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On June 15 2013 15:31 DEN1ED wrote:There is no way you shouldnt have been playing the pack rat. 39 swamps and rat is probably as good or better than what you played. Won round 1 so far with this. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b9F5Kqj.jpg) p1p1 I went spellstutter over lightning helix because well, I like faeries and not a fan of RW.
This list looks so much better than my UB list from earlier tonight,  , although I was splashing red with vivid lands and had burn spells to supplement my awful card quality. I at least got the win rd 1 vs a mill deck by just boarding in more cards, since my card quality was about the same anyways.
Playing some Magic Online modern masters because why not, limited play time, might as well get some games in on the format while I still can.
Pack Rat is amazing always play it.
All of my vegas friends are complaining about how big the GP is getting, over 2500 pre-registered, it's almost at the point where I'm glad I couldn't go  .
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United States24745 Posts
On June 15 2013 15:51 BlueBird. wrote:
Pack Rat is amazing always play it.
Are you suggesting to splash it with one cluestone, or perhaps to start drafting black cards in the third booster? Or are you advocating going 39 swamps?
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On June 15 2013 15:55 micronesia wrote:Are you suggesting to splash it with one cluestone, or perhaps to start drafting black cards in the third booster? Or are you advocating going 39 swamps?
These people don't know what they're talking about, it's a horrible idea to splash Pack Rat when you're playing 3 other colors and can't reliably cast it on turn 2.
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On June 15 2013 15:47 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 15:31 DEN1ED wrote:
There is no way you shouldnt have been playing the pack rat. 39 swamps and rat is probably as good or better than what you played. How? I know it's very good, but that sounds a bit extreme. Are you seriously saying that's what I should have done? Because... the only other way to play it would be to splash it with one cluestone.
I'm not sure what kind of cards you had in your sb, but you could have cut red and been UW splashing pack rat at the very least.
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On June 15 2013 15:59 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 15:55 micronesia wrote:On June 15 2013 15:51 BlueBird. wrote:
Pack Rat is amazing always play it.
Are you suggesting to splash it with one cluestone, or perhaps to start drafting black cards in the third booster? Or are you advocating going 39 swamps? These people don't know what they're talking about, it's a horrible idea to splash Pack Rat when you're playing 3 other colors and can't reliably cast it on turn 2.
That's why you cut your worst color and start drafting some black. A "terrible" deck that has pack rat is much better than the mediocre deck he drafted.
On June 15 2013 15:51 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 15:31 DEN1ED wrote:There is no way you shouldnt have been playing the pack rat. 39 swamps and rat is probably as good or better than what you played. Won round 1 so far with this. p1p1 I went spellstutter over lightning helix because well, I like faeries and not a fan of RW. This list looks so much better than my UB list from earlier tonight, , although I was splashing red with vivid lands and had burn spells to supplement my awful card quality. I at least got the win rd 1 vs a mill deck by just boarding in more cards, since my card quality was about the same anyways. .
Ya I felt trying to stay straight UB was the best way to go. There was a lot of burn I could have picked but I only had 1 terramorphic and Id rather just have a consistent deck.
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On June 15 2013 16:10 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 15:47 micronesia wrote:On June 15 2013 15:31 DEN1ED wrote:
There is no way you shouldnt have been playing the pack rat. 39 swamps and rat is probably as good or better than what you played. How? I know it's very good, but that sounds a bit extreme. Are you seriously saying that's what I should have done? Because... the only other way to play it would be to splash it with one cluestone. I'm not sure what kind of cards you had in your sb, but you could have cut red and been UW splashing pack rat at the very least.
Quality aside, recommending someone to cut 8 playables in a color they have fixing for, for 1 playable in a color they do not have fixing for, is terrible advice. Pack Rat is not very effective when it's cast late unless you have BB. It's simply not a good splash card. Its power level on the splash is probably comparable to something like a decent removal spell, which is not worth mutilating your deck for.
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No, it is not terrible advice. You do not rate pack rat nearly highly enough.
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Yeah I don't think you should play 4 colors, splashing black only for pack rat, but I would strongly consider playing it if any of my colors felt particularly weak at the point I pick it, and maybe taking black cards to replace that color if they are there. Pack Rat is amazing and can win games on his own.
If I'm in Bant, I consider cutting blue/white if they are weak, and maybe take strong golgari cards like the guildmage etc.
I don't think you want to be in 3 colors with lots of cards from each color anyways, optimally your third color should be for a handful of strong splashable cards that aren't color intensive. If your playing a 7-7-7 split of colored cards, your mana needs to be really good to make that work.
Try to be 2 colors, for instance, I really wish I could have a strong 2 color deck in my last draft, I was forced into playing red cause I drafted awful.
Denied I took those red cards cause they were there, in hindsight I should have been in a red deck not in blue/black, the cards weren't there for me, but of course I can say that about half the drafts I do(should have been in other colors). Limited is my weakest format .
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On June 15 2013 16:20 DEN1ED wrote:
No, it is not terrible advice...
You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD.
My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color.
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On June 15 2013 16:24 Cel.erity wrote:You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD. My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color.
A third of your draft should not be your third color, it should be your splash color.
For instance I shouldn't have 10 red cards, 10 black cards, and 10 white cards at the end of a draft, I hopefully have like 13-12-5(not playing all of these of course, so 4 cards I want to play out of that color). Remember you still have a pack to go at the point you open that pack rat.
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On June 15 2013 16:29 BlueBird. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 16:24 Cel.erity wrote:On June 15 2013 16:20 DEN1ED wrote:
No, it is not terrible advice... You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD. My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color. A third of your draft should not be your third color, it should be your splash color. For instance I shouldn't have 10 red cards, 10 black cards, and 10 white cards at the end of a draft, I hopefully have like 13-12-5(not playing all of these of course, so 4 cards I want to play out of that color). Remember you still have a pack to go at the point you open that pack rat.
I said the exact same thing to him in my original post. Of course, being in solid two colors going into pack 3 in a position to actually splash any bomb you open is preferable. That is the kind of advice which is helpful, but saying "LOL you can't not play this card" is just stupid. No good player would ever say something like that.
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On June 15 2013 16:32 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 16:29 BlueBird. wrote:On June 15 2013 16:24 Cel.erity wrote:On June 15 2013 16:20 DEN1ED wrote:
No, it is not terrible advice... You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD. My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color. A third of your draft should not be your third color, it should be your splash color. For instance I shouldn't have 10 red cards, 10 black cards, and 10 white cards at the end of a draft, I hopefully have like 13-12-5(not playing all of these of course, so 4 cards I want to play out of that color). Remember you still have a pack to go at the point you open that pack rat. I said the exact same thing to him in my original post. Of course, being in solid two colors going into pack 3 in a position to actually splash any bomb you open is preferable. That is the kind of advice which is helpful, but saying "LOL you can't not play this card" is just stupid. No good player would ever say something like that.
Okay I see where you said that now, I missed that I guess.
. I just think you should be trying to fit that card in to your deck, I would always consider it. I normally try not to play a 3rd color, so I mean, I would probably not be taking it, but Pack Rat is probably better than his third color at that point in the draft most of the time.
Never claimed to be a good player  . Especially in limited anyways. My limited accomplishments are non-existent, won a few local drafts/magic online swiss tournaments, yay.
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On June 15 2013 16:32 Cel.erity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 16:29 BlueBird. wrote:On June 15 2013 16:24 Cel.erity wrote:On June 15 2013 16:20 DEN1ED wrote:
No, it is not terrible advice... You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD. My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color. A third of your draft should not be your third color, it should be your splash color. For instance I shouldn't have 10 red cards, 10 black cards, and 10 white cards at the end of a draft, I hopefully have like 13-12-5(not playing all of these of course, so 4 cards I want to play out of that color). Remember you still have a pack to go at the point you open that pack rat. I said the exact same thing to him in my original post. Of course, being in solid two colors going into pack 3 in a position to actually splash any bomb you open is preferable. That is the kind of advice which is helpful, but saying "LOL you can't not play this card" is just stupid. No good player would ever say something like that.
This is hilarious. A very quick search leads me to this section from one of Owen Turtenwalds articles from the Pro Tour last fall.
Anyway, we sit down for the draft, and P1p1 I open Rakdos, Lord of Riots and slam it—awesome card but very color-committing. I second pick something stupid like a Rakdos Shred-Freak, because I really wanted to play a black/red mana base and be able to cast my bomb.
Needless to say, the guy passing to me (by pure coincidence) ended up in Rakdos, so I had to waste picks and audible into a different color combination. I end up in RWU with no good cards at all, and pack three I opened a Pack Rat, which I knew I couldn’t pass. As I laid out my cards after the draft, I could barely get to 22 playables even assuming I would play 18 lands and my deck looked wildly unplayable (which is normal for proper strategy in team drafts).
I ended up deciding to just play the Pack Rat anyways with 3 Swamps because it allowed me to have a nut draw, and it kind of is just a two-card combo: Pack Rat – Swamp – game.
Practically the EXACT same situation. But of course no good player would actually do this right?
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"As I laid out my cards after the draft, I could barely get to 22 playables even assuming I would play 18 lands and my deck looked wildly unplayable"
Doesn't mean if you pick a pack rat you have to play it.
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Not really, I mean it's about playing to win. If his card quality is low, he can try to get lucky with pack rat, if he thinks hes going to lose the majority of his fair games,
That's my take on it though, I can see why others would go the other way
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Didn't someone do the math on mulliganning into Pack Rat? I might be wrong, but IIRC it was slightly over 40% to see Pack Rat. So assuming T2 Pack Rat is unbeatable, then your deck has still under 50% chance to win.
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So yeah, I did the grand melee before GP Houston yesterday. The rules were basically 150 player simultaneous tournament where you can only attack left and have range of influence 1 (you effect only your neighbors). The guy with the T2 Pack Rat eliminated 35 people. The guy with Azor's Elocutors eliminated 12.
I had a really solid 1v1 deck, but it had a bunch of card draw (2x Give//Take and 2 Cluestones), so I killed 2 people with Mirko Vosk then decked myself.
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United States24745 Posts
On June 15 2013 19:31 bobbob wrote:
Didn't someone do the math on mulliganning into Pack Rat? I might be wrong, but IIRC it was slightly over 40% to see Pack Rat. So assuming T2 Pack Rat is unbeatable, then your deck has still under 50% chance to win.
If you have 1 pack rat and 39 swamps (let's say), and you keep mulliganing until you have a pack rat (and resign if it doesn't happen by the time you get to 2 cards), the odds of it not working out are roughly:
33/40 * 34/40 * 35/40 * 36/40 * 37/40 * 38/40 = 1987690320 / 4096000000 = 48.5%
Therefore the odds of getting pack rat and at least one swamp to start with: 51.5%
The odds of you winning: less than 51.5% (the odds of the pack rate getting removed or something, especially in game 2,3 is more significant than the odds of you drawing the pack rat in the nick of time, I think)
Still, pack rat is a great card. However, I don't see it as a great card to splash with say, one stone, as it won't suddenly be really good if you play it on turn 6 or 10. It's great if you are playing black as a color and he comes out early, or you have same way to remove it from your deck manually.
edit: I'm off to a Father's Day sealed deck tourney (6 rtr block or maybe m13 packs each)! Those tourneys I did on MTGO should be good practice. Only one of the people at this private event is familiar with the current block though (the friend I played last night at FNM) so I should be at a pretty strong advantage (despite there not being a draft).
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On June 15 2013 16:49 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 16:32 Cel.erity wrote:On June 15 2013 16:29 BlueBird. wrote:On June 15 2013 16:24 Cel.erity wrote:On June 15 2013 16:20 DEN1ED wrote:
No, it is not terrible advice... You're telling a new player to abandon a third of their draft to play one card, yes, it is absolutely terrible advice. You're going to lose far more games than you win if you develop habits like that. It frustrates me to see some of the things posted in this thread towards new players who are looking to improve, and saying stuff like this is simply detrimental to helping them learn how to draft. Especially when Pack Rat is NOT THAT GOOD. My advice would be directed more at his card evaluation, so that when the situation comes up next time, there won't be any question whether Pack Rat would be better than an entire color. A third of your draft should not be your third color, it should be your splash color. For instance I shouldn't have 10 red cards, 10 black cards, and 10 white cards at the end of a draft, I hopefully have like 13-12-5(not playing all of these of course, so 4 cards I want to play out of that color). Remember you still have a pack to go at the point you open that pack rat. I said the exact same thing to him in my original post. Of course, being in solid two colors going into pack 3 in a position to actually splash any bomb you open is preferable. That is the kind of advice which is helpful, but saying "LOL you can't not play this card" is just stupid. No good player would ever say something like that. This is hilarious. A very quick search leads me to this section from one of Owen Turtenwalds articles from the Pro Tour last fall. Show nested quote +Anyway, we sit down for the draft, and P1p1 I open Rakdos, Lord of Riots and slam it—awesome card but very color-committing. I second pick something stupid like a Rakdos Shred-Freak, because I really wanted to play a black/red mana base and be able to cast my bomb.
Needless to say, the guy passing to me (by pure coincidence) ended up in Rakdos, so I had to waste picks and audible into a different color combination. I end up in RWU with no good cards at all, and pack three I opened a Pack Rat, which I knew I couldn’t pass. As I laid out my cards after the draft, I could barely get to 22 playables even assuming I would play 18 lands and my deck looked wildly unplayable (which is normal for proper strategy in team drafts).
I ended up deciding to just play the Pack Rat anyways with 3 Swamps because it allowed me to have a nut draw, and it kind of is just a two-card combo: Pack Rat – Swamp – game. Practically the EXACT same situation. But of course no good player would actually do this right?
Are you really going to say RtRx3 is the same as DGM?
Pack Rat is good, Pack Rat can also get you killed really easily.
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Hello everyone. Long time bad magic player.
been playing as casual for 5-6 years, but always bad, not having a lot of money to buy cards etc etc. But I really enjoyed watching day[9] play some magic online, and now that I have a extra money I was thinking about playing online.
But here are my question. Should I buy the Magic Planeswalker or the other magic online? Will I have any chance in the Magic Online? Do I have to spend a lot of money buying card etc? I was thinking about buying the Magic Planeswalker 2014 to have some fun in the singleplayer, but if playing Magic Online is cheap and fun I'll give it a try.
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EPT
