+ Show Spoiler +
Oh good. I think black had better moves than that. Avoid Rf2 and the pin. With Queen on b6 we can gain tempo with Na4. c5 becomes somewhat playable again. I think 15. .. Qa5 would have been the worst for us here.
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Oh good. I think black had better moves than that. Avoid Rf2 and the pin. With Queen on b6 we can gain tempo with Na4. c5 becomes somewhat playable again. I think 15. .. Qa5 would have been the worst for us here. | ||
Incognito
United States2071 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Yes, 15. ... Qb6 was a weak move. But not really surprised that it was played because it does seem to give black some initiative initially, piling up on the b-file like that. But really I think white has nothing to fear from this check. 16. Kh1 I think black has three main options here. a) 16. ...Rb8. Simple, piling up on the b-file. chessmaster already stated his line, but I will give a different one. After 17. Na4 Qb4, offering a queen trade, white can actually decline with 18. Qd4! and now white offers a knight trade, except this time with white having an edge after the trade. If black accepts with 18. ... Qxa4 19. Qxe5+, white is much better. Black must play Kg8 or Kh6, Kf7 protecting the e7 pawn loses to 20. Qxf4+. After 20. Qxe7 Qxa2, white can bring his other pieces into the game with force with 21. b4!, preparing Rd4 and Bc4 to bear on the kingside. White's king is perfectly safe, and black's bishop will now be tied down to the defense of the d7 pawn. If black attempts to get rid of this weakness with a move like d5, the game opens up further to white's benefit. Going back to 18. Qd4!, if black declines the knight trade with 18. ... d6, white has an option of playing the docile b3, locking black out of the queenside, or playing the more forceful c5!, renewing black's queen trade at more favorable circumstances while simultaneously protecting his knight. If 19. ... Qxd4 20. Rxd4 dxc5 21. Rd2 (White can't take back because of Rxb2, and black is ok) 21. ... Be6 22. b3. If black decides to try to keep his pawn with Nd7, the only way to defend it, then 23. Rfd1 Rad8 24. Nxc5! and black can't recapture because of Rxd8, winning a rook. If black gives back the pawn and plays 22. ... Rad8 instead, white simply plays 23. Rfd1 and black can't effectively contest the d-file. Going back yet again to 18. Qd4, if black were to instead move the queen and plan 18. ... Qb8, a passive move, white would play 19. c5! stopping d6 and activating his light squared bishop. Black is in a bind, so he probably wouldn't play Qb8. Anyway...that's my long line on 16. ... Rb8 17. Na4 Qb4. b) 16. ... d6. A weak move, as pointed out earlier by chessmaster. 17. Na4 Qc7 18 c5, and black has a weak center, no active options, while white will have a bishop pouring into c4 followed by a knight on c5 with a good game. c) 16. ... Ba6. Attempting to stop white's immediate plans for Na4 followed by c5. White can immediately play 17. c5, attacking the queen and opening the d2 bishop to the a6 bishop. Black is forced to play 17. ... Qb7, after which 18. Bxa6 Qxa6 19. Qd4 and black is forced to play Kf6 unless he wants to lose a pawn (19. ... d6 20. cxd6 exd6 21. Qxd6). After 19. ... Kf6 20. Rc1 Qc4 21. Qd2, black must move his king or lose to Nd5+, picking off the queen. Black should cannot move his king to e6, because after 22. Nd5 black cannot save the pawn and offer to trade queens simultaneously with 22. ... Qd3, as 23. Nxf4 loses. So 21. ... Kg7 and Kg5 are the options. After 21. ... Kg7, 22. Rfd1, renewing the threat of Nd5, attacking the queen and f4 pawn. Black cannot trade queens with Qd3 as he could have before Rfd1, so black must again respond to the threat of Nd5.white has central control and mutliple threats, so he should be fine here. After 21. ... Kg5, black has enough defenders on f4 that he does not have to worry about Nd5. However, his pawn is now pinned to his king. This can be exploited by 22. g3!, and the queen trade Qd3 does not work because of gxf4 with check. If 22. ... Nd3, protecting the pawn, then 24. gxf4+ anyway. If 24. ... Rxf4, then 25. Nd2 attacks the pinned piece as well as unleashing a discovery on the queen. If 24. ... Nxf4, then 25. Nd5! does the job. Black must attempt to trade queens, or else after Rg1+, the knight is lost. Notice that the queen cannot defend with Qf7 because the knight blocks the way. If 25. ... Qd3, then 26. Rg1+ Kh6 (26. ... Kh5 27. Nxf4+ loses, 26. ... Kh4 27. Rg4+ loses, (27. ... Kh3 28. Qg2++, 27. ... Kh5 28. Nxf4+ as in the above line) I can't find a continuation from here right now (kinda tired from trying to do this without a board but I think that white is doing well here. Either way I think 16. ... Ba6 would be black's best option. Other moves: 16. Rf2. This move like previously stated just walks into a pin, when our king really doesn't want to be on the open a7-g1 diagonal anyway. Although the rook may eventually want to defend the second rank, this is difficult to accomplish because our bishop blocks the rank and will have no logical good squares to move to. Bd3 is terrible, blocking the d-file, while Bff1 looks plain awkward, although not terrible. If white eventually plays c5, the bishop may be able to find life on c4, but that will take a while. I think the f1 rook could have a potential future on the g1 square, where we can open the g-file at will. @ chessmaster, in your line I think instead of gxf4 gxf4 black would play gxf4 Rxf4 to take advantage of our backwards f pawn and keep the g file closed. But we don't have to talk about that till later 16. Qd4. White doesn't want to trade off queens at this point. The queen is quite a versatile piece for white, while black's queen may look imposing on the queenside but is just a nuissance. 16. ... Qxd4 17. Rxd4 c5! white doesn't have to worry too much about giving us the d5 square, because his bishop can be posted on b7 or e6 and can chop off our knight at will if we choose to place it on d5. 18. Rd2 Rd8 and black's game is good. White is saddled with a bad bishop which will have a hard time getting outside the pawn chain, while black'ss central pawns do not look so weak. If black tries to break free on the queenside with a3 and b4 or Rb1 and b4, black plays a5! locking down the b4 square. Black's knight is a monster, and can't be chased out by white's pawns or minor pieces. So Qd4 would be bad. Anyway if something is wrong with my lines, let me know, this was done without a board so I might have slipped somewhere. | ||
citi.zen
2509 Posts
On January 01 2010 02:39 Incognito wrote: 16. Kh1 + Show Spoiler + b) 16. ... d6. A weak move, as pointed out earlier by chessmaster. 17. Na4 Qc7 18 c5, and black has a weak center, no active options, while white will have a bishop pouring into c4 followed by a knight on c5 with a good game. + Show Spoiler + 16. ... d6 17. Na4 Qe3 is better for black, but still leaves us looking ok. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
The overall strategy overarching plan that I have been basing play off of is that we have light squared bishops and one knight on the board with all major pieces still in play. The dominant goal should be to post as many pawns on dark squares as possible and then find an advanced outpost for the knight on a dark square. There are a few key dark squares to watch out for: c5 d4 e3 f4. Important for c5 are the white c3 knight and c4 pawn and the black b6 queen and c6 pawn. White has good control of d4 right now. e3 is still being contested. There are two good moves in this situation provided we get the chance. 17. Na4 on the Queenside. If black moves d6 or plays on the kingside, we should go for this next move. 17. g3 on the Kingside. If black plays on the Queenside with a move like a5 or Qa5, we should go for this move. I think g3 will smash open the kingside or play to white's advantage. As long as the c8 bishop is still blocked by e7 and the king is in a relatively vulnerable position like g7, opening up the kingside will be to our advantage. responses are either 17. ... fxg3 gives white the f4 square after 18. hxg3 and 17. ... g5 opens up the kingside after 18. Rg1 Ng6 19 h4 | ||
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
if he does d6 we do na4 if he does rb8 we do g3 it's that simple | ||
Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On January 01 2010 08:46 Bill Murray wrote: + Show Spoiler + if he does d6 we do na4 if he does rb8 we do g3 it's that simple + Show Spoiler + I think rb8 g3 is a little premature. | ||
Misder
United States1557 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + For reasons stated by others. I like incognito's analysis. + Show Spoiler + I just noticed that our pawn structure is horrible if we end up with a same colored bishop ending. Our bishop is so passive; long term, we need to either trade it or make it active. | ||
Incognito
United States2071 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Adendum to my 16. ... Ba6 line. After 19. ... Kf6, we instead play 20. g3! The pawn can't be taken because of 21. f4, winning the pinned piece. So after 20. ... g4 21. gxf4 gxf4 22. Qd2. Black must protect the weak f4 pawn. 22. ... Ke6 loses to Nd2. 22. ... Kg5 loses to 23. Rg1+ Kh6 (23. ... Kh5 24. Qg2 with checkmate to follow, while 23. ... Kh4 24. Qf2+ Kh5 with the same mate as the one above) 24. Qg2 and black is in serious trouble. 22. ... Kg5 meets a similar fate. If 22. ... Kg7, 23. Rg1+ Kh8 24. Qd4, and black's only chance to save his knight is the horrible 24. ... d6, after which 25. cxd6 exd6 26. Qxd6 and white wins. So there's the rest of the Ba6 line. g3 is critical to bust open the kingside and open up lines for white. So actually Ba6 is not so good for black, as I had previously thought. 16. ... d6 17. Na4 Qe3 is better for black, but still leaves us looking ok. 18. c5!. Black can't take, since 18. ... dxc5 19. Qxe3 fxe3 Nxc5 leaves white good. So... 18. ... Rf6 19. Qc2! and black' queen looks like it may soon be trapped. Black's queen already has no moves, all white has to do is attack it. 19. ... Be6 20. Bd3, preparing Rfe1. If 20. ... Qd4, 21. Bc4 and black must sacrifice his knight to save the queen. So black's best try is to trade queens at move 18 with 18. ... Qxd2. After which 19. Rxd2 Rd8 20. Rfd1 Be6 21. b3 and black has to abandon his e5 post to protect the d pawn. 21. ... Nf7 22. Nb2, bringing the knight back into the game. The pawn can't be taken because 22. ... dxc5 23. Nd3 and white wins the pawn back and has an active good position. All black's pieces are tied down. If 22. ... Rab8, trying to get into the b4 square, 23. Nd3 anyways, forcing g5, the only way to protect the pawn. 24. g3 forces black to take, 24. ... fxg3 25. hxg3 and white has a good game with good central control and strong kingside pawns. Back to 16. ... Rb8. I missed for black 21. ... c5, where black would be clearly better. So ignore my 16. ... Rb8 line. Back to chessmaster's 16. ... Rb8 17. g3 Qxb2 line, After 18. Qd4 d6 19. Rb1! and black's only option is to answer with 19. ... c5. 20. Rxb2 cxd4 21. Rxb8 dxc3 and white now has to deal with black's passed pawn. 22. Rc1 fxg3 23. hxg3. Black can't take the pawn on f3, because 23. ... Nxf3?? 24. Bxf3 Rxf3 25. Rxc8 loses. So 23. ... Nc6 24. Ra8 (white should keep the bishop pinned) Nd4 25. Bd1, and black' cannot hold onto his advanced pawn. White is up an exchange and will win. If instead of Qxb2, black plays 17. ... Qe3, the queen trade is ok for white. 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. f4 Nf7 20. b3, and white has a solid center while white is passive. Black also has a weak e3 pawn and should lose it soon. addendum starts here White's position looks awkward after 17. ... fxg3 18. f4 d6! A move that is hard to find for black unless you look at the position around white's king. The pawn on g3, Queen on a6 eyeing g1, and the bishop would make an imposing threat on the black king. After 19. fxe5, 19. ... Bh3 threatens 20. ... g2#. White's only response is 20. Rg1, after which 20. ... g2+ 21. Rxg2 Bxg2+ 22. Kxg2 dxe5 and white is up a two minor pieces for a rook, a good trade. Meanwhile black's center is crumbling. White's position looks fine. After 18. ... Nf7 19. hxg3, the other option, white has a strong kingside pawn structure and good pieces, while black is back in passivity. After 17. ... g5, black's last option, white seems to have run into a wall block. Na4 cannot be played due to Qb4, and 18. gxf4 gxf4 19. Rg1+ Kh8 seems to get him nowhere. White can't exploit the open g-file, and moves like Qe3 threaten to take the punch out of white's attack. I don't know how white can get out of 17. ... g5. More lines to come in the future. | ||
jfazz
Australia672 Posts
Kh1, as per Incognito's analysis. I won't be around to help much, but I will try to post tournament updates as I have them, then some reports and game analysis when I am back (a little more than three weeks). My final practice results, over the last month are +10 -2 =8 (70%), including several games against grandmasters (all draws!). We finally managed to find some improvements in the CaroKann mainline after: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 (the best imo, never had good results with Ngf6, although it is probably classicaly more correct) 11.Bf4 Qa5+ (again, the best line) 12.Bd2 (c3 allows the queen to stay on a5, where it prevents queenside castling, leading to a boring middlegame chances, where black has a good endgame)12...Qc7 13.0-0-0 (Qe2 is the principle alternative, although outside GM play it is quite rare, it just doesnt do enough, other than removing the queen from opposition from the d8 rook when black castles long, and the very timid threat of Nf5, which means little)13...Ngf6 (again, more accurate than 0-0-0) 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Bd6 (scores better than the immediate Ngf6) 16.g3 Ngf6 17.Qe2 Re8 18.c4 this was the line that caused me a lot of difficulty. Not because Black is in great difficulty, but just because after the forced c5 (to stop white from playing it) Black position just lags as worse (you would rather play e5, given the position of the white queen). Luckily, we found a more or less forced draw involving a piece sacrifice, a knight for four pawns (but probably three after getting queens off), which leads to an endgame with king+knight+2pawns vs king+5pawns, from which I have scored a draw and a win (he got greedy with his knight). Plane leaves soon, so need to board. Ill write more when I get a moment, even some of my new theory. I managed to get some novelties in some other caro lines (g6 panov, schlecter attack as well). I have some cool stuff in the advance caro ready as well. Nimzo and QID are the same as always, but for once I readied 1.c4 e5 instead of my usual 1.c4 c5 - so I can at least play for an advantage with black ![]() Speak to you guys soon, smash lightman! | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
responses 16. ... Rb8 17. b3 slow and solid seems to be the best here 17. g3 creates a really complicated active position with lots and lots of exchanges - the more natural line is rushed because b2 is hanging the whole time. best continuation is probably 16. ... Rb8 17 g3 fxg3 18 f4 d6! (excellent move) continuations 19 Na4 Qb4 20 fxe5 (trade of knights and rooks.) 19 hxf3 Bh3 20 fxe5 Bxf1 20 Bxf1 Qxb2 (rook and pawn for the minor pieces) 16. ... Ba6 17 c5! Qb7 18 Qd4 Kf6 From the lines I see Black is whole pawn down and is worse off positionally. There is a nasty pin of the knight on e5 and the bishops on the board ties down the black queen. White eventually takes f4 with the knight after Black trades bishops on d2 to free up the queen for other defenses. jfazz, 3 pawns for the minor piece after majors come off is a good endgame right? I guess it really depends on the configuration of the pawns for black and if there are any A or H file passed pawns | ||
jfazz
Australia672 Posts
3 pawns for a piece is pretty good once the majors are off, especially if it is three pawns vs knight. Usually, you are getting a,b,c pawns vs b or c, then f and g vs f in that line, so the knight has its hands full. Managed to get one game in on the plane against my brother, which was a comfortable win in a Catalan (closed, Bd2 line a la Kramnik). Then we played challenge matches against other passenges using the games server, which was fairly amusing. I had a game as white that went 1.d4 Nc6 2.Bf4!? e5?? so yeah, people are hilarious. Need to raid the lounge for food, so more when Im off the next flight. | ||
Arhkangel
Argentina769 Posts
I vote 16.Kh1 | ||
proberecall
United States104 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
On January 01 2010 14:02 jfazz wrote: We finally managed to find some improvements in the CaroKann mainline after: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 (the best imo, never had good results with Ngf6, although it is probably classicaly more correct) 11.Bf4 Qa5+ (again, the best line) 12.Bd2 (c3 allows the queen to stay on a5, where it prevents queenside castling, leading to a boring middlegame chances, where black has a good endgame)12...Qc7 13.0-0-0 (Qe2 is the principle alternative, although outside GM play it is quite rare, it just doesnt do enough, other than removing the queen from opposition from the d8 rook when black castles long, and the very timid threat of Nf5, which means little)13...Ngf6 (again, more accurate than 0-0-0) 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Bd6 (scores better than the immediate Ngf6) 16.g3 Ngf6 17.Qe2 Re8 18.c4 Got confused after 16. ... Ngf6 wouldn't it be just Nf6? And how does black move Re8 on move 17? | ||
lightman
United States731 Posts
Gentlemen, Happy New Year 2010 ! CURRENT POSITION: JUST PLAYED: 16...d6 VOTING CLOSES: SUNDAY | ||
lightman
United States731 Posts
jfazz good luck on your tourney mate !! save some of the scoresheets or post them here so we can analyze and discuss them afterwards. | ||
citi.zen
2509 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 16... d6 was always the most likely move. I think 17... Qe3 is likely to follow our Na4. | ||
Athos
United States2484 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Addresses the potential threat of BA6 and solidifies our pawn structure. I'm thinking we can play RG1 next move followed by G3. | ||
YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
I prefer 17. b3 + Show Spoiler + 17. ... Qe3 is favorable for us, no? After 18. Qxe3 fxe3 19. f4 Na4 doesn't really let us do much with it. Sure, Black will have to move the queen, but where can we really go afterwards, other than back to c3? Another option, I believe, is a3, getting ready for b4. Eventually, maybe c5 as well. If we exchange a few pawns, maybe the Knight will have somewhere to move. | ||
Ikari
United States176 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 17. Na4 blocks 17...Qa5, and allows us to play 18. c5 or b3 depending on his move. | ||
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