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United States22883 Posts
On May 16 2010 05:10 Ace wrote:See, it's stuff like reading Jonn Hollinger's bullshit on ESPN that makes me wonder how do people listen to these guys. Wtf is this? Show nested quote +
As good as Rondo has been in the first two rounds, Nelson has been even better. And unlike Rondo's previous opponents, Nelson has the foot speed to stay near him on defense and prevent him from running the offense from inside the 3-point line.
This is the same crew that said Nelson deserved to be an All-Star 2 years ago over Rondo when you know, Boston won the chip. Of course, Abbot chimes in with ridiculous PER arguments (another reason PER is just TERRIBLE in the playoffs - quality of opponents) Show nested quote +
Rajon Rondo and Garnett are about as good as any big-little combination in these playoffs, and they've played better competition than the Magic have. But the production has really favored the Orlando players, thanks to Jameer Nelson's amazing play. Even though a lot of Howard's contributions have been in defense, the two Magic players are both in the league's top 20 in playoff PER. Nelson's an amazing fourth, and Howard's 14th. Rondo is 17th and Garnett is 31st.
So....Boston just had the toughest path of any team to the Conference Finals while Orlando had the easiest and we're calling Jameer Nelson + Howard better than Rondo+Garnett? The same Rondo who just outplayed the 2-time league MVP in a series and the same KG that just abused everyone the Cavs threw at him? Gotta love ESPN some times. That's ridiculous. I was on board with Jameer back then as a 3pt threat before he got injured, and because Rondo was mostly a defensive specialist, but he turned into a completely different player a year ago. Right now, I'd be hard pressed not to give playoff MVP to Rondo.
I don't know how the D12 matchup is going to turn out, but I think it's clear Boston has an advantage at PG.
Ace, you should be happy that they all picked Orlando to win the series. That's a good sign for the C's.
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Well kinda. I think they all picked Orlando to 4-1, 4-2 or even sweep Boston last year without KG so I'm hoping they are wrong again. Thing is it's just amazing the arguments these guys use to support their "expertise" in the face of everything going on in the playoffs. If the Lakers lose to the Suns watch an article about "I told you Steve Nash had the highest PER in 3rd Quarters" pop up. Lol these guys are ridiculous at times.
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yea hollinger is funny ;;
by the way, the NBA scheduling is so stupid... you have Boston vs Orlando who is playing Sunday, just 2 days after Boston finished up Clevland. Meanwhile you have Lakers-Suns playing Monday even though they've both been twiddling their thumbs for a week.
wadafax?
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It's kinda hard to decide whether I want the rematch between the lakers and Orlando of last year or the celts vs lakers of the previous where Kobe can actually get his revenge. Shits intense
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I honestly think if Orlando plays the Lakers in the finals again they'll lose just as bad as last year. Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter won't make a difference in the world vs the line up the Lakers have. It pretty much rests on Orlando's bench and Dwight Howard's developing offense to win that series.
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On May 16 2010 05:58 Ace wrote:
I honestly think if Orlando plays the Lakers in the finals again they'll lose just as bad as last year. Jameer Nelson and Vince Carter won't make a difference in the world vs the line up the Lakers have. It pretty much rests on Orlando's bench and Dwight Howard's developing offense to win that series.
AKA I have learned to not get stripped by Fisher while I am standing under the rim.
Rather see the Celtics against Lakers than the Magic.
And pretty sure the schedule was set way ahead of time...also if the ECF's start first, they also finish first (provided same number of games gets played).
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On May 16 2010 04:57 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 04:06 Servolisk wrote:
While I think Mike Brown did a bad job in a few things like rotation this year, in the past I think he has done a good job. Like when Cleveland beat a favored Detroit team and went to the NBA finals. He made better adjustments in that series than Flip Saunders did. Completely disagreed. Flip generally made decent adjustments, but that was simply the series that the Pistons quit on him. There was nothing he could do to make Rasheed place help defense when Lebron got past Tayshaun. He tried multiple defenders on him (Rip being the most successful, if I recall) but the help defense wasn't there because the team had checked out. It took a few years for the Cavs to quit on Mike Brown.
Ah, it is hard to remember in too much detail, but I found his line ups frustratingly unchangable. It's like he played the same line up if it was a preseason game or a playoff game. One thing I can remember was McDyess was playing very very well in games 5 and 6 and would get under 15 minutes.
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I just noticed tomorrow is the EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS!!!!! im so hyped!!!
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On May 16 2010 05:42 Xeris wrote:
yea hollinger is funny ;;
by the way, the NBA scheduling is so stupid... you have Boston vs Orlando who is playing Sunday, just 2 days after Boston finished up Clevland. Meanwhile you have Lakers-Suns playing Monday even though they've both been twiddling their thumbs for a week.
wadafax?
Maybe kobe's still nursing those injuries. Just to make sure 
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If LeBron ever want to win a ring, he needs to leave Cleveland.
That or they need some serious upgrades to their team. The current roster will NEVER get it done.
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they've been upgrading for 4 years now. he just simply needs to leave. they can't upgrade more than they already have, their cap space is tied up in useless pieces that they thought would save them (jamison, etc)
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On May 16 2010 11:51 RowdierBob wrote:
If LeBron ever want to win a ring, he needs to leave Cleveland.
That or they need some serious upgrades to their team. The current roster will NEVER get it done.
Agreed. After reading an article about Lebron James and his supposed dedication to Cleveland, I think he should stay in Cleveland from a "loyal" standpoint. The article mentioned that if Lebron James were to go to college and didn't go straight to the NBA, Lebron said he would have attended a Akron, Cleveland College. And that he knows the frustration Cleveland sports fan feel--not ever winning a Championship of any sorts.
If you think about all the free agents and the teams that are frontrunners in line for Lebron, none of the teams have a good supporting cast. Not even Cleveland because their cast just tanks in the postseason. None of them can perform in pressure situations in the postseason. And teams like the NYC Knicks haven't even been in the playoffs so their cast haven't even been tested!
With that said, if the Knicks [because they have the most cleared salary cap space], with their money can get Lebron and another free agent and make a crucial trade I think things would turn out better than if Lebron would stay with Cleveland. To be honest, I rather trust David Lee than any of Cleveland's roster [except for Lebron].
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Mark Jackson (I think) made a really good point about the sudden change in attitude for the Cavs and Lebron when the going got tough. They went from a happy/cocky swagger team to the weight of the world on their shoulders sulkiness team and their play shows as much. Can't have that, it's like a massive loss of identity for a team who's best player is such sociable and loose person.
Honestly, Lebron is at the point where a solid coach will benefit him far more than any free agent would. Go to Chicago and forever live in MJ's shadow of 6 championships (easily 7 if he didn't do baseball)? I don't see it, not for someone like Lebron who wants his legacy towering somewhere that doesn't already have an icon of MJ's stature. My guess is NY where he can get that world wide exposure and offensive freedom in Mike's system. Either way, I think Lebron is going to pull a Wilt and not get a ring till much later in his career.
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I'm starting to think Lebron's game and the system he plays in is at fault for the Cavs loss. I was going back looking at the game and Mo Williams actually didn't do that much wrong offensively.
Mo Williams is REALLY good. Scarily good. I forgot how good he was in Milwaukee. Unfortunately the Cavs system doesn't let Mo Williams be a point guard and Lebron doesn't play off the ball (another notch in my D.Wade>>>>>Lebron argument).
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Also, why is no one mentioning the Clips as a possible for LeBron?
I think they have cap space, no? They could make a pretty good fit for LBJ and it would make his rivalry with Kobe 10x more interesting.
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On May 16 2010 15:13 RowdierBob wrote:
Also, why is no one mentioning the Clips as a possible for LeBron?
I think they have cap space, no? They could make a pretty good fit for LBJ and it would make his rivalry with Kobe 10x more interesting.
Just because a team has cap space doesn't mean they get the free agents. Think LeBron would dare play for the Clippers? You've got to be kidding me. As soon as he signs with the Clippers he'll tear his ACLs by walking down the stairs of his house. He'll probably sprain his wrist just by signing the contract. He'd never go to a team with that shitty of a reputation.
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and um that shitty of a roster, they aren't even in playoff contention.
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On May 16 2010 14:04 Ace wrote:
I'm starting to think Lebron's game and the system he plays in is at fault for the Cavs loss. I was going back looking at the game and Mo Williams actually didn't do that much wrong offensively.
It's not really that Mo Williams did anything WRONG - it's just that his shot wasn't falling, for whatever reason. It isn't as if he suddenly wasn't hitting the right spots or coming off curls the wrong way, he just didn't make his shots.
The problem with LeBron is that he dominates all facets of the team's offense. He plays the point more than their point guards, he is responsible for initiating the offense. Here are Clevland's plays:
- LeBron takes the ball up, gives it low or on the block to Shaq, Varajao, Big Z for them to either kick back out to a shooter or LeBron, or post up.
- LeBron penetrates and kicks it out to a shooter; Mo, Delonte, Parker..
- LeBron works the ball to the elbows and creates
- LeBron holds the ball at the top of the key while his teammates clear the lane
- LeBron holds the ball free throw line extended while his teammates set high screen/rolls
This pretty much sums up the Cavs offense. They have a few sets that don't involve LeBron, but those are once in a blue moon occurrences. Theres an inherent problem when one player dominates every facet of the offense. Even Kobe doesn't dominate the offense the same way as LeBron does. Literally the entire Cavs offense hinges on LeBron doing something to get himself a shot or someone else a shot. They in a sense shortchange Delonte West and Mo Williams, who are both really good at running an offense. When the offense runs through one player, the teammates get taken out of the game, so when (like in the playoffs) teams tighten up defensively and make LeBron REALLY work to get going, he's gonna have bad games, and when he has bad games, his teammates are already thrown off and don't play well.
Look at Kobe - when he tries to dominate the offense that much, his teammates invariably play worse. Sometimes it is necessary, and Kobe (as well as LeBron) have the ability to totally take over a game if they need to; but if you compare with the Lakers offense. Kobe isn't the primary point guard for the team. Fisher, Odom, Brown, and Kobe all take the ball up the floor - Kobe is really a 3rd option at initiating the offense except for late game situations. This frees up a lot of energy that Kobe would be spending working the ball up the court. Further, this year Kobe's game has gone down into the post, so he really just seals off his defender and waits for Fisher to get him the ball in the post, and then he creates from there. The Lakers offense has so many different dimensions to it than the Cavs offense. Why?
Some might say; "well the Lakers have Pau, Bynum, etc, so they can run the offense through multiple people." These people seem to ignore the fact that Clevland has a legit supporting cast. Antawn Jamison is a 20-10 player - he's scored 50+ points on multiple occasions, he is a proven contributor. Mo Williams is an all-star caliber player, and Shaq is still a very viable low-post option. That team has 4 all-star level players on it, more than almost every team. You also have Varajao and Hickson who were built to play pick-and-roll offense, Anthony Parker and Delonte West who are great spot-up shooters, and Jamario Moon who is a really good slasher. That team can run so many different styles, but they don't. Here's what they could do:
- LeBron, West, Moon, Hickson, Varajao ... this team is big and fast and can play Suns style uptempo ball. Think about Delonte West running high screen and rolls with LeBron or Hickson. Think about getting Moon in the corner and having him slash to the basket, draw defenders and create a shot - then you have Varajao (one of the best offensive rebounders in basketball) and Hickson (freakishly athletic) to clean up the misses.
- Shaq, Varajao, Williams, LeBron, Parker ... throw it to Shaq in the post, he draws defenders, kick it to Mo or Parker for 3's. Screen-rolls with Varajao, run curls with Mo Williams or Parker
Those are two additional styles that Clevland has the capability of playing REALLY well, and neither of those even factored in Jamison. Jamison+Mo Williams could play a Stockton/Malone type role (not as well obviously). But the point is, they RARELY did any of that. They stuck with the same game plan of running EVERYTHING through LeBron, so much so that when he started having bad games, nobody else was in a rhythm and they got owned.
A huge part of that flaw was Mike Brown, unfortunately. That team had all the talent on paper to win a ring for two years now, and fell short each time.
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On May 16 2010 15:34 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 14:04 Ace wrote:
I'm starting to think Lebron's game and the system he plays in is at fault for the Cavs loss. I was going back looking at the game and Mo Williams actually didn't do that much wrong offensively.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's not really that Mo Williams did anything WRONG - it's just that his shot wasn't falling, for whatever reason. It isn't as if he suddenly wasn't hitting the right spots or coming off curls the wrong way, he just didn't make his shots.
The problem with LeBron is that he dominates all facets of the team's offense. He plays the point more than their point guards, he is responsible for initiating the offense. Here are Clevland's plays:
- LeBron takes the ball up, gives it low or on the block to Shaq, Varajao, Big Z for them to either kick back out to a shooter or LeBron, or post up.
- LeBron penetrates and kicks it out to a shooter; Mo, Delonte, Parker..
- LeBron works the ball to the elbows and creates
- LeBron holds the ball at the top of the key while his teammates clear the lane
- LeBron holds the ball free throw line extended while his teammates set high screen/rolls
This pretty much sums up the Cavs offense. They have a few sets that don't involve LeBron, but those are once in a blue moon occurrences. Theres an inherent problem when one player dominates every facet of the offense. Even Kobe doesn't dominate the offense the same way as LeBron does. Literally the entire Cavs offense hinges on LeBron doing something to get himself a shot or someone else a shot. They in a sense shortchange Delonte West and Mo Williams, who are both really good at running an offense. When the offense runs through one player, the teammates get taken out of the game, so when (like in the playoffs) teams tighten up defensively and make LeBron REALLY work to get going, he's gonna have bad games, and when he has bad games, his teammates are already thrown off and don't play well.
Look at Kobe - when he tries to dominate the offense that much, his teammates invariably play worse. Sometimes it is necessary, and Kobe (as well as LeBron) have the ability to totally take over a game if they need to; but if you compare with the Lakers offense. Kobe isn't the primary point guard for the team. Fisher, Odom, Brown, and Kobe all take the ball up the floor - Kobe is really a 3rd option at initiating the offense except for late game situations. This frees up a lot of energy that Kobe would be spending working the ball up the court. Further, this year Kobe's game has gone down into the post, so he really just seals off his defender and waits for Fisher to get him the ball in the post, and then he creates from there. The Lakers offense has so many different dimensions to it than the Cavs offense. Why?
Some might say; "well the Lakers have Pau, Bynum, etc, so they can run the offense through multiple people." These people seem to ignore the fact that Clevland has a legit supporting cast. Antawn Jamison is a 20-10 player - he's scored 50+ points on multiple occasions, he is a proven contributor. Mo Williams is an all-star caliber player, and Shaq is still a very viable low-post option. That team has 4 all-star level players on it, more than almost every team. You also have Varajao and Hickson who were built to play pick-and-roll offense, Anthony Parker and Delonte West who are great spot-up shooters, and Jamario Moon who is a really good slasher. That team can run so many different styles, but they don't. Here's what they could do:
- LeBron, West, Moon, Hickson, Varajao ... this team is big and fast and can play Suns style uptempo ball. Think about Delonte West running high screen and rolls with LeBron or Hickson. Think about getting Moon in the corner and having him slash to the basket, draw defenders and create a shot - then you have Varajao (one of the best offensive rebounders in basketball) and Hickson (freakishly athletic) to clean up the misses.
- Shaq, Varajao, Williams, LeBron, Parker ... throw it to Shaq in the post, he draws defenders, kick it to Mo or Parker for 3's. Screen-rolls with Varajao, run curls with Mo Williams or Parker
Those are two additional styles that Clevland has the capability of playing REALLY well, and neither of those even factored in Jamison. Jamison+Mo Williams could play a Stockton/Malone type role (not as well obviously). But the point is, they RARELY did any of that. They stuck with the same game plan of running EVERYTHING through LeBron, so much so that when he started having bad games, nobody else was in a rhythm and they got owned.
A huge part of that flaw was Mike Brown, unfortunately. That team had all the talent on paper to win a ring for two years now, and fell short each time.
for the first time i actually agree with you.
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LeBron James is a great player. That being said, his talent is about the only good thing you can say about the guy. He may be able to lead his team to a good record in the regular season but he clearly lacks the play-off experience to get the cavs anywhere. Jame's impatience and lack of self-examination are certainly not going to help him win any championships. You can switch around the players he plays with all you want but in the end it's not them that's the problem, He just isn't yet ready mentally. He starts to break down in later games of the series like we saw in game 5 against the Celtics. When the leader starts to give up it makes it really easy for the rest of the team to follow suit. People are blaming Mike Brown for the cav's terrible post-season play and it's just stupid. Mike Brown's style of play got them to #1 in regular season! There is nothing "Wrong" with this team, give them a couple more years and they'll be ready. LeBron needs to be patient. He needs experience, not a new ball club.
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EPT
