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On July 09 2010 03:30 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:06 Southlight wrote:
800 gold is huge, that's almost 1000 gold. That's why no one at higher elos gets Chalice - it's terrible and does nothing except slow you down. Except for doofus cfangnasty who gets it on Nasus and loses like a dumbass.
Edit:
Incidentally, Ashes and Twitches don't get lifesteal at higher levels, too. Well, except for Ashes that build Bloodthirster. It's a bad stat considering their actual damage output, and neither of them are fast enough farmers to make up for the big investment. Still making a case for Taric getting Chalice. Considering even at end-game with multiple items, his ult can still run him OOM fairly quick, he needs an item to bounce back after a push. It also buffs his lower defensive stat (MR) slightly. Chalice/Merc treads is more than enough to defend against non-caster based teams. Otherwise, you'd have to get something like Aegis + MR item and those are a lot more expensive.
Standard Taric build I see involves rushing GA with Treads, then finishing with Aegis.
I mean the big disclaimer I'd have over all my posts is this is assuming full level 30 rune pages with mana regen per level glyphs/seals. If you need the mana and you're low level, you can usually slot in a regen item (Chalice) and get away with it because you're not playing at such a fast pace - I doubt you sit there going "omg they're gonna push at the 17 minute mark what am I gonna do" and all :p
Edit:
Also there're USUALLY better heroes for golem than Taric, hahah. Just sayin' :D
Edit2:
http://www.lolbase.net/us/Utahime
As you can see, the average game length for my games is around 30 minutes. I know I end up getting into arguments with people who say "well my games usually go at least 40 minutes..." and it's like, hi, you're playing a different game than me, because the players at your level just aren't good at knowing when to push, how to close out a game quickly, etc. There's almost never an "endgame with multiple items" for me. I've not been kidding when I said your first item is almost always going to have to cut it. Now factor in buying something that's "just 1000 gold."
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errr, made a big edit while people were on a posting spree:
further analysis goes like this...
essentially a regrowth pendant, a ruby crystal and a vampiric scepter are all base forms of adding survivability and they're all roughly the same price.
ruby crystal: +180 health
regrowth pendant: 15 health/5 seconds
vampiric scepter: 12% of auto-attack damage
for a regrowth pendant to be as useful as a ruby crystal, you need to be capitalizing on the regen for 60 seconds. clearly this makes it better in heavy harassment lanes and worse in teamfights throughout the game.
for a vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a regrowth pendant, you need to be doing ~125 damage in autoattacks every 5 seconds, constantly. if you're focusing on last hitting and not pushing the lane, this will not be the case, if you're teamfighting and attacking as fast as you can, this will be the case. aside from the last hitting issue during laning, also consider that if you ever make a mistake or are just straight up outclassed and get zoned out with a vamp scepter, you're screwed.
for vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a ruby crystal, you need to do 1500 damage via auto-attacks WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY IN NEED OF HEALTH, which, simply put, doesn't happen until late game unless you're beefy enough to last a long enough time in fights to just merrily chop away at people for 20 seconds (sion maybe?). this can obviously be efficient while jungling, but again, if you're concerned about your survivability during teamfights, lifesteal probably isn't the answer to your problem.
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On July 09 2010 03:32 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:30 deth2munkies wrote:On July 09 2010 03:06 Southlight wrote:
800 gold is huge, that's almost 1000 gold. That's why no one at higher elos gets Chalice - it's terrible and does nothing except slow you down. Except for doofus cfangnasty who gets it on Nasus and loses like a dumbass.
Edit:
Incidentally, Ashes and Twitches don't get lifesteal at higher levels, too. Well, except for Ashes that build Bloodthirster. It's a bad stat considering their actual damage output, and neither of them are fast enough farmers to make up for the big investment. Still making a case for Taric getting Chalice. Considering even at end-game with multiple items, his ult can still run him OOM fairly quick, he needs an item to bounce back after a push. It also buffs his lower defensive stat (MR) slightly. Chalice/Merc treads is more than enough to defend against non-caster based teams. Otherwise, you'd have to get something like Aegis + MR item and those are a lot more expensive. Standard Taric build I see involves rushing GA with Treads, then finishing with Aegis. I mean the big disclaimer I'd have over all my posts is this is assuming full level 30 rune pages with mana regen per level glyphs/seals. If you need the mana and you're low level, you can usually slot in a regen item (Chalice) and get away with it because you're not playing at such a fast pace - I doubt you sit there going "omg they're gonna push at the 17 minute mark what am I gonna do" and all :p Edit: Also there're USUALLY better heroes for golem than Taric, hahah. Just sayin' :D
Lol, i suppose, but there are also 2 golems 
in any case, i suppose a chalice on taric wouldnt make me go 'omg supernoob ur delaying ur build' since taric is one of those heroes that is prty damn useful regardless of farm and doesn't really need to rush high-priced items.
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On July 09 2010 03:21 Mogwai wrote:
see it's not really utility though... it's survivability. it makes the assumptions that:
a) you're getting hit enough that you need something to bolster your survivability
b) that you're still autoattacking enough for the lifesteal to have been an efficient investment in survivability
c) that you would still be getting autoattacked if you hadn't invested that 800 gold in something to bolster your damage output (instead of you know, actually killing them).
in the case of twitch, these things just don't happen... if they do manage to start hitting you enough that it's scary, you're probably already dead. if they're not, investing 800 gold in something that increases your damage output is favorable because you don't need the lifesteal anyway.
EDIT: further analysis goes like this...
essentially a regrowth pendant, a ruby crystal and a vampiric scepter are all base forms of adding survivability and they're all roughly the same price.
ruby crystal: +180 health
regrowth pendant: 15 health/5 seconds
vampiric scepter: 12% of auto-attack damage
for a regrowth pendant to be as useful as a ruby crystal, you need to be capitalizing on the regen for 60 seconds. clearly this makes it better in heavy harassment lanes and worse in teamfights throughout the game.
for a vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a regrowth pendant, you need to be doing ~125 damage in autoattacks every 5 seconds, constantly. if you're focusing on last hitting and not pushing the lane, this will not be the case, if you're teamfighting and attacking as fast as you can, this will be the case. aside from the last hitting issue during laning, also consider that if you ever make a mistake or are just straight up outclassed and get zoned out with a vamp scepter, you're screwed.
for vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a ruby crystal, you need to do 1500 damage via auto-attacks WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY IN NEED OF HEALTH, which simply put doesn't happen until late game unless you're beefy enough to last a long enough time in fights to just merrily chop away at people for 20 seconds (sion maybe?).
Ruby crystal is only useful with max health. It doesn't happen if you sometimes clear the jungle -> void. Emblem gives both hp regen(as an aura) and lifesteal(17% not 12%). Scepter itself is bad.
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Is AP Kat better or is AD Kat better? I read all the guides on LoL forums but they're all outdated...
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especially when you don't need any items and have limited income, I can't imagine putting 890 aside on an item that's barely more than the sum of it's two underwhelming parts -_-'
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On July 09 2010 03:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Is AP Kat better or is AD Kat better? I read all the guides on LoL forums but they're all outdated...
See first post of this thread.
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AP kat has higher burst damage and a slow on BB and lotus and you have a lot more health then ad kat
buying AP items is also cheaper then AD items
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My biggest problem with lifesteal is that it's base assumption for being helpful is that you are taking damage in a fairly constant stream and dealing damage at a similar speed. When you take cc and burst damage into account (i guarantee you that most teams will have both), then it really effs up this sort of system. As such, lifesteal is fantastic against creeps (but then again everything is), and is the main reason heroes like warwick fiddle and olaf are so great in the jungles. On the other hand, twitch will get nearly all skills used on him when he appears (kus he twitch) which translates to a rather sudden amount of cc and burst dmg which your lifesteal cannot make up for in a similarly burst-y time frame. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, lifesteal really needs a decent hp pool for it to actually be effective due to the cc and burst you will sustain. You need to have enough hp left that ur not in dangerzone the instant some1 spams their shit at you. Thus, lifesteal (that is not bloodthirsters, kus most ppl just get it for dmg) is only viable (imho) on heroes that do a significant amount of dmg on autoattack AND have a decent hppool. Interestingly enough, my 2 biggest candidates for this are ww and nasus, both of whom have innate lifesteal (im sure there are others but i feel that these are the big 2, also nasus's lifesteal is so good i wouldnt get lifesteal items on him either).
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On July 09 2010 03:41 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:21 Mogwai wrote:
see it's not really utility though... it's survivability. it makes the assumptions that:
a) you're getting hit enough that you need something to bolster your survivability
b) that you're still autoattacking enough for the lifesteal to have been an efficient investment in survivability
c) that you would still be getting autoattacked if you hadn't invested that 800 gold in something to bolster your damage output (instead of you know, actually killing them).
in the case of twitch, these things just don't happen... if they do manage to start hitting you enough that it's scary, you're probably already dead. if they're not, investing 800 gold in something that increases your damage output is favorable because you don't need the lifesteal anyway.
EDIT: further analysis goes like this...
essentially a regrowth pendant, a ruby crystal and a vampiric scepter are all base forms of adding survivability and they're all roughly the same price.
ruby crystal: +180 health
regrowth pendant: 15 health/5 seconds
vampiric scepter: 12% of auto-attack damage
for a regrowth pendant to be as useful as a ruby crystal, you need to be capitalizing on the regen for 60 seconds. clearly this makes it better in heavy harassment lanes and worse in teamfights throughout the game.
for a vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a regrowth pendant, you need to be doing ~125 damage in autoattacks every 5 seconds, constantly. if you're focusing on last hitting and not pushing the lane, this will not be the case, if you're teamfighting and attacking as fast as you can, this will be the case. aside from the last hitting issue during laning, also consider that if you ever make a mistake or are just straight up outclassed and get zoned out with a vamp scepter, you're screwed.
for vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a ruby crystal, you need to do 1500 damage via auto-attacks WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY IN NEED OF HEALTH, which simply put doesn't happen until late game unless you're beefy enough to last a long enough time in fights to just merrily chop away at people for 20 seconds (sion maybe?). Ruby crystal is only useful with max health. It doesn't happen if you sometimes clear the jungle -> void. Emblem gives both hp regen(as an aura) and lifesteal(17% not 12%). Scepter itself is bad.
i dont see how investing more into the item is making it better. at least with the vamp you can build it into a bthrister later.(still not saying vamp scepter is a good choice).
you still need to be constantly attacking for an extended period of time to make lifesteal barely worth it.
and regens utility drops off alot as the game goes on
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On July 09 2010 03:43 Mogwai wrote:
especially when you don't need any items and have limited income, I can't imagine putting 890 aside on an item that's barely more than the sum of it's two underwhelming parts -_-'
It's 800, it's 17% lifesteal not 12%, ruby crystal only matters if you're at full hp(which you won't be without regen or lifesteal if you clear the jungle like I said I do), and emblem also gives 10 hp5 as an aura(aka utility)
at above: dps carries do attack repeatedly o_O Sheesh, of course with Soraka you wouldn't get it~
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On July 09 2010 03:41 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:21 Mogwai wrote:
see it's not really utility though... it's survivability. it makes the assumptions that:
a) you're getting hit enough that you need something to bolster your survivability
b) that you're still autoattacking enough for the lifesteal to have been an efficient investment in survivability
c) that you would still be getting autoattacked if you hadn't invested that 800 gold in something to bolster your damage output (instead of you know, actually killing them).
in the case of twitch, these things just don't happen... if they do manage to start hitting you enough that it's scary, you're probably already dead. if they're not, investing 800 gold in something that increases your damage output is favorable because you don't need the lifesteal anyway.
EDIT: further analysis goes like this...
essentially a regrowth pendant, a ruby crystal and a vampiric scepter are all base forms of adding survivability and they're all roughly the same price.
ruby crystal: +180 health
regrowth pendant: 15 health/5 seconds
vampiric scepter: 12% of auto-attack damage
for a regrowth pendant to be as useful as a ruby crystal, you need to be capitalizing on the regen for 60 seconds. clearly this makes it better in heavy harassment lanes and worse in teamfights throughout the game.
for a vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a regrowth pendant, you need to be doing ~125 damage in autoattacks every 5 seconds, constantly. if you're focusing on last hitting and not pushing the lane, this will not be the case, if you're teamfighting and attacking as fast as you can, this will be the case. aside from the last hitting issue during laning, also consider that if you ever make a mistake or are just straight up outclassed and get zoned out with a vamp scepter, you're screwed.
for vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a ruby crystal, you need to do 1500 damage via auto-attacks WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY IN NEED OF HEALTH, which simply put doesn't happen until late game unless you're beefy enough to last a long enough time in fights to just merrily chop away at people for 20 seconds (sion maybe?). Ruby crystal is only useful with max health. It doesn't happen if you sometimes clear the jungle -> void. Emblem gives both hp regen(as an aura) and lifesteal(17% not 12%). Scepter itself is bad.
emblem is barely better than scepter, and either way you're devoting a solid chunk of change under the assumption that lifesteal/regen is going to in someway net you enough extra survivability to account for the money that you could've spent on more traditional ways of making yourself useful (damage, attack speed, crit chance).
On July 09 2010 03:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Is AP Kat better or is AD Kat better? I read all the guides on LoL forums but they're all outdated...
they're both good. I personally think AD kat is better by a small margin, but I see a lot of successful Kats from both schools of thought.
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On July 09 2010 03:54 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:43 Mogwai wrote:
especially when you don't need any items and have limited income, I can't imagine putting 890 aside on an item that's barely more than the sum of it's two underwhelming parts -_-' It's 800, it's 17% lifesteal not 12%, ruby crystal only matters if you're at full hp(which you won't be without regen or lifesteal if you clear the jungle like I said I do), and emblem also gives 10 hp5 as an aura(aka utility) at above: dps carries do attack repeatedly o_O Sheesh, of course with Soraka you wouldn't get it~
that quote was about the Taric and chalice discussion, sorry, simultaneous conversations are getting hard to follow XD.
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On July 09 2010 03:55 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:41 Shikyo wrote:On July 09 2010 03:21 Mogwai wrote:
see it's not really utility though... it's survivability. it makes the assumptions that:
a) you're getting hit enough that you need something to bolster your survivability
b) that you're still autoattacking enough for the lifesteal to have been an efficient investment in survivability
c) that you would still be getting autoattacked if you hadn't invested that 800 gold in something to bolster your damage output (instead of you know, actually killing them).
in the case of twitch, these things just don't happen... if they do manage to start hitting you enough that it's scary, you're probably already dead. if they're not, investing 800 gold in something that increases your damage output is favorable because you don't need the lifesteal anyway.
EDIT: further analysis goes like this...
essentially a regrowth pendant, a ruby crystal and a vampiric scepter are all base forms of adding survivability and they're all roughly the same price.
ruby crystal: +180 health
regrowth pendant: 15 health/5 seconds
vampiric scepter: 12% of auto-attack damage
for a regrowth pendant to be as useful as a ruby crystal, you need to be capitalizing on the regen for 60 seconds. clearly this makes it better in heavy harassment lanes and worse in teamfights throughout the game.
for a vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a regrowth pendant, you need to be doing ~125 damage in autoattacks every 5 seconds, constantly. if you're focusing on last hitting and not pushing the lane, this will not be the case, if you're teamfighting and attacking as fast as you can, this will be the case. aside from the last hitting issue during laning, also consider that if you ever make a mistake or are just straight up outclassed and get zoned out with a vamp scepter, you're screwed.
for vampiric scepter to be as efficient as a ruby crystal, you need to do 1500 damage via auto-attacks WHILE YOU ARE ALREADY IN NEED OF HEALTH, which simply put doesn't happen until late game unless you're beefy enough to last a long enough time in fights to just merrily chop away at people for 20 seconds (sion maybe?). Ruby crystal is only useful with max health. It doesn't happen if you sometimes clear the jungle -> void. Emblem gives both hp regen(as an aura) and lifesteal(17% not 12%). Scepter itself is bad. emblem is barely better than scepter, and either way you're devoting a solid chunk of change under the assumption that lifesteal/regen is going to in someway net you enough extra survivability to account for the money that you could've spent on more traditional ways of making yourself useful (damage, attack speed, crit chance). Show nested quote +On July 09 2010 03:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Is AP Kat better or is AD Kat better? I read all the guides on LoL forums but they're all outdated... they're both good. I personally think AD kat is better by a small margin, but I see a lot of successful Kats from both schools of thought.
i think it was you but someone made a point while back about survivability vs staying power that is quite apt in this situation.
and to that "at above". i realize you are DPS you will be attacking alot. but for survivability in teamfights its the attacking for an extended period of time that is important(the reason why its bolded). team fights happen very fast and especially fast if you are the DPS carry since they will be focusing your ass down.
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On July 09 2010 03:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Is AP Kat better or is AD Kat better? I read all the guides on LoL forums but they're all outdated...
either is viable, i prefer AD just kus i like doing shittons of dmg and i'm a killwhore. It more depends on what ur team needs. If ur pretty much the only source of significant dmg then ur gonna want AD, AP gives you more survivability and allows you to actually stay in teamfights for a decent amount of time.
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sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fine
E: Lifesteal isn't exactly for teamfights, it's for being able to jungle and do whatever and stay at full hp. Your nice dmg items don't help much if you're at 30% hp when a fight starts, now do they?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
AP kat is better for snowballing since you get a huge single target burst ( highly recommend mejai's/GA if you go AP)
AD kat provides a consistant long range poke thats AOE, reduces healing, and scales really well.
personally I feel AD kat fits better into the current metagame.
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yo we should have a tourney this weekend (with faux-draft mode via vent/chat) before season 1
8 teams 3 rounds or something like that
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On July 09 2010 04:02 Shikyo wrote:
sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh fine
E: Lifesteal isn't exactly for teamfights, it's for being able to jungle and do whatever and stay at full hp. Your nice dmg items don't help much if you're at 30% hp when a fight starts, now do they?
And being at 100% hp with no damage items is useless too. Might as well get damage items, then come into a teamfight with 100% hp by playing smarter.
On July 09 2010 04:08 gtrsrs wrote:
yo we should have a tourney this weekend (with faux-draft mode via vent/chat) before season 1
8 teams 3 rounds or something like that
Uff, I'm pretty on-and-off on weekends, so I'm not really too high on organizing something I might not be there for :x
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what is the best way to build trist (AD ofcourse)
i've been using:
doran shield
boots
last whisper
boots 2 (mostly merc)
infinity edge
any opinions?
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EPT
