EPTNBA Playoffs 2010 - Page 111
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On June 02 2010 12:36 Jibba wrote: You two are both vastly oversimplifying how to play point guards, and it's a little amusing. Obviously it depends on things like the individual players' quickness, dribbling and shooting ability, but it also matters how good their screens are and how good your team is at communication. Beyond that, inside/outside leg, which is their better hand, etc. There's plenty of times when you can play off someone and plenty when you can get on them. Since none of us have any experience guarding NBA point guards, who are all fast and can go both directions, I don't think personal experience really matters. I agree with trying to block some of his vision, but the danger in playing that close is that Boston sets the best (and arguably least legal) screens in the NBA, which in itself is a way to keep people from being that aggressive. I didn't watch enough of the Thunder-Lakers series to have an idea of what they did with Westbrook, and I have no idea what Rondo's tendencies or subtle strengths are (by that I mean which direction, where he likes to go from, how does he make his first step), so I can't really comment on what they should do. Lefnui needs to calm down though. o.o I love the Rucker Park challenge though. In a pick up, I can definitely see why you'd play up on most guards though. I'm curious, how the hell did a kid from Harlem grow up loving the Celtics? I'm not from Harlem I'm from Brooklyn ^_^ I never grew up loving the Celtics, I like KG/Allen/Pierce and eventually started liking Rondo. I have no allegiance to organizations only players. | ||
Klogon
MURICA15980 Posts
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matko5
Croatia385 Posts
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On the other hand, if you can react in time, you can jam them and control their driving angle. If you give them space, they're going to come at you faster, although since you'll be backing up you'll have more time to react and contest a bank shot or layup, but it'll be harder for all the help defenders behind you. They can also choose which side they want to go by. | ||
XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On June 02 2010 12:36 Jibba wrote: You two are both vastly oversimplifying how to play point guards, and it's a little amusing. Obviously it depends on things like the individual players' quickness, dribbling and shooting ability, but it also matters how good their screens are and how good your team is at communication. Beyond that, inside/outside leg, which is their better hand, etc. There's plenty of times when you can play off someone and plenty when you can get on them. Since none of us have any experience guarding NBA point guards, who are all fast and can go both directions, I don't think personal experience really matters. I agree with trying to block some of his vision, but the danger in playing that close is that Boston sets the best (and arguably least legal) screens in the NBA, which in itself is a way to keep people from being that aggressive. I didn't watch enough of the Thunder-Lakers series to have an idea of what they did with Westbrook, and I have no idea what Rondo's tendencies or subtle strengths are (by that I mean which direction, where he likes to go from, how does he make his first step), so I can't really comment on what they should do. Lefnui needs to calm down though. o.o I love the Rucker Park challenge though. In a pick up, I can definitely see why you'd play up on most guards though. I'm curious, how the hell did a kid from Harlem grow up loving the Celtics? The Lakers defended Westbrook the best when the put Kobe on him and dared him to shoot perimeter shots while walling off the paint. They've done the same thing to Rondo before in the past to some good effect. I don't see why anyone's talking about Fisher's defense on Rondo being a big deal, since it's obvious that the Lakers will either put Kobe on Rondo from the outset or switch him onto him as soon as Rondo starts blowing by Fish. Can't forget that one of the big reasons why Kobe guards Rondo is also because Fish is better at sticking to a guy like Ray. The Lakers are going to have to be careful about how much space they give Rondo because it was shown in the CLE series that too much space lets Rondo either calmly survey the court and set teammates up for easy buckets or build up enough speed so that his defender is basically in the position of a backpedaling defender in a fastbreak situation. This has been talked about by multiple analysts and experts, so I don't see why the concept of giving a guy like Rondo too much space is a bad idea is so hard to accept. P.S. Lefnui does indeed need to calm down. I'll have to dust off ye olde ban hammer if he starts up again. I should also point out that Ace needs to change his style of arguing as well because he was also overly antagonistic/confrontational and it's not a first time offense either. | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
On June 02 2010 11:58 Ace wrote: 2 people have already said they agree with me. That brings the total war count to 3-3. sup? No one has agreed with what you said and you have yet to support it. The onus is upon you because you're preaching an idea that goes against logic, common sense, intuition and all established strategy in basketball. If backing off of someone made it more likely that they could drive by you then it would be impossible to cover someone. On June 02 2010 12:36 Jibba wrote: You two are both vastly oversimplifying how to play point guards, and it's a little amusing. Obviously it depends on things like the individual players' quickness, dribbling and shooting ability, but it also matters how good their screens are and how good your team is at communication. Beyond that, inside/outside leg, which is their better hand, etc. There's plenty of times when you can play off someone and plenty when you can get on them. That's total nonsense. What I said is established fact within basketball, it's not an oversimplification at all. I said that playing back on someone does not make it more likely that they can blow by you. Very simple, very uncontroversial, I really don't see how you can have a problem with that. You simply went on to discuss other relevant matters, which are of course important as well. That doesn't mean that I oversimplified. Lefnui needs to calm down though. o.o I'm perfectly calm, always have been. You're making a misunderstanding that is common on forums. You're assuming that because I argue and mock a person's opinion that I must be foaming from the mouth. It's not the case. I guess most people only say "That guy's a fucking idiot" in an angry tone, but I say it calmly. And if you do think I'm too angry, then you shouldn't condescend me by saying that my opinion is "amusing" to you. Isn't that trolling? On June 02 2010 16:55 XaI)CyRiC wrote: P.S. Lefnui does indeed need to calm down. I'll have to dust off ye olde ban hammer if he starts up again. I should also point out that Ace needs to change his style of arguing as well because he was also overly antagonistic/confrontational and it's not a first time offense either. Threatening to ban me for no reason. Probably because I pointed out the fact that you misread what I said earlier. As I said earlier, I'm perfectly calm. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
It isn't as simple as play back and you'll defend him, giving someone like Rondo that kind of space is inviting of some kind of pass, shot (which he can hit because the defender will be backing up almost always and then it becomes a basket at the rim) or a foul. You give him room to a certain point and up until a certain point to the basket. Igotmyown has the right idea; its essentially a trade off, you take away one option partially (don't bother arguing this), the drive, while giving him the shot (that Rondo doesn't have), but also lanes and other possible offensive sets.But hey what do the NBA play off coaches know, since clearly by your logic then Rondo could be contained in a simple formulaic fashion. And Leftnui, your attitude isn't appreciated, you are not the end all to basketball knowledge and some players do not fit the "established" rules of basketball. Just because you aren't "foaming" doesn't mean you aren't noticeably perturbed. | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
On June 03 2010 00:54 Judicator wrote: Well-established fact in basketball? Like both Ace and Xal said, there are some players where you can't give him that much space. Rondo has made teams pay in the past for playing him that far back, he's shown that over and over again. The only thing that kept Rondo from doing that against Orlando as consistently was your DPOY Dwight Howard rotating over and really bothering that running floater. It isn't as simple as play back and you'll defend him, giving someone like Rondo that kind of space is inviting of some kind of pass, shot (which he can hit because the defender will be backing up almost always and then it becomes a basket at the rim) or a foul. You give him room to a certain point and up until a certain point to the basket. Igotmyown has the right idea; its essentially a trade off, you take away one option partially (don't bother arguing this), the drive, while giving him the shot (that Rondo doesn't have), but also lanes and other possible offensive sets.But hey what do the NBA play off coaches know, since clearly by your logic then Rondo could be contained in a simple formulaic fashion. You've totally misunderstood the issue. I did not say it was established fact that Rondo must be given a ton of space. It's established fact that playing back on a player does not make it more likely that he'll blow by you. That is what Ace said, that is his argument; that if you give someone a good amount of space they'll blow by you. That's the issue. And Leftnui, your attitude isn't appreciated, you are not the end all to basketball knowledge and some players do not fit the "established" rules of basketball. Just because you aren't "foaming" doesn't mean you aren't noticeably perturbed. Not true, as I said before. And I don't care what you think of my attitude. Thanks though. | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On June 02 2010 07:21 Baum wrote: Ace is right on that defending thing. If you back off too much a fast guard will have a much easier time to blow by or draw a blocking foul. Rondo abuses this so much. Of course a slow center won't be able to stay in front and therefor should back off a bit and try to make him shoot the jump shot but we are talking about good on ball defense not about match up problems. On June 02 2010 11:41 Waxangel wrote: if it helps, kenny smith and some other experts mentioned that playing off of rondo was backfiring terribly for cleveland, and that they should start playing him close =o | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
The second isn't valid however. It's not an agreement with his argument that backing off someone makes it more likely for them to blow by you. It's simply an argument that Rondo should be played closely, a separate argument. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
It was easy for Kobe to move over vs OKC since OKC is/was two players in the playoffs, the Boston Celtics are a possible 4 superstars and 2 more people who can get it done off the bench (big baby and rasheed) If you think they are going to give up size advantage just so Kobe can guard Rondo, i dunno, if you think that Fischer/Brown/Farnar/Vujachick guarding James Harden is going to be anywhere near those players guarding Ray Allen, i dunno. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 03 2010 01:33 Lefnui wrote: You've totally misunderstood the issue. I did not say it was established fact that Rondo must be given a ton of space. No. he understood you just right. On June 01 2010 01:41 Lefnui wrote: It's just ridiculous that any player, even a center, would have such little confidence in their shooting ability. I have no idea why certain teams play him in a default, tight man to man style. He should be treated like he's Shaq five feet out from the three point line. I think that he could be nullified then. It doesn't matter how good you are at driving, you can't get past a defender who's giving you a ton of room. And it gives the defender much more freedom to help others, which is something that Kobe is great at. Just one of the quotes that started the argument. Basically you said that it's a fact you can't get past a defender who gives you room. And btw there were at least 2 more people who agreed with Ace including me, you should reread some of the posts (including your own). | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
Nope, he misunderstood it completely and I explained how. Just one of the quotes that started the argument. Basically you said that it's a fact you can't get past a defender who gives you room. That's wrong. I did not say that. However, it is obvious that when you give a player a good amount of room it's less likely that they can drive past you. Ace said the very opposite, which is total nonsense, and that is the issue at hand. You're referring to a separate argument that occurred earlier. And btw there were at least 2 more people who agreed with Ace including me, you should reread some of the posts (including your own). Nope, as I said those posts agree with the idea that Rondo shouldn't be given space. That is not the argument I was referring to. I've made this very clear a number of times now. Maybe you should learn to read. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On June 03 2010 00:24 Lefnui wrote: I'm perfectly calm, always have been. You're making a misunderstanding that is common on forums. You're assuming that because I argue and mock a person's opinion that I must be foaming from the mouth. It's not the case. I guess most people only say "That guy's a fucking idiot" in an angry tone, but I say it calmly. And if you do think I'm too angry, then you shouldn't condescend me by saying that my opinion is "amusing" to you. Isn't that trolling? Threatening to ban me for no reason. Probably because I pointed out the fact that you misread what I said earlier. As I said earlier, I'm perfectly calm. By calming down, people are referring to the tone and manner of your posts. It's not just what you're saying but how you're saying it that is rubbing people the wrong way. On the other end of the spectrum, certain things such as "that's guy's a fucking idiot" are inappropriate no matter what tone or manner you deliver it in. People disagree in this thread all the time, sometimes quite vehemently, and yet they rarely get the reaction that you're getting from the people they're disagreeing with. Perhaps you need to reconsider your delivery. If not, whether you care what people think of you or not, you will be prevented from participating in the future. There's your reason, which I think was implicit and quite obvious, so react as you will. Lastly, I did not misread what you said earlier. Your mistake was assuming that my post was intended to directly respond to your post, when it was not. The point of my post was to express my opinion on the topic, not to necessarily counter yours. I actually agree with some of what you say, although I do believe that you are oversimplifying things as well. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On June 03 2010 02:22 Lefnui wrote: My mistake, one person agreed with his insane concept. The second isn't valid however. It's not an agreement with his argument that backing off someone makes it more likely for them to blow by you. It's simply an argument that Rondo should be played closely, a separate argument. I think the issue people are having with you is your blanket statement that backing off of someone will always make it harder for them to blow by you. I don't know if it's your intention, but the implications of your arguments are that your statement is true without exception, i.e. in all situations in basketball, against all players. If that is your intention, then quite a few people have already explained why backing off of someone does not always make it harder for them to blow by you. It depends on the player, the particular offense the team is running, on the defender, and various other factors. It has been discussed by NBA analysts, who consist of both players and coaches, in the context of the Cavs' defense on Rondo that giving a quick player space does not necessarily make it harder for them to get past you and score. It's been explained that giving too much space allows players to build up speed and provide more options for their attack since the defender isn't in a position to limit or restrict where he's going except straight on. This has been compared to the same difficulty players have in guarding players in a fast break. If it's not your intention, then you need to explain under what circumstances you believe that backing off of someone will always make it harder for them to blow by you. | ||
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XaI)CyRiC
United States4471 Posts
On June 03 2010 02:28 Holcan wrote: I dont see why you say Kobe will be guarding Rondo as if its some universal truth, it most likely wont happen for most of the game. Who is going to guard Ray Allen if Kobe is on Rondo? There is no one on the Lakers besides Kobe who can guard him. Kobe may try to help double Rondo more times than not, since he is an exceptional help defender, but i think thats as far as they are going to go to giving Rondo respect. It was easy for Kobe to move over vs OKC since OKC is/was two players in the playoffs, the Boston Celtics are a possible 4 superstars and 2 more people who can get it done off the bench (big baby and rasheed) If you think they are going to give up size advantage just so Kobe can guard Rondo, i dunno, if you think that Fischer/Brown/Farnar/Vujachick guarding James Harden is going to be anywhere near those players guarding Ray Allen, i dunno. It's not a universal truth, but it is how the Lakers have guarded Rondo in the past with some success. Kobe has demonstrated that he is capable of guarding Rondo better than anyone else on the Lakers, so it's a pretty safe assumption that he'll do so again at some point in the series (particularly if Fisher struggles). As to who is going to guard Ray Allen, it's obviously going to be Fisher. The Lakers are most concerned with Ray's perimeter shooting, so his size advantage isn't going to be a significant factor. If the Lakers can force Ray to post Fisher up or drive to the basket instead of killing them from behind the arc, I think they come out ahead. With players that good, you have to give something up. Further, Fisher is great at fighting through screens (the Celtics' favorite way of getting Ray free) and chasing players around the perimeter. He's done so against Allen to a good extent. Keep in mind that the Magic's best defender on Ray was J.J. Redick who is about the same size as Fisher but not as strong. Another reason why Kobe on Rondo and Fish on Ray is likely to happen is that Kobe just isn't very good at guarding players like Ray. Kobe likes to help on defense and doesn't like to run around on defense through a bunch of screens. He's very capable of doing so, but both he and the Lakers would prefer that he not have to so he can save his energy for offense. Guarding Rondo will allow Kobe to float around the painted area and save him the trouble of chasing a player off the ball. | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Like i said, Rondo will be guarded by Kobe, at some point, but thats most likely when Ray Allen takes a breather and Tony Allen comes in, and like i said Kobe is an exceptional HELP defender, so he will most likely try to double rondo rather than running off screens, if he can. Also you cannot give someone like Rondo the confidence of immediately placing Kobe onto him, first of all Rondo would still be able to dominate Kobe, just like Kobe will be able to dominate Ray and Paul on the other end, so why tire Kobe out by placing him on the hardest matchup? It seems illogical to ask your best player to take the task on both ends when you already have depth at the guard position able to foul up. Imo, if you see Kobe guarding Rondo its because Brown or Farmar are (most likely brown who isnt as dominated in size) is guarding Ray Allen. I mean, id rather have rondo have a triple double than ray allen start hitting three, but its really pick your poison and hope its not effective that day. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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