• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:20
CET 10:20
KST 18:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down
Tourneys
SC2 INu's Battles#22 SC4ALL: II Venue Change Announcement! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [G] How to playtest arcade maps [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Rollback Netcode in Brood War Sagi.gg Launcher Released BW General Discussion [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [$1250] International ShieldBattery League Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Stratus: Battle for the sky now on steam Early acc
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Dating: How's your luck? US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Playlenda
Playlendapro
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11120 users

TL Chess match II - Page 25

Forum Index > General Games
Post a Reply
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 46 Next All
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 02:57:58
December 28 2009 18:26 GMT
#481
:p Yeah men why do I always think that going for the kill is the move that comes next?
Part Time Ninja
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-28 18:36:33
December 28 2009 18:30 GMT
#482
On December 29 2009 02:13 citi.zen wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?

I think we would do better preparing for some sort of f3 push, either immediately or right after black opens up the d7 field so he can activate his bishop. Perhaps we can play 15. f3? Is that too paranoid? Is it not worth the risk of opening up the black diagonal to the king?

+ Show Spoiler +
Was considering
15. Qd4 c5 16. Nb5 cxd4 17. Nxc7 Rb8 18. b3


On December 29 2009 03:26 Arhkangel wrote:
:p Yeah men why do I always think that going for the kill is the move that comes next?

I change my vote to 15.d3

+ Show Spoiler +
I thinf 15.f3 doesn´t accomplish anything (yet) and 15.Qd4 c5 is a very bad move for us IMO. Is 15.Bd3 a viable move?

...d3?
God Mode: Alt+F4
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
December 28 2009 19:53 GMT
#483
On December 29 2009 02:13 citi.zen wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?

I think we would do better preparing for some sort of f3 push, either immediately or right after black opens up the d7 field so he can activate his bishop. Perhaps we can play 15. f3? Is that too paranoid? Is it not worth the risk of opening up the black diagonal to the king?


+ Show Spoiler +

17 Nb5

15. Qd4 is fine
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
December 28 2009 22:40 GMT
#484
15. b3

+ Show Spoiler +
I don't think we get an advantage with Qd4 at the moment (though I don't think it's bad), and we don't seem to have any other attacking lines or options. Maybe we can get something more interesting later on by exploiting Black's king position then. So I say it's time to wait and turtle!
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
December 29 2009 02:04 GMT
#485
I think white is starting to get some pull now.
+ Show Spoiler +
But what to do?

Starting off, what is black attempting...he now has some nagging pressure against c4, and Black has now taken control of the f3 square, so he could attempt some sort of kingside assault in the near future.

Thats not a huge deal, as an open g-file could benefit us greatly.

I like the move Kh1.

15.Kh1 allows us to meet black's moves:

a)15...f3 16.gxf3 Nxf3 17.Bxf3 Rxf3 18.Qd4+ Kg8 19.e5!

It took me a while to find this move, but it is important to cut down Black's counterplay (it prevents the Black queen from coming quickly to the kingside), and also threatens 20.Nd5! hitting the queen, and if cxd5 Qxd5+ wins the rook on a8. So...

19...Rb8 20.Ne4 Rf5 21.f4 Qa5 22.a3 Qb6 23.Qxb6 Rxb6 24.b4

White has a won endgame position.

b)15...Rb8 16.c6 d6 17.cxd6 exd6 This is a more accurate way to play for black. White has a myriad of options, and the game is still on. I would probably want to play some consolidating moves, leading to play against the exposed pawns on the c and d files. We would have a nice, lagging initiative.

c)15...Ba6

Black intends to finish development, and accept the slight inferiority of his position. Black will hold with accurate play, but white can quickly strip him of active possibilities.

16. b3 Rad8 17.f3 d6 18.Qd4 e6 19.c5!? dxc5 20.Qxc5

Black has lots of options. I don't think we have significant winning chances from this position, but we are really solid and safe. If we wanted bigger winning chances, we could play more actively at move 17.f3 - we could instead play 17.Qd4 d6 18.f3 (required i would think) with similar play anyway, but perhaps more chance for black to go wrong.

Other tries at move 15 for white:
1) 15.b3 is a little passive, and the move isnt true propylaxis. It is better to wait until black commits pieces to attacking on the b-file, so eat up his time before playing this move. It isnt a bad move at all, and we will often play it anyway, but we can be more productive at this point.

2) 15.Qd4 is probably very similar to my line c). There are distinct, independant lines, but they revolve around black trying to whip up an attack.

I think the only acceptable moves that we can play are those that meet the ...f3 threat. Qd4 does this temporaily, f3 permanently, and Kh1 indirectly (it makes such a push good for us).

Im sticking wit Kh1, but Qd4 is acceptable as well.

15.Kh1
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
December 29 2009 02:57 GMT
#486
So I decided I'm going to refrain from voting until jfazz posts his analysis on future moves :p Ikari yes I'm sorry I messed up the letters.

I vote for 15.Kh1 but was initially planing on voting for 15.b3.

+ Show Spoiler +
I thought that 15.b3 would be our best aggressive approach but it's not right just yet and Qd4 just doesn't sit well with me. If we play Qd4 black has a lot more ways to draw the game than we have to win it.
Part Time Ninja
Arhkangel
Profile Joined August 2007
Argentina769 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-29 03:00:08
December 29 2009 02:59 GMT
#487
Oh one more thing why is the notation for the last move we played Rad1 instead of just Rd1?
Part Time Ninja
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
December 29 2009 03:05 GMT
#488
haha your making me blush a little.

Nothing wrong with b3, f3, Qd4 or Kh1, they are just different ways of handling the position, which comes down to style more than anything.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
December 29 2009 03:07 GMT
#489
Because we could have moved either the a-file or f-file rook to d1, so you have to denote which one it was
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
December 29 2009 05:40 GMT
#490
15. b3

+ Show Spoiler +
Ok... main contenders:

A. 15. b3, perhaps most likely answered with 15... f3. 16. gxf3, Nxf3 17. Bxf3, Rxf3 18. Qd4+ likely followed by either
A1: 18... e5 19. Qc5, Rxc3 is tempting, capturing a knight. However, 20. Rd6 would give us a major advantage and put black into a real mess.
A2: 18... Kg8. The we could play 19. Kd5, and black is getting in trouble pretty fast.

Conclusion: I like it a lot vs. f3, and does no harm vs. other moves as far as I can tell.

B. 15. Kg1 I think 15... f3, following the line set up by jfazz above likely leads to 18. Qd4+ Kg8 19. e5 and maybe Rb8. 20. Ne4, Qa5 21.a3, Qb6 setting up a likely queen exchange. Our position is not bad, but I don't think we get much more than a draw. Black has a decent pawn structure, two active rooks and the king is slightly closer to the middle of the board.

Conclusion: I think this will lead us pretty safely to a draw, unless black makes a major blunder.

C. 15. f3 ... Qb6+, then 16. Rf2 or 16. Kh1 - they both look pretty similar to me. White has a good, solid position but no real opportunities to attack.

Conclusion: safe move which seems to lead to a more complex ending than variant B - since there is no immediate queen exchange. Draw is likely but more room for surprises, good or bad.

D. 15. Qd4 then 15... Rb8 is fine but does not accomplish much after 16. b3 and maybe 16.... d6?

Conclusions: seems fine to me (I had missed obvious things before, thanks ikari and tangeng) but not stellar.

Sooo.... after wasting way too much time staring at the board to decide on one vote for one move in one of TL's chess games, I've decided to try to play b3 and try to bait black a bit. Of course, he might be reading the spoilers, but then again b3 should do no harm anyway.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Incognito
Profile Joined November 2008
United States2071 Posts
December 29 2009 05:44 GMT
#491
+ Show Spoiler +
For some reason I don't like Kh1. After the moves mentioned by jfazz I feel that black's bishop becomes too powerful on the a8-h1 diagonal, which will now be devoid of pawn cover. Also what would happen if after Qd4+ black played e5 or Kh6? If white continues on the path mentioned with e5, black could then play Bb7, which forces our queen off the a8-h1 diagonal into passivity and protects his rooks simultaneously. The bishop would also be ready to give a discovered check the next move which would be nasty for us. The point of e5 or Kh6 being that now Qd5+ doesn't fork the rooks and king, allowing black to move Bb7 with tempo. At the moment my gut feeling is that f3 would be solid, but again I don't have too much time or a board on my hands to give a variation. F3 would stop black's kingside counterplay and would allow us to concentrate on the center. Letting black trade down by playing f3 himself doesnt seem like the best option to me at first glance.


For now I vote for 15. f3.
The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
December 29 2009 06:11 GMT
#492
Incognitio, can you address a specific line or even write out your specific analysis? All I am really getting is that you give blakc the best possible position and white a passive one - while that is possible, I would really need to see the specific movelist to see how it would come to pass.
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
December 29 2009 06:32 GMT
#493
i feel like b3 isnt as strong as b4 or Qd4
I would MUCH rather do b4, but as noone is voting for that...


15. Qd4
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
December 29 2009 06:45 GMT
#494
*reason why we shouldn't b3 yet*
IMPORTANT -> CITI.ZEN
+ Show Spoiler +
You said "C5" like it's an automatic response to Qd4... but that leaves open Nd5 or Nb5 and his queen dies and we are in favorable position if he wants to trade with something like Nd5 cxd4 nxc7 or nb5 cxd4 nxc7 it doesnt really matter... he will probably then move his rook to the b square and we could THEN do the b3 or b4 like everyone is so eager to do
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
jfazz
Profile Joined September 2009
Australia672 Posts
December 29 2009 06:45 GMT
#495
13.Qd2 to play 15.Qd4 doesn't make a lot of sense
Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
December 29 2009 06:52 GMT
#496
On December 29 2009 15:45 Bill Murray wrote:
*reason why we shouldn't b3 yet*
IMPORTANT -> CITI.ZEN
+ Show Spoiler +
You said "C5" like it's an automatic response to Qd4... but that leaves open Nd5 or Nb5 and his queen dies and we are in favorable position if he wants to trade with something like Nd5 cxd4 nxc7 or nb5 cxd4 nxc7 it doesnt really matter... he will probably then move his rook to the b square and we could THEN do the b3 or b4 like everyone is so eager to do


+ Show Spoiler +
In my last post I did not mention c5 as a reply to Qd4. In fact, once I sat down with a board I recognized I had missed obvious problems with that move and thanked those who pointed that out.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
December 29 2009 06:53 GMT
#497
On December 29 2009 15:45 jfazz wrote:
13.Qd2 to play 15.Qd4 doesn't make a lot of sense


Had the same thought at some point, yet here we are and Qd4 looks likely in many lines.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
December 29 2009 06:57 GMT
#498
well, i have a tendancy not to read 5 paragraphs
give me a line and ill look at it. i see where u said that now
i had just read
+ Show Spoiler +
"I guess I don't see how Qd4 is not a waste of time: 15. Qd4...c5. 16. Qd5?... Bb7. 17. Qd2 is the only option, back where we started from but with black controlling the diagonal + c5. Am I missing something obvious here?"


so i thought u were going to respond like that, and i was just saying, that's not what he would do
that would actually give us a very favorable position, something that seems hard to come by with the board ive been looking at
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
December 29 2009 07:04 GMT
#499
Here:

On December 29 2009 14:40 citi.zen wrote:
15. b3

+ Show Spoiler +
Ok... main contenders:

A. 15. b3, perhaps most likely answered with 15... f3. 16. gxf3, Nxf3 17. Bxf3, Rxf3 18. Qd4+ likely followed by either
A1: 18... e5 19. Qc5, Rxc3 is tempting, capturing a knight. However, 20. Rd6 would give us a major advantage and put black into a real mess.
A2: 18... Kg8. The we could play 19. Kd5, and black is getting in trouble pretty fast.

Conclusion: I like it a lot vs. f3, and does no harm vs. other moves as far as I can tell.

B. 15. Kg1 I think 15... f3, following the line set up by jfazz above likely leads to 18. Qd4+ Kg8 19. e5 and maybe Rb8. 20. Ne4, Qa5 21.a3, Qb6 setting up a likely queen exchange. Our position is not bad, but I don't think we get much more than a draw. Black has a decent pawn structure, two active rooks and the king is slightly closer to the middle of the board.

Conclusion: I think this will lead us pretty safely to a draw, unless black makes a major blunder.

C. 15. f3 ... Qb6+, then 16. Rf2 or 16. Kh1 - they both look pretty similar to me. White has a good, solid position but no real opportunities to attack.

Conclusion: safe move which seems to lead to a more complex ending than variant B - since there is no immediate queen exchange. Draw is likely but more room for surprises, good or bad.

D. 15. Qd4 then 15... Rb8 is fine but does not accomplish much after 16. b3 and maybe 16.... d6?

Conclusions: seems fine to me (I had missed obvious things before, thanks ikari and tangeng) but not stellar.

Sooo.... after wasting way too much time staring at the board to decide on one vote for one move in one of TL's chess games, I've decided to try to play b3 and try to bait black a bit. Of course, he might be reading the spoilers, but then again b3 should do no harm anyway.

Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
December 29 2009 07:10 GMT
#500
"i see where u said that now"
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 46 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 221
ProTech143
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3075
Leta 386
Larva 322
actioN 214
Zeus 201
ZerO 104
Stork 101
Shine 76
Bale 61
910 51
[ Show more ]
Yoon 51
Shinee 36
Sharp 31
Free 27
Trap 22
Aegong 20
yabsab 12
HiyA 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever129
League of Legends
JimRising 448
Counter-Strike
ceh9531
Other Games
summit1g11454
olofmeister377
XaKoH 310
Fuzer 167
Lowko91
KnowMe81
Sick69
NeuroSwarm67
Railgan14
ZerO(Twitch)2
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL88
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 25
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt511
Upcoming Events
Ultimate Battle
2h 40m
Soma vs Royal
Replay Cast
13h 40m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d
WardiTV Invitational
1d 2h
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
OSC
1d 13h
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
PiGosaur Cup
1d 15h
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
5 days
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
IPSL
6 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-06
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

Sector 951
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.