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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:18 Southlight wrote: I run 1/16/13 on Udyr. Imp Smite, -5 Physical, Nimble, 3 Meditate, 2 Utility Couldn't you take 2 out of defense, put 2 into utility, and get the +3% movespeed boost? | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
The only mastery setup I'm sure about is Kassadin, simple /9/21 for SoS >_> Not particularly difficult there hah. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
WHY MADRED'S BLOODRAZER IS A BAD FIRST ITEM ON WARWICK i know southlight is a big mathcrafter so i think he might agree with me once i lay this out. from lol's website: Madred's Bloodrazor 3800 +30 Attack Damage +40% Attack Speed +25 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On hit, deals Magic Damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health. so with BR's, you're spending the equivalent of 2 BF sword's, OR a FoN+MercTreads+NullMantle, OR a LastWhisper+2HoG, OR Atma's+Giant'sBelt+HealthGem OR... the list goes on and on. basically it's a fucking expensive item. now, assuming you *want* the Madred's Razors on a jungling champ, for jungle speed and dragon threat (which i won't argue against), lets take a look at the benefit of the next 3k gold spent towards BR's: 15 Attack Damage 2 Armor 40% ASpd LOSS of the 500 hit chance on minions *4% of the target's maximum health dealt in MAGIC damage* Essentially you're paying 2800 gold for a recurve bow, a long sword, and the passive. So that brings to question the value of the passive - is 4% of health in MAGIC damage worth 1300 gold? I run Magic Resist runes on all champs. I know not everyone does, but I think it's safe to assume that your opponents are going to have at least 30 magic resist and 30 armor, even without them, right? That's 25% reduction right there, and i'd say that's the *minimum* you're going to see. Lets say that when you ult (BR's are custom built for WW's ult!) your target is veigar, a squishy champ. according to lol's website, veigar's got Health 355 (+82 / per level) or 847 HP at level 6 with no HP items. having just completed your BRs, you jump him and ult, striking 5 times for Damage 56.76 (+3.375 / per level) + 30 -25%resistance or 80 Physical PLUS the magic passive of 847*0.04 -25% resistance or 25.4 magic damage per hit! That's 105.4 damage per hit, or 527 damage! From your ult alone, you did just over half of veigar's health! Having thrown yourself into the fray, and not having boots, you're stunned, focused, and killed instantly. now let's give veigar a fighting chance and say that while you were blowing 1050 gold on a recurve bow that doesn't even help with your ult one bit, veigar used that money to buy merc treads. he's now got 50 Mres (33% reduction) as well as 35% reduced stun (read: your ult) time. now i'm not 100% sure how WW's ult reacts with merc treads, i *think* you only get 3 hits off, but you might get 4. i'm just going to give an overall 35% reduction to the damage to be fair to both sides. you foolishly jump in on veigar and do Damage 56.76 (+3.375 / per level) + 30 -25%resistance or 80 Physical PLUS the magic passive of 847*0.04 -33% or 22 magic damage per hit! 5 hits, Reduced 35% because veigar is madly clicking away from you, nets you a whopping 331.5 damage. Again, since you rushed BR's, you've got no escape mechanism, and are gunned down mercilessly. and this is taking into consideration *all* of the damage from BR's, not just what you paid for with the 1300. *just considering the 1300 gold to get the passive*, you added only 125 damage to your ult on bootless veigar, and only 68.25 damage to merc veigar. in a standing fight 1v1 with someone with 1500 hp and base 30 magic res, you add 45 damage per hit in a standing fight 1v1 with someone with 1500 hp and treads, you add 39 damage per hit. in a standing fight 1v1 with a tank with 2200 HP (BR is an anti-hp item! tank is going down!) who, with your 2800 gold spent to complete BR, wisely got treads and 2 negatrons (and a health potion... and a ward), you add 29 damage per hit. ... okay that's a lot of math and a lot of numbers and i got 3 hours of sleep and i'm sure i made an error somewhere that someone (shikyo amirite) will be glad to point out. i'm not saying madred's is a bad item. i'm saying (and getting ridiculed for saying) that madred's is a bad FIRST item ON WARWICK. without showing the math, lets say you bought the 2 BF swords after your madred's razors. you jump a bootless veigar you do 892.5 damage and kill him with just your ult. you do 580 do a merc tread veigar. you do 571.5 to a ninja tabi veigar (god forbid). with the 2800 gold if you buy a HoG and an avarice blade for the gimme-gold, and turn them into an AoE snare and a free Ghost spell later, you've still got enough for your boots2 and wards. and i know BR's give you the threat of baroning, which is huge, but you threaten Baron for 3800 gold. i can counter your baron threat for 5 minutes with 90 gold. gg? and yes, i know, the more HP a champ has, the more damage it's going to do. but you're going to jump their squishy, right? they don't have HP growth. your damage growth potential is small with them. if you jump a smart tank, they've got at least 100 magic resist, they're taking 50% less magic damage at the cost of something like 1950 gold (treads + a negatron + their base mres), HALVING the effectiveness of your BR, for HALF the cost. so yeah, there's my argument why BR's are a bad first item (and a questionable item at all, for the cost) on warwick. WRAWRAWRA's argument (as well as B12ad, whoever that is) was that BR's should 100% of the time (EzPz knocked it down to 90% of the time) Warwick's first item. feel free to continue ridiculing me | ||
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
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cascades
Singapore6122 Posts
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:18 Southlight wrote: I run 1/16/13 on Udyr. Imp Smite, -5 Physical, Nimble, 3 Meditate, 2 Utility I know, but Cho like, never, ever gets low jungling. Ever. And vs a champion that extra 15 hp is more useful than 1 damage mitigation because honestly 15 attacks? lol. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:32 cascades wrote: Now mathcraft attackspeed vs attackdamage someone. i was going to do this, but here's what it boils down to no one wants to fight WW 1v1. he's got passive lifesteal, decent attack speed and damage, and a spammable lifesteal ability. i can't think of 1 champ i'd 1v1 with WW with (with equal gold). so why spend your money on an item that's going to make people want to 1v1 you even LESS? the attack speed is useless because hey, i'm just going to run if i'm a low MRes, high HP, low damage champ. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:28 myopia wrote: Do you think a Jungle Yi should run the typical 1/16/13, or max offensive masteries? aboslutely no idea, but my 2 cents here are that I hate offensive masteries and basically don't think they're worth it on anyone ever, lol. it's a playstyle thing though I guess. the madreds thing is really tl;dr for me right now, I'll check it out post-work. but a huge part of why you get madreds is to have a massive threat of baroning. it also diversifies your damage a bit making it way harder to spec defensively vs. you since you're now outputting considerable magic damage in addition to your physical output. | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
As for any mathcrafters out there you might be interested in this item efficiency spreadsheet http://www.solomid.net/forums/index.php?/topic/1797-item-efficiency-spreadsheet/ There are of course small issues with saying how efficient an item is but I find it to work out well enough to judge what you are getting out of an item based on how much you use the stats given. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:42 Athos wrote: While we're on Warwick questions what do you guys think about taking blood scent? I personally never get it because I think it reveals my presence while ganking too quickly at times, but then again there are times I wish I had that movement speed while ganking. not a pro WW by any means, but i level Q W Q W Q R Q before even thinking about blood scent. much more efficient lategame. if i level up in the middle of a teamfight and someone is running away at low health i'll put a point in it, but other than that it's meh. if it revealed invis units like Strygwyr in dota's does, it'd be a lot better imo. On August 18 2010 02:43 mrgerry wrote: The main reason people go Bloodrazer on WW is cause its the best single item dps in the game. it's like... you didn't even read my post at all! | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Whether it's a good idea to rush a late-game DPS item on Warwick is a different topic altogether and not something I'm going to touch on because I don't play him, although I wholeheartedly advocate adjusting your build order to the game. | ||
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
In shaco's case, I found that grabbing 3 doran's blade is a much stronger followup to madred's razor than trying to go into starks or bloodrazor or GA immediately. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
Meaning: total chance = 1 - (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.15) = 32% | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:53 Southlight wrote: Your post didn't deal with the fact that BR is the best single-item DPS in the game. Which is for the most part an irrefutable fact. it's like, you didn't even read my post either! i JUST refuted it's dps ability. look at the math. 3800 gold for 29-45 damage per hit? come on, southlight, i figured you of all people would see that it's mathematically one of the WORST dps items in the game. and as i said, no one's going to stand toe to toe with someone that has %based damage and lifesteal, that would be RETARDED. i'll let someone else do the math, but i'll put dollars to donuts that black cleaver's -12armor/hit is like at least 10000% more efficient on WW's ult, let alone in a stand toe-to-toe fight | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On August 18 2010 03:06 gtrsrs wrote: it's like, you didn't even read my post either! i JUST refuted it's dps ability. look at the math. 3800 gold for 29-45 damage per hit? come on, southlight, i figured you of all people would see that it's mathematically one of the WORST dps items in the game. and as i said, no one's going to stand toe to toe with someone that has %based damage and lifesteal, that would be RETARDED. i'll let someone else do the math, but i'll put dollars to donuts that black cleaver's -12armor/hit is like at least 10000% more efficient on WW's ult, let alone in a stand toe-to-toe fight Dude, it comes with other stats. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On August 18 2010 02:28 gtrsrs wrote: + Show Spoiler + i got in a big argument with WRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRAWRA in liquidparty about WHY MADRED'S BLOODRAZER IS A BAD FIRST ITEM ON WARWICK i know southlight is a big mathcrafter so i think he might agree with me once i lay this out. from lol's website: Madred's Bloodrazor 3800 +30 Attack Damage +40% Attack Speed +25 Armor UNIQUE Passive: On hit, deals Magic Damage equal to 4% of the target's maximum Health. so with BR's, you're spending the equivalent of 2 BF sword's, OR a FoN+MercTreads+NullMantle, OR a LastWhisper+2HoG, OR Atma's+Giant'sBelt+HealthGem OR... the list goes on and on. basically it's a fucking expensive item. now, assuming you *want* the Madred's Razors on a jungling champ, for jungle speed and dragon threat (which i won't argue against), lets take a look at the benefit of the next 3k gold spent towards BR's: 15 Attack Damage 2 Armor 40% ASpd LOSS of the 500 hit chance on minions *4% of the target's maximum health dealt in MAGIC damage* Essentially you're paying 2800 gold for a recurve bow, a long sword, and the passive. So that brings to question the value of the passive - is 4% of health in MAGIC damage worth 1300 gold? I run Magic Resist runes on all champs. I know not everyone does, but I think it's safe to assume that your opponents are going to have at least 30 magic resist and 30 armor, even without them, right? That's 25% reduction right there, and i'd say that's the *minimum* you're going to see. Lets say that when you ult (BR's are custom built for WW's ult!) your target is veigar, a squishy champ. according to lol's website, veigar's got Health 355 (+82 / per level) or 847 HP at level 6 with no HP items. having just completed your BRs, you jump him and ult, striking 5 times for Damage 56.76 (+3.375 / per level) + 30 -25%resistance or 80 Physical PLUS the magic passive of 847*0.04 -25% resistance or 25.4 magic damage per hit! That's 105.4 damage per hit, or 527 damage! From your ult alone, you did just over half of veigar's health! Having thrown yourself into the fray, and not having boots, you're stunned, focused, and killed instantly. now let's give veigar a fighting chance and say that while you were blowing 1050 gold on a recurve bow that doesn't even help with your ult one bit, veigar used that money to buy merc treads. he's now got 50 Mres (33% reduction) as well as 35% reduced stun (read: your ult) time. now i'm not 100% sure how WW's ult reacts with merc treads, i *think* you only get 3 hits off, but you might get 4. i'm just going to give an overall 35% reduction to the damage to be fair to both sides. you foolishly jump in on veigar and do Damage 56.76 (+3.375 / per level) + 30 -25%resistance or 80 Physical PLUS the magic passive of 847*0.04 -33% or 22 magic damage per hit! 5 hits, Reduced 35% because veigar is madly clicking away from you, nets you a whopping 331.5 damage. Again, since you rushed BR's, you've got no escape mechanism, and are gunned down mercilessly. and this is taking into consideration *all* of the damage from BR's, not just what you paid for with the 1300. *just considering the 1300 gold to get the passive*, you added only 125 damage to your ult on bootless veigar, and only 68.25 damage to merc veigar. in a standing fight 1v1 with someone with 1500 hp and base 30 magic res, you add 45 damage per hit in a standing fight 1v1 with someone with 1500 hp and treads, you add 39 damage per hit. in a standing fight 1v1 with a tank with 2200 HP (BR is an anti-hp item! tank is going down!) who, with your 2800 gold spent to complete BR, wisely got treads and 2 negatrons (and a health potion... and a ward), you add 29 damage per hit. ... okay that's a lot of math and a lot of numbers and i got 3 hours of sleep and i'm sure i made an error somewhere that someone (shikyo amirite) will be glad to point out. i'm not saying madred's is a bad item. i'm saying (and getting ridiculed for saying) that madred's is a bad FIRST item ON WARWICK. without showing the math, lets say you bought the 2 BF swords after your madred's razors. you jump a bootless veigar you do 892.5 damage and kill him with just your ult. you do 580 do a merc tread veigar. you do 571.5 to a ninja tabi veigar (god forbid). with the 2800 gold if you buy a HoG and an avarice blade for the gimme-gold, and turn them into an AoE snare and a free Ghost spell later, you've still got enough for your boots2 and wards. and i know BR's give you the threat of baroning, which is huge, but you threaten Baron for 3800 gold. i can counter your baron threat for 5 minutes with 90 gold. gg? and yes, i know, the more HP a champ has, the more damage it's going to do. but you're going to jump their squishy, right? they don't have HP growth. your damage growth potential is small with them. if you jump a smart tank, they've got at least 100 magic resist, they're taking 50% less magic damage at the cost of something like 1950 gold (treads + a negatron + their base mres), HALVING the effectiveness of your BR, for HALF the cost. so yeah, there's my argument why BR's are a bad first item (and a questionable item at all, for the cost) on warwick. WRAWRAWRA's argument (as well as B12ad, whoever that is) was that BR's should 100% of the time (EzPz knocked it down to 90% of the time) Warwick's first item. feel free to continue ridiculing me I feel like in the current metagame Q is a bigger deal than bloodrazors and having a Negatron for the casters is super freaking important. If you can stay in the teamfight with Q and get an ult disable off on their ranged carry/other important person you're great. | ||
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