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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 17 2010 05:00 broz0rs wrote: Is there any fathomable explanation how Balrog and Honda moved to A? I could see the others in A tier, but not those two. damage nerf on DPs matters a lot for those two characters. Balrog basically dodged the nerf bat altogether, and i know next to nothing about honda. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12231 Posts
On May 17 2010 05:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: damage nerf on DPs matters a lot for those two characters. Balrog basically dodged the nerf bat altogether, and i know next to nothing about honda. Honda's ultra 2 is pretty godlike from what I hear. That alone probably boosted him. | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On May 10 2010 13:52 No.Doubt wrote: I bought ssf4 the other day and am so far loving it as a game that can be played with friends but the online aspect seems very lacking because of skill differentials considering I am pretty bad so i am looking to learn more general techniques and strategies for ssf4. I definitely feel this... Maybe I just have bad luck, but it seems like everyone online is way better than I am. Between this fact and the lag that often doesn't allow me to pull off the few combos that I DO know, online play has just been a rough experience for me... | ||
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Shatter
United States1401 Posts
On May 17 2010 05:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Honda was always pretty good but had bad match-ups against characters who got nerfed in SSF4, so it raised him up indirectly. His ultra 2 still isn't that great though since you have to be ridiculously close for it to land. damage nerf on DPs matters a lot for those two characters. Balrog basically dodged the nerf bat altogether, and i know next to nothing about honda. I think a lot of the new characters will change positions once people figure out how to use them and how to fight against them. I played Claw in SF4 and I'm going to stick with him. I like all his improvements and even though I tried to play Cody, I just feel too comfortable with Claw. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On May 17 2010 03:39 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: i seem to be the only guy who thinks Chun is top tier Chun doesn't dominate enough matchups to be top tier. She's solid but maybe not solid enough to really be at the top. Still really good though, and the universal meter gain buff helps her a lot (since her super is awesome). Abel is ridiculously good now that he doesn't get roundhouse looped forever. Still has damage/stun off mixup, no real nerfs anywhere, got an extra anti-air, has 2 useful ultras. He was already moving up the rankings in vanilla and hasn't gotten any worse in Super, not surprising to see people ranking him up there (early Japanese lists had him in top 4, he's still hovering up around there IIRC). Don't sleep on this guy, all of his terrible matchups got nerfed so he's in a similar situation to Honda. Dunno where this "Guy is a strong defensive character" idea is coming from given that he has a largely mediocre set of anti-airs (no real answer to crossups is a major problem) and pokes, and he doesn't really have a move to throw out there to keep you from advancing. He's not really a strong rushdown character either, but really he isn't a very strong character in general (other than having big damage near the corner). Rose and Seth have ridiculous zoning/turtling ability. That translates into some silly one-sided matchups and the ability to play most other matchups straight up and expect to be in a good position to win. That alone trumps El Fuerte's entire move set, and over Cody's "I'm probably going to go 5-5 with most of the cast." Actually having control of whether you can win or not against Honda/Blanka (and to a lesser extent Rufus) puts them over Juri and Cammy. Unless you have a good argument for why a bunch of characters that actually have to attack to win (Fuerte, Cammy) are better than two characters that don't have to attack to win, or why Cody is better than two characters who do what he does... but better. As for Juri, we'll see once someone good plays her and actually uses all of her good stuff. Right now there are bad players on the Juri bandwagon, mediocre players who have good tech but no fundamentals to back it up, and good players who don't have any tech. My gut reaction is that a character who has so much trouble with all of the good characters due to bad vitality, bad reversals, and a dependence on meter isn't exactly going to rock everybody's world. She's good enough to win but maybe not good enough to win consistently. But she's streaky enough to maybe win it all, I WANT TO BELIEVE. Honda does about as much damage as he used to do in a game where most characters do a lot less damage than they used to do. Sagat and Ryu are a lot more manageable now. Akuma is still a pain but he does less damage and his teleport is worse so it's a bit more manageable. Guile is still a pain. Claw is probably a slightly harder fight but he isn't really that great to begin with. Overall Honda is pretty much the same, very hard to beat him once he's sitting on a life lead and there are fewer nearly unwinnable matchups to keep him in check. Same situation as Abel, a very strong character who had a few terrible matchups that kept him from running wild, but now those matchups aren't as terrible; time to run wild! As for "what happened to Adon being the worst," that was like one guy's impression from playing the game pre-release... except that one guy was Justin Wong so of course a massive bandwagon jumped on that. It was pretty obvious that Adon wasn't going to be the worst character- having a legit DP that can FADC into ultra alone is enough to keep him from that spot, and having a really strong poke (far s.RH) and the fastest get-up speed in the game (have to massively adjust safe-jump/crossup timings after knockdowns, some setups will flat out not work on Adon) helps too. Fast dash, seems like good throw range or a kara-throw or something, both ultras are useful, etc. etc. Not the best character but he's mediocre at worst. Similar justification for why Dan wouldn't be the worst character, though honestly he isn't that good and I seriously doubt this "8-2 against Gief" notion. Need to see some actual reasoning for this that doesn't assume the Gief is just walking forward into stuff. Only reason I'd say Dan is the worst is because it's hard to say who is worse. Gen, maybe. | ||
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sLiniss
United States849 Posts
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Reno(TE)
United Kingdom434 Posts
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
On May 17 2010 09:55 JinMaikeul wrote: I definitely feel this... Maybe I just have bad luck, but it seems like everyone online is way better than I am. Between this fact and the lag that often doesn't allow me to pull off the few combos that I DO know, online play has just been a rough experience for me... everyone online just owns ;0 its kinda like sc2 :p | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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zizou21
United States3683 Posts
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Arhkangel
Argentina769 Posts
I understand the "everyone else got nerfed so now he's good" explanation but... Honda's weakness always has been how weak he is versus fireball and zoning characters. How is he overcoming them in SSF4 specially since they didn't really give him more tools and Guile has been improved and Juri was added to the cast? I think Adon will drop further down the tire list, shenanigans can only take you so far, Honda is going to drop down on the tier list, people just need to remember how to zone him out, and Guy is going to go up in the tier list, people will start to abuse his Reversal and wiffed Focus Attacks punishing options, the rest is going to stay were they are. But all in all I think that this is going to be one of those games like GGXX:^C were you don't really have tier list but more of a matchup-chart. Everyone has someone they are good versus and someone they suck against. I'm a Claw/Fei-Long player btw. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
On May 18 2010 02:53 Arhkangel wrote: I understand the "everyone else got nerfed so now he's good" explanation but... Honda's weakness always has been how weak he is versus fireball and zoning characters. How is he overcoming them in SSF4 specially since they didn't really give him more tools and Guile has been improved and Juri was added to the cast? I think Adon will drop further down the tire list, shenanigans can only take you so far, Honda is going to drop down on the tier list, people just need to remember how to zone him out, and Guy is going to go up in the tier list, people will start to abuse his Reversal and wiffed Focus Attacks punishing options, the rest is going to stay were they are. If you think just any fireball character beats Honda then I guess Ken destroys Honda too! Oh wait he doesn't. It was mostly Ryu/Sagat who were problematic for their fireball game. Akuma and Guile as well but those were more winnable since they couldn't make any mistakes. Headbutt goes over low Tiger Shots and Sagat does less damage, s.short isn't as ridiculous, etc. Like, eat a few high tigers, oh you went over a low tiger? Massive life lead for Honda. Ryu is still rough but not nearly as bad. You have to understand that Sagat/Ryu were practically unwinnable for Honda before, and now he can win in those matchups and he isn't any weaker against all of the matchups he dominated before. It's not that people FORGOT how to zone him. It's just that he gets way more chances to get in now, and the relative payoff is in his favor now. Guile is still a problem but the damage ratio is still incredibly skewed in Honda's favor, so a few good hits and you can just jump over sonic booms forever and lame Guile out. Akuma is problematic because you can't really stop him from option selecting you to death but that's what Akuma does to every character so it's not like it's a Honda exclusive problem. As for Adon and "shenanigans," shenanigans aren't what make him good. He has some good normals, a DP (into ultra), incredibly fast and low dash, a good super, 2 useful ultras. You could entirely skip his wall dives and such and he would still be good. Guy is going to abuse what? Nothing you said makes any sense in the context of Guy moving up the tiers. He can punish reversals/whiffed focus? So can the rest of the cast. What about this incredibly basic part of SF4 is Guy so good at that it will make him rise to new heights? | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
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Arhkangel
Argentina769 Posts
That's what I think will make Guy move higher in tier lists. Didn't know all cast had a reliable way to make focus attack wiff and punish ANY reversal on the spot. Also to my understanding Ken did rip Honda in ST. I just assumed it was the same in SF4. Can't a Sagat players just do kick fireballs in his combos and keep Honda zoned out just like before? And Adon is shenanigans just like Blanka is. If you know the matchup, he is a lot easier to deal with. Then again I'm not saying he's trash, just that he might move a couple of slots down. If you can't see that then let's just wait and see. | ||
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MCMcEmcee
United States1609 Posts
Yes the entire cast has safe jump setups that don't cost bar for a dumb gimmick. Especially off sweep/throw and other such untechable knockdowns. Juri sweep, activate U1, jump straight up, fall down with safe jump RH, if they DP'd you win the round, if they don't you get free U1 pressure/mixup. Akuma forward throw, dash dash forward demon flip into immediate dive kick, if they DP they get stuffed and you get to do a big combo, if they didn't you get pressure. Etc. etc., there are a ton of safe jump setups that are way more applicable and way more useful than Guy doing EX Izuna Drop and getting punished if they don't DP. Have fun trying that setup on Akuma and eating a free demon. Or any character can get up and block, watch you whiff EX izuna drop, punish your landing recovery. Looks like he hangs there long enough to get hit by wakeup punch lariat or wakeup EX dash upper as well. Doesn't stop El Fuerte EX run back. Guy is definitely moving up the tier list with that! The run slide thing is cool. Too bad (EX) shoulder is a more reliable option that breaks armor and does like 200 damage without having to wait to see someone hold focus (and doesn't lose to them just holding focus a bit longer and then hitting you during your recovery). Blanka isn't all shenanigans, he is also one of the lamest turtle characters in SF4. That's why Blanka destroys so many bad characters and does really well against a lot of good characters. Similarly, Adon isn't looking good because of shenanigans, those have already been figured out and he's still solid. He's good because of pokes, DP, and mobility. Reliable way to combo ultra doesn't hurt, good super doesn't hurt, having a few tricks up his sleeve doesn't hurt. If you can't see that, then let's just wait and see. | ||
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TieN.nS)
United States2131 Posts
On May 18 2010 01:43 Athos wrote: Do they make left handed arcade sticks? I tried using one the other day and the only way I was comfortable playing was using my right hand (dominant) on the stick and my left hand for buttons. I think I'm so used to starcraft where the mouse controls movements and you input commands with the left hand. you can play cloth-handed | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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sung_moon
United States10110 Posts
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