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Nyeh, the only (though granted, most important) difficulty of Trist is knowing how to Trist vs Trist solo mid. Can't do it, can't understand it, much props to the people that can consistently win. She's pretty simple hero to use otherwise, IMO, with obvious deficiencies and obvious ways to overcome them - you just need to know when you can kill something and when you better gtfo :p And if you need to gtfo then you just jump and/or flash.
Edit:
I guess yeah, you get 15% off the DoT and her ult, but in general you'll probably never notice, is my point, 'tis all, hahah.
Edit2:
Also I'm a fan of Cleanse/Flash on every ranged DPS hero. Having Cleanse is better than randomly getting caught by a gank late in the game and costing your team the game. Particularly if you run Zerker Greaves, which I still wouldn't recommend. It's especially important on a Trist because if a game does reach this point, it probably means the rest of your team is underfarmed, so if you die to something you really shouldn't have died to, your team is screwed. Nowadays I actually see 90% of ranged DPS carry some combination of Cleanse/Flash/Ghost.
Edit3:
If we're going to talk about Suff's guide though, I see a lot of Trists rush BT, mainly because they open Vamp. I'm not a fan of opening Vamp, as it pushes lanes (you have to keep attacking to make it worthwhile), and lifesteal is as a whole pretty crappy early-game. The Trists I see rushing BT, well they make up most of the Trists I see, and they fall under the "liability to team for 25 minutes" category. They're really freakin monstrous late-game, particularly when they're defending their nexus for 20 minutes, but I've almost never lost a game where I've forced a Trist to defend nexus after 25-30 minutes. I'm sure most people will agree. It's why I mention Trist has to hope her team doesn't force a teamfight too fast (BT -> teamfight = not much effect), but that's pretty tough against a decent team ;p
I'm much more a fan of Trists rushing something like Cleaver if you have to, but I've also seen some rush Last Whisper, sort of like Twitch, after opening Long Sword. You could also open Boots instead, as the improved moment speed + your range (particularly solo mid) makes you pretty nasty against everything but a mirror. I'm sure Doran is great for Mirrors because of the improved health, though. Not sure I'd take Blade over Shield in such a case.
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tbh, the main thing that pulls me towards having cleanse over flash or ghost is Ashe dittoing mid. That and it's CD is way more manageable.
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Trist should crush Ashe solo mid 1v1, so I don't think Cleanse matters in that matchup, until late-game etc. when you get Arrowed and killed before it wears off o/ Which is more-or-less my point about Cleanse anyways.
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On April 15 2010 00:21 Southlight wrote:
Trist should crush Ashe solo mid 1v1, so I don't think Cleanse matters in that matchup, until late-game etc. when you get Arrowed and killed before it wears off o/ Which is more-or-less my point about Cleanse anyways.
well, I was talking about Ashe dittoing... ya know, like, Ashe vs. Ashe, where it gets really stupid at level 6, and if you have cleanse, you just win.
but anyway, how exactly does Trist crush Ashe solo mid? I know I've seen you say that before but it always throws me off cause I thought Ashe out ranged her early and it's always seemed to me that Volley is better than what Trist has to offer early.
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Volley does about the same damage as Jump, and they both have similar cooldowns (ie. you'll cast both once before the other dies), so Ashe's volley advantage is nullified. Ashe's range advantage is sooooooooo miniscule that it's nearly impossible to take advantage of it against a decent Trist player. Couple this with, at level 2, a Trist whipping out the active on Explosive to prevent you from healing and you're simply getting out-dps'd from the get-go. At level 3, assuming you go something like E W Q on Trist, you'll wreck Ashe in terms of damage, because Ashe's only "damage output" comes from Volley, which you'll cast like, once, and does like 1/5 the damage of active Explosive.
At level 6 you're basically looking at Ashe having ~400 damage spike from ult + volley + attack, while Trist also has like a 400 damage spike from ult + jump + active, and then you're looking at who has stronger raw DPS, which we just covered before.
Health 359 (79)
Mana 173 (27)
Base Damage 43.44 (2.85)
Move Speed 300
Armor 9.3 (3.4)
Dodge 0 (0)
Crit Chance 3.45 (0.55)
Spell Block 30 (0)
Attack Speed 0.66 (3.1%)
Health Regen 0.9 (0.11)
Mana Regen 0.76 (0.04)
Range 600
Health 415 (82)
Mana 193 (32)
Base Damage 42 (3)
Move Speed 310
Armor 15 (3)
Dodge 0 (0)
Crit Chance 3.02 (0.48)
Spell Block 30 (0)
Attack Speed 0.65 (3.1%)
Health Regen 1.02 (0.13)
Mana Regen 0.79 (0.05)
Range 550
The second one's Trist. You're basically fighting someone you have a miniscule range advantage of (after a few levels), who has more HP, moves faster, has more armor, and has a (tiny) regen advantage.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
an easy way to tell if some is bad is by looking at their summoner skills. If you are going to play a fucking carry, pick up carry summoner spells! I see too many twitch/tristana/etc with exhaust/ignite/etc... Ghost/cleanse/flash are your friends.
I play a different style of tristana but that one is okay. Side-lane tristana picking up madred's/mallet/stark's is my personal favorite
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^^^ I agree with Brees' Trist. I prefer the side-lane Trists. You aren't as big a liability as a solo-mid Trist, you still farm well, and getting support/DPS items make you more useful earlier, so you don't leave your team out to dry while you farm.
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ehhhhhhh, the thing about volley vs. rocket jump is that you can harass effectively with volley, whereas rocket jumping to harass will typically result in you eating a bunch of creep aggro = not effective early harass. I'll take your word on it that Ashe loses because of base stats (rofl, why the fuck does Trist spawn with so much HP!?), but my theory crafting leads me to believe that Ashe should be able to harass Trist enough to keep a noticeable HP edge before the shit hits the fan.
I actually had to fight a pantheon mid with Ashe yesterday and found that matchup to be shockingly annoying. His fucking shield makes it so hard to utilize your auto-crits for harassing, and his jump + burst combos make your life difficult.
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If you're actively avoiding Volley, you can avoid almost all volley shots. The point is that with Ashe it's nearly impossible to harass Trist without pushing the lane, and if you push the lane you give Trist free reign "go after to you," given that you have to traverse quite a long way to return to safety. Or, you miss out on exp. After a few levels, Trist's range basically matches yours, so you literally only have Volley. Meanwhile Trist has three damage skills, making her outdamage you like 2:1. She can, and will, keep you out of exp range, especially if you've foolishly pushed the creep once.
So my experience 1v1ing a decent Trist goes like,
level 1: can't volley Trist because she hides behind creep, and can't volley creep cuz I'll push it into tower within the next 2 waves. I used to also try to harass with autoattack but it's not really worth it because you'll trade one big crit for creep hits, plus you push the creep as the enemy creep stop attacking yours.
level 2: doesn't matter what the second skill you get is, because frost doesn't stop Trist from leaping to kill you, and gold doesn't help you in the immediate future. Meanwhile you are definitely out-classed because Volley < Range + Explosive, at this point Trist will start pushing creep though, so you can Volley creeps. If you're like me, though, you let the Trist push the creep, so you can tower hug >_<
level 3: level 2 volley wheehooh except the situ hasn't changed cuz NOW SHE GOT Q.
level 4: you're getting even more outclassed as every level increases Trist's range, hp, armor, and skill-based damage.
level 5: see level 3
level 6: assuming you're both still somehow at full hp (doubtful) you're looking at nuking for half of Trist's hp while Trist can nuke you for half your hp, too, while outputting twice as much damage as you thanks to Q. This does not change for the next 12 levels.
And so on and so forth.
Of course, if you stupidly push the creep into her tower at like level 3 or 4, she'll simply run up, leap at you, and start killing you. You now have the option of trying to beat a Trist level 3/4 with Ashe doing 1/2 her damage (Q) and not really being able to use a potion to heal you for much (thanks to active) or trying to run all the way back to tower.
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suffeli
Finland772 Posts
Updated the guide. Atlanta opens up with vamp. scepter. The best part is that with lifesteal you can do some jungling if laning isn't an option. Vamp scepter opening works well, but item builds are not set in stone... I think everyone should be smart enough to change their builds according how the game is going. ex. If you are sidelaning you shouldn't probably rush to a B.F. since your money flow isn't that good.
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I'd like to get a vent for LoL, and teamliquid.
Is there one already?
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soooo I just realized how stupid pantheon can be early game when I was arguing with someone on LoL forums...
Say I went with a 21/9/0 mastery setup, armor pen marks + flat damage quints, open long sword + heartseeker. My base damage would start at 71 and I'd be piecing 24 armor. Heartseeker does 18% of my AD + 6 damage/hit, double vs. champions, and hits 5 times. That means full heartseeker at level 1 would do almost 200 damage, and guarantee an auto-crit when they went low on life. Imagine if I laned with an AP Sion who opened Stun and has ignite... If an opponent got anywhere near our bushes, we could probably just kill them instantly :p
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On April 15 2010 03:37 xLethargicax wrote:
I'd like to get a vent for LoL, and teamliquid.
Is there one already?
Chromium.typefrag.com, port 11005, no password is the generic TL vent. Usually we're somewhere in Other Games.
I feel like Pantheon is somewhat underrated. He's got the same problems as every melee DPS, but he can do heavy AoE damage, which is a big plus.
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On April 15 2010 03:51 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:37 xLethargicax wrote:
I'd like to get a vent for LoL, and teamliquid.
Is there one already? Chromium.typefrag.com, port 11005, no password is the generic TL vent. Usually we're somewhere in Other Games. I feel like Pantheon is somewhat underrated. He's got the same problems as every melee DPS, but he can do heavy AoE damage, which is a big plus.
his biggest problem IMO is how bad his base stats scale... they're pretty horrendous. That and basically your entire value in teamfights is heartseeker + a utility stun, which means a single well placed stun renders you both useless and dead. He just desperately needs his ult to be faster and his spear chucking to scale to end game better and his HP scaling to be jacked up. They have stated in the TR forums that he's slated for a buff in the not too distant future.
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He also suffers from "I'm a melee DPS that's not named Jax, hear me ro- *squish*"
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they could fix that by making his shield trigger on every attack rather than every 4... and have it block spells... an uh, still jack up his base HP... there we go, fair and balanced!
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What is the password on LoL ventrilo?
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On April 15 2010 03:51 Tooplark wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 03:37 xLethargicax wrote:
I'd like to get a vent for LoL, and teamliquid.
Is there one already? Chromium.typefrag.com, port 11005, no password is the generic TL vent. Usually we're somewhere in Other Games. I feel like Pantheon is somewhat underrated. He's got the same problems as every melee DPS, but he can do heavy AoE damage, which is a big plus.
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pripple
Finland1714 Posts
Yay new euro top 500, made it to top 100, Ashe too imba!
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EPT
