing flexing but i dont see that being the "secret". Fair play, Adrian Newey is a genius and McLaren should have just paid him what he wanted instead of taking the mentality that no one man is as important as the team.
Mardi, might i recommend the BBC coverage of F1. If you cant find a re-stream (im sure you can) then just torrent it and try to avoid the result, shouldnt be hard in USA lol. It is by far the best coverage worldwide and has won many awards since they got the rights to broadcast back again. I have also seen the track plans for Texas and it looks great, you should definitely go to that first race. No matter how much i express the awesomeness and noise of an F1 car you will not appreciate it until seeing one live. TV cannot do them justice. As for your last question, No and Yes. Vettel looks unstoppable but he is driving the best car, in the junior formula (with equal cars) he raced against Hamilton and i think he was owned 14-1 or something, like i said before Hamilton and Alonso are the two Flashes if you like. Schumacher was great (and a dirty great cheater too ) but he is a shadow of his former self now, im not even sure he will see out the season now after he admitted he isnt enjoying it after Turkey.
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
vdale
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1173 Posts
May 09 2011 14:52 GMT
#205
I don't agree that Vettel is a worse driver than Hamilton.
Aristodemus
Profile Joined January 2011
England2010 Posts
May 09 2011 15:21 GMT
#206
On May 09 2011 23:52 vdale wrote:
I don't agree that Vettel is a worse driver than Hamilton.

Based on?
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
Mob
Profile Joined April 2010
Austria152 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-09 16:13:36
May 09 2011 16:10 GMT
#207
i agree, based on personal hype.

and based on that F1 just perfectly fits his talent.
there are different styles and types in racing. those junior cars could have just fit better to hamilton.
maybe.
we will never know for sure.
i am convinced that seb is the best, since i saw him drive a very awesome car over some snowy mountain road in a way that took away my breath.
yadda!
vdale
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1173 Posts
May 09 2011 18:07 GMT
#208
On May 10 2011 00:21 Aristodemus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 09 2011 23:52 vdale wrote:
I don't agree that Vettel is a worse driver than Hamilton.

Based on?


It's always subjective, but just basing your opinion on the Junior Formula isn't very good, because Hamilton is two and a half years older than Vettel and every year of experience is very important in the early years.

from Wikipedia:
Vettel is the youngest Formula One driver to drive at a Grand Prix meeting, at 19 years and 53 days. At the 2007 US Grand Prix when he became the youngest driver to score championship points. While racing for Toro Rosso, Vettel became the youngest driver to lead a race at the 2007 Japanese Grand Prix. During qualifying for the 2008 Italian Grand Prix, Vettel became the youngest Formula One driver to secure pole position.[1] He went on to win the race, making him the youngest F1 race winner by nearly a year.[2] After joining Red Bull Racing in 2009 he finished the season as the youngest ever runner-up. The following year he went on to become the youngest driver ever to win the championship.

You can't say that he is only doing so good just because of his car, because he also achieved a lot with an inferior car (Toro Rosso).
Aristodemus
Profile Joined January 2011
England2010 Posts
May 09 2011 18:16 GMT
#209
I dont base my opinion on junior formula, i base it on everything. If you want i will go into alot of details.
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
Bairemuth
Profile Joined June 2010
United States404 Posts
May 09 2011 20:31 GMT
#210
Vettel definitely has the best car, but I think he is just as talented as Hamilton or Alonso. Though it really is all subjective and there is no way to know for sure. I wish it were possible to see how Vettel would perform with Hamilton's car. I'd supsect it would be very similar to what Hamilton is capable of.
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13365 Posts
May 10 2011 01:05 GMT
#211
On May 10 2011 03:16 Aristodemus wrote:
I dont base my opinion on junior formula, i base it on everything. If you want i will go into alot of details.


I'm curious to know! I enjoy F1, but am definitely a casual observer. It seems that the top 5-6 guys don't really have that much between them and their success would interchange based on who had the best car. I if I had to rank drivers atm it would probably look something like:
1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton
4. Button
5. Webber
6. The rest

But they all seem to be fairly close and it seems the car setup has more to do with results than driver skill. It's hard to judge driver skill as the only real metrics available to measure success are race results and qualifying.

The above is purely my own speculation based on what I've seen, but I think you could almost put any of those guys in the best car (and I'm sure there IS a difference in the package Vettel and Webber are driving at Red Bull) and they'd come out on top.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
Bairemuth
Profile Joined June 2010
United States404 Posts
May 10 2011 11:31 GMT
#212
On May 10 2011 10:05 RowdierBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 10 2011 03:16 Aristodemus wrote:
I dont base my opinion on junior formula, i base it on everything. If you want i will go into alot of details.


I'm curious to know! I enjoy F1, but am definitely a casual observer. It seems that the top 5-6 guys don't really have that much between them and their success would interchange based on who had the best car. I if I had to rank drivers atm it would probably look something like:
1. Vettel
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton
4. Button
5. Webber
6. The rest

But they all seem to be fairly close and it seems the car setup has more to do with results than driver skill. It's hard to judge driver skill as the only real metrics available to measure success are race results and qualifying.

The above is purely my own speculation based on what I've seen, but I think you could almost put any of those guys in the best car (and I'm sure there IS a difference in the package Vettel and Webber are driving at Red Bull) and they'd come out on top.


I'm not sure I'd give Button the #4 spot...I mean he is probably the worst driver to ever win a championship. He hasn't even come close to competing since then and Hamilton easily outclasses him every race. Though I don't know who else to give that spot to, maybe Webber I dunno. I think it's obvious that it's Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, and the rest.
Aristodemus
Profile Joined January 2011
England2010 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-10 18:31:19
May 10 2011 12:20 GMT
#213
If i rank people in F1 right now i will go:-
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Kubica
4. Vettel
5. Button
6. Rosberg

Ok, while i agree it is hard to rate drivers ability there are many ways you can get indications. So why are Hamilton and Alonso the best two?

Lewis Hamilton- In junior formula this guy has no equals, not even close. You can say that this has no bearing on his ability in F1 but i disagree, his level of success in a wide variety of cars shows versatility. As a result of this, for his debut in F1 at just 22 he was given the seat of one of the prestigious two teams (McLaren and Ferrari). This however comes with pro's and con's. He woud be able to showcase his talent and be given a car capable of winning races and possibly the title, on the downside he would be up against Fernando Alonso. At the time Alonso had just ended the domination of Schumacher quite brilliantly whilst driving for Renault winning back to back titles, and was the completely undisputed best driver. It was a daunting task to not look outclassed let alone compete with him. This was the only year i believe McLaren have had the best car, albeit not by much. From the very first race Hamilton was on the pace of Alonso, and as the season progressed he became more and more dominant. Going into the final two races he was clear favourite for the title despite the ridiculous in-fighting between the two drivers (read up on it if your interested) mainly caused by Alonso's pride being hurt. McLaren made a bad call in China which cost him dearly, trying to stay out on tyres until they were down to the canvas, something i have never seen before and as he pitted Lewis understeered into the gravel trap of the pitlane. In Brazil he suffered a gearbox malfunction in the opening laps which relegated him down to almost last. In the end he lost out on the title to Raikonnen but still finished ahead of his illustrious team-mate. This season is the best indicator of his talent. In 2008 he managed to take the title, despite some questionable penalties shall we say, and an inferior car to the Ferrari of Massa and Raikonnen. It was very close, winning it in the last corner of the very last race. He became the youngest ever world champion until it was beaten last year by Vettel. In 2009 McLaren produced a dog of a car, partly due to the fact they invested so much in the battle with Ferrari of 2008. He vastly over-achieved in this car and actually took two race wins as it was developed throughout the season. Last season he was given a decent car once again, however it wasnt close to the Red Bull, and was helped massively by the F-Duct. However as is the case in F1 the other teams will copy a successful concept and by the second half of the season it was clear the McLaren was the third fastest car. Despite this, he was able to fight tooth and nail for the title with Vettel, Webber and Alonso and had quite a large advantage at one point. Three races ended this though, a gearbox failure and two racing incidents both very similar to each other with fairly light contact resulting in Hamiltons car retiring. It cost him the title in my opinion. To summarize, no team-mate has ever beaten Hamilton, and only Alonso has come close to doing so.

Fernando Alonso- Fernando has had quite a career so far, very colourful and entertaining at times but no objective person can deny the immense talent he has. He was one of the first of the "new generation" of drivers benefiting from allowing kids to compete at a younger age in karting, and had a very successful junior career. This earned him a spot in F1 at a very young age (not so uncommon now) although it was only at Minardi who were the slowest team by some margin. All he could do really was beat his team-mate. He did this by a huge margin though which made eveyone take notice of him, even if some discreditted his team-mates rather than credit Alonso. He even beat other teams on a couple of occassions, quite remarkable really. He was promoted to test driver of Renault the next year with a race seat the following year (ousting Jenson Button and nearly costing him his career). He managed a great win at Hungary to become the youngest ever race winner (later to be beaten by Hamilton and Vettel). The real magic however began in 2005, at the time Ferrari and Schumacher were cruising to championships (5 on the trot) for a variety of reasons but not this year. Alonso and Raikkonen had an insane battle for the title with the McLaren having more speed but less reliability. After he secured the title in Brazil, Alonso drove perhaps the greatest race i have have ever seen at Suzuka passing people left right and centre. Unfortunately for him he didnt get the credit he deserved as Raikkonen won the race from 20th on the grid in the much superior McLaren. In 2006 he again won the title, this time with an epic battle with Schumacher where he completely dethroned the German and essentially ended his career. Alonso had some magnificent drives this year, notably in Hungary where he carved his way through the field only to be cruelly denied victory with his wheel falling off after a pitstop. Due to his incredible performances and Raikonnens decision to replace Schumacher at Ferrari, Alonso signed for McLaren (see above^^). He terminated his own contract with them the following year to return to Renault who had become a midfield team and had a fairly uneventful couple of years albeit winning two races in 2008 (one as a result of cheating). Last year the Ferrari was clearly inferior to the Red Bull but yet Alonso was only denied the title by a bad call from the Ferrari team in the final race and his inability to overtake the Renault of Petrov. To sum up his career so far, it has been quite brilliant, his only flaw being 2007 which i think came as a bit of a shock to him. It seems he is back on track now though.
once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more
thebigdonkey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States354 Posts
May 11 2011 18:56 GMT
#214
Hamilton is definitely the most aggressive driver in F1. I think he has trouble managing a race though. Whether it's saving his tires by driving conservatively or just picking his spots to overtake, his aggressiveness can hurt him as much as it helps him (see Singapore last year when he tried to overtake Webber and ended up crashing out and ruining his championship chances).

It's really hard to say how good Vettel is at the moment. He had some very good results (including a race win in the wet) for Toro Rosso which is very very impressive. But last year and then so far this year, the Red Bull car has been just a superior platform all around. With the F-Duct gone this year, top speed is no longer the huge weakness it used to be for Red Bull so on the faster tracks like Monza and Spa, they are no longer at a significant disadvantage. Vettel wins the championship easily this year, but I don't think it will be a true indicator of his talent.
Noam
Profile Joined September 2010
Israel2209 Posts
May 12 2011 12:57 GMT
#215
I think the DRS zone was too long in Turkey. They are going to have to be very careful with this feature if they don't want races to turn into a joke.

I remember in previous seasons where drivers would close the gap to the car infront of them by 1-2 seconds/lap and then be unable to pass once they were right behind it, but this season it seems like the opposite.
As long as you can be less than 1 second behind in the DRS activation line the pass seemed guaranteed.
Liquipedia
thebigdonkey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States354 Posts
May 13 2011 18:43 GMT
#216
On May 12 2011 21:57 Noam wrote:
I think the DRS zone was too long in Turkey. They are going to have to be very careful with this feature if they don't want races to turn into a joke.

I remember in previous seasons where drivers would close the gap to the car infront of them by 1-2 seconds/lap and then be unable to pass once they were right behind it, but this season it seems like the opposite.
As long as you can be less than 1 second behind in the DRS activation line the pass seemed guaranteed.


Alonso said after the race that tire degradation is leading to more overtaking than DRS. I do agree that overtaking seems so much less epic this year. I'm on the fence whether I like this style more or less.
vdale
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany1173 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 12:06:05
May 14 2011 12:05 GMT
#217
On May 10 2011 21:20 Aristodemus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If i rank people in F1 right now i will go:-
1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Kubica
4. Vettel
5. Button
6. Rosberg

Ok, while i agree it is hard to rate drivers ability there are many ways you can get indications. So why are Hamilton and Alonso the best two?

Lewis Hamilton- In junior formula this guy has no equals, not even close. You can say that this has no bearing on his ability in F1 but i disagree, his level of success in a wide variety of cars shows versatility. As a result of this, for his debut in F1 at just 22 he was given the seat of one of the prestigious two teams (McLaren and Ferrari). This however comes with pro's and con's. He woud be able to showcase his talent and be given a car capable of winning races and possibly the title, on the downside he would be up against Fernando Alonso. At the time Alonso had just ended the domination of Schumacher quite brilliantly whilst driving for Renault winning back to back titles, and was the completely undisputed best driver. It was a daunting task to not look outclassed let alone compete with him. This was the only year i believe McLaren have had the best car, albeit not by much. From the very first race Hamilton was on the pace of Alonso, and as the season progressed he became more and more dominant. Going into the final two races he was clear favourite for the title despite the ridiculous in-fighting between the two drivers (read up on it if your interested) mainly caused by Alonso's pride being hurt. McLaren made a bad call in China which cost him dearly, trying to stay out on tyres until they were down to the canvas, something i have never seen before and as he pitted Lewis understeered into the gravel trap of the pitlane. In Brazil he suffered a gearbox malfunction in the opening laps which relegated him down to almost last. In the end he lost out on the title to Raikonnen but still finished ahead of his illustrious team-mate. This season is the best indicator of his talent. In 2008 he managed to take the title, despite some questionable penalties shall we say, and an inferior car to the Ferrari of Massa and Raikonnen. It was very close, winning it in the last corner of the very last race. He became the youngest ever world champion until it was beaten last year by Vettel. In 2009 McLaren produced a dog of a car, partly due to the fact they invested so much in the battle with Ferrari of 2008. He vastly over-achieved in this car and actually took two race wins as it was developed throughout the season. Last season he was given a decent car once again, however it wasnt close to the Red Bull, and was helped massively by the F-Duct. However as is the case in F1 the other teams will copy a successful concept and by the second half of the season it was clear the McLaren was the third fastest car. Despite this, he was able to fight tooth and nail for the title with Vettel, Webber and Alonso and had quite a large advantage at one point. Three races ended this though, a gearbox failure and two racing incidents both very similar to each other with fairly light contact resulting in Hamiltons car retiring. It cost him the title in my opinion. To summarize, no team-mate has ever beaten Hamilton, and only Alonso has come close to doing so.

Fernando Alonso- Fernando has had quite a career so far, very colourful and entertaining at times but no objective person can deny the immense talent he has. He was one of the first of the "new generation" of drivers benefiting from allowing kids to compete at a younger age in karting, and had a very successful junior career. This earned him a spot in F1 at a very young age (not so uncommon now) although it was only at Minardi who were the slowest team by some margin. All he could do really was beat his team-mate. He did this by a huge margin though which made eveyone take notice of him, even if some discreditted his team-mates rather than credit Alonso. He even beat other teams on a couple of occassions, quite remarkable really. He was promoted to test driver of Renault the next year with a race seat the following year (ousting Jenson Button and nearly costing him his career). He managed a great win at Hungary to become the youngest ever race winner (later to be beaten by Hamilton and Vettel). The real magic however began in 2005, at the time Ferrari and Schumacher were cruising to championships (5 on the trot) for a variety of reasons but not this year. Alonso and Raikkonen had an insane battle for the title with the McLaren having more speed but less reliability. After he secured the title in Brazil, Alonso drove perhaps the greatest race i have have ever seen at Suzuka passing people left right and centre. Unfortunately for him he didnt get the credit he deserved as Raikkonen won the race from 20th on the grid in the much superior McLaren. In 2006 he again won the title, this time with an epic battle with Schumacher where he completely dethroned the German and essentially ended his career. Alonso had some magnificent drives this year, notably in Hungary where he carved his way through the field only to be cruelly denied victory with his wheel falling off after a pitstop. Due to his incredible performances and Raikonnens decision to replace Schumacher at Ferrari, Alonso signed for McLaren (see above^^). He terminated his own contract with them the following year to return to Renault who had become a midfield team and had a fairly uneventful couple of years albeit winning two races in 2008 (one as a result of cheating). Last year the Ferrari was clearly inferior to the Red Bull but yet Alonso was only denied the title by a bad call from the Ferrari team in the final race and his inability to overtake the Renault of Petrov. To sum up his career so far, it has been quite brilliant, his only flaw being 2007 which i think came as a bit of a shock to him. It seems he is back on track now though.


Nobody is denying that Hamilton and Alonso are extremely talented, but so is Vettel. You can't say that Hamilton is better than Vettel just by pointing out what Hamilton did.




In 2006 he again won the title, this time with an epic battle with Schumacher where he completely dethroned the German and essentially ended his career.

Alonso didn't end Schumacher's career, because Schumacher announced his retirement shortly before he took the lead in the championship. Alonso also didn't completely dethrone Schumacher.
thebigdonkey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States354 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-20 21:18:18
May 20 2011 21:17 GMT
#218
This is going to be a crazy race weekend I think. Longest DRS zone + most tire degradation of the year = record amounts of overtaking. Can't see anyone beating Red Bull on that track. I'm interested to see the tire strategy during qualifying. Given the difference in performance between the two compounds, teams may be wise to conserve tires during quali at all costs.
Lori.
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany97 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-20 21:54:55
May 20 2011 21:39 GMT
#219
I'm hoping ferrari has improved their car to give alonso a better chance to win. Alonso is definitly the best driver since Senna.
Klive5ive
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-20 21:57:22
May 20 2011 21:52 GMT
#220
To suggest that Vettel is the best is incredibly short-sighted. It's basically all from this years hype which is just the fastest car running away from the field.
Last year he barely beat Mark Webber, who is incredibly inconsistent and can't be considered a top driver anymore.
Look at what Jenson did to win his title, he beat Barichello and ran away with it. Not many would argue that Jenson was the best driver in the world because of that.
Given the chance Vettel has had many drivers could have won last year with ease and be just as far ahead this year.

In terms of raw pace and ability I think Hamilton is probably the best in F1.
He beat Alonso in his first year, an incredibly feat, and now he's making Jenson button look slow.
That's 2 world champions that can't keep up with him.
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