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On June 30 2010 23:48 eaT_Mi_Lquid wrote:
As a main Kennen player here is my thought on Kennen solo-mid. :
Go Shuriken as your 1st and main skill. then level up W , on 4 lvl get E, etc. Shuriken is much more useful than "E" and does more dmg. / dmg over time because of its CD. and Buy Doran's Blade
General tactics for playing ranged heroes like Ashe/Teemo/TF. lvl until lvl 2. than hit minions unitl the counter is 4 then apply mark on the champ. + press "W" . This is one of the best harrass combos early game. If the enemy Champ is running from you and accidently out of his minion line, try to hit him with a shuriken for stun. Or else when he is stunned by ur "W" Combo, hit him with another easy Shuriken. At lvl 4 you have another skill to harrass, which makes Kennen more deadlier, again load up your "W" counter to 4 then Energyball to him and hit him with your combo + Shuriken, Its very effective on Ashe/Teemo/TF characters, on other characters with more HP you must wear them down little by little, until you should rush in for the kill. At lvl 6, its quite easy , no need to comment.
As Summoner Skills, Ignite is a good choice for finishing, since Kennen solo mid is a good harrasser. First Item should be Dorans Blade, which gives you HP for the necessary survivability for early duels, Dmg, for last hitting minions and crucial dmg for duels, Lifesteal is nice to get ur HP back. 6% of ~65 dmg is about 4hp/attack, which is ok.
Doran's shield can be considered too. But it depends on your style. However Doran's blade is better to keep control of mid-lane.
ummmm, I think Shield is much much better early in most cases. the one interesting thing is that while I almost always say that Shield > Sword early because autoattacking creeps except to last hit is typically a bad idea, Kennen has a stronger case than most for Sword because he needs to autoattack creeps to get his W procs anyway. But I still think Shield is the way to go, simply because the extra 8 armor really helps you win auto-attack fights and is especially useful vs. Ez/Ashe/Panth's physical skills (even if you prefer sword in most matchups, when fighting one of those 3, shield is clearly preferable).
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On June 30 2010 23:56 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:55 Orpheos wrote:
can anyone properly explain to me a case where taking doran blade over shield is appropriate as a first item? i just dont see it. life steal is almost negligible and autoattacking to heal up is generally not going to happen in laning especially when you most need it(getting zoned/pressured). and i dont feel like the AD is enough to justify losing the staying power of shield. If you're going to stack Blades, maybe. Either that or your hero benefits from the damage (like Akali), maybe? I still think Blade is a terrible item.
This really depends on the Champ. For me Doran's blade is better on Kennen than Doran's Shield (see my post above).
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Ez and Trist should never open Blade, IMO. Ez should open Sapphire or Long Sword to get ready to build into his next item (or Fort to abuse Q), and Trist is also better off buying something like Longsword 2xpot or a Shield.
On June 30 2010 23:57 eaT_Mi_Lquid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:53 Southlight wrote:
You brought up Ashe, and I explained how badly Ashe beats down a Kennen without Shuriken. I don't know how the matchup works for other heroes, except that I know Kat will also decimate a Kennen.
Kennen does, however, own Panth in the face, which is really funny. From my experiences I go 50-50 with Kat. Kat can deal a lot of dmg with here bouncing thingy and tp, but I can hurt to. If she jumps into me, its a free Shuriken hit. I always have to make sure that my "W" is on 3/4. to punish her. It's always fun to play Kennen vs. Kat. mid. it really depends on the players.
Definitely player skill-based, but I'd take a good Kat (like redtooth) over a good Kennen any day in that matchup, personally.
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On June 30 2010 23:53 Southlight wrote:
You brought up Ashe, and I explained how badly Ashe beats down a Kennen without Shuriken. I don't know how the matchup works for other heroes, except that I know Kat will also decimate a Kennen.
Kennen does, however, own Panth in the face, which is really funny.
Shuriken at level 1 does absolutely jack on its own because you can't even follow that up with anything. It's not going to save kennen from being zoned. At level 2, it's not more useful than the energy ball because then ashe will just kite you forever, dodge your shuriken, and volley your face. At level 3, you'll want W again.
In no situation can I imagine shuriken making things remotely better for me compared to just leveling up W and E. Those actually let me fight back.
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i always went for warmogs first for tanks regardless of champions, the first health pendant can keep u on the lane taking quite a bit of beating until lvl 9+, not to mention that warmogs gets better the earlier u get them for the creep or hero kill buff the item itself. actually i have no problem at all farming for gold with rammus, his Q is really good at farming gold, and most of the time pre lvl 11 i won't hesitate to use his ulti to clear creeps for cash, since its on such a short cooldown.
also i have been playing around with rylais scepter on shen and rammus, not that much useful since vorpal blade and his feint scale pretty badly with AP, but the extra slow effect on vorpal blade is really great at ganking, other than that, its pretty bad lol.
on rammus though, i find that his powerball scales 1:1 with AP, so with rylais you get a 380 dmg powerball, haven't really quite notice if the slow effects apply when using W reflecting dmg, but his ultimate gets a +30 dmg per second i think, but still the extra aoe slow effects seems small but its actually pretty good.
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what's so hard to understand about shuriken being 100% about having another skill that can reliably add a mark?
EDIT: I mean... I just don't get what's hard to understand about this... if you are trying to rely on E to get in and apply a mark, you're also accepting the consequences of getting really close to your opponent. I really don't understand why on earth you would ever think that getting E early is something you should do... presumably, you're not getting your ass kicked so bad by level 2 that you need an escape mechanism and getting close and doing negligible damage to add a mark is so much worse than a long range skill shot with low CD that you can use to setup W proc -> active W stuns...
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On July 01 2010 00:00 Juicyfruit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:53 Southlight wrote:
You brought up Ashe, and I explained how badly Ashe beats down a Kennen without Shuriken. I don't know how the matchup works for other heroes, except that I know Kat will also decimate a Kennen.
Kennen does, however, own Panth in the face, which is really funny. Shuriken at level 1 does absolutely jack on its own because you can't even follow that up with anything. It's not going to save kennen from being zoned. At level 2, it's not more useful than the energy ball because then ashe will just kite you forever, dodge your shuriken, and volley your face. At level 3, you'll want W again. In no situation can I imagine shuriken making things remotely better for me compared to just leveling up W and E.
It has very good range, it does damage, and it adds a crucial mark that lets you "fight back" and harass at level 2 (in conjunction with W). How is it not better than either a skill that's useless unless you decide to stand and fight at the beginning of the game (W) and a skill that's garbage against Ashe (E)?
As opposed to...
At level 2 being able to, like, autoattack Ashe and hope you get lucky (leveling W and then E), why would you not opt for being able to threaten Ashe at long range and be able to get an easy stun at level 2 (Q W).
I seriously don't understand the logic, it's like saying oh no shuriken lets me actually threaten the Ashe, both standalone and at level 2, I'm going to not get it.
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On July 01 2010 00:00 Southlight wrote:
Ez and Trist should never open Blade, IMO. Ez should open Sapphire or Long Sword to get ready to build into his next item (or Fort to abuse Q), and Trist is also better off buying something like Longsword 2xpot or a Shield.
If ezreal wants the better Q while having a lot more survivability than with a long sword, it'd be viable. I personally would still go with long sword but that's a lot more risky. And it works pretty decently with Tristana actually, although I still prefer getting long sword on her as well. Her dmg is so tiny that just a shield might be tough.
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On June 30 2010 23:58 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:48 eaT_Mi_Lquid wrote:
As a main Kennen player here is my thought on Kennen solo-mid. :
Go Shuriken as your 1st and main skill. then level up W , on 4 lvl get E, etc. Shuriken is much more useful than "E" and does more dmg. / dmg over time because of its CD. and Buy Doran's Blade
General tactics for playing ranged heroes like Ashe/Teemo/TF. lvl until lvl 2. than hit minions unitl the counter is 4 then apply mark on the champ. + press "W" . This is one of the best harrass combos early game. If the enemy Champ is running from you and accidently out of his minion line, try to hit him with a shuriken for stun. Or else when he is stunned by ur "W" Combo, hit him with another easy Shuriken. At lvl 4 you have another skill to harrass, which makes Kennen more deadlier, again load up your "W" counter to 4 then Energyball to him and hit him with your combo + Shuriken, Its very effective on Ashe/Teemo/TF characters, on other characters with more HP you must wear them down little by little, until you should rush in for the kill. At lvl 6, its quite easy , no need to comment.
As Summoner Skills, Ignite is a good choice for finishing, since Kennen solo mid is a good harrasser. First Item should be Dorans Blade, which gives you HP for the necessary survivability for early duels, Dmg, for last hitting minions and crucial dmg for duels, Lifesteal is nice to get ur HP back. 6% of ~65 dmg is about 4hp/attack, which is ok.
Doran's shield can be considered too. But it depends on your style. However Doran's blade is better to keep control of mid-lane. ummmm, I think Shield is much much better early in most cases. the one interesting thing is that while I almost always say that Shield > Sword early because autoattacking creeps except to last hit is typically a bad idea, Kennen has a stronger case than most for Sword because he needs to autoattack creeps to get his W procs anyway. But I still think Shield is the way to go, simply because the extra 8 armor really helps you win auto-attack fights and is especially useful vs. Ez/Ashe/Panth's physical skills (even if you prefer sword in most matchups, when fighting one of those 3, shield is clearly preferable).
As you said, Shield is generally stronger than Blade, but it depends on your style. I'm playing fairly aggressive nowadays and i find it better to have blade than shield. I'm also playing 21-0-9 masteries, which makes additional difference whether to choose blade or shield. But this is already individual style, so yeah it depends on your taste i guess.
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On June 30 2010 23:59 eaT_Mi_Lquid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 23:56 Southlight wrote:On June 30 2010 23:55 Orpheos wrote:
can anyone properly explain to me a case where taking doran blade over shield is appropriate as a first item? i just dont see it. life steal is almost negligible and autoattacking to heal up is generally not going to happen in laning especially when you most need it(getting zoned/pressured). and i dont feel like the AD is enough to justify losing the staying power of shield. If you're going to stack Blades, maybe. Either that or your hero benefits from the damage (like Akali), maybe? I still think Blade is a terrible item. This really depends on the Champ. For me Doran's blade is better on Kennen than Doran's Shield (see my post above).
i dont think the "see my post above" is very informative. your post makes a case for why you might want dorans blade. but from what i can see dorans shield does all the stuff you want blade for, just better.
i guess it does make sense that you have to auto attack for W charging anyways, but i still think the lifesteal is inferior cause it might be better when you are getting alot of hits and stuff, but thats not when you need life the most. you need life the most when you lost a whole bunch of life and you need to sit back abit.
i guess jungling makes sense. i just thought there are better items for that. and akali works too, but to be honest, i still prefered dorans shield with her and just pick up the passive later cause i really like staying in lane and being aggressive to harrass until lvl 6 and just diving. and the lifesteal/vamp doesnt quite let me do that. then again i havent played akali in a long time, and i probably wont anymore because i think she sucks alot.
edit*
idk from experience i think dorans shield lets you play more aggressively because you are allowed more leeway with your health and taking damage
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@ eatmyliquid: on Kennen !!!???
I can't imagine not have 21 in defensive on Kennen...
@ orpheous: the supposed upside to blade is that it scales better to end game. while early the lifesteal is a mostly wasted stat, later in the game on a ranged carry, you'll feel 4% lifesteal and 6 damage more than 8 armor and 8 HP/5. that and stacking blades is very cost effective in terms of early-> mid game when you're not looking to fill those slots anyway. I've done the math a lot and 3 blades is just really really efficient, it's like getting 2 ruby crystals, 2 long swords, and a vampiric scepter for 1305. of course the downisde is later when you want to improve your itemization, but w/e, the stacking doran's blades build makes a certain level of sense.
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LOL I would like to quit the Kennen discussion 
If you don't believe it, we may play some practice games together  .
New Topic :
Any discussions about the new engergy runes ?
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The lifesteal is like 2-3 hp per hit, it's really negligible. The main point of the item is better lasthitting with added survivability, which Long Sword doesn't really offer. It also makes you able to clear jungle camps more easily.
"New Topic :
Any discussions about the new engergy runes ?"
Overpriced, and not too useful.
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On July 01 2010 00:01 Shizuru~ wrote:
i always went for warmogs first for tanks regardless of champions, the first health pendant can keep u on the lane taking quite a bit of beating until lvl 9+, not to mention that warmogs gets better the earlier u get them for the creep or hero kill buff the item itself. actually i have no problem at all farming for gold with rammus, his Q is really good at farming gold, and most of the time pre lvl 11 i won't hesitate to use his ulti to clear creeps for cash, since its on such a short cooldown.
also i have been playing around with rylais scepter on shen and rammus, not that much useful since vorpal blade and his feint scale pretty badly with AP, but the extra slow effect on vorpal blade is really great at ganking, other than that, its pretty bad lol.
on rammus though, i find that his powerball scales 1:1 with AP, so with rylais you get a 380 dmg powerball, haven't really quite notice if the slow effects apply when using W reflecting dmg, but his ultimate gets a +30 dmg per second i think, but still the extra aoe slow effects seems small but its actually pretty good.
Warmog is a bad item for cost. Theoretically it's the most cost-efficient item with regards to health (largely on the power of regen) but it sets you behind. I keep hammering this point out to people: the first expensive item you get is often going to be the only item you have for a significant amount of time, especially if you're in a tight game with lots of skirmishes, and even moreso especially if you're a team-friendly tank. Can you imagine going for like 15 minutes with nothing but Warmog and some sort of Boots? I can't. There're many items I'd rather take over Warmog on most heroes than that. I have heard it's okay for Shen, but that's because he has ample time to farm (can push a lane then ult to a teamfight) and because max HP procs his passive, and thus it's nice to have.
For example the reason why I've seriously pondered just rushing GA on Rammus is because running around with HoG, Treads, and some random bits of items until the 20 minute mark (if the game is going badly) is not really that much more useful, either. Depending on the matchup I figure it might simply be better to get Treads and bits of GA pieces (if not GA itself) so I'd have like 100 magic resist - given how opponents are not likely to have heavy magic pen it'd probably work better with my low level of DCB.
Edit:
I had a game with SINGED yesterday where 30 minutes into a game all I had was Banshees and Treads. Couldn't farm because we had a Shaco doing my whole "rice one lane" thing and the other team was pushing hardcore. If I had Warmog instead of Banshee I would have been even more useless.
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God I just had like 10 games in a row with HUGE feeders on my team, doing shit like jungle heimerdinger and AP corki and 1/8 ryze 1/10 morgana.
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Let me just outline basic sequence of what I think might happen.
- I buy doran's shield and red pot
- I go to lane with my W passive almost charged (off the neutral camp by kiting the wolf or golem around). Not fully charged because that's obvious.
- Ashe hits me with crit. That's unavoidable in most cases
- I try to hit her back from somewhere that won't also result in me eating a volley
- I apply my first mark of the storm within 2 hits
- I W
- I continue attacking ashe. Now she has a choice between standing and fight me with autoattacks (and eating that eventual stun) or running away and giving me free hits
- My 1 health pot will last me until I get to level 2 at least.
- Until then, I do my best to force Ashe to fort pot early.
- She'll explode her HP with fort pot eventually and try to get a kill.
- I keep my HP enough to powerball away so that her frost arrow doesn't screw me over
- She has now fort potted and hopefully I will have at least gotten 3 or 4 last hits in.
- I go back to base
- Buy 3 or 4 health potions
- Go back to lane with teleport or just E to get back without losing more than half a level of exp.
- Play aggressive again, because ashe is NOT going to outdamage and outlast kennen if she does not have the health pot advantage. Kennen just outputs so much more damage compared to her, especially if she's going to be attempting to zone me out.
Vs.
Level 1. I get shuriken.
- Ashe crits me
- I shuriken her
- She volleys me (I can't avoid this if I need to shuriken her)
- She continues to autoattack me
- I'm screwed for a whole level
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On July 01 2010 00:06 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:00 Southlight wrote:
Ez and Trist should never open Blade, IMO. Ez should open Sapphire or Long Sword to get ready to build into his next item (or Fort to abuse Q), and Trist is also better off buying something like Longsword 2xpot or a Shield. If ezreal wants the better Q while having a lot more survivability than with a long sword, it'd be viable. I personally would still go with long sword but that's a lot more risky. And it works pretty decently with Tristana actually, although I still prefer getting long sword on her as well. Her dmg is so tiny that just a shield might be tough.
Incidentally, HP survivability is relatively negligible on Ezreal early on because he has such good range and has a teleport. Getting over 400 gold faster toward a Sheen or Brutalizer is much more important, as far as I've seen, although I can see how getting HP (in which I'd still take Shield, because most of the fear is of heroes like Panth who tear through armor) is nice.
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jungle heimer is pro tho, doesn't he solo dragon really quickly, lol?
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On July 01 2010 00:14 Juicyfruit wrote:
Let me just outline basic sequence of what I think might happen.
- I buy doran's shield and red pot
- I go to lane with my W passive almost charged (off the neutral camp by kiting the wolf or golem around). Not fully charged because that's obvious.
- Ashe hits me with crit. That's unavoidable in most cases
- I try to hit her back from somewhere that won't also result in me eating a volley
- I apply my first mark of the storm within 2 hits
- I W
- I continue attacking ashe. Now she has a choice between standing and fight me with autoattacks (and eating that eventual stun) or running away and giving me free hits
- My 1 health pot will last me until I get to level 2 at least.
- Until then, I do my best to force Ashe to fort pot early.
- She'll explode her HP with fort pot eventually and try to get a kill.
- I keep my HP enough to powerball away
- She has now fort potted and hopefully I will have at least gotten 3 or 4 last hits in.
- I go back to base
- Buy 3 or 4 health potions
- Go back to lane with teleport or just E to get back without losing more than half a level of exp.
- Play aggressive again, because ashe is NOT going to outdamage and outlast kennen if she does not have the health pot advantage. Kennen just outputs so much more damage compared to her, especially if she's going to be attempting to zone me out
Me on Ashe:
*right-clicks on Kennen*
*winz*
Edit:
No, seriously, I don't care how many charges you have. You have 0 sustained damage. I will right-click you, I will zone you out, and I have 5 health potions to your 1.
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On July 01 2010 00:11 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 00:01 Shizuru~ wrote:
i always went for warmogs first for tanks regardless of champions, the first health pendant can keep u on the lane taking quite a bit of beating until lvl 9+, not to mention that warmogs gets better the earlier u get them for the creep or hero kill buff the item itself. actually i have no problem at all farming for gold with rammus, his Q is really good at farming gold, and most of the time pre lvl 11 i won't hesitate to use his ulti to clear creeps for cash, since its on such a short cooldown.
also i have been playing around with rylais scepter on shen and rammus, not that much useful since vorpal blade and his feint scale pretty badly with AP, but the extra slow effect on vorpal blade is really great at ganking, other than that, its pretty bad lol.
on rammus though, i find that his powerball scales 1:1 with AP, so with rylais you get a 380 dmg powerball, haven't really quite notice if the slow effects apply when using W reflecting dmg, but his ultimate gets a +30 dmg per second i think, but still the extra aoe slow effects seems small but its actually pretty good. Warmog is a bad item for cost. Theoretically it's the most cost-efficient item with regards to health (largely on the power of regen) but it sets you behind. I keep hammering this point out to people: the first expensive item you get is often going to be the only item you have for a significant amount of time, especially if you're in a tight game with lots of skirmishes, and even moreso especially if you're a team-friendly tank. Can you imagine going for like 15 minutes with nothing but Warmog and some sort of Boots? I can't. There're many items I'd rather take over Warmog on most heroes than that. I have heard it's okay for Shen, but that's because he has ample time to farm (can push a lane then ult to a teamfight) and because max HP procs his passive, and thus it's nice to have. For example the reason why I've seriously pondered just rushing GA on Rammus is because running around with HoG, Treads, and some random bits of items until the 20 minute mark (if the game is going badly) is not really that much more useful, either. Depending on the matchup I figure it might simply be better to get Treads and bits of GA pieces (if not GA itself) so I'd have like 100 magic resist - given how opponents are not likely to have heavy magic pen it'd probably work better with my low level of DCB. Edit: I had a game with SINGED yesterday where 30 minutes into a game all I had was Banshees and Treads. Couldn't farm because we had a Shaco doing my whole "rice one lane" thing and the other team was pushing hardcore. If I had Warmog instead of Banshee I would have been even more useless.
It all depends on how well you're able to farm. If you're on a solo lane and can get that 12-14min warmogs, it's not too bad. I personally almost never get it, though. My tank builds 100% of the time depend on the opposing team composition and who in their team is fed and who's doing decently, so I can't really say much except that Aegis, Banshee, and HoGs are all decent first choices.
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EPT
