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On August 18 2010 03:08 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:06 gtrsrs wrote:On August 18 2010 02:53 Southlight wrote:
Your post didn't deal with the fact that BR is the best single-item DPS in the game. Which is for the most part an irrefutable fact. it's like, you didn't even read my post either! i JUST refuted it's dps ability. look at the math. 3800 gold for 29-45 damage per hit? come on, southlight, i figured you of all people would see that it's mathematically one of the WORST dps items in the game. and as i said, no one's going to stand toe to toe with someone that has %based damage and lifesteal, that would be RETARDED. i'll let someone else do the math, but i'll put dollars to donuts that black cleaver's -12armor/hit is like at least 10000% more efficient on WW's ult, let alone in a stand toe-to-toe fight Dude, it comes with other stats.
yeah, it does. the +2 armor is REAL NICE. but you have to pay for those stats. any item looks good if you just look at what it gives you. HOLY SHIT GUARDIAN ANGEL GIVES YOU A FREE LIFE SIGN ME UP. yeah but it costs 2600 gold, calm down kiddo. is it worth it? is it worth it compared to a BF sword and a last whisper? i'm not going to do all the math for every item combo, but the answer is no, BR's aren't worth the gold, and *especially* not as a first-rushed item.
On August 18 2010 03:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I feel like in the current metagame Q is a bigger deal than bloodrazors and having a Negatron for the casters is super freaking important. If you can stay in the teamfight with Q and get an ult disable off on their ranged carry/other important person you're great.
i agree completely. people are building tankier. my last game as warwick i built HoG->Razors->sorc boots->rice blade (all for pretty close to the cost of BR's) and had a lot more success than i usually do with WW. i know that build sounds laughable but i'm going to keep trying it and do some math to show why WW is a tanky nuker with a decent stun, not an insta-gibber like people think
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On August 18 2010 03:06 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 02:53 Southlight wrote:
Your post didn't deal with the fact that BR is the best single-item DPS in the game. Which is for the most part an irrefutable fact. it's like, you didn't even read my post either! i JUST refuted it's dps ability. look at the math. 3800 gold for 29-45 damage per hit? come on, southlight, i figured you of all people would see that it's mathematically one of the WORST dps items in the game. and as i said, no one's going to stand toe to toe with someone that has %based damage and lifesteal, that would be RETARDED. i'll let someone else do the math, but i'll put dollars to donuts that black cleaver's -12armor/hit is like at least 10000% more efficient on WW's ult, let alone in a stand toe-to-toe fight
It gives damage and attack speed. Almost no other significant DPS item actually provides attack speed. This is why back in the day I advocated BR on Ashe over IE/LW, because with one item you get damage output while being able to invest more heavily into defenses.
This is particularly of importance in the tank-heavy metagame where everyone spams HP. Yesterday (actually that youtube game I linked) I was demolishing their Twitch until he finished BR, and at that point despite my 200/200 armor/MR he chewed through me with basically nothing but BR because I had so much hp (>3000) that even with the 200MR the BR magic damage was proccing significant damage.
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![[image loading]](http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp132/Gallowmere08/Soloqblues.jpg)
This is a typical solo q game for me. Myself and Schild dual-queue to try to make things just a tiny tiny bit better.
Fiddle dies to ww 4 times while jungling and then threatens to go AFK because of it. We tell him to lane instead, and he just says "fuck that i want my buffs", and keeps on dying to ww. Singlehandedly fed him like 6-7 free kills.
Galio doesn't land an ult once.... and Jax just dies horridly.
Seriously this is like my every single solo q game. I'm raging so hard at matchmaking right now omg. The game before this we had an eve insist on playing FUCKING MID. AND WOULD NOT FUCKING LEAVE MID.
ASDFSDFRRRRRR FUCK
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But Uta, that'd mean that at 3k hp, BR is an amazingly efficient item, what of below that? I don't think he is completely writing off BR, but BR as a first item. Something that scales with the target's HP is kind of powerful by default, but how efficient that is clearly is a factor of the target's HP. Why would it be worth rushing for it first and not after other items that could have greater impact early on?
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On August 18 2010 03:20 Southlight wrote:
It gives damage and attack speed. Almost no other significant DPS item actually provides attack speed. This is why back in the day I advocated BR on Ashe over IE/LW, because with one item you get damage output while being able to invest more heavily into defenses.
This is particularly of importance in the tank-heavy metagame where everyone spams HP. Yesterday (actually that youtube game I linked) I was demolishing their Twitch until he finished BR, and at that point despite my 200/200 armor/MR he chewed through me with basically nothing but BR because I had so much hp (>3000) that even with the 200MR the BR magic damage was proccing significant damage.
on a ranged dps hero BR is great. on xin zhao BR is fucking awesome because he does no damage but needs high attack speed to proc his pop up and cool his abilities down. BR is great on olaf because it keeps him alive infinitely, especially with his passive and ult, and ability to chase.
however, BR is *not* a good *first* item on warwick, who has no innate slowing ability, a 90 second cd stun (which i've shown is not as compatible with BRs as you think), and low movement speed.
i'll mathcraft the beauty that is last whisper + physical damage some other day
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2 BF sword = 100 damage.
Bloodrazer = Hitting a champion with 2000 hp = +80 damage, and all the other stuff it gives you.
Now when you factor in Bloodrazer's on hit being mitigated, you need to factor in the BF swords or other raw damage being mitigated. A lantern build or something is going to be just as mitigated, I'd say its a moot point that the 4% is being reduced.
Another good thing about Bloodrazer is the armor. The secret to playing a good Warwick is that he is very tanky. The thing that makes Warwick good is his innate damage potential, it leaves room to build like a tank. Now some of the time its viable to build differently, and not rush Bloodrazer. Staying at Razor and building as a tank is a good choice in some games, but I'd say as your starting dps item, Bloodrazer is supreme. Items are never streamlined really, there are always variations.
Also you should 100% learn Blood scent if you want to be useful midgame, which you should since he's amazing at that point in the game at ganking.
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On August 18 2010 03:24 Ecael wrote:
But Uta, that'd mean that at 3k hp, BR is an amazingly efficient item, what of below that? I don't think he is completely writing off BR, but BR as a first item. Something that scales with the target's HP is kind of powerful by default, but how efficient that is clearly is a factor of the target's HP. Why would it be worth rushing for it first and not after other items that could have greater impact early on?
On August 18 2010 02:53 Southlight wrote:
Your post didn't deal with the fact that BR is the best single-item DPS in the game. Which is for the most part an irrefutable fact.
Whether it's a good idea to rush a late-game DPS item on Warwick is a different topic altogether and not something I'm going to touch on because I don't play him, although I wholeheartedly advocate adjusting your build order to the game.
On August 18 2010 03:01 Southlight wrote:
Realistically speaking I think going BR because of Baron is a dumb argument because more often than not you're 5vBaron anyways and it's usually coming when the other team can't do anything or is out of position and would struggle to do anything about it. *shrugs*
Hmm?
Edit:
For the love of god people, I have said nothing (along with SpudBoy) but that BR is simply the best single-item DPS in the game. This is pretty much an irrefutable fact.
I have not once said anything advocating rushing it on WW, nor have I said anything about it being any good on WW. I said I don't know, I don't play him.
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On August 18 2010 03:24 Ecael wrote:
But Uta, that'd mean that at 3k hp, BR is an amazingly efficient item, what of below that? I don't think he is completely writing off BR, but BR as a first item. Something that scales with the target's HP is kind of powerful by default, but how efficient that is clearly is a factor of the target's HP. Why would it be worth rushing for it first and not after other items that could have greater impact early on?
also this this this this this
once upon a time i thought Heart of Gold was a terrible item, and you used math to show me why it's extremely efficient, especially the earlier you buy it. now i am using math to show you why the earlier you get BR, the less efficient it is (again, even more so on WW), and maybe WW should focus on more efficient items, and you are writing me off
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Read my posts again please.
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read MY posts again please.
On August 18 2010 02:28 gtrsrs wrote:
i got in a big argument with WRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRA in liquidparty about
WHY MADRED'S BLOODRAZER IS A BAD FIRST ITEM ON WARWICK
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On August 18 2010 03:21 Haemonculus wrote:This is a typical solo q game for me. Myself and Schild dual-queue to try to make things just a tiny tiny bit better. Fiddle dies to ww 4 times while jungling and then threatens to go AFK because of it. We tell him to lane instead, and he just says "fuck that i want my buffs", and keeps on dying to ww. Singlehandedly fed him like 6-7 free kills. Galio doesn't land an ult once.... and Jax just dies horridly. Seriously this is like my every single solo q game. I'm raging so hard at matchmaking right now omg. The game before this we had an eve insist on playing FUCKING MID. AND WOULD NOT FUCKING LEAVE MID. ASDFSDFRRRRRR FUCK
That game looks completely winnable to me. Why is it that you didn't manage to rack up the kills early on?
On August 18 2010 03:30 gtrsrs wrote:read MY posts again please. Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 02:28 gtrsrs wrote:
i got in a big argument with WRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRA in liquidparty about
WHY MADRED'S BLOODRAZER IS A BAD FIRST ITEM ON WARWICK
Know what? If you'll only get one dmg-item and none others, Bloodrazor is the optimal choice. It gives you good DPS and some survivability all in one slot.
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Hahahaha.
WRAWRAWRA's argument (as well as B12ad, whoever that is) was that BR's should 100% of the time (EzPz knocked it down to 90% of the time) Warwick's first item.
vs
I have not once said anything advocating rushing it on WW, nor have I said anything about it being any good on WW. I said I don't know, I don't play him.
Read each others' posts  BR is indeed a ridiculous item when it comes to pure DPS, but guitar's post was originally about the validity of it as the first item before it got spiraled into used at all for WW.
Know what? If you'll only get one dmg-item and none others, Bloodrazor is the optimal choice. It gives you good DPS and some survivability all in one slot.
Except his point was that instead of BR, he'll go something else, then go back to BR?
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On August 18 2010 03:31 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:21 Haemonculus wrote:This is a typical solo q game for me. Myself and Schild dual-queue to try to make things just a tiny tiny bit better. Fiddle dies to ww 4 times while jungling and then threatens to go AFK because of it. We tell him to lane instead, and he just says "fuck that i want my buffs", and keeps on dying to ww. Singlehandedly fed him like 6-7 free kills. Galio doesn't land an ult once.... and Jax just dies horridly. Seriously this is like my every single solo q game. I'm raging so hard at matchmaking right now omg. The game before this we had an eve insist on playing FUCKING MID. AND WOULD NOT FUCKING LEAVE MID. ASDFSDFRRRRRR FUCK That game looks completely winnable to me. Why is it that you didn't manage to rack up the kills early on? Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:30 gtrsrs wrote:read MY posts again please. On August 18 2010 02:28 gtrsrs wrote:
i got in a big argument with WRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRA in liquidparty about
WHY MADRED'S BLOODRAZER IS A BAD FIRST ITEM ON WARWICK
Know what? If you'll only get one dmg-item and none others, Bloodrazor is the optimal choice. It gives you good DPS and some survivability all in one slot.
T_T I tried... Pulled first blood on ashe mid an everything...
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On August 18 2010 03:26 Norp wrote:
Now when you factor in Bloodrazer's on hit being mitigated, you need to factor in the BF swords or other raw damage being mitigated.
i did, and 2 BF swords on a squishy champ at level 6 was a free kill, while a BR at level 6 did less than half of their health
in fact i'd like to point out that while people think "but it gives you AD *and* magic damage!" that's totally a misleading statement, because then you have to factor in 2 resistances. the lower your armor and mres are, the easier it is to get a bigger boost out of them. +48 magic def and +50 armor when you've only got 30 of each gives you like double durability against BRs.
there's a reason you don't see annie building a bloodthirster or fiddle grabbing an infinity edge or olaf building a deathfire grasp. it's inefficient to diversify your damage.
and again, i'm not saying BR is a bad end-game item. it's a bad first item (have fun getting no use out of that 4% health while attacking towers) and a *really* bad first item on warwick, contrary to the belief of 2 of the top players in TL
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On August 18 2010 03:30 gtrsrs wrote:
read MY posts again please.
Sure.
gtrsrs: BR is a bad first item on WW because of <insert mathcraft>
Mog: "absolutely no idea" but people make BR for Baron threat.
mrgerry: people get BR first because it's the best single-item DPS, but I prefer Lantern anyways
gtrsrs: but you're wrong about the damage (except he's not)
southlight: seconds mrgerry's point about BR being the best single-item DPS in the game, mentions he's not gonna get into BR on WW because he doesn't know (and retrospectively, I might add I don't care)
mrgerry: second post about Lantern>BR preference on WW
southlight: chimes on about how BR for Baron is 99% stupid (@Mog's post)
gtrsrs: post about how per hit BR is less effective than other DPS items
southlight: attack speed from BR makes it do more DPS than any other DPS item
gtsrs: qqqqqqqqqqqqq
I don't know why you conveniently skip over the fact that I said I don't know about rushing it and will not ever have a strong opinion on it. Not to mention mrgerry/SpudBoy also mentions not exactly favoring rushing it on WW.
I was simply defending mrgerry's defense of people getting BR for WW because it's the best single-item DPS in the game which, because of its damage and attack speed (for the 3rd time) is an irrefutable fact. You tried to argue that it's not, and I explained why it is. You can bring up LW/DPS all you want but the fact remains, that's two items, not a "single-item" DPS.
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k anyways
i'll take any arguments to my original post now, seeing as southlight and i obviously agree that BR is a good lategame item in the current metagame
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Thanks for understanding o/
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On August 18 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:26 Norp wrote:
Now when you factor in Bloodrazer's on hit being mitigated, you need to factor in the BF swords or other raw damage being mitigated. i did, and 2 BF swords on a squishy champ at level 6 was a free kill, while a BR at level 6 did less than half of their health in fact i'd like to point out that while people think "but it gives you AD *and* magic damage!" that's totally a misleading statement, because then you have to factor in 2 resistances. the lower your armor and mres are, the easier it is to get a bigger boost out of them. +48 magic def and +50 armor when you've only got 30 of each gives you like double durability against BRs. there's a reason you don't see annie building a bloodthirster or fiddle grabbing an infinity edge or olaf building a deathfire grasp. it's inefficient to diversify your damage. and again, i'm not saying BR is a bad end-game item. it's a bad first item (have fun getting no use out of that 4% health while attacking towers) and a *really* bad first item on warwick, contrary to the belief of 2 of the top players in TL
The question is, what are you doing having 2 BF swords at level 6?
I mean, by the time warwick finishes bloodrazor even if he rushes it, he and everyone else is probably above level 10 anyways.
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On August 18 2010 03:41 Southlight wrote:
Thanks for understanding o/
err yeah i just re-read my posts and it looks like i'm advocating BR as a bad item, but bear in mind all my *dps* calculations are in regards to WW's ult, because he has no way to keep hitting people in a non-ult situation. but no i agree, great item on some champs, awful *first* item on WW
\o
The question is, what are you doing having 2 BF swords at level 6?
u srs? the entire point of the 2 BF thing is that they're literally the same cost as BR's... is it troll guitarasaurus day?
edit regarding your edit: feel free to tack on another 200 HP for veigar then and redo the calculations, i'm sure your bonus 8 (not counting resistances) damage is sure going to make up for the BF swords
edit again: and while you're at it, do the black cleaver math too, with each hit of his ult penetrating 12 more armor and tell me if that's efficient too
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On August 18 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:
there's a reason you don't see annie building a bloodthirster or fiddle grabbing an infinity edge or olaf building a deathfire grasp. it's inefficient to diversify your damage.
cool analogy bro
WW is an AS hero, both AD and the Madred's procs synergize with AS. All your examples are retarded because they're not trying to synergize with the character's strengths. Under the context of "I am a fast attacking hero" you do better to diversify your damage with razor than you do stacking AD and getting eaten up by thornmail + sunfire spam crap.
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EPT
