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On August 18 2010 03:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:
there's a reason you don't see annie building a bloodthirster or fiddle grabbing an infinity edge or olaf building a deathfire grasp. it's inefficient to diversify your damage. cool analogy bro WW is an AS hero, both AD and the Madred's procs synergize with AS. All your examples are retarded because they're not trying to synergize with the character's strengths. Under the context of "I am a fast attacking hero" you do better to diversify your damage with razor than you do stacking AD and getting eaten up by thornmail + sunfire spam crap.
that's fair
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That's also kinda why you see some WWs get Wit's End after BR.
Let's see, to the best of my knowledge, the reason why WWs rush BR is because if they're good, they'll get it REALLY fast. Like 15-20 minutes fast. And this is especially important when you consider that he should finish BR as fast if not faster than laning tanks finish Sunfire. And during this early-game phase the onus is on WW to output as much damage as possible, because his job is to kill shit, not to tank shit. This is also the time of the game where he's dominating Lizard (over other heroes that may be able to use it better, like Ezreal) so the snare isn't as big of an issue.
Obviously if you're being denied or slowed it'd behoove you to slow down and buy Razor and then some tank items, to build into mid-game, but that's what I meant by advocating adjustment via game flow. Unfortunately 99% of players (if not more) in this game are flowchart players who read a guide or see what some top player does and think it's gospel, rather than think for themselves.
Whether BR is a splendid item to get here is debateable too, but I won't get into that, and I don't think there's a right answer. BR is the best single-item DPS, so it behooves you to, if you get only one, get BR. Its usefulness early compared to other items isn't an issue because you don't really have a choice, except for possibly mrgerry's preference of Lantern. I don't know which is better, nor will I really bother to try to find out what's the most efficient way of going about this because I don't play Warwick, nor do I plan to in any foreseeable future. Someone who plays WW heavily may do the theorycrafting if they want.
This is also why you see some WWs, especially if they're ahead, actually build Wit's End after BR, because WE's proc + attack speed makes them obliterate people, plus it again diversifies his damage and forces people to respond in kind. Wit's End also messes with certain heroes like Sion, Amumu, Kassadin, Anivia etc. you know, those heroes whom are always fighting with their mana pool. It doesn't hurt that it gives MR, so with BR you have decent armor/MR despite getting two offensive items.
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On August 18 2010 03:46 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:
there's a reason you don't see annie building a bloodthirster or fiddle grabbing an infinity edge or olaf building a deathfire grasp. it's inefficient to diversify your damage. cool analogy bro WW is an AS hero, both AD and the Madred's procs synergize with AS. All your examples are retarded because they're not trying to synergize with the character's strengths. Under the context of "I am a fast attacking hero" you do better to diversify your damage with razor than you do stacking AD and getting eaten up by thornmail + sunfire spam crap.
Well, I mean, warwick does have this skill that does 20% of a target's max hp and heal him for that amount so like, staying in the fight while using this and disabling with his ult (which still does good damage with just razors) is actually a really effective way to play him against champions like garen, mordekaiser, morgana, amumu, shen, taric, etc.
Which is like, champs I see at least two or three of every game lol.
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On August 18 2010 03:15 gtrsrs wrote:
i agree completely. people are building tankier. my last game as warwick i built HoG->Razors->sorc boots->rice blade (all for pretty close to the cost of BR's) and had a lot more success than i usually do with WW. i know that build sounds laughable but i'm going to keep trying it and do some math to show why WW is a tanky nuker with a decent stun, not an insta-gibber like people think
I do disagree with opening HoG just because of cost-effectiveness because it's really important as warwick to have first item madreds razors to control buffs/dragon because that 500 proc is super, super important.
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speaking of wits end, how is the mana steal/burn calculated? it says up to 42. does that mean its just 42 until they have less mana? does armor, MR or neither reduce it?
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It's 42 unless they have less mana, AFAIK.
Chogath ripped Smash's Amumu apart with it, it was pretty funny.
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razors are non-negotiable first item, such a huge increase in jungling speed.
and 5HIT, I have no idea why you'd point out tanky teams as a reason to stay on just razors... I mean, yea, you need to be tanky and if you wait until post-GA to finish bloodrazors, that's fine, but ESPECIALLY vs. a team like that, I can't imagine not getting an item that makes you already fast auto-attacks chip away at them for a % of their massive HP.
On August 18 2010 04:20 Southlight wrote:
It's 42 unless they have less mana, AFAIK.
Chogath ripped Smash's Amumu apart with it, it was pretty funny.
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I like wits end because he attacks lightning-fast and having an extra 42 dmg in each of your attacks along with the Bloodrazors means you do a million dps. Then add in that your ulti procs both, and that they round up your resistances nicely(You'll get to around 100/100 with these, which still is okay assuming you're not running into them like a madman), and you have a nice set of items.
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i'm fine with taking razor's as a first item, but southlight i still don't buy your explanation for BRs rushed. you gave a disclaimer though so i'm not going to hate, i'm just going to point out that the math i did shows that if you want to kill stuff *with your ult,* you'll go pure AD to start and jump a squishy, instead of going BR and jumping someone with high HP. and you're right, 99% of players are flowchart players, which is why i'm trying to stir up some rational thought. WRAWRAWRA says 100% of the time BR first, i say lets do some math and see if we can be more efficient 
i'm going to start trying to build MPen WW for shits and giggles, and because i don't think people will know how to react.
Razor's->HoG/boots1->boots1/HoG->Sorc Shoes
i think this can be done pretty easily by level 6/minute 8, maybe even get a lantern or another HoG on top of it depending on ganks.
next 4 items are pickaxe/negatron/blasting wand/recurve bow, shooting for bloodrazors and abyssal scepter by 25minutes. 40 magic pen to make sure bloodrazors does nearly full damage, decent armor hp and mres to make sure i survive my ult while my target doesn't, abyssal scepter aura to help my team's abilities afterwards.
last items would be GA/Wit's End/Cleaver
runes would be mpen/level, armor/level, mres/level, movespeed quints
totally just made that up while i was mowing the lawn, can't wait to try it
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You can only go AD if you're not getting Razor, which gimps your jungling. Either that or you're getting two DPS items before you get any tanking items, which is risky.
Razor severely limits what Warwick can do, it's a matter of when you get which, as far as most people are concerned.
When you have Razor, and you're ganking, it's extremely unlikely you're going to go Razor -> Cleaver -> whatever, especially considering that even a BF sword costs 1850 while a Pickaxe costs half that. Not to mention because of Razor you want attack speed anyways (for faster jungler) which would be Recurve or something, which again has nothing to do with an AD item (except for Last Whisper, but going Razor -> LW is like lol good joke).
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Bloodrazor/Wits end is a pretty semi-tanky build, actually.
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On August 18 2010 05:11 Shikyo wrote:
Bloodrazor/Wits end is a pretty semi-tanky build, actually.
Well yeah, I mentioned as much, hahah. It's surprisingly "okay" but it's definitely still situational. Mad respect to the players that know when it's their chance to bring it out and rock it, though. Takes balls and supreme confidence to run an extra offensive item on WW.
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it takes balls to run wit's end in general. you just know that if you've got that shit after a loss your team will be talking mad shit on you in the end screen, regardless of whether it was the right call or not.
EDIT: sorta like malady
SERIOUSLY MALADY'S PRETTY GOOD
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On August 18 2010 05:13 Mogwai wrote:
it takes balls to run wit's end in general. you just know that if you've got that shit after a loss your team will be talking mad shit on you in the end screen, regardless of whether it was the right call or not.
EDIT: sorta like malady
SERIOUSLY MALADY'S PRETTY GOOD
Bloodrazor/Wits end/Malady is the WW megastomp build for pentas =)
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My personal preference with warwick has been razer - 1 boots - hog - mercs most of the time - then bloodrazer - randuins. I don't see any reason to rush a GA if I'm not tanky either way.
I still haven't used lantern builds on ww extensively but the item itself is super efficient and allows me to transition into tanky items early instead of BR which leaves me vulnerable to focus early with my shitty HP. It just seems better on WW when i can get Starks/Lantern, WitsEnd/Lantern, or even GhostBlade/Lantern to get more cdr for my Q along with Randuins in the same ballpark area that BR costs.
Magic pen can work on warwick but it's only something you can really build after you get your hp item (veil, randuins, mallet usually) and BR. Im a big randuins fanboy cause I love cdr and early hog makes me feel tanky for any early fights. I'd still recommend you stick to attack speed runes and magic resist/lvl.
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lantern is shockingly efficient. core on jungle Panth IMO.
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I'd say lantern is absolutely amazing on Xin Zhao and Shaco as well. Maybe Yi.
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well, problem with it on Xin and Shaco IMO is that they both want bloodrazors. Maybe I'm taking that at face value rather than challenging it, but I do think they both have strong cases for wanting bloodrazors, which makes lantern harder to get behind.
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On WW and Bloodrazor:
gtrsrs isn't arguing that getting a razor's is bad, mostly because it increases jungling speed by so much, so I'll just consider the cost and benefit of upgrading a razor to a bloodrazor.
It's 2800 gold for +15 AD, +40% AS, +2 armor, and the passive. AD, AS, and armor are all obviously useful stats on WW and none of it is wasted, so passive costs you 1226 gold, about 33 AD.
Bloodrazor grants +33 damage per hit when his target has 825 health, and gives +50 damage, equivalent to a BF Sword, when his target has 1250 health. Pretty much every squishy is going to have at least this much health when you get BR.
As for his ultimate, gtrsrs brought up the point that much of Bloodrazor's cost comes from the 40% AS, which doesn't help his ultimate at all, and that's true. So let's compare Bloodrazor's passive alone to 103 AD, valued at 3811 gold against a target with only 825 health. 103 AD adds 169.95 damage, the passive adds 165 damage. That 33 AD from earlier, the amount that costs as much as BR's passive? That's 55 damage added to his ult.
Now, you can say, "BUT COW YOU'RE A NOOB WHERE'S THE MAGIC RESIST NOOBY VON NOOBENSTEIN?!?!"...but this is a non-issue. Magic resist effects the damage on his ult from AD and from Bloodrazor's the exact same way. As for normal attacks, I believe most champions will have more armor than they will mr, so AD is effected even worse when you factor it in. gtrsrs' mathcraft on how badly magic resist ruins his ultimate's damage does not show a problem with BR's cost effectiveness itself, but rather on the cost effectiveness of DPS items when compared to tank items.
Of course, there's actually a pretty good reason why DPS is less cost effective than tank items. The added DPS from items can be focused by all five champions on a team onto one enemy champion, while the added tankiness from items cannot be focused by all five champions on a team onto one allied champion.
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EPT
