|
I see a lot of people saluting Heroes 3 as the pinnacle of the series, but I really disagree. The third didn't really create anything new from the second game. Yes, it rehauled the races, yes it "upgraded" (also known as broke) necromancy, yes it added more units, but really, it was in no way superior to heroes 2, gameplay wise. More than anything, it removed racial differences as well as devalued agressive gameplay thanks to the capital income.
The negative changes from 2 to 3 includes
- Capital income
- Supercharged necromancy
- Upgrades for EVERY unit
- Terrible Magic Missile-sound!!!!
Capital income encourages turtling on your income rather than agressive expansion and exploring. Yes, you need special resources, but the map makers and random map generators always placed them within your "safe area", meaning you didn't really have to explore past your safe little center of the universe to get what you needed, and since you had 4k income + hero bonus, you'd not have to leave your pocket of perfect safety till you had your home castle pretty much fully upgraded. Stale and static.
A part about the very limited income of 1k was that if your opponent decided to be ballsy and get a gold mine outside his territorry, he'd be outproducing you insanely hard. 1k + 1k is far more significant than 4k + 1k. Lower home income and higher relative potential gain resulted in a far more dynamic and agressive game.
The low income also forces a higher awareness of your army composition. You won't be able to purchase all the dwelling each week, so you need to be very careful in what you choose. Half or more of the dwelling will be left, meaning your choice of composition will be very determinal to your game, causing for more exciting fights than "I have produced for x round, he's produced for y rounds, ergo I win"-borefests.
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
With upgrades available for every unit, the races lost a lot of their uniqueness. With every unit having upgrade potential, all your base unit feels like placeholders, meaning it'll encourage turtling till you've got the upgraded dwelling - "If i go out now, I'll lose 'em since they aren't upgraded to no-retal / max range / crazy defense / no retal / blood drain / face rape / etc". With some units only at one tier, they added phases in the game where one race was more suited for exploration than others. Warlock, for instance, with their centaur at tier 1 and gargoyles at tier 2, were an early agressive race. Fast archer, durable and fast support. In addition, the three upgraded tiers of Dragons really made them unique. The green dragon was good, but weak. If you managed to get your tower to red dragons, they really started to kick ass. Black dragon? Jesus, you must have been agressive to get this much sulfur! But with heroes 3, everything was standardized. "This is your base unit. This is your upgraded unit. The base unit sucks. The upgraded unit is cool. All the races work like this. Turtle some with your capital while you upgrade, kekekekeke."
Oh, and standardized upgrades also meant that whoever attacked got double the disadvantage - enemy castle defenses as well as technology disadvantage from having to move from point A to B without being able to tech the YOU HAVE TO TECH THESE-units compared to his enemy, making it pointless to move out without upgraded units, meaning anything but turtling was pretty much suicide.
Last, but most important - Magic missile? The iconic FYOIIIING sound is what made the spell so great! In heroes 3, it's replaced by some generic magical projectile crap - no whistling silver arrow of awesome anymore!
Heroes 5 is enjoyable as the leveling and skill system has gotten a very nice rework, which is great, but unfortunately, it didn't remove itself from the standardized races and turtle potential. It's unfortunately doubtful they'll return to the things that made heroes 2 so good compared to 3, but it will probably still be a great game.
What WOULD make heroes 6 smell the glory of heroes 2 would be changes such as
- Reverted low income, 250 > 500 >1k.
- Varied ammounts of upgrades for different races, spaced out intelligently to give various races strenghts at various stages of the game - tier 1 with 3 upgrades? Sure! Tier 7 with no upgrades? Awesome! A race without a tier 7 unit at all? Wicked!
as well as general changes that could improve the game, such as
- Units blocking / reducing ranged line of sight in combat. Eg, shoot past the tile of an enemy unit into a unit behind, lose 1/2 / all ranged attack power, meaning strategic placement of units more important.
|
On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
I see a lot of people saluting Heroes 3 as the pinnacle of the series, but I really disagree. The third didn't really create anything new from the second game. Yes, it rehauled the races, yes it "upgraded" (also known as broke) necromancy, yes it added more units, but really, it was in no way superior to heroes 2, gameplay wise. More than anything, it removed racial differences as well as devalued agressive gameplay thanks to the capital income.
The negative changes from 2 to 3 includes
- Capital income
- Supercharged necromancy
- Upgrades for EVERY unit
- Terrible Magic Missile-sound!!!!
Capital income encourages turtling on your income rather than agressive expansion and exploring. Yes, you need special resources, but the map makers and random map generators always placed them within your "safe area", meaning you didn't really have to explore past your safe little center of the universe to get what you needed, and since you had 4k income + hero bonus, you'd not have to leave your pocket of perfect safety till you had your home castle pretty much fully upgraded. Stale and static.
A part about the very limited income of 1k was that if your opponent decided to be ballsy and get a gold mine outside his territorry, he'd be outproducing you insanely hard. 1k + 1k is far more significant than 4k + 1k. Lower home income and higher relative potential gain resulted in a far more dynamic and agressive game.
The low income also forces a higher awareness of your army composition. You won't be able to purchase all the dwelling each week, so you need to be very careful in what you choose. Half or more of the dwelling will be left, meaning your choice of composition will be very determinal to your game, causing for more exciting fights than "I have produced for x round, he's produced for y rounds, ergo I win"-borefests.
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
With upgrades available for every unit, the races lost a lot of their uniqueness. With every unit having upgrade potential, all your base unit feels like placeholders, meaning it'll encourage turtling till you've got the upgraded dwelling - "If i go out now, I'll lose 'em since they aren't upgraded to no-retal / max range / crazy defense / no retal / blood drain / face rape / etc". With some units only at one tier, they added phases in the game where one race was more suited for exploration than others. Warlock, for instance, with their centaur at tier 1 and gargoyles at tier 2, were an early agressive race. Fast archer, durable and fast support. In addition, the three upgraded tiers of Dragons really made them unique. The green dragon was good, but weak. If you managed to get your tower to red dragons, they really started to kick ass. Black dragon? Jesus, you must have been agressive to get this much sulfur! But with heroes 3, everything was standardized. "This is your base unit. This is your upgraded unit. The base unit sucks. The upgraded unit is cool. All the races work like this. Turtle some with your capital while you upgrade, kekekekeke."
Oh, and standardized upgrades also meant that whoever attacked got double the disadvantage - enemy castle defenses as well as technology disadvantage from having to move from point A to B without being able to tech the YOU HAVE TO TECH THESE-units compared to his enemy, making it pointless to move out without upgraded units, meaning anything but turtling was pretty much suicide.
Last, but most important - Magic missile? The iconic FYOIIIING sound is what made the spell so great! In heroes 3, it's replaced by some generic magical projectile crap - no whistling silver arrow of awesome anymore!
Heroes 5 is enjoyable as the leveling and skill system has gotten a very nice rework, which is great, but unfortunately, it didn't remove itself from the standardized races and turtle potential. It's unfortunately doubtful they'll return to the things that made heroes 2 so good compared to 3, but it will probably still be a great game.
What WOULD make heroes 6 smell the glory of heroes 2 would be changes such as
- Reverted low income, 250 > 500 >1k.
- Varied ammounts of upgrades for different races, spaced out intelligently to give various races strenghts at various stages of the game - tier 1 with 3 upgrades? Sure! Tier 7 with no upgrades? Awesome! A race without a tier 7 unit at all? Wicked!
as well as general changes that could improve the game, such as
- Units blocking / reducing ranged line of sight in combat. Eg, shoot past the tile of an enemy unit into a unit behind, lose 1/2 / all ranged attack power, meaning strategic placement of units more important.
I swear to god I played HoMM3 forever and they only gave me Skeletons. Are you talking about HoMM4 or 5?
By the way, even though HoMM5 has Capitol, it's not comparable to HoMM3. Without any other supplements to your income, a Capitol won't support all of your creatures.
In fact, in HoMM3, a Capitol is enough to recruit all weekly creatures from tier1 to tier7. Try that in HoMM5 and you will utterly fail.
Also, I don't upgrade every single creature in HoMM5. It's simply too expensive, so I'd rather move out sooner. In fact, it's very difficult to build all of the unupgraded dwellings in HoMM5.
Even in HoMM3, you don't have to upgrade everything. For example Demons are not worth upgrading as the extra cost only reflect in minor improvements in attack.
Missiles limited by line of sight is already in HoMM4. Seriously though, it sucks. It's rather unpredictable when it works and when it does not. When it does not work in your favour, it can be deadly.
EDIT: I don't agree that certain race should omit a certain tier of units. The game since 3 has the same number of creatures for each faction. I think this balanced design is the best design. However, in HoMM3 - 5, most factions have de facto missing tiers. For example:
in HoMM3:
- Bone Dragon is at most tier 6.5; Necropolis doesn't really offer any real tier 7 units. This problem is also in HoMM5.
- Genie is at most tier 3.5-4; Academy does not really have a real tier 5 unit.
- Minotaur is tier 5.5-6; Dungeon does not really have a real tier 5 unit.
in HoMM4:
- Vampires are at least tier 3.5, some people will argue that they are tier 4 units.
- Champions are tier 3.5 at most. Angels are not so good either.
in HoMM5:
- I really like Shadow Witch. But I think they are tier 5.5 for their low damage and health.
- Necropolis' tier 2 and tier 3 are so poor that if they weren't required by Capitol and Castle I would never build their dwellings. Then there is Bone Dragon, as mentioned above.
- Priests got pitiful damage. I think they are really tier 4.
- Due to the special ability of Goblins, I think they should be tier 0.5.
-
|
On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item.
What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either.
It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more.
|
The only thing I did not like about heroes 5 was that the computer turns take FOREVER, even on extremely powerful hardware. Playing RMG with AI was not fun at all due to the absurd time the computers took for their turns.
|
On December 14 2010 11:47 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item. What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either. It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more.
Yes, the numbers grow very large, very quickly, I remember going through one of the standalone games with Tarnum with Expert Necromancy and just rolled through everything with some obscene number of Skels on impossible.
|
Might and Magic 6 was an awesome game.
|
Count me as another person with fond memories of HoMM3, though I've had no real in-depth experience with 4 & 5, so I'll reserve judgement on gameplay. What mostly displeased me in the latter two, and worries me about MMH6, is the art and visuals. 3D is part of it, but mostly it's looking at the units and not being quite sure what to make of them. Much of the charm of the old cartoonish 2D was that you could easily distinguish and name the units: cyclops, manticore, roc, dwarf - they were simply yet expressively drawn, without any superfluous adornments. I haven't touched the game in years (and I really should), but just looking at the name I recall the image.
Regarding HoMM2's influence on 3, I think it was a classic case of not fixing what was not broken. The third game was very much like the second, which was a masterpiece unto itself, and it simply improved on it. Given that we're on a Starcraft forum, we have all probably pondered the results of changing that which is mostly perfect 
And since Disciples was mentioned, I must spare a moment to remember just how FRICKIN GORGEOUS that game was. I don't remember a single thing about it (it was very hero-focused, right?), except the beautiful atmosphere and artwork.
|
On December 14 2010 11:47 Manit0u wrote:
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item.
What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either.
It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more.
Especially once you start getting those +2 life to all units items.
|
Looks good! Im soo looking forward to heroes 6.
|
MnM 3 was definitely the pinnacle of the series. 2 was pretty good too, but after 3 it just went dooooownhill
|
On December 14 2010 11:47 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item. What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either. It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more.
Hmm, I was sure it was in heroes 3 + expansions someplace, but of course, my memory could be clouded. It's a few years since I played it last.
|
Hungary go!!! make HoM&M 6 good!!!
|
oops, i haven't play HoMM 5 yet. guess time to play it now!
|
On December 14 2010 19:40 plated.rawr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 11:47 Manit0u wrote:On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item. What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either. It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more. Hmm, I was sure it was in heroes 3 + expansions someplace, but of course, my memory could be clouded. It's a few years since I played it last.
In Shadow of Death they introduced set items and one of them was called "Cloak of the Undead King" which let you raise zombies, wraiths and liches respectively, depending on your necromancy level. But it was only really useful campaign only. The chances of constructing this artefact in a normal custom scenario game were slim to none when it mattered (early/mid game).
You needed boots of the undertaker, vampire cowl, and amulet of necromancy to get construct the cloak. Chances of YOU finding all 3 of these items and assembling it were loltastic. Also, skellies > everything. Sheer number is better than less more powerful shooters. I'd rather have 10K skellies than ~300 liches, kthx. Liches were pitiful actually. Necropolis' creatures were rather slow (bone/ghost dragon's couldn't compete with black dragons, archangels, phoenixes, archdevils, gold dragons in terms of speed) so they rarely got to move 1st. Cast mass haste on your army = type up liches = lol they regret having liches instead of skellies.
Despite that, Manit0u was correct. Necromancy and Diplomacy were broken. If you couldn't straight up kill the neutrals for skellies, you could always have them join you and make skellies out of them in your castle in full number.
I absolutely loved Homm 3. I think the capitols, the broken town portal, everything had a place.
Homm 5 managed to replicate a lot of that but like I said the AI screwed it all over anyway.
Homm 6 looks just like homm5 just with a few tiers of units switched up, and a few new units added.
and lol:+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs971.snc4/76479_10150328690020434_835220433_16192049_1985892_n.jpg) = Fallen Summoner from Armies of Exigo, much?
|
Oh boy, HoMM 6. Like many here, I just love 2 and 3. I still play 3 every now and then, it's just so damn good. I went right back to 3 when I tried HoMM 4, and I just found 5 to be pretty bad, not to mention the ridiculous amount of time I had to wait between turns.
How I wish for a new HoMM game in the good old style.
|
dude i cant thank you enough for making this thread. i played HoMM 2 when i was a kid but i was too young to ever win and too young to remember, and i've been searching for the game ever since. now i know what it is, <3 :D
|
On December 14 2010 11:47 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 10:31 plated.rawr wrote:
Supercharged necromancy - with this I mean the scaling unit return (up untill Vampire Lord I think it was?). On grandmaster necromancy you got something like 20% + hero speciality + 10% per necrospire of killed enemies returned in hitpoints as Vampire Lords, who were practically unkillable thanks to lifedrain, no retaliation and Raise Dead. Compare that to Heroes 2 base skeleton only-ressurection, and you can see what was a handy cannon fodder-production ability turned into a gamebreaking powerhouse without equal.
I'm sorry but you're wrong on this one. Raising Vampire Lords was in HoMM4, not 3. In 3 you had your skellies, upgraded skellies (depending on available slots and your army composition) and liches if you got some uber set item. What was broken with Necromancy (it was banned, along with Diplomacy in every tournament possible) was the fact that with hero specializing in it, you got so many skelingtons (unupgraded ones ofc, you get more of them and it's all about numbers) that you breeze through any opponent. 10 dragons can't be 9k skelingtons, sorry. The rest of your army won't be of much help either. It was very boring style of play as you attacked everything in your path, took critters out of every single on-map dwelling and whatever else you could, just to get as many skeletons as possible (and trust me, this numbers grow pretty fast on some maps) to reach your initial critical mass at which point the snowball effect starts to take place and you don't have to fear any more.
That's why they had destroy undead as a spell : )
And really Necromancy wasnt that good, there were a lot of earlier talents that helped you along in the long term. Necromancy owned with the "uber set item" of which you talked about though.
|
On December 14 2010 08:33 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 03:35 Manit0u wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 13 2010 23:53 alypse wrote:
I just watched the trailer. The music is breath-taking. If they can compose epic scores like this for the game, it will be a must buy for me. HoMM5 had very decent scores too: (from 2:08 it's simply epic, I love choruses!) It's also worth to check out the theme musics for various towns. The most memorable HoMM theme for me still remains the same though: + Show Spoiler +Edit: As long as they'll keep Paul Anthony Romero doing their music, they'll be fine . I think you forgot the themes for the Towns. The ones for Haven and Sylvan are simply epic. + Show Spoiler +The music in HoMM4 were good, too. HoMM5 Sylvan: + Show Spoiler +HoMM5 Haven (wait until 0:50): + Show Spoiler +HoMM4 Sea: + Show Spoiler +HoMM4 Hope: + Show Spoiler +HoMM4 Chaos (start at 1:10, or 1:45): + Show Spoiler +EDIT: one more: HoMM2 Sorceress + Show Spoiler +epic =D
Holy... I played from HOMM 3 => 5, but how could I've not noticed these epic music? Maybe because I mostly rushed through the campaigns or too focused on the gameplay. Now go back and listen to them they feel sooo amazing. Thank you Manitou and Sufficiency for opening my eyes @@
|
just a quick question, does anyone remember any games on the amiga which were similar to homm. i recall playing a game before heroes (perhaps not in terms of release date) which had the same hexagon based side angled combat system. cant remember much more then that, it did have a map view but it was much simpler then homm, dont think their were any castles mines etc. just the combat screen was very close to homm style.
|
On December 14 2010 21:32 Stone[MB] wrote:
just a quick question, does anyone remember any games on the amiga which were similar to homm. i recall playing a game before heroes (perhaps not in terms of release date) which had the same hexagon based side angled combat system. cant remember much more then that, it did have a map view but it was much simpler then homm, dont think their were any castles mines etc. just the combat screen was very close to homm style.
Maybe it was disciples
+ Show Spoiler +
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciples:_Sacred_Lands
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/4049/62707_full.jpg)
