On June 29 2010 17:54 keV. wrote: I want nothing more than to be good at this game. SOMEONE HELP.
How the hell do I practice. My execution isn't terrible, I just have no idea how to play intelligently! I've been playing Akuma mainly, but I'd like to learn Makoto and Juri because they are awesome characters.
I felt I had some OK strides today when I was racking up some wins on XBL only zoning people with fireballs, footsies and anti air punishes. It started as my method to deal with the super turtle guiles I keep running into and when I realized I was actually zoning people realtively intelligently I just kept at it for a few hours.
I have no idea how to practice this game, so if anyone has any tips I'd love to hear them! I'm hooked on the competitive scene, the only problem is that I suck... It's a lot like starcraft I guess, but in that regard I actually have practice partners and a good idea of how to practice.
One way to practice any fighting game is to go into training mode and just practice the combos that you want until you can do them without thinking. Set the training dummy to auto-block so you will know right away if your combos are actually combos. If the dummy is blocking anything after the first attack, you're not combo'ing. If your moves are not coming out, you're doing them too fast.
Once you have your combo down, change the dummy to random-block. What you are practicing with this is to recognize when to switch to a safer combo for block strings. This will help you practice hit confirming.
Eventually once you are comfortable with the character you are learning, move on to playing with real people, hopefully in your local scene because that is where you really learn the mind games and adjusting on the fly and the psychological aspects of the game. With all those combos you practiced, when you do eventually land a hit, you'll transition straight into your combo dealing a fair chunk of damage.
Just wanted to give my thanks for the advice you guys gave. Particularly Bill, way more than I expected and I have it all saved in a text file on my desktop! I'm going back east for a few weeks then when I come back I try and do some research on the WA, King County/Seattle area SF4 community!
Also didn't see this yet! ESWC results in spoiler:
• Final Four: Martin "Marn" Phan (C. Viper) defeated Infiltration (Akuma) 3-1.
Round 2
Group 1 1st: Infiltration, Korea (Akuma) 2nd: Luffy, France (Rose) Eliminated: Laugh, Korea (Ryu) | LordDVD, France (E. Honda)
Group 2 1st: EG.Justin Wong, U.S.A. (Rufus) 2nd: EG.Martin "Marn" Phan, U.S.A. (Rufus) Eliminated: Dignitas.Zak Bennet, United Kingdom (Boxer) | LLL.Ryan "Prodigal Son" Hart, United Kingdom (Sagat)
Round 1
Group 1 1st: Laugh, Korea (Ryu) 2nd: LLL.Ryan "Prodigal Son" Hart, United Kingdom (Sagat) Eliminated: Yagami, Sweden (Dhalsim) | Yamazaki, France (Rose)
Group 2 1st: Infiltration, Korea (Akuma) 2nd: Dignitas.Zak Bennet, United Kingdom (Boxer) Eliminated: Brun0, Brazil (Akuma) | Handy, Indonesia (Guy)
Group 3 1st: EG.Martin "Marn" Phan, U.S.A. (Rufus) 2nd: Luffy, France (Rose) Eliminated: GeoM PKK, Colombia (Guile) | Chunkis, Ireland (Sagat or Guy) | Fox Characters listed for group 3 have not been confirmed yet.
Group 4 1st: EG.Justin Wong, U.S.A. (Rufus) 2nd: LordDVD, France (E. Honda) Eliminated: BlackieEX, Poland | Chasin, Netherlands
Anyone play Bison here? need help vs Ryu. Mostly fires fireball in the back, and bait my jump-in with c.hp or lp dp.
and within range, he does that cross up kick, either lp lp or throw. Basically I can only block then guess his throw or eat more jabs. Any counters to this? cuz I cant punish it with ex skullstump.
It shouldn't be that bad vs Ryu. You would do usual spacing (focus, s.mk, s.hk, etc.) against fireballs while at range, with occasional EX Scissor through fireballs or something like that. And your j.HP should be able to beat Ryu c.HP if done correctly. Basically you shouldn't really be doing predictable jump ins at all. At jab distance... you cant really do anything about it other than reacting better and teching/blocking. Don't know why you NEED to explicitly counter it. No comment on EX stomp its whatever. wont hit fireballs unless you predict and you dont actually "punish" anything with it.
I never had a main in SF4 but in SSF4 I main Juri. Its so fun to do her combos, I mean every character has a mix up for combos besides like thawk and zangief but she's so fun to use with either of her ultras. The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty. A ryu beat me with throws and charged focus attacks but I learned an important lesson: There is no level of petty moves that people won't resort to. Jumping around with jabs and throws is almost as effective as learning combos and actually blocking. I'm not the greatest at the game. But I don't think I'm the worst either.
thanks SayaSP, so EX stomp to get out of jump-in combos is bad? (for other chars besides Ryu)I admit its pretty bad, cuz I dont see pros use it.
and is Ultra 2 on fireball legit or not preferred? Either I will have a good reaction or they have to dumb a predictable?
added: Bison vs Ryu Match up from SRK(if anyone cares) + Show Spoiler +
Ryu Spoiler for matchup:
Ground Game: Ryu is a strong and fundamental zoning character. Fireballs to keep YOU busy jumping and blocking. Difference between Bison and the rest of the character is that whil Ryu controls his corner of the screen on the ground, you can control the aerial corner of your screen with Devil's Reverse to get closer to Ryu. Devil's Reverse is still good move to somewhat spam from long range but watch out for being too predictable because fireballs can be thrown to hit you on your landing zone. It's more recommending that you just use it here and there to just give Ryu some doubt to throw a fireball. Not just dodging fireballs from the long range, but most Ryu's basical game plan is fireball and uppercut anything that jumps in. Know the range at where uppercuts will hit and where you can jump over fireballs without penalty. Assess the Ryu players fireball game and see how often he throws fireballs, how often he throws out empty jabs and shorts to try and fake you out. A lot of people have a pattern they draw out so their fireballs aren't predictable.
If you can predict fireballs, you can get in really good with a jump in combo to deal some good damage and a TON of Bison's highest damage combos are off jump in j.HP.
Jumping Fierce/HP has a close place in many Bison's hearts, it's one of those great normals in the game that have a lot more than meets the eye to it. Refer to the Hit box thread and acquaint yourself with the size of the attack's damage and vulnerable properties. Not only is jumping fierce a good combo starter but also a great bait for uppercuts in the front and ambiguous cross up.
Ryu's fireball zoning game will probably end when you close into mid-range, this is where s.MK and s.HK are really useful in interrupting Ryu and playing the footsie game. Ryu's furthest poke at mid-range is c.MK, and more than enough they'll follow up with a hadouken cancel whether the c.MK hits or blocks. If the c.MK is blocked, half the time they'll not fireball or they will fireball; either way, the blocked c.MK doesn't give that much block stun and if you decide to try to poke them a fireball usually ensues and hits you. Block those out and you're faced with more pokes or fireball attempts or an eager Ryu waiting for you to jump into his uppercut. Don't, stop and see what he tries to do, poke back with s.MK and just footsie them some more. Utilize ex scissor kick and know its max range to punish Ryu's fireball. Knockdowns are important.
If he's not throwing out fireballs, he's waiting for pokes and an uppercut opportunity. There's really no other option for both parties as it's a footsie and poke contest. Jumping is one of the worst things to do in this match ups. Light Knee Press to chip Ryu is also a good approach to match his c.MK xx Hadouken cancels. He has a safe solution, and you have a safe solution. You can beat out those c.MK xx Hadouken cancels with an EX-Knee Press or EX-Psycho Crusher, but like what was mentioned earlier, 50% of the time a hadouken follows, and 50% they don't hadouken because they are waiting for another attack. If you realize you're fighting a very c.MK xx Hadouken spammy Ryu, it may be okay to go for these.
Besides c.MK xx Hadoukens in mid to close range, Ryu has a fairly quick overhead with f+MP that can be caught; block it high and then low again as there may be a c.MK following right after. If he jumps you can easily dash under Ryu and kick him from behind if your reflexes are fast enough. While you're still in mid to close range
All Blocked Ryu crouching Roundhouse/HK are free LK Knee Press punishes. If you are very close to Ryu, you can also land c.MP s.MK link too I believe. It is also TECHNICALLY punishable by Ultra I but you'd have to input Ultra I(11f startup) in about 1~3f because blocked Ryu c.HK is -14f.
If and when you corner Ryu, he has very few options to retaliate, but they are powerful ones. Bison corners well with LK Knee Press. Blocked or not, they will take some hefty damage and they will add up. Space yourself out a bit closer to mid range and hit him down. Mix up your LK Knee Press with s.HK (close) to shut down jump escape attempts or s.MK (mid-to-close range) to poke them back into the corner and push yourself into a comfortable position since s.HK doesn't hit crouching characters as often in SSF4 (if he crouches in the corner). If you catch him standing, slide him and get back to your previous position to stalk the next move. LK Knee Press starts up in 10f so any normal moves that Ryu has that is starting up faster than 10f and can extend to the vulnerable hit box of LK Knee Press, it will interrupt the loops and mix up pressure.
His main escape from this position is air tatsu; which isn't entirely safe. If you have Ultra II, you can quickly chase down Ryu and Ultra him on his recovery. Take some time in training mode to practice the timing.
Air Game: Ryu has good options in the air against Bison. His j.MP has a lot of active frames to catch people but they likely won't throw it all the time unless you catch them trying to fish for a j.MP juggle into Ultra I or Ultra II. Air EX-Tatsu's are wild cards and they might toss it out randomly but if they whiff, you can hit them so hard on recovery with combos or Ultra punishes. Regular air Tatsu can hit or miss depending on which side the hit box is facing towards Bison.
Ultra Combo: Ultra I can hit off a few things. Shoryuken FADC, j.MP juggle, LP Shoryuken anti air, corner EX-Tatsu, EX-Hadouken link and SUPER link in some situations. The best ways around denying him opportunities to dish out this Ultra is to compromise some of Bison's moves since they are vulnerable to a lot of these setups (Shoryuken FADC, j.MP, AA LP Shoryuken). The primary one being Shoryuken FADC bring a 2f start to boot leaves Bison room for VERY little error. Badly used EX-Psycho Crushers, blocked Psycho Crushers, blocked MK/HK/EX Knee Press will give up opportunities for Ryu to utilize his meters for the damage. Luckily the damage is actually nerfed by a ton in SSF4 so if you are very healthy on the life lead, it may not always be detrimental if they are able to pull it off. Ultra II can hit off Shoryuken FADC, j.MP juggle and I don't know what else. The damage is abysmally low when it doesn't hit full animation, so be more careful about empty Devil's Reverse or whiffed Head Press because Ryu can get full Ultra II off those; and it hurts... a lot when it connects.
On July 04 2010 16:20 Odinsphere wrote: The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty.
I like it when people do the same thing over and over, because then it's easier to learn how to beat that thing, or at least alerts you to something you need to figure out how to counter. I played a T. Hawk on XBL that just did his dive over and over again, and I was confused for the first round how to punish it since none of my normal anti-air moves were working. Then I realized I could just block and do a pinwheel and hit him every time EZ. Now I'll always remember that.
I'm new to the game, just got it a week ago. I'm also playing Juri (man it seems like everyone is maining Juri, but I rarely see her online). I appreciate the advice you guys gave on how best to practice! Right now I figure I should just grind out losses on XBL and practice combos in training mode... I feel like I need to get a better handle on the general strategy of the game before I try to learn how to execute long combos
On July 04 2010 16:20 Odinsphere wrote: I never had a main in SF4 but in SSF4 I main Juri. Its so fun to do her combos, I mean every character has a mix up for combos besides like thawk and zangief but she's so fun to use with either of her ultras. The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty. A ryu beat me with throws and charged focus attacks but I learned an important lesson: There is no level of petty moves that people won't resort to. Jumping around with jabs and throws is almost as effective as learning combos and actually blocking. I'm not the greatest at the game. But I don't think I'm the worst either.
Everything in this game has a counter -- in fact, almost everything has multiple counters that you can choose from. If you lose to something "petty", then figure out (or ask) how to beat it.
He beat you with throws? You can do anything except block and you'll get away from a throw. Backdash, jump back, or stand (not crouch!) and mash throw yourself to tech the throw.
Charged focus attacks? If they're charged halfway, absorb them with a focus and then hit him when he dashes in. If they're charged fully, backdash or EX pinwheel to avoid it. If they're poorly timed, you can neutral jump and come down with j.HK for a nice combo. Also, remember that Juri's divekick breaks focus attacks, and if you can aim them at the opponent's feet, you won't have to worry about eating damage if they're blocked.
Jumping around with jabs? If he jumps at you, cr.mp (if you're Juri). If he jumps away from you, just keep walking or dashing forward until he's in the corner (which is a big disadvantage for him). If he jumps neutral, get close enough then shoot him down with your own jumping attack. If he jumps over your head (where cr.mp won't hit him), jump back and shoot him down with j.LP or j.LK.
Combos and blocking are important, but they won't win you games on their own. Before you can get strategic, you need to learn the basic counters of the game. Right now, it's like you've got your macro skills down, but you don't know which units counter zealots.
(With more experience, you can actually learn to develop counters against your opponents on-the-fly without prior experience against their tactics. But that's more for tournament players.)
On July 04 2010 16:49 anch wrote: thanks SayaSP, so EX stomp to get out of jump-in combos is bad? (for other chars besides Ryu)I admit its pretty bad, cuz I dont see pros use it.
and is Ultra 2 on fireball legit or not preferred? Either I will have a good reaction or they have to dumb a predictable?
added: Bison vs Ryu Match up from SRK(if anyone cares) + Show Spoiler +
Ryu Spoiler for matchup:
Ground Game: Ryu is a strong and fundamental zoning character. Fireballs to keep YOU busy jumping and blocking. Difference between Bison and the rest of the character is that whil Ryu controls his corner of the screen on the ground, you can control the aerial corner of your screen with Devil's Reverse to get closer to Ryu. Devil's Reverse is still good move to somewhat spam from long range but watch out for being too predictable because fireballs can be thrown to hit you on your landing zone. It's more recommending that you just use it here and there to just give Ryu some doubt to throw a fireball. Not just dodging fireballs from the long range, but most Ryu's basical game plan is fireball and uppercut anything that jumps in. Know the range at where uppercuts will hit and where you can jump over fireballs without penalty. Assess the Ryu players fireball game and see how often he throws fireballs, how often he throws out empty jabs and shorts to try and fake you out. A lot of people have a pattern they draw out so their fireballs aren't predictable.
If you can predict fireballs, you can get in really good with a jump in combo to deal some good damage and a TON of Bison's highest damage combos are off jump in j.HP.
Jumping Fierce/HP has a close place in many Bison's hearts, it's one of those great normals in the game that have a lot more than meets the eye to it. Refer to the Hit box thread and acquaint yourself with the size of the attack's damage and vulnerable properties. Not only is jumping fierce a good combo starter but also a great bait for uppercuts in the front and ambiguous cross up.
Ryu's fireball zoning game will probably end when you close into mid-range, this is where s.MK and s.HK are really useful in interrupting Ryu and playing the footsie game. Ryu's furthest poke at mid-range is c.MK, and more than enough they'll follow up with a hadouken cancel whether the c.MK hits or blocks. If the c.MK is blocked, half the time they'll not fireball or they will fireball; either way, the blocked c.MK doesn't give that much block stun and if you decide to try to poke them a fireball usually ensues and hits you. Block those out and you're faced with more pokes or fireball attempts or an eager Ryu waiting for you to jump into his uppercut. Don't, stop and see what he tries to do, poke back with s.MK and just footsie them some more. Utilize ex scissor kick and know its max range to punish Ryu's fireball. Knockdowns are important.
If he's not throwing out fireballs, he's waiting for pokes and an uppercut opportunity. There's really no other option for both parties as it's a footsie and poke contest. Jumping is one of the worst things to do in this match ups. Light Knee Press to chip Ryu is also a good approach to match his c.MK xx Hadouken cancels. He has a safe solution, and you have a safe solution. You can beat out those c.MK xx Hadouken cancels with an EX-Knee Press or EX-Psycho Crusher, but like what was mentioned earlier, 50% of the time a hadouken follows, and 50% they don't hadouken because they are waiting for another attack. If you realize you're fighting a very c.MK xx Hadouken spammy Ryu, it may be okay to go for these.
Besides c.MK xx Hadoukens in mid to close range, Ryu has a fairly quick overhead with f+MP that can be caught; block it high and then low again as there may be a c.MK following right after. If he jumps you can easily dash under Ryu and kick him from behind if your reflexes are fast enough. While you're still in mid to close range
All Blocked Ryu crouching Roundhouse/HK are free LK Knee Press punishes. If you are very close to Ryu, you can also land c.MP s.MK link too I believe. It is also TECHNICALLY punishable by Ultra I but you'd have to input Ultra I(11f startup) in about 1~3f because blocked Ryu c.HK is -14f.
If and when you corner Ryu, he has very few options to retaliate, but they are powerful ones. Bison corners well with LK Knee Press. Blocked or not, they will take some hefty damage and they will add up. Space yourself out a bit closer to mid range and hit him down. Mix up your LK Knee Press with s.HK (close) to shut down jump escape attempts or s.MK (mid-to-close range) to poke them back into the corner and push yourself into a comfortable position since s.HK doesn't hit crouching characters as often in SSF4 (if he crouches in the corner). If you catch him standing, slide him and get back to your previous position to stalk the next move. LK Knee Press starts up in 10f so any normal moves that Ryu has that is starting up faster than 10f and can extend to the vulnerable hit box of LK Knee Press, it will interrupt the loops and mix up pressure.
His main escape from this position is air tatsu; which isn't entirely safe. If you have Ultra II, you can quickly chase down Ryu and Ultra him on his recovery. Take some time in training mode to practice the timing.
Air Game: Ryu has good options in the air against Bison. His j.MP has a lot of active frames to catch people but they likely won't throw it all the time unless you catch them trying to fish for a j.MP juggle into Ultra I or Ultra II. Air EX-Tatsu's are wild cards and they might toss it out randomly but if they whiff, you can hit them so hard on recovery with combos or Ultra punishes. Regular air Tatsu can hit or miss depending on which side the hit box is facing towards Bison.
Ultra Combo: Ultra I can hit off a few things. Shoryuken FADC, j.MP juggle, LP Shoryuken anti air, corner EX-Tatsu, EX-Hadouken link and SUPER link in some situations. The best ways around denying him opportunities to dish out this Ultra is to compromise some of Bison's moves since they are vulnerable to a lot of these setups (Shoryuken FADC, j.MP, AA LP Shoryuken). The primary one being Shoryuken FADC bring a 2f start to boot leaves Bison room for VERY little error. Badly used EX-Psycho Crushers, blocked Psycho Crushers, blocked MK/HK/EX Knee Press will give up opportunities for Ryu to utilize his meters for the damage. Luckily the damage is actually nerfed by a ton in SSF4 so if you are very healthy on the life lead, it may not always be detrimental if they are able to pull it off. Ultra II can hit off Shoryuken FADC, j.MP juggle and I don't know what else. The damage is abysmally low when it doesn't hit full animation, so be more careful about empty Devil's Reverse or whiffed Head Press because Ryu can get full Ultra II off those; and it hurts... a lot when it connects.
You wouldn't really do ex stomp out of blockstrings or between links because... its easy to see and just block. You would be better off mashing short into scissors or ex psycho crusher.
UC2 on fireballs are not preferred because its not guaranteed damage (because its a guess, not something you confirm like j.mp~mp), but yes if you can predict it well enough its cool
On July 04 2010 16:20 Odinsphere wrote: The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty.
I like it when people do the same thing over and over, because then it's easier to learn how to beat that thing, or at least alerts you to something you need to figure out how to counter.
Yes, yes and yes. They are wasting their time learning nothing so that u can, gotta love it.
On July 04 2010 16:20 Odinsphere wrote: I never had a main in SF4 but in SSF4 I main Juri. Its so fun to do her combos, I mean every character has a mix up for combos besides like thawk and zangief but she's so fun to use with either of her ultras. The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty. A ryu beat me with throws and charged focus attacks but I learned an important lesson: There is no level of petty moves that people won't resort to. Jumping around with jabs and throws is almost as effective as learning combos and actually blocking. I'm not the greatest at the game. But I don't think I'm the worst either.
Everything in this game has a counter -- in fact, almost everything has multiple counters that you can choose from. If you lose to something "petty", then figure out (or ask) how to beat it.
He beat you with throws? You can do anything except block and you'll get away from a throw. Backdash, jump back, or stand (not crouch!) and mash throw yourself to tech the throw.
Charged focus attacks? If they're charged halfway, absorb them with a focus and then hit him when he dashes in. If they're charged fully, backdash or EX pinwheel to avoid it. If they're poorly timed, you can neutral jump and come down with j.HK for a nice combo. Also, remember that Juri's divekick breaks focus attacks, and if you can aim them at the opponent's feet, you won't have to worry about eating damage if they're blocked.
Jumping around with jabs? If he jumps at you, cr.mp (if you're Juri). If he jumps away from you, just keep walking or dashing forward until he's in the corner (which is a big disadvantage for him). If he jumps neutral, get close enough then shoot him down with your own jumping attack. If he jumps over your head (where cr.mp won't hit him), jump back and shoot him down with j.LP or j.LK.
Combos and blocking are important, but they won't win you games on their own. Before you can get strategic, you need to learn the basic counters of the game. Right now, it's like you've got your macro skills down, but you don't know which units counter zealots.
(With more experience, you can actually learn to develop counters against your opponents on-the-fly without prior experience against their tactics. But that's more for tournament players.)
Thanks for the help man. And check it it was a throw..then he'd start charging so a full on focus attack would smash me. You're last little bit made me chuckle..especially since I'm so against toss..lol Thanks again for the input. Do you play on 360 or ps3?I play on ps3.
On July 04 2010 16:20 Odinsphere wrote: The only annoying thing in a fighting game(besides the lag), is like when your opponent does the same thing over and over again. I find that akin to camping in call of duty.
I like it when people do the same thing over and over, because then it's easier to learn how to beat that thing, or at least alerts you to something you need to figure out how to counter. I played a T. Hawk on XBL that just did his dive over and over again, and I was confused for the first round how to punish it since none of my normal anti-air moves were working. Then I realized I could just block and do a pinwheel and hit him every time EZ. Now I'll always remember that.
I'm new to the game, just got it a week ago. I'm also playing Juri (man it seems like everyone is maining Juri, but I rarely see her online). I appreciate the advice you guys gave on how best to practice! Right now I figure I should just grind out losses on XBL and practice combos in training mode... I feel like I need to get a better handle on the general strategy of the game before I try to learn how to execute long combos
Yea you're right but I'm not necessarily saying the same move over and over again. This ryu dude I was playing spammed hadokens at me(surprise surprise) and I needed to find a way to get to him without exposing myself to his deadly shoryuken(I call it a "deadly" shoryuken because it goes through ANYTHING in this game). So I tried doing Juri's flying kick(don't remember the name) across the screen. Sure enough I ate a shoryuken. So the first 2 of the 3 rounds he defeated me because I couldn't get around him. Then I did like a short flying kick so I land a little aways from him but avoid the hadoken. He shoryukens the air and I get a free combo in. I ended up winning and he kicked me out of the team games. lol And not alot of people play Juri on psn. I run into mostly Ryu's. And even if my BP is way more than theirs I'm always wary of the deadly shoryuken. lol lol
Did it not occur to you to try lp counter, focus, learning how to firekick/fireball, or trying out dive from certain distances/timings/height (tk maybe)?
EPT
But that's more for tournament players.)
