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On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo.
Because at level 2 being able to land a stun and/or threaten with a Q-W wears on Ashe. Not being able to threaten with range means Ashe stomps all over your face and does whatever she pleases.
Volley has like a 20 second cooldown at level 1, by the way. Scales something like 20/16/12/8/4, it takes a while for it to be a serious threat. You're mostly afraid of her auto-attack and her attrition - which is why I favor the Fort+5xpot build.
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On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right?
Maybe you just suck at his skill shot then lol. The range and speed of his shuriken should be enough to manage to hit Ashe without eating a volley and you're shuriken comes up a whole lot faster than volley early game.
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On July 01 2010 00:25 Mogwai wrote:
well like... I used to run heavy offensive masteries on Pantheon because my working assumption was that my early laning power came from hitting really hard, so let's amplify that so that they're REALLY scared of me. The thing is that offensive masteries taper out in early usefulness REALLY REALLY quickly. Took me awhile, but I eventually begrudgingly accepted that Phreak had at least gotten that part of his Pantheon spotlight correct, because if nothing else, you eat a lot of creep aggro trying to harass and combo during laning, and trivializing this damage is way better than outputting an extra 20 damage with your combo.
If you show up for a ditto mid, I don't care who the champion is, if all other things are equal between a 21/0/9 and a 0/21/9 mastery setup, the defensively specced one is going to win. Defense > Offense early (see doran's shield vs. doran's blade) and I'm very strongly of the opinion that masteries are meant to suppliment 2 things:
1) summoner spells
2) early game
and unless you're crit based or getting improved rally, I can't justify more than 9 in offensive masteries ever.
I get the 21 point offense mastery on Ashe. Between Cleanse, Ghost, her snares and long attack range, I figure I'd rather be 5% more effective all the time than be 5% more durable, because in the rare occasions where I'm under serious focus fire I explode anyway :p
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I'm sorry but are all fucking Pantheons the biggest fucking scrubs ever? I've never played with a good one, and my last game is a perfect example. He tries to fucking tower dive Anivia when she's at full HP at LEVEL 1 then of course dies. He comes back when she's like, level 4 or something and he's still level 1 and tries to tower dive her again, he brings her down to half HP and she eggs and he just sits there attacking her like an idiot as he dies. Then he comes back and SOMEHOW manages to die to minions.
I mean, are you fucking serious?
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On July 01 2010 00:45 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:25 Mogwai wrote:
well like... I used to run heavy offensive masteries on Pantheon because my working assumption was that my early laning power came from hitting really hard, so let's amplify that so that they're REALLY scared of me. The thing is that offensive masteries taper out in early usefulness REALLY REALLY quickly. Took me awhile, but I eventually begrudgingly accepted that Phreak had at least gotten that part of his Pantheon spotlight correct, because if nothing else, you eat a lot of creep aggro trying to harass and combo during laning, and trivializing this damage is way better than outputting an extra 20 damage with your combo.
If you show up for a ditto mid, I don't care who the champion is, if all other things are equal between a 21/0/9 and a 0/21/9 mastery setup, the defensively specced one is going to win. Defense > Offense early (see doran's shield vs. doran's blade) and I'm very strongly of the opinion that masteries are meant to suppliment 2 things:
1) summoner spells
2) early game
and unless you're crit based or getting improved rally, I can't justify more than 9 in offensive masteries ever. I get the 21 point offense mastery on Ashe. Between Cleanse, Ghost, her snares and long attack range, I figure I'd rather be 5% more effective all the time than be 5% more durable, because in the rare occasions where I'm under serious focus fire I explode anyway :p
For the same reasons as Mog pointed out, I much prefer X/21/X on Ashe because you soak up a lot of creep hits attacking them.
On July 01 2010 00:45 Fruscainte wrote:
I'm sorry but are all fucking Pantheons the biggest fucking scrubs ever? I've never played with a good one, and my last game is a perfect example. He tries to fucking tower dive Anivia when she's at full HP at LEVEL 1 then of course dies. He comes back when she's like, level 4 or something and he's still level 1 and tries to tower dive her again, he brings her down to half HP and she eggs and he just sits there attacking her like an idiot as he dies. Then he comes back and SOMEHOW manages to die to minions.
I mean, are you fucking serious?
Yeah, I mean look at this scrub named SmashGizmo 
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Scrubs in my games like to play Anivia
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The problem with Kennen's Shuriken is that it never hits. I think I've only gotten hit by it like, 5 times total in a whole laning phase, most of which during the time I'm stunned. It's extremely easy to just stay behind minions or even move away.
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On July 01 2010 00:47 myopia wrote:Scrubs in my games like to play Anivia
I've only seen good Anivia's.
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On July 01 2010 00:44 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? Maybe you just suck at his skill shot then lol. The range and speed of his shuriken should be enough to manage to hit Ashe without eating a volley and you're shuriken comes up a whole lot faster than volley early game.
From utahime's scenario, I have to hit the shuriken to even ATTEMPT to get into exp range. Ashe can just focus entirely on dodging my shuriken, and punish me with volley every few misses.
You think those things are easy to hit at max range? Right. The hit box is TINY.
In all cases, Shuriken lets you reliably apply 1 mark of the storm IF YOU HIT (and then they can just back off). Remember, max shuriken range >> max W range. You have NO way of following the shuriken hit against anyone remotely intelligent.
Getting energy ball to close to gap to autoattack range lets you reliably apply TWO mark of the storms. You don't need to hit with the energy ball to realize THIS IS MUCH BETTER.
i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right?
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If you're going to use W's autoattack proc to hold on at level 1 (remember, I'm not advocating Shuriken level 1, I've not played Kennen in-depth enough to argue about that), then I'm saying you need Shuriken to follow-up at level 2. That way you get the autoattack proc (1), active W (2), then Shuriken (3). Whether you can land it or not isn't important, it's that you threaten with the ability to do so. The ability to land it is obviously a plus, as it forces them to respect you even more. Without Shuriken, I will stomp all over your face and not respect you. And if I notice you can't aim it, then I'll not respect you anyways, but therein lies the point of playing a skillshot champion.
Taking Lightning, which is by all accounts a useless skill in this particular instance, is mindbogglingly nonsensical.
Edit:
Yup. That's me.
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On July 01 2010 00:53 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:44 Scorcher2k wrote:On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? Maybe you just suck at his skill shot then lol. The range and speed of his shuriken should be enough to manage to hit Ashe without eating a volley and you're shuriken comes up a whole lot faster than volley early game. From utahime's scenario, I have to hit the shuriken to even ATTEMPT to get into exp range. Ashe can just focus entirely on dodging my shuriken, and punish me with volley every few misses. You think those things are easy to hit at max range? Right. The hit box is TINY. In all cases, Shuriken lets you reliably apply 1 mark of the storm IF YOU HIT (and then they can just back off). Remember, max shuriken range >> max W range. You have NO way of following the shuriken hit against anyone remotely intelligent. Getting energy ball to close to gap to autoattack range lets you reliably apply TWO mark of the storms. You don't need to hit with the energy ball to realize THIS IS MUCH BETTER. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right?
What is Utahime?..
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On July 01 2010 00:57 Scorcher2k wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:53 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:44 Scorcher2k wrote:On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? Maybe you just suck at his skill shot then lol. The range and speed of his shuriken should be enough to manage to hit Ashe without eating a volley and you're shuriken comes up a whole lot faster than volley early game. From utahime's scenario, I have to hit the shuriken to even ATTEMPT to get into exp range. Ashe can just focus entirely on dodging my shuriken, and punish me with volley every few misses. You think those things are easy to hit at max range? Right. The hit box is TINY. In all cases, Shuriken lets you reliably apply 1 mark of the storm IF YOU HIT (and then they can just back off). Remember, max shuriken range >> max W range. You have NO way of following the shuriken hit against anyone remotely intelligent. Getting energy ball to close to gap to autoattack range lets you reliably apply TWO mark of the storms. You don't need to hit with the energy ball to realize THIS IS MUCH BETTER. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? What is Utahime?..
Southlight's Summoner name in LoL.
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Also, you don't need to follow-up the Shuriken mark. The whole point is you have a free harassment skill with great range. It's similar to Kat. She'll BB you. By no means is there any compulsion for her to close the distance and Shunpo/ult you after she BBs. She'll just wait until the next time it cools off. What's the point you might ask? Well ask the 100 HP she just carved off with BB.
Edit:
Also, just pointing out that I'm not downing Kennen's laning power, by any means. I agree wholeheartedly that he's one of the best laners in the game at the moment.
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On July 01 2010 00:59 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:57 Scorcher2k wrote:On July 01 2010 00:53 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:44 Scorcher2k wrote:On July 01 2010 00:39 Juicyfruit wrote:On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it." While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position. SHURIKEN SUCKS. To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? Maybe you just suck at his skill shot then lol. The range and speed of his shuriken should be enough to manage to hit Ashe without eating a volley and you're shuriken comes up a whole lot faster than volley early game. From utahime's scenario, I have to hit the shuriken to even ATTEMPT to get into exp range. Ashe can just focus entirely on dodging my shuriken, and punish me with volley every few misses. You think those things are easy to hit at max range? Right. The hit box is TINY. In all cases, Shuriken lets you reliably apply 1 mark of the storm IF YOU HIT (and then they can just back off). Remember, max shuriken range >> max W range. You have NO way of following the shuriken hit against anyone remotely intelligent. Getting energy ball to close to gap to autoattack range lets you reliably apply TWO mark of the storms. You don't need to hit with the energy ball to realize THIS IS MUCH BETTER. i'd like to play a practice game sometime against your red pot ashe. Utahime right? What is Utahime?.. Southlight's Summoner name in LoL.
Direct translation of which being something like "Song Princess"
On July 01 2010 01:00 Southlight wrote:
Also, you don't need to follow-up the Shuriken mark. The whole point is you have a free harassment skill with great range. It's similar to Kat. She'll BB you. By no means is there any compulsion for her to close the distance and Shunpo/ult you after she BBs. She'll just wait until the next time it cools off. What's the point you might ask? Well ask the 100 HP she just carved off with BB.
Edit:
Also, just pointing out that I'm not downing Kennen's laning power, by any means. I agree wholeheartedly that he's one of the best laners in the game at the moment.
Comparing those skills is like comparing Sivir's ricochet harrass to Morgana harrassing with her normal attacks.
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On July 01 2010 00:57 Southlight wrote:
Taking Lightning, which is by all accounts a useless skill in this particular instance, is mindbogglingly nonsensical.
Edit:
Yup. That's me.
It's the only way to even get an autoattack in once ashe is level 2 and her volley starts applying slow.....
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Hmmm. Their range difference is 25, which is really, really manageable if you're gunning for it, you can and probably should be able to snag Ashe if she's last-hitting. Also, a competent Ashe won't really be Volleying creep unless she's focused more on damaging you than taking you out of the lane, so that's all mind-games. Hahah.
On July 01 2010 01:04 Shikyo wrote:
Comparing those skills is like comparing Sivir's ricochet harrass to Morgana harrassing with her normal attacks.
Really? I think BB and Shuriken serve pretty much the same focus, as well as Ezreal's Mystic Shot and a few others I'm probably forgetting.
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On July 01 2010 01:08 Southlight wrote:
Hmmm. Their range difference is 25, which is really, really manageable if you're gunning for it, you can and probably should be able to snag Ashe if she's last-hitting. Also, a competent Ashe won't really be Volleying creep unless she's focused more on damaging you than taking you out of the lane, so that's all mind-games. Hahah.
You will never be even close to her attacking range while she's lasthitting, and the Ashe can easily move and kite and volley. And of course the Ashe would very well volley to lasthit a creep and hit the opponent at the same time.
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I'm gonna try playing twitch since he's so damn dominant at my ELO.
I read all the guides on the lol site and they all go different directions and are probably outdated. Currently, what is the standard item build for twitch?
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On July 01 2010 01:08 Southlight wrote:Hmmm. Their range difference is 25, which is really, really manageable if you're gunning for it, you can and probably should be able to snag Ashe if she's last-hitting. Also, a competent Ashe won't really be Volleying creep unless she's focused more on damaging you than taking you out of the lane, so that's all mind-games. Hahah. Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 01:04 Shikyo wrote:
Comparing those skills is like comparing Sivir's ricochet harrass to Morgana harrassing with her normal attacks. Really? I think BB and Shuriken serve pretty much the same focus, as well as Ezreal's Mystic Shot and a few others I'm probably forgetting.
Frankly, I never actually been zoned THIS badly by ashe before I'm just talking my ass about that one. Haha. Most ashes I know won't be able win out in an auto-attack war by standing on my side of the creeps, though, red pot or no red pot, because I'll stun them way too much.
If you get a friend request from someone you don't know, that's me.
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On July 01 2010 01:08 Southlight wrote:Hmmm. Their range difference is 25, which is really, really manageable if you're gunning for it, you can and probably should be able to snag Ashe if she's last-hitting. Also, a competent Ashe won't really be Volleying creep unless she's focused more on damaging you than taking you out of the lane, so that's all mind-games. Hahah. Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 01:04 Shikyo wrote:
Comparing those skills is like comparing Sivir's ricochet harrass to Morgana harrassing with her normal attacks. Really? I think BB and Shuriken serve pretty much the same focus, as well as Ezreal's Mystic Shot and a few others I'm probably forgetting.
Shuriken is by far the worst one out of those. If you time BB properly, it'll always hit. Mystic Shot has a larger hitbox, more range, and a faster travel speed. Shuriken's really difficult to land properly. Even Mystic Shot can be troublesome to land, Shuriken is even harder.
Oh and if I'm getting mega-zoned by a red pot mid, I normally call a gank for mid. Normally it won't succeed but it'll at least force them back, give me and my tower a bit of breathing room, gives me a few free last-hits, and all of a sudden... their fort pot was almost useless. I think that's the best counter.
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EPT
