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On December 25 2009 20:26 TanGeng wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 14:45 Incognito wrote:On December 25 2009 13:49 TanGeng wrote:On c5 + Show Spoiler + The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
+ Show Spoiler + I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
+ Show Spoiler + In your line not 17. cxd6 Rb4, but 17. Rac1 what follows is 17. ... Rf6 18. Rfd1 which completes white's plan of playing on the c and d files
I think 13. ... Qc7 is black's strongest response to 13. Qd2 with the centralizing Qe5 move to follow. After 13. ... Qc7 white's c5 becomes far inferior. It can no longer be considered because of Qe5
As black I would play 13. ... Qc7 against 13. c5 as well.
+ Show Spoiler + Hmm, 17. Rac1 with the idea of blocking Rb4 with Rc4? I dont have an actual board with me right now, so can someone check this for me? If white blocks Rb4 with either Rc4 or Bc4, how does black do with Be6? If Be6 works for black, then Rac1 wouldn't do much to stop Rb4. Unless you had a different intention for 17. Rac1.
Anyway, if 13. ... Qc7 makes c5 inferior, how does playing c5 first make it not inferior? And how is c5 after Qc7 inferior? I guess I don't understand the idea. If it is inferior because Qe5 controls c5, Qe7 could do the same thing. The queen and the knight can't both be on e5, so if Qe5 the knight would probably have to come to e6 via g5. If 14. Rac1 Qe5 15. Na4 Ng5 16. Qd3 (guarding f3) Ne6 17. Rfd1 Nd4 locking us out of the d file again. I guess I'm lost on how Qe5 makes c5 inferior. I think the knight would be better on e5 with the Queen on e7 for black. Although you could make an argument for the queen on e5. But, if black ever wants to shut white out of the d file with a knight on d4, it would be better for black to have a pawn on e5.
Let me go back for a second to a line without black playing Ne5. My new Idea for black is that he should not allow white's queen into the d4 square, and should try to claim that square to lock white out of the d-file with moves like e5, Nf7-g5-e6, and Rb4. What about 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3 Rb4! denying white's queen the d4 square. If instead of b3, Qd4+, e5 and white has lost tempo. So after 15. ... Rb4, white will probably play the moves Bc4, Rac1, and f3 while black plays e5, Rf6 (to keep the queen out of d6) and Ng5-e6. If black decides to trade off his bishop at any point with Ba6, he should have a good game with all the resources he has piled up on the d4 point.
Again I don't have a board so if you might have to check my variations.
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Sanya12364 Posts
On December 26 2009 08:47 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 20:26 TanGeng wrote:On December 25 2009 14:45 Incognito wrote:On December 25 2009 13:49 TanGeng wrote:On c5 + Show Spoiler + The idea with c5 is to put the white knight on a4 and defend it with a pawn on b3 this should lock up the Queen-side so white can play on the d and c files. This part of the reason why b4 isn't such a great move.
I think denying black good access to d4 is crucial to and effective attack. The c5 pawn also serves the purpose of closing down the b6 g1 diagonal.
13. ... e5 should be met with 14. Bc4
trading away the bishops with 13. ... Qa5 14. Na4 Ba6 15 Bxa6 Qxa6 14. b3
and now black queen in on a relatively ineffective square a6 while white can continue Qg4and play with the open d file.
+ Show Spoiler + I think the idea that black's center is weak is a misconception. It is only weak after black plays d6 AND he is defending passively. c5 allows black to defend actively and allows him to open the center to his advantage once his pieces are developed.
Black would not respond to 13. c5 with 13. ... e5, but with Qa5. Plus, moving the bishop to c4 weakens the f3 square, where black may want to push if he gets the chance. Also after some more thought I think trading bishops would be a bad idea for black. After all, bad bishops protect good pawns. Plus, Rb8 seems stronger because it develops a piece with tempo.
If c5 is supposed to close up the queenside, it does a poor job in doing so. After 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3, black plays Ne5, and after 16. Qd4 d6 17. cxd6 Rb4!, black's rook enters the scene strongly. The only way it can be kicked out is with a3, which weakens the queenside and gives black a new target in the a3 and b3 pawns.
After this sequence, if 18. Bc4 exd6, the white queen can't take at d6 because the pawn on b3 is overloaded. 19. Qxd6? Nxc4 wins a piece for two pawns, black has good central control and white's knight and rooks are poorly placed while his queen is running from the black pieces. So white's only other option is 19. Nb2, protecting the c4 bishop and moving the knight off the a4 square since it has accomplished its purpose there. Black simply plays 19. Rf6, breaking the pin on the knight and defending d6 and the game looks pretty equal.
Going back to move 18, if white had moved the queen, say Qd1, then 18. ... exd6 19. Qxd6 Rxe4 20. Bd3 Nxd3 21. Qxd3 Bf5 and white seems to be on the defensive. If white trades queens with 22. Qc3+, black is still fine even though he has two isolated pawns. I see a draw here.
My contention would be that white wants to play on the queenside. The kingside is where black has his most powerful threat, the f4-f3 push. In the above sequence, black shows that he can afford to open up the center, where supposedly white wants to play. However, with a knight on a4 and two rooks on a1 and f1 doing nothing, white is a bit late on development and has a hard time taking advantage of black's "weak" center. Play in the center requires developed pieces. 13. Qd2 closes out black's knight (although we still need to discuss what white can do after black plays Qe7 and Ng5) and prepares to use our queenside pawn majority to generate some play there. After 13. Qd2 e5 14. b4, Black's knight and kingside rook are locked out of the queenside, giving white plenty of reason to want to attack there. Although the center may look weak, I think the knight and bishop help defend it adequately enough to a point where white should look elsewhere to find an attack. Namely, the queenside.
+ Show Spoiler + In your line not 17. cxd6 Rb4, but 17. Rac1 what follows is 17. ... Rf6 18. Rfd1 which completes white's plan of playing on the c and d files
I think 13. ... Qc7 is black's strongest response to 13. Qd2 with the centralizing Qe5 move to follow. After 13. ... Qc7 white's c5 becomes far inferior. It can no longer be considered because of Qe5
As black I would play 13. ... Qc7 against 13. c5 as well.
+ Show Spoiler + Hmm, 17. Rac1 with the idea of blocking Rb4 with Rc4? I dont have an actual board with me right now, so can someone check this for me? If white blocks Rb4 with either Rc4 or Bc4, how does black do with Be6? If Be6 works for black, then Rac1 wouldn't do much to stop Rb4. Unless you had a different intention for 17. Rac1.
Anyway, if 13. ... Qc7 makes c5 inferior, how does playing c5 first make it not inferior? And how is c5 after Qc7 inferior? I guess I don't understand the idea. If it is inferior because Qe5 controls c5, Qe7 could do the same thing. The queen and the knight can't both be on e5, so if Qe5 the knight would probably have to come to e6 via g5. If 14. Rac1 Qe5 15. Na4 Ng5 16. Qd3 (guarding f3) Ne6 17. Rfd1 Nd4 locking us out of the d file again. I guess I'm lost on how Qe5 makes c5 inferior. I think the knight would be better on e5 with the Queen on e7 for black. Although you could make an argument for the queen on e5. But, if black ever wants to shut white out of the d file with a knight on d4, it would be better for black to have a pawn on e5.
Let me go back for a second to a line without black playing Ne5. My new Idea for black is that he should not allow white's queen into the d4 square, and should try to claim that square to lock white out of the d-file with moves like e5, Nf7-g5-e6, and Rb4. What about 13. c5 Qa5 14. Na4 Rb8 15. b3 Rb4! denying white's queen the d4 square. If instead of b3, Qd4+, e5 and white has lost tempo. So after 15. ... Rb4, white will probably play the moves Bc4, Rac1, and f3 while black plays e5, Rf6 (to keep the queen out of d6) and Ng5-e6. If black decides to trade off his bishop at any point with Ba6, he should have a good game with all the resources he has piled up on the d4 point.
Again I don't have a board so if you might have to check my variations.
+ Show Spoiler + What I was trying to say is that c5 is valid now because white is still one step ahead of black at the moment. White will have a hard time getting c5 off if the moment is not seized.
Qe5 attacks e4 and c5. Knight can't move the only good defense is b4 and black's a5 comes quickly after.
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Gentlemen,
Good morning and Merry Christmas
Move has been updated to 13... Qc7
CURRENT POSITION:
JUST PLAYED: 13......Qc7
VOTING CLOSES: MONDAY
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Sanya12364 Posts
14. b4
+ Show Spoiler + Now guarding against black's c5 is top priority.
I'm starting to think black is slightly ahead.
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Time to turn my positional mode on: + Show Spoiler +Firstly, white is much better now. We can play for a win without risk once the Queen's come off, and with the queen going to c7 (e7 was more accurate as mentioned by an earlier poster), that will soon be the case. Why? Because Nd5 hits the queen, undermining the f4 pawn, which is attacked by our queen - thus, if c5 is played in the near future, we play Nd5, black has to move his queen, and we take the pawn and exchange queens - black has to exchange queens or he loses two tempi back to back moving his queen to avoid exchanges.
So, we can say with complete knowledge that c5 is unplayable for some time.
Looking at Black's position, lets start with the structural considerations. He has an a-file isolani, that may be weak in the endgame. While he has an open b-file, that is irrelevant once we play b3, and the a-file push is not scary because Nc3 covers the threat. The knight is only moving if d5 becomes available, and if it does, the initiative that will grant us will prevent queenside counterplay indefinitely. So we are strong on the queenside.
Black currently has a stong centre, but it isnt advanced into the "Sicilian small centre" as Karpov referred to it in his book, by the same name (highly reccomended read for any player who uses structures with pawns on d6 and e6, so nimzo/QID players as well!). Black probably wants to play for a centre with c5, d6 and e6. This nabs the d4 square which is significant in an endgame, but also covers the d5 weakness. However, it also makes a big weakness on an open file, that our major pieces can exploit, so while it is nice for an endgame, it may never happen. More likely may be c5, d6,e7, but then he has significant lightsquare weaknesses, including d5 and maybe even e6 (wouldnt that be nasty!). The key to prompting that sort of structure, which is at least rook and knight resistant, is d-file pressure, so that the e-pawn is locked to defending the d-pawn.
The kingside is sorta irrelevant at this point. Black's king is a little airy, but there is little we can do to attack without advancncing our own kinside pawns, which we do not want to do - it gives too much counterplay. We just need to play f3 or pehaps Bf3 (I prefer f3 to bring the bishop to the queenside at some point). With our light square strategy, it is not a great piece, and I would like to exchange it off at some point. It will be a little passive in an endgame, and the weaknesses in blacks poisition may knight play more enticing.
So what are our plans? 1)shore up the kingside play, to promote queenside play where black has more difficulties 2)to tie black down to d-file defence, to limit his central pawn formation to an ineffective, but easily defended one. 3)try to trade our lightsquare bishop for his knight. In an endgame, even though our pawns will be on lightsquares, his bishop will be very inneffective, give the base of our chains are a2 and g2, and thus only vulnerable on the backrank - so covered by rooks.
I would like to start with the d-file pressure, as c5 isnt a necessary move for us JUST yet (it will be), due to the aforementioned knight fork. Thus, Rad1 (we might double on the f-file, but we may also need a rook on the e-file, for when we intend th eother central advance to really squish black. If he plays for e5 in lieu of c5, his knight will be stuck defending the e5 pawn, so after c5, Bc4 is menaced, and we can trade the piece by force. Nasty!
So its simlple really. Rad1 to tie down the black pieces a little, then respond to black as necessary. Plaay b3 to meet Rb8, f3 to meet any kingside advance, c5 to meet e5 and Nd5 to meet c5. This is strong positional play, not passive play, because we are not reacting to threats you see. Whenever blac tries to go active, we will be taking positional advantages. Eventually, black will be optimized in a compromised fashion, and we can move by move force him backwards.
We really have a great position.
14.Rad1 (need to see analysis for why this prevents c5 fully)
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Argh well there goes any c5 move...
I'll go with 14. b4 as well.
+ Show Spoiler + 14. c5 is met by 14... Qe5, with bad things on the horizon.
I don't like the look of Rb8, so let's get that b pawn out of danger. I feel we've lost the initiative.
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Why do you think we ever had an initiative?
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14. B4 nice to see a move i thought of as being "this is what i would do" be something people are voting on i want to close off that queen's left side(for us) diagonal.
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WGM means Woman GM
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Has anyone else read jfazz analysis? Because if you plan on voting on the next move you should.
I vote 14.Rad1
+ Show Spoiler +If we play 14.b4 we are going into "reaction mode" which we shouldn't right now. We still have a chance to get a better position before we start fending off black's attacks.I honestly feel that our last move wasn't very strong and playing 14.b4 would be our first mistake this game.
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lightman quick question. What website or program are you using for the board? I'm having a hard time finding someway to play against myself without having to play all 14 moves again every time I want to try out a new move or visualize a proposed line.
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For what it is worth, I just have my home analysis board set up in the game position
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I change my vote to RaD1.
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c5,e5 Rad1 and black cant play d6 if c5,d6 Q f4 we MUST control centar coment
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i am a fide master with 1 im norm .. i would be happy to play a match as well
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and iread someone here thinks kramnik greatest player of all time .. is that a joke ?
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