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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 29 2010 15:43 UniversalSnip wrote: [snip] 1) I gave pretty much every possibility, and then some (like adding jungler interference into the equation). And I challenged you to tell me which of those was the right decision. Because they all were based on the simple decision of whether to pull the trigger or not. It's literally a yes or no question. So tell me. Which is it, yes or no. We can, of course, extrapolate the question to include WHEN you pull the trigger, which adds a whole dimension (literally, time) to the question, but I'm not being that mean. 2) I haven't played Magic since like Urza, so yeah, whatever. 3) According to the hundreds of chess books that have been written since its conception, the answer to your question is very decidedly a "no there is no right answer" and is why chess is still an indeterminate game today. Later on when the pieces have locked in, turn-based limitations kick in for chess, so as the game goes on the amount of choices available to each player becomes highly limited to more "yes or no" answers regarding each move, and there becomes more of the "one right answer and a hundred wrong answers" sort of situation, but fortunately for games like SC/LoL/other real-time games, the limitation of turn-based games does not apply. Edit: The most blunt way of putting this, is that there's a right decision for two players, both of which strictly contradict each other. Given the decision-point of Garen for whether to last-hit or not against Ashe, the right answer would be "don't get hit by Ashe." However the right answer for Ashe is "hit Garen." Only one of these can hold true at any conflicting point. For Garen there's added pressure of "sitting still and being zoned is also not a good answer," so eventually (yes, time, more decision dimensions) there comes times where the point of conflict must arise. How do you deal with Ashe? Well the "right" answer is to not get hit by ECA. By therein lies the paradox, if you can't hit, don't play Ashe. But the right answer for Ashe is to land ECAs. At any given point of ECA-meditated conflict only one of those "decisions" can ever be "right." After all, it either hits or it doesn't. And whichever side the coin lands on, one player made the wrong decision and the other player made the right decision. Of course, there's also the third option (where it doesn't matter because it's a bad shot) but that's a different decision. Edit2: Say you rez. If you fire an arrow at bottom, you might land a hit on someone that can turn the fight around/jam the tables on way/land a chaser kill. If you miss, 20 seconds later you might miss a kill opportunity at top. However if you don't shoot, you may not get the kill opportunity at all if the opponent is playing it "right" and respecting you because of your ult. What's the right decision? | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On August 29 2010 15:46 Brees wrote: that was weird. i couldn't figure it out either. that's why Asier and i asked "baron kill?" in surprise. he was definitely clear of all damage sources (especially baron) but i don't know. i was thinking maybe he phoenix'd the wraiths? also, those were some imba teams, despite all the ego and hating ha. gotta love MM sometimes.today i got something that never happened before, cleavered some one as mundo then baron finished him off for me and i got the kill rofl...he died at around the lizard on the side baron is, which is kinda far. pretty weird redtooth was in the game On August 29 2010 15:53 mrgerry wrote: i used to think grackis was good... No one thought grackis was good ever. He was there so we could listen to his rage and troll him. Unversable was always so bad, just there cause he would listen to calls and play support heroes.  don't know what was wrong with me haha. then i ran into him 1v1 nid vs nid solo top and was 3-0 despite MXP shaco being on the other team and attempting to kill me every 5 seconds. "Ask Unversable" was my favorite sub-forum. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 29 2010 15:54 Southlight wrote: 1) I gave pretty much every possibility, and then some (like adding jungler interference into the equation). And I challenged you to tell me which of those was the right decision. Because they all were based on the simple decision of whether to pull the trigger or not. It's literally a yes or no question. So tell me. Which is it, yes or no. We can, of course, extrapolate the question to include WHEN you pull the trigger, which adds a whole dimension (literally, time) to the question, but I'm not being that mean. Don't be silly. I can't believe you really think giving me an irrelevant multiple choice questionnaire is going to produce a consensus, or even win you the argument. 2) I haven't played Magic since like Urza, so yeah, whatever. legit, I still respect your arguments despite a poor example. 3) According to the hundreds of chess books that have been written since its conception, the answer to your question is very decidedly a "no there is no right answer" and is why chess is still an indeterminate game today. Later on when the pieces have locked in, turn-based limitations kick in for chess, so as the game goes on the amount of choices available to each player becomes highly limited to more "yes or no" answers regarding each move, and there becomes more of the "one right answer and a hundred wrong answers" sort of situation, but fortunately for games like SC/LoL/other real-time games, the limitation of turn-based games does not apply. Five turns in you're committed to your opening. For at least some of the following turns, the right play is going to be known, period. Some of them have not been conclusively decided, but they have almost certainly been narrowed down. EDIT: I'm not suggesting you be 'robotic' and always make a certain play in a certain situation. You have to be playing off your opponent, but that's part of the decision making process. The uncertainty that comes from your opps, luck and the limits of your own skill is part of what you account for in looking for the optimal decision. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
That's why that multiple choice questionnaire is relevant. We are arguing that decisions in LoL are multiple-choice questions of incredible depth of choices, and the choices listed change on a constant basis because as opposed to turn-based systems, real-time systems cause the underlying conditions leading to a decision to change on a moment-to-moment basis. As such, by arguing that there is a "right" choice you're logistically arguing that of a multiple-choice questionnaire there is one good choice. I even boiled down the ECA questions for you: yes or no, regarding to shoot or not to shoot. It's a two-choice question. I listed various possibilities that can result via either option. Edit: To add to that, I'm saying the onus is on you to explain why you would say one of those (yes or no) is the right choice, and how you would come to that decision. Because it's the right choice after all, you'd pick it every single time in that specific situation because it's the right choice, no ifs or buts. Edit: Actually screw that, we're not even arguing it's a MPC because MPC would imply there's a right answer. The only MPC part of this for us is that that's how many options you're given, and you're forced to pick one on the spot. Whether there is or a right answer or not is the question at hand. You're arguing there is. We're arguing there isn't. So explain to me what the right answer is and why it's the right answer (regarding yes or no). You don't even have to answer it directly (because you may not know that specific instance), just explain the underlying basis for why you'd arrive at one answer and why it's the one answer. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
from my last post btw EDIT: I'm not suggesting you be 'robotic' and always make a certain play in a certain situation. You have to be playing off your opponent, but that's part of the decision making process. The uncertainty that comes from your opps, luck and the limits of your own skill is part of what you account for in looking for the optimal decision. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
can i get a high-level player in here (besides phrost, much respect) to tell me that kogmaw is gonna change the shitty metagame right now into more dps-based or some shit? | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On August 29 2010 16:15 gtrsrs wrote: this argument is terrible and off-topic. can i get a high-level player in here (besides phrost, much respect) to tell me that kogmaw is gonna change the shitty metagame right now into more dps-based or some shit? He'll change the metagame as much as another hard, ranged carry with a snare (Kayle). | ||
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rredtooth
5461 Posts
On August 29 2010 16:15 gtrsrs wrote: no he's not. you guys mentioned "peeling" but tanks can get right on top of kogmaw despite all the shit you do. even if he was as good as you guys are making him sound (which he isn't), ranked games just ban kog and you're back to the same old tank-based play. if anything, i think poppy is a better solution to the problem.this argument is terrible and off-topic. can i get a high-level player in here (besides phrost, much respect) to tell me that kogmaw is gonna change the shitty metagame right now into more dps-based or some shit? | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
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Celestial
United States652 Posts
Been loving Urgot though, just wish he had some real form of AoE. Had a game against another Urgot who went Doran's Ring > Amp Tome > All AP and it looked ridiculous but made him hilariously bulky for a half dps, but it's not like he did anything in lategame. It's pretty hard to find relevance for Urgot in the late game, but tanking as him is pretty solid. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On August 29 2010 16:14 UniversalSnip wrote: No, I'm arguing that in game there is one right choice, although it may be difficult or realistically impossible to distinguish. That isn't even remotely close to arguing that in a multiple choice questionnaire which is a silly caricature of a game there's a right choice. from my last post btw That's called playstyle and it's what you were arguing against in the first place. | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
On August 29 2010 16:37 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: That's called playstyle and it's what you were arguing against in the first place. Obviously, I disagree, but I'm pretty sure southlight has decided not to continue this argument so I'm just gonna let it lie instead of junking up the thread by starting another one with you. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
THIS IS APOPPY! I had a poppy going lichbane - RoA - rylaiviable? - zhonya - FoN and totally wrecked their carry while taking next to no damage because of her ulti. her Q hit for an riddicolous amount. one question though, is it just because im bad and low elo that it worked for that guy? or is it actually | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On August 29 2010 15:45 mrgerry wrote: Im dead serious when i say this, Burbs was actually good at LoL when he gave a fuck. But solo q is a joke so we would just mess around and still win. EDIT: Sadly nowadays 5v5 ranked is easier to troll than solo ranked. No one even notices if ur going troll items or not. I kid you not i went all heart of golds and boots of mobility on olaf and no one said a thing all game........ i missed good ol solomid, it was the only lol stream clgaming is like, hey guys im hotshot oh shit these pubs suck lemme call my korean buddies and we'll grind some noobs in ranked 5s (jokes) and it didn't take long for me to realize how bad grackis is LOL, but he's like hilarious bad, not annoying bad actually he's both but more hilarious | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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Yiruru
Canada690 Posts
Edit: Yes 1 MPen = "Reduces" 1 MR. Flat is calculated first, followed by Percent. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
since u didnt see my first post(?) your logic applies to linear statistical variables- whereas every LoL game is different, dynamic. you should know what corners you can cut, and how bad the player is within a few seconds of poking around, your limitations and theirs. dying before teamfights is usually a strong indicator that you have fucked up for example you can either play your statistical route "if i do dragon right now what are the chances that there is a ward" you shouldn't do dragon, ever. 0% of the time(your logic) but in an actual game setting you can look at your opponents reactions to you stepping into gank bottom, or see if they suddenly disappear off the map when you attempt dragon, or any buff for that matter. aka using skill to win games rather than some "optimal" fantasy(my logic) correct me if im wrong from That's terrible logic... it didn't work out, therefore it was a bad decision? That's the entire significance of hidden information in the first place, it means the optimal play won't always work out. pretty much . this ain't poker with EV and percentages making you results oreinted when you win a hand that wasn't favored statistically to win. if you die in LoL, you are a feeder. now, you can say a few things about crit and dodge chance or "luck" factors... | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
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Cirn9
1117 Posts
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