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There is problem with crafts.
Perfect RPG: Kill stuff, get items, speng minimal time resupplying; repeat
Game with crafting: Kill stuff, get base items, resupply, spend time on cube recipe and runeword web pages, check achievement cube recipes from web page, do the cube-grinding
The bolded section is the cancer. It is brain crunching, number crunching, cube pressing, not the fun hack-n-slash gameplay. Economically speaking, it increases the non-gameplay opportunity cost of getting a desirable item. When the opportunity cost of non-gameplay time becomes big enough, the player is discouraged from further play and rage quits.
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On August 16 2011 02:08 Klaca wrote:
There is problem with crafts.
Perfect RPG: Kill stuff, get items, speng minimal time resupplying; repeat
Game with crafting: Kill stuff, get base items, resupply, spend time on cube recipe and runeword web pages, check achievement cube recipes from web page, do the cube-grinding
The bolded section is the cancer. It is brain crunching, number crunching, cube pressing, not the fun hack-n-slash gameplay. Economically speaking, it increases the non-gameplay opportunity cost of getting a desirable item. When the opportunity cost of non-gameplay time becomes big enough, the player is discouraged from further play and rage quits.
Very true. I've yet to see a game involving random drop-based crafting that didn't turn into a massive grind for said item, involving an excessive amount of website browsing and mathcrafting. The only fun type of crafting I've seen so far was how BG2 did it. Find components to various items spread across the entire game, and towards the end of the game, if you were meticulous enough, you'd have all of the components to create a death machine.
I'm having a hard time picturing how D3 is going to make crafting any different to how it works in WoW, which ain't fun.
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On August 16 2011 01:28 Klaca wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 00:04 antelope591 wrote:
I dont think runewords were such a bad thing...they made all classes at least fairly viable in all aspects of the game. I had the most fun with d2 back in classic but back then sorcs were the only MF class and Barbs were clearly the best all around class in pve/pvp by a wide margin. I still had a lot of fun after 1.10 playing classes/specs that werent viable before runewords. The thing that really sucked and ruined the game while around were the retarted hacked items like ith weapons. Mf has little to do with classes in pre-expansion classic, as act bosses dont have particularly good drops so no point running them, giving little advantage to sorcs. It is instead the CURRENT state of D2 that gives massive advantages to sorcs, hence all the full tals MF sorc bots doing meph and SU runs 24/7. Also barbs lack AoE damage so while they are high damage they cant quite sweep screens like ce necros, multi amas, hdins. And barbs have pretty much the same weaknesses in pvp as they do in modern d2classic. And remain fragile to IM in CS. Also pretty much every conceivable spec is viable in pre-expansion classic. Why? Because monsters have significantly lower life and resists(endgame monsters ~1000 life, low resists) and builds themselves gain much smaller bonuses of ED and such from skills, making the whole balance scene much more uniform than it ever was later in D2's history. Basically all your points are incorrect. This is important because it shows why the rare-based item system would be good for D3.
All I remember was owning everything with my iceblink/lance barb...I dont remember any other char I had being nearly as strong. Were hammerdins even good back then? Once runewords came out I know I had like every class 80+ and they were all pretty decent. But yea my memory sucks so Im prolly just remembering half the shit wrong lol
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On August 16 2011 02:08 Klaca wrote:
There is problem with crafts.
Perfect RPG: Kill stuff, get items, speng minimal time resupplying; repeat
Game with crafting: Kill stuff, get base items, resupply, spend time on cube recipe and runeword web pages, check achievement cube recipes from web page, do the cube-grinding
The bolded section is the cancer. It is brain crunching, number crunching, cube pressing, not the fun hack-n-slash gameplay. Economically speaking, it increases the non-gameplay opportunity cost of getting a desirable item. When the opportunity cost of non-gameplay time becomes big enough, the player is discouraged from further play and rage quits.
That only happens if only certain mobs drop certain items. If the only thing that matters is the item level of the disassembled piece, it should be no diferent than farming items. You open your recipe list and see you need gold and some high level metal scraps, then you go do Diablo runs to hope for high level items and turn them into scrap. It's not that diferent than doing runs for items in D2.
If what you don't like is the theorycrafting behind where to farm, drop rates, etc, it will happen regardless. Some people like to do that stuff, and it would be the same for regular item drops, just like it happened in D2. Who would say Pindle runs were worth for X kinds of drops without doing all that stuff?
I just don't think we have enough information about the crafting system yet, but as long as it remains simple, I don't see the number crunching to be a problem. I certainly don't see people rage quitting because of a crafting system, I don't think I've ever saw a game that would cause that. WoW, the most hated example for basically everything, works perfectly fine even if you never craft at all.
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On August 16 2011 02:08 Klaca wrote:
There is problem with crafts.
Perfect RPG: Kill stuff, get items, speng minimal time resupplying; repeat
Game with crafting: Kill stuff, get base items, resupply, spend time on cube recipe and runeword web pages, check achievement cube recipes from web page, do the cube-grinding
The bolded section is the cancer. It is brain crunching, number crunching, cube pressing, not the fun hack-n-slash gameplay. Economically speaking, it increases the non-gameplay opportunity cost of getting a desirable item. When the opportunity cost of non-gameplay time becomes big enough, the player is discouraged from further play and rage quits.
Let's not forget that many crafted items work like that McDonald's Monopoly sweepstakes. Many of the components are reasonable to get but there's always that 1 component that's very rare. So crafting is almost like farming for items, except you're carrying more shit in your bags and have to constantly manage your inventory.
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Have you guys taken the time to read about the D3 artisan, salvaging and inventory management systems (or any of the interviews with Jay Wilson where people raise these same concerns...) before coming up with these theories?
The crafting system is designed to *work*.
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On August 16 2011 05:04 Gescom wrote:
Have you guys taken the time to read about the D3 artisan, salvaging and inventory management systems (or any of the interviews with Jay Wilson where people raise these same concerns...) before coming up with these theories?
The crafting system is designed to *work*.
*how*? I have read them. I even went back to the crafting-based chats and discussions with Jay Wilson & co. and I still don't know how the system is supposed to be anything better or different than all of the other random-drop crafting systems we've seen. They seem to spend more time explaining how you use and access the artisans, why you aren't a crafter yourself, why they follow you around, and what it looks like when they 'level up', rather than the actual act of crafting.
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Crafting is new, enhanced, overhauled and upgraded gambling from D2. And I have got to say, it looks pretty good.
I dont know what you dont understand about artisans, Bibdy. It seems pretty simple for me.
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I feel crafting just adds another dimension to the game. If done right, nobody should have to spend time crafting if they don't want to, and the others who like that stuff can.
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My fellow teamliquidians,
I present you the beta release date!
![[image loading]](http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5859/releasedate.png)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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I really cant wait to see what their explanations for the demons coming back after their soulstones were destroyed is going to be. But then again they have had unexpected, barely explained and stupid come backs in WoW. ( Ony, kaelthas, etc).
I also wonder if there is gonna be any guild/clan funcitonality in d3, speaking of wich werent they suposed to add that in sc2?
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Can you guys stop talking about D2 gear and info in this thread, every time this thread hits the top I think theres been an update.
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So i heard beta starts tomorrow, amirite?
I read on reddit about some "hint" on the battle.net website about it starting on the 16th.
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I would greatly welcome that.
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On August 16 2011 02:08 Klaca wrote:
There is problem with crafts.
Perfect RPG: Kill stuff, get items, speng minimal time resupplying; repeat
Game with crafting: Kill stuff, get base items, resupply, spend time on cube recipe and runeword web pages, check achievement cube recipes from web page, do the cube-grinding
The bolded section is the cancer. It is brain crunching, number crunching, cube pressing, not the fun hack-n-slash gameplay. Economically speaking, it increases the non-gameplay opportunity cost of getting a desirable item. When the opportunity cost of non-gameplay time becomes big enough, the player is discouraged from further play and rage quits.
Clearly, you haven't played WoW. That crafting, decomposing and ingredient farming is it's major success.
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I think crafting is gunna be awesome. I am a completionist so I will probably do the mindless grinding for crafting supplies then sell those crafted items on the auction house for big bucks. By that I mean 50 cents a pop.
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I played a Frenzy Barb in D2: a build that absolutely did not work without Life Steal. The problem: given the bazillion different affixes on random magic items, the odds of getting Life Steal in particular on a given drop were ridiculously low, and I could've spent who-knows-how-many hours farming before getting the necessary loot to make my build viable. If it hadn't been for LoD's crafting system, I would probably have quit the game in frustration instead of playing for another two years past the expansion's release.
Time "wasted" on the crafting system beats the living crap out of exponentially more time spent farming for random drops and crossing your fingers for the stuff that actually helps you, imo.
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On August 16 2011 13:04 Snake.69 wrote:
I really cant wait to see what their explanations for the demons coming back after their soulstones were destroyed is going to be. But then again they have had unexpected, barely explained and stupid come backs in WoW. ( Ony, kaelthas, etc).
Kaelthas, Maiev and (especially) Teron Gorefiend were the worst IMO. Though that was WC3/2---> WoW... still they did a great job with some of the alliance heros but totally botched so many... I wouldn't put much faith in their current lore department is all I'm saying.
(That said, WoTLK was fucking brilliant in my opinion. The whole thing was amazing).
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On August 16 2011 13:04 Snake.69 wrote:
I really cant wait to see what their explanations for the demons coming back after their soulstones were destroyed is going to be. But then again they have had unexpected, barely explained and stupid come backs in WoW. ( Ony, kaelthas, etc).
I also wonder if there is gonna be any guild/clan funcitonality in d3, speaking of wich werent they suposed to add that in sc2?
You never know, Metzen has more than once completely gone back and changed large chucks of lore to make things fit in ways that still don't make sense.
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I dont even care about the story. I never read the text in Diablo 2. It's probably one of my personal flaws when it comes to single player games. I just cant sit there, read through dozens of dialogs and feel cool with it. I normally just speed through everything and I miss out. I dont really care how the demons come back. Perhaps the release of D3 will change this mindset of mine and I will get more "into" the story.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/releasedate.png/)
