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On August 29 2010 15:01 SnK-Arcbound wrote:
There are many decisions, but the "right" decision can only be known (for certain) after the fact. A good player consistently makes the "right" (or best) decisions, even though it might not be possible to know what the best decision is. It's usually more obvious that you made a bad decision than what the right decision was. Maybe you should have went for the double kill, that would be obvious if your momentum continues. Maybe you should have saved it for Garen, because 30 minutes into the game a fed garen is rampaging through your team.
Playstyle is the choices, small they are, that culminate over the course of a game to the conclusion. If anything, playstyle hinders you from making the best decision.
in some cases the 'right' decision still cant be known for sure after the fact, because if you had gone with that decision, the whole fight may have played out differently
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On August 29 2010 11:03 BraveGhost wrote:
The heroes that worry me as kog, and the reason I don't think he's anywhere near as good as kayle are the ones that can sneak around and take you out of the fight.with kayle i just cleanse + R and then destroy said person... with kog you need too worry bout Kassadins/Shacos/(Twitch/Eve/Xin to soem extent...people like garen yi, or tyr as well
it's not really the cc that would worry me as kog as you can stay really far back and pick people off with w, it's the bursters that can get up in your face and just 2 shot you
Add Annie to the list. I did a 2v1 lane against Kog/Mundo. They started zoning me fairly well, then our WW came in and ganked him and forced mundo to blue pill. After that, I utterly dominated Kog whenever he left his tower and my stun was up. When I was 8, he was 5.
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It's easy to say there's a "right decision" in M:tG where the other player has little to no options of dealing with you during your turn. It's another thing to say there's a "right decision" in a game where they can react concurrently (or even pre-emptively) to you acting, and where every little detail (like positioning and exact HP/mana count) affects decisions in real time.
Edit:
On August 29 2010 14:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
For example, SHOULD Ashe shoot that ECA cross-map to try and get a double kill or should she save it for the Garen that MIGHT tower dive her in the next minute?
Taking this, as an example. Say you do shoot it. Then Garen kills you. It was a bad decision.
But lets say you hold onto it. Garen doesn't kill you. But you accomplished nothing, because you can't kill Garen even with it.
Lets say you shoot it. You kill someone with it. Garen doesn't kill you. Great decision!
But you shoot it, kill someone, and Garen kills you. I dunno.
You shoot it, miss, Garen kills you, bad decision!
You shoot it, miss, recall, then come back. I dunno.
You shoot it, kill someone, recall, then come back. Good decision!...? I think? Debatable, but whatever.
You shoot it, kill someone, then you outplay Garen and kill him. Incredible! But how does that even HAPPEN?
Can't forget, you don't shoot it, get ganked, die.
Or like, you shoot it, teammate jungler comes in, fails gank.
Or you don't shoot it, jungler comes in to gank, other jungler comes to reinforce, 2v2, you shoot it, kill! or save!
But you shoot it, jungler comes in to gank, other jungler reinforces, oh noes! Or maybe you kill anyways.
Or Ezreal's ult comes in and you die.
etc. etc. etc.
But then we have extra variables. What if you're at 1700 gold and just need a few? Well you don't wanna shoot it, because you just wanna stay alive. or maybe that's a bad idea, because you need to shoot an arrow to help bottom that's being overwhelmed, but you also need to land the shot, because if you miss it's like roflwhoops. But if you delay shooting until like 1850 you might miss a kill opportunity, and you might lose bottom tower because of it. And if you win it might steamroll into a bottom doesn't relinquish the sudden advantage and you own the other team because they're so far ahead. Or maybe you shoot the arrow, it randomly hits the jungler that was about to gank.
Shall we keep going?
And that's with a skill that's incredibly unpredictable because it's heavily skill-based, both for the shooter and the target(s).
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Ahah now we're talking about League of Legends philosophy. I love this thread. <3.
Speaking of decisions, some guy bitched at me to watch the mini map because I got towered dived by 4 people as Singed and they exposed themselves in our jungle to the mini map. Thing is, I saw three of them appear in our jungle as soon as they showed up on the mini map but I stayed around my tower because in my mind I was waiting to go help if we got organized and everybody went into the woods (There was 3 of my team @ mid). It turned out it was the incorrect decision and I got killed because of it. Wrong decision for that particular instance but it could've been the right one for another.
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So I play a lot of blitz but my runes are not very good for him atm. I have flat mana regen glyphs and seals, magic pen runes, ap quints...
i never ever run out of mana in my lane so I want to fix the glyphs and seals, AP doesnt scale terribly well so I want to fix the quints too. What do you guys suggest? Normally as blitz I just grab someone to initiate, tank with all my mana, then have my ult's passive rape along with my ult last second for huge burst.
Basic build is doran shield+health pot opening, then rod of ages, boots of swiftness, tear/lichbane, then mass archangels staffs. They give me ap for having more mana, and the mana makes me even tankier.
runes are 9/0/21 spell pen, max mana, flash mastery, cooldown reduc, movespeed
I have like 80% win/loss on ranked games 14/2 and a KDA of 5.5/3.4/13.2
My question is do I want more magic pen?AP?movespeed?hp?or mana runes/quints/glyphs/seals
Edit: oh and skill is QEQW first 4 then R>Q>W>E
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On August 29 2010 15:11 Southlight wrote:
It's easy to say there's a "right decision" in M:tG where the other player has little to no options of dealing with you during your turn.
Untrue, unless the format is bad or the matchup stupidly uneven.
Edit: Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 14:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
For example, SHOULD Ashe shoot that ECA cross-map to try and get a double kill or should she save it for the Garen that MIGHT tower dive her in the next minute? Taking this, as an example. Say you do shoot it. Then Garen kills you. It was a bad decision.
That's terrible logic... it didn't work out, therefore it was a bad decision? That's the entire significance of hidden information in the first place, it means the optimal play won't always work out.
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Relatively speaking, yes, it's a bad decision because you died. It's very rare that death is ever a good decision. Maybe the right decision would have been to not shoot it, especially if you were close to, for instance, a BF sword. Because if you held it, maybe a jungler would have come, and the right decision would have been to hold.
But that turns up because you held. If you shot, then maybe it was the case of a good play not working out. But it's a win-win either way, and a lose-lose either way, because maybe your jungle gank doesn't pan out. So which is it, shoot or not to shoot? Which is the right answer, pray tell, because they both have potential kill/death/farms.
Edit:
Also, when it's your turn in M:tG, and the only player has 5 cards in their hand, 2 creatures out, 3 untapped mana, and 4 tapped mana, and like 40 cards in their deck and 5 in their graveyard, they're (aside from special abilities or whatnot) going to change those conditions. When it's your turn, you have all the pieces of the puzzle in front of you. Your turn simply becomes a matter of "playing your cards right" so that you navigate potential interrupts and whatnot. Not to mention more often than not these interrupts etc. should not take you by surprise, because you'll have a good idea of what's in their deck (at higher levels of competition). Therefore there is very often a "right" answer, much the same way there's a right answer when you're given a chess riddle.
However, if you were to ask someone, what's the right move in a chess game 5 moves into a game, you'll get a "are you retarded?" look.
Edit2:
For the record, I don't think (obviously) that there's any 100% right decision. There's always a risk-reward in this game, and some decisions that are better than others. Yes, right down to minute details like "damn if I was 1 pixel to the left I woulda survived that fight because I wouldn't have been caught by the stun" or "maybe if I shot one auto-attack at the Singed instead of keeping up with the fight the Singed would have died to the Mushroom, the Ezreal wouldn't have needed to run 2 inches too far back and we might have aced them," etc. etc. There're a lot of "this is probably a better decision" decisions but nothing concrete. And so much of this game is dynamic (it being real-time) that there're layers of tactical and strategic decisions that're right or wrong as well. Maybe in a specific game you don't need Tristana to farm. But maybe if she farmed BR really fast it would have worked better. But then you'd need to find a way to stall until she gets it, then it turns out it was the wrong strategy anyways. Or maybe it was not really wrong, but just needed a different play style (ie turtle, different laning, more map presence at the cost of xp/gold, etc.).
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On August 29 2010 15:17 TheGreenMachine wrote:
So I play a lot of blitz but my runes are not very good for him atm. I have flat mana regen glyphs and seals, magic pen runes, ap quints...
i never ever run out of mana in my lane so I want to fix the glyphs and seals, AP doesnt scale terribly well so I want to fix the quints too. What do you guys suggest? Normally as blitz I just grab someone to initiate, tank with all my mana, then have my ult's passive rape along with my ult last second for huge burst.
Basic build is doran shield+health pot opening, then rod of ages, boots of swiftness, tear/lichbane, then mass archangels staffs. They give me ap for having more mana, and the mana makes me even tankier.
runes are 9/0/21 spell pen, max mana, flash mastery, cooldown reduc, movespeed
I have like 80% win/loss on ranked games 14/2 and a KDA of 5.5/3.4/13.2
My question is do I want more magic pen?AP?movespeed?hp?or mana runes/quints/glyphs/seals
Edit: oh and skill is QEQW first 4 then R>Q>W>E
cdr is absolute sex on blitz, not sure about others. ms quints probably and armor pen/mpen reds. dodge yellows. i think properly played blitzcrank is more of a tanky/cdr build with a sheen, i kinda think ap is iffy on blitzcrank since he dies so god damn fast.
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Whew. Major awesome comeback win.
So the lanes are
Virgozero Pantheon solo top versus Ashe Twitch (I think)
Owatt Fiddle mid versus Janna
Catriaa TF + DaeniusZ Xin bottom versus Zilean Anivia. Maybe anivia was top and someone else was bot.
and me jungling Olaf.
Starts out nice and calm. I get a successful double kill on my first gank on bottom, then a third kill on top. Fiddle dies mid (Janna imba!) and everyone is having a tough time in lanes... which means I have a field day ganking.
Laning ends with the killboard at 9-7ish. I'm 6-2. However, Janna is flattening our towers - she's building DPS, and with 5 kills is able to 1v1 Pantheon and TF.
After a bunch of running around, eventually one of us gets caught out of position and we lose a teamfight and a tower. Sometimes just half a tower. This happens several times, until they take down our inhibitor. At this point, pretty much all their kills are Janna and Ashe.
Everyone buys a thornmail.
We defend our base until inhib respawns - at which point they get baron.
We defend our base until baron wears off, but they eventually wear down a turret. We kill 3 of them and mount a brief counteroffensive that takes out their inhibitor turret.
Suddenly, the combination of taking half damage from all their attacks and not playing stupidly turns everything around. We go on the offensive and in a long protracted fight take almost all of them down. We get inhibitor but are forced back immediately.
Then we start pushing another turret, only to find Twitch backdooring us. We kill I think both nexus turrets as someone goes back and kills Twitch - but just a little too late. We're now even on inhibs and behind in towers and kills. We have managed to remain ahead on dragons, despite them having mapcontrol for 20 minutes at least.
Then Twitch backdoors another inhibitor. How are we getting outbackdoored when we have two global teleports?
Turns out, we outbackdoor them. As I chase Twitch out of our base, Panth and TF ult up to their nexus, drop a ward for Fiddle, and take it down despite janna killing Panth and almost Fiddle.
Then they complain about backdooring.
EDIT: Obligatory brag SS ![[image loading]](http://i34.tinypic.com/xo0e45.jpg)
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On August 29 2010 15:23 shawster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 15:17 TheGreenMachine wrote:
So I play a lot of blitz but my runes are not very good for him atm. I have flat mana regen glyphs and seals, magic pen runes, ap quints...
i never ever run out of mana in my lane so I want to fix the glyphs and seals, AP doesnt scale terribly well so I want to fix the quints too. What do you guys suggest? Normally as blitz I just grab someone to initiate, tank with all my mana, then have my ult's passive rape along with my ult last second for huge burst.
Basic build is doran shield+health pot opening, then rod of ages, boots of swiftness, tear/lichbane, then mass archangels staffs. They give me ap for having more mana, and the mana makes me even tankier.
runes are 9/0/21 spell pen, max mana, flash mastery, cooldown reduc, movespeed
I have like 80% win/loss on ranked games 14/2 and a KDA of 5.5/3.4/13.2
My question is do I want more magic pen?AP?movespeed?hp?or mana runes/quints/glyphs/seals
Edit: oh and skill is QEQW first 4 then R>Q>W>E cdr is absolute sex on blitz, not sure about others. ms quints probably and armor pen/mpen reds. dodge yellows. i think properly played blitzcrank is more of a tanky/cdr build with a sheen, i kinda think ap is iffy on blitzcrank since he dies so god damn fast.
i think CDR sounds great, especially with lich bane and spamming E. I do think the AP/tank build has merit because more mana=more damage and mana=tank too cuz my passive is awesome. I end up having like 3000/4000 hp/mana at the end with like 300 ap. Its a good 600 damage burst with 300 damage every 2.5 sec to random target and super tanky with all the hp/mana. will def do cdr and maybe movespeed quints.
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On August 29 2010 14:58 mrgerry wrote:i miss my 5 mans with burbs and regi  Insulting burbs mistakes never gets old when i was a young LoL whelp grinding low Elo normals (and by "low Elo" i mean "mid-high Elo"), i used to watch you guys on stream and think you were so awesome. then i got to high Elo and realized that Burbs is a baddie haha. there's still a part of my heart reserved in admiration for you old solomid guys.
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On the topic of kogmaw, just had a very good start as jungle Udyr.. were up a ton of kills and towers.. but just can't end it cause of rammus + kog at their tower.. my team makes a ton of poor decisions.. and kog gets an ace. For the rest of the game I die in about 2 seconds with full tank gear including a ton of magic resist to kog .. he really can tear through a tank.. I tried my hardest to get to him and stun him.. and when I got there the rest of my team died to the rest of there team.. Ended up with horrible stats(too horrible too post) and just really didnt feel like i did my job at all during team fights like I normally do(run around and stun and do pheonix damage) because kog was killing me too fast... Ive been having success with that bloodthirster build but I opted for more mresist this game just cause I was dying so fast (there team was ram, kog, kass, vlad, xin)... so anyways, just thought I would throw in some more love for kog :D. He is really damn good right now
I think those double bladrazor effects are really really strong, and I really think he might become the new FOTM champ :O
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hotshot fucking around on his stream, actually pretty funny, haha.
He made a level 9 frozen heart sorc boots rush on baron!
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On August 29 2010 15:38 Iplaythings wrote:
hotshot fucking around on his stream, actually pretty funny, haha.
He made a level 9 frozen heart sorc boots rush on baron!
I hope that last teamfight gets put up on Youtube. I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard.
+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if this will kill me? *silence*
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On August 29 2010 15:23 Southlight wrote:
Relatively speaking, yes, it's a bad decision because you died. It's very rare that death is ever a good decision.
No, it may have been a good decision because there was a very high chance you wouldn't. Unfortunately it didn't work out.
Alternatively, it could work out, but it may have been a bad decision anyway because there was a very high chance you would have died.
Your examples so far have been predicated on the belief you should always count on the most likely possibility occurring.
Edit:
Also, when it's your turn in M:tG, and the only player has 5 cards in their hand, 2 creatures out, 3 untapped mana, and 4 tapped mana, and like 40 cards in their deck and 5 in their graveyard, they're (aside from special abilities or whatnot) going to change those conditions. When it's your turn, you have all the pieces of the puzzle in front of you. Your turn simply becomes a matter of "playing your cards right" so that you navigate potential interrupts and whatnot. Not to mention more often than not these interrupts etc. should not take you by surprise, because you'll have a good idea of what's in their deck (at higher levels of competition). Therefore there is very often a "right" answer, much the same way there's a right answer when you're given a chess riddle.
That's a gross oversimplification, particularly in limited. Otherwise I'm not going to argue except to point out that there hasn't been such a thing as interrupts in mtg since I think 2000? So I don't think you're up to date on how the game is played at friday night magic, let alone high levels.
However, if you were to ask someone, what's the right move in a chess game 5 moves into a game, you'll get a "are you retarded?" look.
Why would that be? Because there so clearly isn't one, or because there so clearly is one?
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On August 29 2010 15:35 redtooth wrote:
when i was a young LoL whelp grinding low Elo normals (and by "low Elo" i mean "mid-high Elo"), i used to watch you guys on stream and think you were so awesome. then i got to high Elo and realized that Burbs is a baddie haha. there's still a part of my heart reserved in admiration for you old solomid guys.
Im dead serious when i say this, Burbs was actually good at LoL when he gave a fuck. But solo q is a joke so we would just mess around and still win.
EDIT: Sadly nowadays 5v5 ranked is easier to troll than solo ranked. No one even notices if ur going troll items or not. I kid you not i went all heart of golds and boots of mobility on olaf and no one said a thing all game........
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
today i got something that never happened before, cleavered some one as mundo then baron finished him off for me and i got the kill rofl...he died at around the lizard on the side baron is, which is kinda far. pretty weird
redtooth was in the game
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On August 29 2010 15:45 mrgerry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 15:35 redtooth wrote:
when i was a young LoL whelp grinding low Elo normals (and by "low Elo" i mean "mid-high Elo"), i used to watch you guys on stream and think you were so awesome. then i got to high Elo and realized that Burbs is a baddie haha. there's still a part of my heart reserved in admiration for you old solomid guys. Im dead serious when i say this, Burbs was actually good at LoL when he gave a fuck. But solo q is a joke so we would just mess around and still win. oh, i also used to think Grackis was good haha. don't know why but in my head (and MANY MANY other people's heads) people streaming = good players. RicerX was my katarina idol, UNVERSABLE was awesome, and you were the ricing Singed. oh the good old days of being bad at this game.
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On August 29 2010 15:21 UniversalSnip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 15:11 Southlight wrote:
It's easy to say there's a "right decision" in M:tG where the other player has little to no options of dealing with you during your turn. Untrue, unless the format is bad or the matchup stupidly uneven. Show nested quote +Edit: On August 29 2010 14:43 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
For example, SHOULD Ashe shoot that ECA cross-map to try and get a double kill or should she save it for the Garen that MIGHT tower dive her in the next minute? Taking this, as an example. Say you do shoot it. Then Garen kills you. It was a bad decision. That's terrible logic... it didn't work out, therefore it was a bad decision? That's the entire significance of hidden information in the first place, it means the optimal play won't always work out.
The point is magic is turn-based and you can't do things WHILE your opponent has priority whereas in the case of league you're both doing things at the same time so there's not ONE right decision because at the same time your opponent is constantly changing what is happening. It's so dynamic that really all of your decision-making comes down to what's known as "playstyle", which is what you were arguing against in the first place.
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EPT
