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On July 01 2010 00:08 Mogwai wrote:
on Kennen !!!???
I can't imagine not have 21 in defensive on Kennen.
I had 9-21-0, 0-9-21, x-y-z, Kennen etc. For me 21-0-9 Kennen works out the best. I know that Kennen is squishy already, but it works out better for me to control my lane in early game with 21-0-9 masteries. And then having fun with ganking. Agreed that x-21-x lets you have better staying power, but I'll prefer to out-dmg (hopefully) people in early-mid-game and then getting Zhonyas eventually, to make up my squishyness.
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On July 01 2010 00:16 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:14 Juicyfruit wrote:
Let me just outline basic sequence of what I think might happen.
- I buy doran's shield and red pot
- I go to lane with my W passive almost charged (off the neutral camp by kiting the wolf or golem around). Not fully charged because that's obvious.
- Ashe hits me with crit. That's unavoidable in most cases
- I try to hit her back from somewhere that won't also result in me eating a volley
- I apply my first mark of the storm within 2 hits
- I W
- I continue attacking ashe. Now she has a choice between standing and fight me with autoattacks (and eating that eventual stun) or running away and giving me free hits
- My 1 health pot will last me until I get to level 2 at least.
- Until then, I do my best to force Ashe to fort pot early.
- She'll explode her HP with fort pot eventually and try to get a kill.
- I keep my HP enough to powerball away
- She has now fort potted and hopefully I will have at least gotten 3 or 4 last hits in.
- I go back to base
- Buy 3 or 4 health potions
- Go back to lane with teleport or just E to get back without losing more than half a level of exp.
- Play aggressive again, because ashe is NOT going to outdamage and outlast kennen if she does not have the health pot advantage. Kennen just outputs so much more damage compared to her, especially if she's going to be attempting to zone me out Me on Ashe: *right-clicks on Kennen* *winz*
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
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On July 01 2010 00:15 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:06 Shikyo wrote:On July 01 2010 00:00 Southlight wrote:
Ez and Trist should never open Blade, IMO. Ez should open Sapphire or Long Sword to get ready to build into his next item (or Fort to abuse Q), and Trist is also better off buying something like Longsword 2xpot or a Shield. If ezreal wants the better Q while having a lot more survivability than with a long sword, it'd be viable. I personally would still go with long sword but that's a lot more risky. And it works pretty decently with Tristana actually, although I still prefer getting long sword on her as well. Her dmg is so tiny that just a shield might be tough. Incidentally, HP survivability is relatively negligible on Ezreal early on because he has such good range and has a teleport. Getting over 400 gold faster toward a Sheen or Brutalizer is much more important, as far as I've seen, although I can see how getting HP (in which I'd still take Shield, because most of the fear is of heroes like Panth who tear through armor) is nice.
Well of course I already said I'd get Long Sword on Ezreal. I still would rather get blade than shield on him, though.
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On July 01 2010 00:16 Shikyo wrote:
It all depends on how well you're able to farm. If you're on a solo lane and can get that 12-14min warmogs, it's not too bad. I personally almost never get it, though. My tank builds 100% of the time depend on the opposing team composition and who in their team is fed and who's doing decently, so I can't really say much except that Aegis, Banshee, and HoGs are all decent first choices.
If you're on a solo lane, with a tank, and you can farm 3000 gold in 12-14 minutes, there are issues in that game that go far beyond what your first item is.
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On July 01 2010 00:11 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:01 Shizuru~ wrote:
i always went for warmogs first for tanks regardless of champions, the first health pendant can keep u on the lane taking quite a bit of beating until lvl 9+, not to mention that warmogs gets better the earlier u get them for the creep or hero kill buff the item itself. actually i have no problem at all farming for gold with rammus, his Q is really good at farming gold, and most of the time pre lvl 11 i won't hesitate to use his ulti to clear creeps for cash, since its on such a short cooldown.
also i have been playing around with rylais scepter on shen and rammus, not that much useful since vorpal blade and his feint scale pretty badly with AP, but the extra slow effect on vorpal blade is really great at ganking, other than that, its pretty bad lol.
on rammus though, i find that his powerball scales 1:1 with AP, so with rylais you get a 380 dmg powerball, haven't really quite notice if the slow effects apply when using W reflecting dmg, but his ultimate gets a +30 dmg per second i think, but still the extra aoe slow effects seems small but its actually pretty good. Warmog is a bad item for cost. Theoretically it's the most cost-efficient item with regards to health (largely on the power of regen) but it sets you behind. I keep hammering this point out to people: the first expensive item you get is often going to be the only item you have for a significant amount of time, especially if you're in a tight game with lots of skirmishes, and even moreso especially if you're a team-friendly tank. Can you imagine going for like 15 minutes with nothing but Warmog and some sort of Boots? I can't. There're many items I'd rather take over Warmog on most heroes than that. I have heard it's okay for Shen, but that's because he has ample time to farm (can push a lane then ult to a teamfight) and because max HP procs his passive, and thus it's nice to have. For example the reason why I've seriously pondered just rushing GA on Rammus is because running around with HoG, Treads, and some random bits of items until the 20 minute mark (if the game is going badly) is not really that much more useful, either. Depending on the matchup I figure it might simply be better to get Treads and bits of GA pieces (if not GA itself) so I'd have like 100 magic resist - given how opponents are not likely to have heavy magic pen it'd probably work better with my low level of DCB.
On Cho I rush Zhonya's first and build to Warmog's after boots. Sometimes in short games I skip it because it's costly and doesn't have time to charge but in longer games it's pretty essential to have on Cho. He farms it pretty fast and late game he really needs the HP to go with his armor/MR for EHP.
The thing is that people are totally fine with buying just Giant's Belt and they're always like "you can get the same hp just stacking Giant's Belts", which is basically what I'm doing when I build towards Warmog's. Instead of the second one I get the upgrade. It costs about 500 more gold because you need Ruby Crystal, but that's fine for the huge added regen and HP bonuses you get from the initial upgrade plus the increase over time.
I think Warmog's is terrible on most champions but on Cho/Mordekaiser it's cool because they're the only two who benefit from it AND farm hard.
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On July 01 2010 00:14 Juicyfruit wrote:
Let me just outline basic sequence of what I think might happen.
- I buy doran's shield and red pot
- I go to lane with my W passive almost charged (off the neutral camp by kiting the wolf or golem around). Not fully charged because that's obvious.
- Ashe hits me with crit. That's unavoidable in most cases
- I try to hit her back from somewhere that won't also result in me eating a volley
- I apply my first mark of the storm within 2 hits
- I W
- I continue attacking ashe. Now she has a choice between standing and fight me with autoattacks (and eating that eventual stun) or running away and giving me free hits
- My 1 health pot will last me until I get to level 2 at least.
- Until then, I do my best to force Ashe to fort pot early.
- She'll explode her HP with fort pot eventually and try to get a kill.
- I keep my HP enough to powerball away so that her frost arrow doesn't screw me over
- She has now fort potted and hopefully I will have at least gotten 3 or 4 last hits in.
- I go back to base
- Buy 3 or 4 health potions
- Go back to lane with teleport or just E to get back without losing more than half a level of exp.
- Play aggressive again, because ashe is NOT going to outdamage and outlast kennen if she does not have the health pot advantage. Kennen just outputs so much more damage compared to her, especially if she's going to be attempting to zone me out.
Vs.
Level 1. I get shuriken.
- Ashe crits me
- I shuriken her
- She volleys me (I can't avoid this if I need to shuriken her)
- She continues to autoattack me
- I'm screwed for a whole level
I'm sorry but you aren't convincing anyone without a movie that shuriken is somehow bad and that not taking it or using it is somehow good.
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On July 01 2010 00:18 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:16 Shikyo wrote:
It all depends on how well you're able to farm. If you're on a solo lane and can get that 12-14min warmogs, it's not too bad. I personally almost never get it, though. My tank builds 100% of the time depend on the opposing team composition and who in their team is fed and who's doing decently, so I can't really say much except that Aegis, Banshee, and HoGs are all decent first choices. If you're on a solo lane, with a tank, and you can farm 3000 gold in 12-14 minutes, there are issues in that game that go far beyond what your first item is.
Yep, it assumes pretty much every lasthit and 1-2 kills/firstblood.
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On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long.
Edit:
Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it."
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I've gone for early Warmogs once or twice on Shen - it hasn't gone well. It's hard for Shen to get that amount of money without farming help from a Sunfire.
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On July 01 2010 00:09 Shikyo wrote:
The lifesteal is like 2-3 hp per hit, it's really negligible. The main point of the item is better lasthitting with added survivability, which Long Sword doesn't really offer. It also makes you able to clear jungle camps more easily.
"New Topic :
Any discussions about the new engergy runes ?"
Overpriced, and not too useful.
again this depends on your Mastery setup . As i said i have 21-0-9 masteries which gives you additional 3(?) dmg for minions and 3 dmg overall, I think at the start I'll have 69 dmg or smth like that. which makes 4-5 hp per hit (?). It seems small but it is fast enough. Dorans Shield gives u 8 HP over 5 secs which is less per secs. Either way, with Dorans Blade or generally with Blade or Vamp. Scepter, you dont start leeching when your already on low health. You should leech all the time, so that your health doesn't drop ... . The problem is that other champs try to harrass you so that your HP gets low, and then out-zone you. But with Kennen, I can deal a good amount of dmg back early game. The fact that I am ranged + good dmg Shurikens allow me to take control of the mid lane (Well most of the time  )
Engery runes:
Yeah I already spent ~7k ip on engery runes. They don't let me spam Shurikens much more. I'll have to experiment more.
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Also has anyone else been having a really, really terrible time in solo queue?
I just got paired with, in my past 10 games, a jungle heimerdinger, a guy who randomed AP corki, 1/10 morgana, 1/8 ryze, feedersticks, master feed, and a pantheon who kept ulting their base in the middle of teamfights to die backdooring towers.
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looks like we need some 1v1 Kennen vs X practice games
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well like... I used to run heavy offensive masteries on Pantheon because my working assumption was that my early laning power came from hitting really hard, so let's amplify that so that they're REALLY scared of me. The thing is that offensive masteries taper out in early usefulness REALLY REALLY quickly. Took me awhile, but I eventually begrudgingly accepted that Phreak had at least gotten that part of his Pantheon spotlight correct, because if nothing else, you eat a lot of creep aggro trying to harass and combo during laning, and trivializing this damage is way better than outputting an extra 20 damage with your combo.
If you show up for a ditto mid, I don't care who the champion is, if all other things are equal between a 21/0/9 and a 0/21/9 mastery setup, the defensively specced one is going to win. Defense > Offense early (see doran's shield vs. doran's blade) and I'm very strongly of the opinion that masteries are meant to suppliment 2 things:
1) summoner spells
2) early game
and unless you're crit based or getting improved rally, I can't justify more than 9 in offensive masteries ever.
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On July 01 2010 00:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also has anyone else been having a really, really terrible time in solo queue?
I just got paired with, in my past 10 games, a jungle heimerdinger, a guy who randomed AP corki, 1/10 morgana, 1/8 ryze, feedersticks, master feed, and a pantheon who kept ulting their base in the middle of teamfights to die backdooring towers.
Have I told you about the Twitch I had that took mid from my Gankplank and then fed so much that their Ashe was lvl 13 when he was 9 and then the Ashe destroyed us? Rushing Malady(twitch).
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On July 01 2010 00:24 myopia wrote:
looks like we need some 1v1 Kennen vs X practice games
I am always up for it. I'm your passionate Kennen tester lol.
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On July 01 2010 00:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also has anyone else been having a really, really terrible time in solo queue?
I just got paired with, in my past 10 games, a jungle heimerdinger, a guy who randomed AP corki, 1/10 morgana, 1/8 ryze, feedersticks, master feed, and a pantheon who kept ulting their base in the middle of teamfights to die backdooring towers.
This morning, A Lilac on Heimerdinger destroyed TaeRang (TF) so badly solo mid that he pushed their second tower down in about 12 minutes (TaeRang only got two teleport gank attempts off - one at bottom on me which failed cuz Kayle+Taric is funny survival, the other one on top to kill Aruss because he was 5 mana short of Deceive), and then we proceeded to bash their doors down one lane at a time.
http://www.lolbase.net/matches/view/US26910616
Yesterday, A Lilac fed twice and I lost both games.
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On July 01 2010 00:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also has anyone else been having a really, really terrible time in solo queue?
I just got paired with, in my past 10 games, a jungle heimerdinger, a guy who randomed AP corki, 1/10 morgana, 1/8 ryze, feedersticks, master feed, and a pantheon who kept ulting their base in the middle of teamfights to die backdooring towers.
yah lol no kidding i had like 9/10 looses few days ago cause of feeders. Im getting into depression playing tank/supports after this happens. Especially when your main team carry goes 0/10 or so...
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On July 01 2010 00:22 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:17 Juicyfruit wrote:
Kennen goes to lane with like 800HP. Ashe will eat 2 stuns at level 1 if she just stands there right clicking.
Hey, what a coincidence, my Ashe goes into lane with about 600 HP, 5 potions, a fortitude potion if so desired, has 0/21/9, and has Volley at level 1! And to top it off, she can kite you because you have less attack range. You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to abuse the fact that she has 4 more health potions (800 hp) than you do, but with an awesome lightning ball that doesn't actually do anything against level 1 Frost Arrow, and no potions, you're not lasting very long. Edit: Sorry, make that, "You may make it to level 2 without being zoned just because Ashe would like to hold onto her Fort until she actually needs it."
While you explained why Ashe can own a Kennen, I still question how exactly how shuriken is suppose to make things better. I have to eat like 2 volleys just to MAYBE land 1 shuriken. If I miss, my threat level is 0 until its off cooldown. God forbid I actually land one. So what? Ashe can just back off and wait for the mark to go off, and I have no way of getting close to apply the next 2 marks. Then I'm right back to the same old losing position.
SHURIKEN SUCKS.
To make it clear, I used to ALWAYS get shuriken first on Kennen. However, after playing with Kennen and soloing mid for a very long time, I've never had a better time in mid than after I stopped getting shuriken in favor of leveling energy ball faster. That 1 second of cooldown makes a HUGE difference once you're level 6 and is basically being a crazy aggressive mofo.
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On July 01 2010 00:37 lepshis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:23 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also has anyone else been having a really, really terrible time in solo queue?
I just got paired with, in my past 10 games, a jungle heimerdinger, a guy who randomed AP corki, 1/10 morgana, 1/8 ryze, feedersticks, master feed, and a pantheon who kept ulting their base in the middle of teamfights to die backdooring towers. yah lol no kidding i had like 9/10 looses few days ago cause of feeders. Im getting into depression playing tank/supports after this happens. Especially when your main team carry goes 0/10 or so...
When solo queueing, my attempted solution to this is to play champions that can carry the game almost by themselves. Of course, there are some games you just can't do anything about, especially if someone steals mid from you.
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my solution to solo queueing is to always play Pantheon... I think I might be doin' it wrong, but I'm really good at not having someone steal mid from me :p
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EPT
