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Wow Xeris you pretty much summed up a lot of what I would have wrote about the problem with the Cavs offense. 1 player dominating the ball ends up as a problem especially if you have the tools to avoid this ala a really good point guard.
Looking at the Celtics offense you see lots of screens and picks. Different line ups running different sets: If it's the starting 5 you usually see Rondo/KG pick pop action with Ray Allen running off screens. Pierce is sitting in a corner or on the block. If the screens don't free Ray Allen, Pierce sometimes comes out and gets the ball from Rondo and Rondo goes off and re-initiates from the other side. This is just ONE type of set they run.
Lakers: oh boy. Literally anything that can be done - they do it. I like to call the Lakers the the Punisher Offense - once the ball goes into the post you are fucked. Gasol can pass and this pretty much means when Kobe or if Phil Jackson's luck is going right Artest cuts/slashes you have a major problem. This of course ignores the action before the eventual pass to the post where you'll have Fisher or Odom bringing the ball up looking to get something done. Mind you Kobe isn't even always going to touch the ball and they obliterate teams.
Orlando: Over time they've gotten better. I still think the offense needs work and should have more Rashard Lewis action (like Dallas does for Dirk) instead of relying on Jameer Nelson to drive and kick or Vince Carter's isos. However when they DO play their pass the rock heavy style with rotating shooters (Lewis stays in a corner, Vince rotates around, Jameer Nelson passes into Dwight who's doubled/cheated on and next thing you know Matt Barnes is literally no where to be found and ends up at a 3 point line) they are a nightmare.
Phoenix: Do I even need to go into detail? Every version of the pick and roll that can be run - they do it.
Pretty much the 4 remaining teams all use every player to maximize their shot selection. There is no 1 player dominating the offense except for Phoenix (which can be an issue). Cleveland would do well to learn from the other teams - let your Point Guard be a point guard. If anything just copy Boston and LA - Rondo and Pierce both set up the offense, and sometimes even Ray Allen brings the ball up. Likewise LA does this with Fisher and Odom, and sometimes Kobe. Kobe will of course option for an iso and the defense isn't always ready. They don't know it's coming.
The flip side to this is on defense teams that have had to stop 1 man armies have learned a valuable lesson: sometimes double teaming is bad. Let 1 exceptional defender play the dominant offensive weapon all game (Artest) and live with the results. In a 7 game series the defense CAN win out and watch 1 man try to do it all and stay home on his team. If that 1 option gets defeated the offense has to constantly reset itself and keep trying new possessions. If they aren't used to playing outside of this comfort zone they will get crushed. Mike Brown, the GMs - all of them need to take a cue from LA and Stan Van Gundy's offensive scheming.
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On May 16 2010 16:47 PhoenixM1 wrote:
LeBron James is a great player. That being said, his talent is about the only good thing you can say about the guy. He may be able to lead his team to a good record in the regular season but he clearly lacks the play-off experience to get the cavs anywhere. Jame's impatience and lack of self-examination are certainly not going to help him win any championships. You can switch around the players he plays with all you want but in the end it's not them that's the problem, He just isn't yet ready mentally. He starts to break down in later games of the series like we saw in game 5 against the Celtics. When the leader starts to give up it makes it really easy for the rest of the team to follow suit. People are blaming Mike Brown for the cav's terrible post-season play and it's just stupid. Mike Brown's style of play got them to #1 in regular season! There is nothing "Wrong" with this team, give them a couple more years and they'll be ready. LeBron needs to be patient. He needs experience, not a new ball club.
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Mike Brown certainly is to blame for a lot of what happened offensively. I mean yes the Celtics are a great defense but why are you FEEDING them line-ups they will destroy? When that Hickson-Varajeo-Lebron lineup was in the game they went NUTS.
Never saw Hickson ever again.
I've always said to win the NBA championship you need 3 things: At least 2 super star level athletes with a decent 3rd potion, a good set of role players+bench, and great coaching/front office/GM work. I think the Cavs fulfilled 2 of those 3. Without great coaching it's DAMN hard to win the NBA title. Part of the reason the NBA has these dynasties is because the coaches stick with the same team and just destroy everyone else on their path to the chip. #1 record in the NBA doesn't mean anything when you have to match wits in playoff series vs the other guy for at least 4 games. Doc Rivers out coached Mike Brown, just like last year how SVG out coached him. He's a decent coach, great on defensive calls most of the time but on offense it's just wtf is going on with him.
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On May 16 2010 11:51 RowdierBob wrote:
If LeBron ever want to win a ring, he needs to leave Cleveland.
That or they need some serious upgrades to their team. The current roster will NEVER get it done.
This is exactly what I was talking about. Cleveland is not a bad team. . .I don't know where people get this thought in their head that Cleveland is just full of untalented players that LeBron carries around with him in regular season. Sure you can say that almost all of the offensive plays revolve around Lebron, and why the hell wouldn't they? When you have a player that skilled on the floor there's absolutely no reason to not work the ball around him. Even if he isn't the guy taking the shot every time he demands a lot of defensive attention and that makes him a great player to run plays off of. The Cav's lost out to the Celtics. . .there's no shame in this at all, the Celtics are an incredibly stacked team with a lot of talent. The Cav's just need to get out there and play the Lakers more often, maybe some of the Kobe experience will rub off on LeBron and he will start to figure out how to win in the post-season. =P
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????
Mike Brown certainly is to blame for a lot of what happened offensively. I mean yes the Celtics are a great defense but why are you FEEDING them line-ups they will destroy? When that Hickson-Varajeo-Lebron lineup was in the game they went NUTS.
Never saw Hickson ever again.
I've always said to win the NBA championship you need 3 things: At least 2 super star level athletes with a decent 3rd potion, a good set of role players+bench, and great coaching/front office/GM work. I think the Cavs fulfilled 2 of those 3. Without great coaching it's DAMN hard to win the NBA title. Part of the reason the NBA has these dynasties is because the coaches stick with the same team and just destroy everyone else on their path to the chip. #1 record in the NBA doesn't mean anything when you have to match wits in playoff series vs the other guy for at least 4 games. Doc Rivers out coached Mike Brown, just like last year how SVG out coached him. He's a decent coach, great on defensive calls most of the time but on offense it's just wtf is going on with him.
Mike Brown isn't really that bad of a coach. He's not always dead on the mark offensively but most of the time he's pretty good. Trying to coach against a squad like the Celtics have is no easy feat to accomplish. Mike Brown does need to improve his coaching ability, he's no Pat Riley or Phil Jackson, but there's really no alternative for LeBron at this point. If he does go free-agent and gets picked up by the Bulls or some other team (God please not the knicks) he wont be in a better position to take on the playoffs than he is in now. Maybe we'll see some act of god and he'll get picked up by the Lakers. . .that would be legendary. Not going to happen though.
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Well I too think he SHOULD stay with the Cavs. Looking around unless Wade/Bosh do something crazy he doesn't have a better shot. Even thinking heavily about Chicago he'd still be in the East and still have to face Boston or Orlando on the way to the title. Noah + Rose aren't ready YET for that kind of trip and I don't know how much longer Lebron wants to wait for his 1st ring.
Maybe the Cavs will keep Mike Brown around and pair him with better offensive assistants. Just because you have the "best player in the game" doesn't mean you run your offense entirely through him. They've tried this for the last 4 years and have not gotten any closer to the chip. They MUST change this style.
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I don't see any other team that can both afford Lebron and have enough depth to attract him next year to their team unless we see another one of those crazy three way trades where Lebron + 2 other superstars ended up in the same team. What happened to the Celtics back then was unique.
It is getting tiresome hearing the usual "is this year is Lebron's year?!" tirade.
Maybe they will fire Mike Brown, but then again who is available out there that is good enough to replace him and will make Lebron excited enough stay?
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United States22883 Posts
I don't think it began that way. The Cavs offense has always been different in the playoffs and the regular season. They open it up to the rest of the shooters when the shots are falling, but sometime around 2-3 years ago, they realized that when they can't make shots (which inevitably happens as defenses tighten up on them), handing the ball the Lebron was their best option. I don't know if it's as true today (the rest of the Cavs still couldn't buy a shot in that second half) but I think it was a few seasons ago when it started to happen.
I also think you guys might be overstating the cast around him. Mo Williams was never a true PG. They got him as another scoring threat, so simply letting the offense run through him doesn't necessarily do anything besides take Lebron out of the offense. Between him and Lebron running sets at the top of the key, Lebron is going to make the better decision and often has more options available. When he does get the ball, it should be as an alternate source to cause a disruption with his quickness. The issue isn't that they need let Mo be a PG, because he's not one and they're in trouble when he plays that role. The issue is that Lebron needs to learn to be one and they need someone to install a reliable offense that's more than just drives and kick outs. Lebron might have the best combination of height, vision and passing in the game, but he doesn't understand the tempo of the game like a Chauncey or Nash and even if he did, I don't think he'd be allowed to speed it up as much as he should. I am perfectly fine with Lebron as a point forward, because I do think he's the best option the Cavs have handling the ball, but he needs to be instructed on the rest of the position. The slow methodical crap is meant for Larry Brown's offenses where multiple shooters can get high % looks. The Cavs don't have consistent shooters but they have two of the best slashers available.
Other people probably don't see it that way, but I think Mo is better off in the role of a Ginobli, not as a 6th man though.
I think it's more and more apparent that Mike Brown is at his best as an assistant. Not understanding the offense is a liability because of the substitution patterns like we already mentioned (plus he's directly responsible for hiring the assisstants that do run the shitty offense), but I don't think his defensive adjustments are very good either. SVG last year and Doc Rivers this year consistently could get better matchups on the floor that would cause break downs. It's obvious he did a very good job to coach them up to playing defense when he did take over, but it seems like most of that was behind the scenes, and not game time calls.
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On May 16 2010 16:56 Ace wrote:
I've always said to win the NBA championship you need 3 things: At least 2 super star level athletes with a decent 3rd potion, a good set of role players+bench, and great coaching/front office/GM work.
An interesting assertion.
2 super star level athletes: how about 2005, 2007 spurs, 2004 pistons, the rockets, and possibly some teams before 1980.
It's really hard to derive much about nba champions because 1980-1998 is a messed up sample of mostly jordan and lakers/celtics.
Are Rudy Tomjanovich and Doc Rivers great coaches? Rudy's a good coach, but say he'd been coaching another team during those years, would you be considering him with Phil Jackson and Popovich? People say Doc Rivers is a great coach because the Celtics won, and they certainly didn't in the years before.
Does Miami have a great front office?
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Of all those I'd say 2004 Pistons was the only anomaly. Those Spurs teams were definitely loaded with talent, and Parker was always the second superstar with Ginobli as 2.1
1980s is kinda skewed because some of those LA/Boston teams had ridiculous all stars that wouldn't be allowed to assemble under normal conditions in today's league 
Doc Rivers I'd say is damn good - certainly way above average. The years the Celtics weren't winning he was still making even the worst guys into decent players. He's no Larry Brown but then again the only person who can turn a bad roster into gold besides him may be Hubie Brown. Rudy I don't know. I really don't remember too much about his coaching style to be honest.
Miami's front office is actually not bad at all. They got Shaq, won a chip. D-Wade got hurt, they tanked and hit rebuild mode. Sadly Michael Beasley didn't work out and they got screwed. They haven't done any ridiculous moves on the level of Isaiah Thomas yet.
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United States22883 Posts
I don't know that the Spurs had true superstars, but they definitely had 1 superstar + 2 players that could be an allstar on any given night, plus they had better role players than any team since the Hakeem's Rockets.
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You wouldn't rate Duncan/Robinson as superstars?
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United States22883 Posts
What? Duncan was the 1 superstar. Robinson wasn't at that point in his career. That season doesn't really count anyways. It's the Duncan + Parker/Ginobli teams we're talking about.
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That Cavs team had the talent to where they should been able to make it to the finals and compete. It really did come down to their offensive sets and execution. All the people ripping on Jamison, you know he is a talented player. Maybe not big enough for a 4 and not quite athletic enough for the 3, but he's a good all around ball player. Good rebounding and good shooting across the floor. Mo can shoot from anywhere, but his defense isn't really worth a shit. I really don't even know why they brought in Shaq seemed like a waste at the time and ended up being a waste at the end. He's too old and too slow. Mo was an All Star last year and Jamison is a two time all-star. So, really I'm not sure if that point is valid. I think it's really the offensive execution whoever pointed that out before. I think Mike Brown became much to lax in his offensive game plan with LeBron just doing everything.
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Not so much lax but rather fixated. Either way, he needs to be fired, they have regressed each of the years since reaching the Finals.
Also, playoffs are very different from the regular season, teams don't make that many or major adjustments during the regular season. In the playoffs, they certainly will. Mike Brown's regular season resume in that sense is a bit misleading.
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On May 16 2010 20:52 Ace wrote:Of all those I'd say 2004 Pistons was the only anomaly. Those Spurs teams were definitely loaded with talent, and Parker was always the second superstar with Ginobli as 2.1 1980s is kinda skewed because some of those LA/Boston teams had ridiculous all stars that wouldn't be allowed to assemble under normal conditions in today's league Doc Rivers I'd say is damn good - certainly way above average. The years the Celtics weren't winning he was still making even the worst guys into decent players. He's no Larry Brown but then again the only person who can turn a bad roster into gold besides him may be Hubie Brown. Rudy I don't know. I really don't remember too much about his coaching style to be honest. Miami's front office is actually not bad at all. They got Shaq, won a chip. D-Wade got hurt, they tanked and hit rebuild mode. Sadly Michael Beasley didn't work out and they got screwed. They haven't done any ridiculous moves on the level of Isaiah Thomas yet.
I'm not a huge fan of Doc Rivers either :p
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Pretty much Xeris hates everything that isn't gold and purple.
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United States22883 Posts
On May 17 2010 03:37 tonight wrote:
Pretty much Xeris hates everything that isn't gold and purple.
Such a fucking Persian.
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Does anyone like any Celtic players with the exception of Ray Allen and Rondo? Magic in 5
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United States22883 Posts
PLEASE REPLACE MARK JACKSON WITH DORRIS BURKE
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EPT
