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Lol big fan of Taj eh? I usually have that theory with tier lists and start practicing a low tier character until I play somebody good and just go back to peach/jiggs.
I'm actually not a big Taj fan. I respect his play a lot, but I don't like his style. Everybody says that, though, whenever I mention that I play Mewtwo it's like, "TAJ?!" It's too bad he retired since his games were so damn entertaining.
...And remember that Jigglypuff and Peach were both considered Mid to Low tier at one point. Now the two best (not that this is official, but considered to be true by many) players in the world are none other than Puff and Peach.
All it takes is a really great player developing the character into something that it wasn't before. I am starting to see lot of people using the same basic strategies for Fox, Marth and Falco every game. It's like they don't even know why they are using that style of gameplay, they just see the pros doing it and observe that it's effective, so they copy it outright. This has led to a decay in SSBM play I think. SC has the same problem. I play who I want to play because it's more fun. But I also think that the game has become balanced well enough with techniques, that people could literally play any character and do well. All Mewtwo needs is a little time, a smart person behind the controls and I think he could shine.
"they don't even know why" "they observe that it's effective" effective = good good = win that is why
listen, i support low tiers and all, and i like playing mewtwo, ylink, pika, etc., but what you have to realize is the low tiers are low tier not because "nobody good plays them so they haven't had a chance to shine", but because they are for the most part inherently flawed and do not possess the qualities needed to keep up in today's smash metagame. mewtwo for example has a huge hitbox, very lightweight, no reliable kill moves except grabs, and an extremely slow tech. for these kinds of characters, the best they can do in the hands of even the most skilled ____ player of all time is become decent and semi-competitive, but still they will lose out to an equally skilled player playing a higher tiered character. that's the entire concept behind tier lists.
it's true that some bisu-esque metagame shifts can happen, as with jiggs and possibly peach, but those characters just aren't comparable to any low-tier in terms of inherent advantages. nobody is going to suddenly overcome mewtwo's utter rapeage at the hands of marth and that is that :\
Yeah... I guess you missed what I meant by that? I never said winning wasn't good. I never asked why people copy the play-styles of the pros. I said that people who imitate pros aren't helping to evolve the game, they are pushing it into a state of decay. So please don't argue with things I haven't said. I know why people do it, but it still bothers me.
And to say that a character is flawed because you can't play him/her like you would a Sheik or Marth doesn't mean they are bad. Yes, Mewtwo is large but also light (which sucks hard) and yes, almost all of his kill moves are slow and very situational. But does that mean that overall he is worse? I say no, because you obviously are not looking at his good points.
Mewtwo has the second best recovery in the game. Do you realize what that means? It means his edge game is ridiculous. I have punished so many Marths because of their mostly vertical recovery and their inability to cope with Mewtwo's powerful air game. This is where a Mewtwo can outshine a Marth, albeit, this is a very hard situation to get to since Marth basically does everything else better than Mewtwo, except for Marth's lack of a ranged attack. But I have never seen anybody actually work toward developing him this way, so there might be other areas where he can fight toe-to-toe with Marth as well. Starting to see my reasoning here? I'm not just a clueless fanboy, I really do see potential in every character.
You can't combo with Mewtwo like you would other characters as well, either. I call this 'Ground Comboing' because almost all of the combos I use with Mewtwo involve me keeping my opponent on the ground rather than throwing them up in the air and using his F-air. Again, that is how you would use Falco or Fox since they are not floaty. They have time to land, jump back up and string together utter rapage combos before their opponent even hits the ground. That is their strength. Mewtwo has very little strength in combos, to be honest. So I don't play him that way, I try to keep good spacing and just pressure my opponent with tilts and throws until I can unleash his devastating edge game. The way I am able to do that is with his unbelievably good wavedashing. To say that he has slow tech is just ignorance of the character. Mewtwo doesn't even walk for fucks sake, he floats! How can his tech not be anything but fluid and quick? He has the third best wavedash in the game! This allows me too constantly pressure my opponents by timing my attacks and holding my ground when I need to. I take pride in my use of the shield, because I NEED to know how to use it as Mewtwo. And I could go on and on, for almost every character. Every character has strengths and weaknesses, some more and some less.
I realize that to be world champ with Mewtwo you would have to develop near godlike skills, your room for error would be slim to none. But NEVER say "that is that", because you are just showing your lack of creativity and your close-mindedness. Anybody can learn to play a Marth, but very few can play a Mewtwo. Marth is just too damn hard to punish. I would say that, if you wanted to beat a Marth you would be allowed one mistake for every ten of his. So what if neither of you make mistakes? Well then, that is the way you would play a character like Mewtwo. And you would use his very few advantages to bring you victory. And this is essentially what the tier list represents. How well you would have to be at the game in order to succeed with any given character.
Open your mind my friend, play with who you find to be the most fun and I garuantee you will enjoy the game more. Look for ways to improve beyond what others have done, find your own style. I believe that SSBMelee is deep enough that we haven't fully realized it's potential. To say that just because it has been evolving for near 7-8 years it is near it's peak... well, what are you basing that off of? Is it too 'old' to continue to expand? (Goddamnit, look at chess! How long have we been playing that? And the basis for chess is so simple its mind-boggling) In reality nobody can say when it will stop evolving until it actually does, or people stop playing it. The latter being more probable in my opinion.
Bacon already said basically what I had in mind, so I guess I'll just mention a few things...
Open your mind my friend, play with who you find to be the most fun and I guarantee you will enjoy the game more.
lol, I guess you think I'm some elitist 'zomg fox' guy who only plays the top tiers? I've mained Mewtwo, Y.Link, and Pikachu before
To say that he has slow tech is just ignorance of the character. Mewtwo doesn't even walk for fucks sake, he floats! How can his tech not be anything but fluid and quick?
Mewtwo does have a slow tech, I'm guessing you don't know what a tech is or something, since you mentioned floating for some reason...
So what if neither of you make mistakes? Well then, that is the way you would play a character like Mewtwo. And you would use his very few advantages to bring you victory.
Even though
Marth basically does everything else better than Mewtwo
and neither of you make mistakes, you somehow win? How do you even presume you're going to get a theoretically perfectly-spacing Marth off the stage to "unleash your powerful edgeguarding"?
So I don't play him that way, I try to keep good spacing and just pressure my opponent with tilts and throws until I can unleash his devastating edge game.
Anything Mewtwo can do, some other high tier can do better while also being better at a ton of other areas. Which is the point.
---
You obviously do acknowledge the disadvantageous position any Mewtwo player is in against Marth, due to the inherent traits of the two characters. So I'm not really sure how you're trying to argue against the fact that "they [low tiers] are for the most part inherently flawed and do not possess the qualities needed to keep up in today's smash metagame". :\
Mewtwo does not have slow tech... wtf man. Unless you are talking about wall-teching? His wavedashes are just as fast as everybody else's and his L-cancels are fine. His air-dodging is superb in general actually. And the fact that you think floating has nothing to do with teching shows your ignorance actually, not mine. What the hell do you think makes a great wavedash, exactly?
I'm not even going to go into this anymore since your arguments make no sense half the time and I don't think you actually read through my 'essay' there...
and neither of you make mistakes, you somehow win? How do you even presume you're going to get a theoretically perfectly-spacing Marth off the stage to "unleash your powerful edgeguarding"?
Uh... I told you how I 'presume' to do it... go back and actually read my post, damn it.
Marth has no ranged attack. Marth's range is similiar to Mewtwo's, therefore I can hold a Marth at bay simply by mirroring his stance. Did you forgot that I can dodge? Because yeah, Mewtwo can dodge. Therefore, I can wait for an opening and strike with my quick F-tilt and D-tilt (and yes, they are just as quick as Marth's). Mewtwo can wavedash very well and with his teleport ability can enter and leave battle extremely well, Marth would be forced to chase me and at some point leave himself open. Couple that with the two things I just mentioned, Mewtwo has two things on Marth that can help him to win that fight. Those are just two, I'm not going into anything else since I am certain you are getting none of this. Once Marth is near the edge all he needs is to be thrown and he is in a very bad position. I can't break it down for you anymore man.
lol, I guess you think I'm some elitist 'zomg fox' guy who only plays the top tiers? I've mained Mewtwo, Y.Link, and Pikachu before
You just mentioned three characters that you have 'mained'... Do you even know what you mean when you say you 'main' a character? I have a feeling you didn't even begin to unravel the intricacies of Mewtwo's play.
Anything Mewtwo can do, some other high tier can do better while also being better at a ton of other areas. Which is the point.
No the point is that Mewtwo doesn't have to be the BEST in ANYTHING to be played well. He has a unique combination of strengths that come together to make him powerful in certain areas. And by 'areas' I mean general game play, not specifics like throwing or approach. Mewtwo only has to be better than his opponent at one thing to win a match, theoretically. Against Marth (to bring this full circle) it is his off-stage game and throws.
And that quote you whipped out at the end there... I have no idea where you got that. And that wasn't what I've been arguing against. I've been arguing that the tier-list is BULLSHIT.
Some characters are easier to play because of certain qualities, such as speed or their ability to combo well. But every character has at least one strength against any-given character. That's why you see pros play 'lower-tier' characters against 'high-tier' characters every so often. Such as the Ice Climbers against Sheik. They rape Sheik. Period. It's not even hard to understand why the rape Sheik. My issue is, if these characters are said to be worse, then why do they each have these odd, one off match-ups where they can own? It doesn't make sense. I don't know how many times I have to say it...
Every character has areas they are good in, every character can beat any other character if they are being played at the same level. You just have to know how to exploit their strengths. You just have to improve their metagame. And all the tier-list is doing is showing which characters have developed the furthest because they are being played the most. And they are being played the most because of the tier list. Get it?
This made me laugh. That's the point of the tier list in the first place. Nobody is saying you can't win with the worst characters; but it's an uphill battle and you most certainly wont be giving yourself an advantage. Could the best player in the world be a DK player? Sure; but he's not right now. "Perfect" playing is not attainable realistically; so a class that has more room for mistakes is better.
Playing a mid/low/bottom tier character is fine and that is anybody's choice. However, they're there for a reason and unless a big shift occurs it's unlikely anybody will be suddenly changing their minds and looking to break the meta game with pichu.
For the record; I main as Ganon and Yoshi so I'm familiar with the joys of playing outside the box.
All I'm saying is that this 'big shift' shouldn't have to happen because the characters should not be ranked up against each other, with some being first and some being last. It's a flawed system.
You think Fox has a lot of room for mistakes? He does against slow characters for sure. But if you played a DK well enough to get only a few hits off, but avoid most of the damage the Fox would be dealing you would be golden. It's as simple as that. Use DK's strengths, his ability to inflict massive damage in a small time frame. Fox could never match that. But people aren't playing DK's anymore at a high level because they are convinced he sucks. DK isn't bad, they are.
...and holy shit I apologize for the length. I said I wasn't going to go into it but you guys baited me too hard. I just love this game. And I think the tier list is ruining the competitive scene is all.
@Gunslinger: Not going to jump in an argument as I don't feel like reading walls of text, but by tech, he means the actual techroll, where you press L to roll when touching the ground in a tumbling state. He didn't mean tech skill in general.
Kyuukyuu and I decided to meet up and, inspired by Zoler's vod, we decided to record a few of our matches. They turned out pretty good actually, quality isn't half bad either. Commentary is mostly us, sometimes other people in room just talking.
Such as the Ice Climbers against Sheik. They rape Sheik. Period. It's not even hard to understand why the rape Sheik.
imo matchup is in Sheik's favor or at least certainly not "ICs rape Sheik". If this were a year ago I'd follow this up with more, but I'm going to say that Sheik has basically the same tools vs ICs as Peach does. She gets hit a bit harder by IC stuff but not enough to make the matchup IC favored.
Such as the Ice Climbers against Sheik. They rape Sheik. Period. It's not even hard to understand why the rape Sheik.
imo matchup is in Sheik's favor or at least certainly not "ICs rape Sheik". If this were a year ago I'd follow this up with more, but I'm going to say that Sheik has basically the same tools vs ICs as Peach does. She gets hit a bit harder by IC stuff but not enough to make the matchup IC favored.
So yeah, why do ICs rape Sheik? Enlighten me.
Can't (edit: ) chain grab tech chase b/c the other IC will just smash shiek
On November 15 2009 13:17 crate wrote: Random thought from my 2 seconds of browsing:
Such as the Ice Climbers against Sheik. They rape Sheik. Period. It's not even hard to understand why the rape Sheik.
imo matchup is in Sheik's favor or at least certainly not "ICs rape Sheik". If this were a year ago I'd follow this up with more, but I'm going to say that Sheik has basically the same tools vs ICs as Peach does. She gets hit a bit harder by IC stuff but not enough to make the matchup IC favored.
So yeah, why do ICs rape Sheik? Enlighten me.
Can't chain grab b/c the other IC will just smash shiek
Doesn't matter. Peach can't CG either, and she wins vs ICs (unless you doubt this?). (as an aside, grabbing vs IC is very risky anyway, since a whiff = you get grabbed = you die, with anyone)
Sheik can't cg marth, so she loses there too?
edit to your edit: You want to kill the npc IC anyway in my experience. Going after Popo always gets me killed; going after Nana has worked much better. Sheik can cg a solo ice climber.
edit: in case it's relevant I'm a Sheik main and used to be a Peach main before I realized Sheik was so much easier
On November 15 2009 10:40 GunSlinger wrote: Mewtwo does not have slow tech... wtf man. Unless you are talking about wall-teching? His wavedashes are just as fast as everybody else's and his L-cancels are fine. His air-dodging is superb in general actually. And the fact that you think floating has nothing to do with teching shows your ignorance actually, not mine. What the hell do you think makes a great wavedash, exactly?
I'm not even going to go into this anymore since your arguments make no sense half the time and I don't think you actually read through my 'essay' there...
and neither of you make mistakes, you somehow win? How do you even presume you're going to get a theoretically perfectly-spacing Marth off the stage to "unleash your powerful edgeguarding"?
Uh... I told you how I 'presume' to do it... go back and actually read my post, damn it.
Marth has no ranged attack. Marth's range is similiar to Mewtwo's, therefore I can hold a Marth at bay simply by mirroring his stance. Did you forgot that I can dodge? Because yeah, Mewtwo can dodge. Therefore, I can wait for an opening and strike with my quick F-tilt and D-tilt (and yes, they are just as quick as Marth's). Mewtwo can wavedash very well and with his teleport ability can enter and leave battle extremely well, Marth would be forced to chase me and at some point leave himself open. Couple that with the two things I just mentioned, Mewtwo has two things on Marth that can help him to win that fight. Those are just two, I'm not going into anything else since I am certain you are getting none of this. Once Marth is near the edge all he needs is to be thrown and he is in a very bad position. I can't break it down for you anymore man.
lol, I guess you think I'm some elitist 'zomg fox' guy who only plays the top tiers? I've mained Mewtwo, Y.Link, and Pikachu before
You just mentioned three characters that you have 'mained'... Do you even know what you mean when you say you 'main' a character? I have a feeling you didn't even begin to unravel the intricacies of Mewtwo's play.
Anything Mewtwo can do, some other high tier can do better while also being better at a ton of other areas. Which is the point.
No the point is that Mewtwo doesn't have to be the BEST in ANYTHING to be played well. He has a unique combination of strengths that come together to make him powerful in certain areas. And by 'areas' I mean general game play, not specifics like throwing or approach. Mewtwo only has to be better than his opponent at one thing to win a match, theoretically. Against Marth (to bring this full circle) it is his off-stage game and throws.
And that quote you whipped out at the end there... I have no idea where you got that. And that wasn't what I've been arguing against. I've been arguing that the tier-list is BULLSHIT.
Some characters are easier to play because of certain qualities, such as speed or their ability to combo well. But every character has at least one strength against any-given character. That's why you see pros play 'lower-tier' characters against 'high-tier' characters every so often. Such as the Ice Climbers against Sheik. They rape Sheik. Period. It's not even hard to understand why the rape Sheik. My issue is, if these characters are said to be worse, then why do they each have these odd, one off match-ups where they can own? It doesn't make sense. I don't know how many times I have to say it...
Every character has areas they are good in, every character can beat any other character if they are being played at the same level. You just have to know how to exploit their strengths. You just have to improve their metagame. And all the tier-list is doing is showing which characters have developed the furthest because they are being played the most. And they are being played the most because of the tier list. Get it?
This made me laugh. That's the point of the tier list in the first place. Nobody is saying you can't win with the worst characters; but it's an uphill battle and you most certainly wont be giving yourself an advantage. Could the best player in the world be a DK player? Sure; but he's not right now. "Perfect" playing is not attainable realistically; so a class that has more room for mistakes is better.
Playing a mid/low/bottom tier character is fine and that is anybody's choice. However, they're there for a reason and unless a big shift occurs it's unlikely anybody will be suddenly changing their minds and looking to break the meta game with pichu.
For the record; I main as Ganon and Yoshi so I'm familiar with the joys of playing outside the box.
All I'm saying is that this 'big shift' shouldn't have to happen because the characters should not be ranked up against each other, with some being first and some being last. It's a flawed system.
You think Fox has a lot of room for mistakes? He does against slow characters for sure. But if you played a DK well enough to get only a few hits off, but avoid most of the damage the Fox would be dealing you would be golden. It's as simple as that. Use DK's strengths, his ability to inflict massive damage in a small time frame. Fox could never match that. But people aren't playing DK's anymore at a high level because they are convinced he sucks. DK isn't bad, they are.
...and holy shit I apologize for the length. I said I wasn't going to go into it but you guys baited me too hard. I just love this game. And I think the tier list is ruining the competitive scene is all.
Mewtwo's fun, but his weight's a big problem, compared to marth, sheik, falcon, falco, fox, ganon... He doesn't have that are you freaking dead yet? factor.
His dodge is takes longer than every other dodge, I believe. While this can be useful, a fast l canceler can recover faster than you. Except for his back air, marth has more range in the air, and mewtwos tilts don't knock back far enough to get into an easy edge guard game. He can get rack up some nice damage early on with his tilts though. I like playing him wall of pain style.
Mewtwos back throw is his reliable kill, but unfortunately they can often directional influence it upward, and once again, those heavy characters can last awhile up there.
Smash is going really good in Sweden right now. A smash association has been founded and we are going to organize lot's of stuff in the future. This is still secret but a large international tournament will be announced in Sweden very soon.
And now this friday it's time for SVAR8! (SVAR7 was the first smash tournament I attended to), I'll take lot's of pics for you guys! All the videos will also be uploaded to the SwedishSmash youtube channel.
idk, imo ICs vs Sheik isn't as severely imba as it was thought to be back in like 2006. its not a great matchup for sure but it's not "chu vs rob$ @ GS2" horrible anymore
edit:
Mewtwo does not have slow tech... wtf man. Unless you are talking about wall-teching? His wavedashes are just as fast as everybody else's and his L-cancels are fine. His air-dodging is superb in general actually. And the fact that you think floating has nothing to do with teching shows your ignorance actually, not mine. What the hell do you think makes a great wavedash, exactly?
I'm not even going to go into this anymore since your arguments make no sense half the time and I don't think you actually read through my 'essay' there...
The inertia a character has when getting hit and how 'floaty' they are has a big influence on their teching abilities... so what are you laughing at exactly? This entire thread you have not offered a single argument to defend your stance, you just keep quoting me and saying I'm wrong or just posting 'lol'. It's like talking to a rock.
Considering the huge amounts of text I offered explaing my point of view. You can at least tell me how I'm wrong here instead of being a douchebag.
Mewtwo has a very slow "roll" and his sidestep is also slow to the point of ineffectiveness. His tech roll when he hits the ground after being attacked is also very slow. Many other characters (e.g. Fox, Shiek, C. Falcon, etc.) can use these moves with much more effectiveness. That's one thing that puts Mewtwo at a disadvantage to other characters.
It would be very unlikely for all the characters to have the same potential, and in fact they don't. Just take a look at the best mewtwo player in the world vs the best marth player in the world, and mewtwo's strengths and weaknesses become obvious.
I'm all for playing lower-tier characters and taking them to higher plateaus than anyone else has been able to. In fact, arguably the best ssbm player in the world right now, Mango, is a jigglypuff player! Mango consistently destroys "top tiered" characters, foxes, falcos, sheiks, marths despite being at a massive disadvantage against those characters according to matchup charts.
Evidently, skill advantage is far more important than character advantage. However to insist that all characters have equal potential is to delude yourself.
Comparing M2k to Taj is just stupid. Taj also plays Marth and if you were to compare these two player's Marth skills you would see just how much more skill M2k has. Taj has also stated that he was extremely nervous during these matches and did a lot of things wrong.
Bad example...
...and Mango IS the best in the world right now. :D
Jigglypuff is a space animal killer. It takes some skill to survive yourself, but I wouldn't call it a massive disadvantage to fox and falco.
I think the video was a fair assessment of how hard it is for mewtwo to get an opening, how he can't kill... If you up b in marth can grab you faster than you can recover. It's hard to charge in if he spaces his aerials. Mewtwo could have played better, but he would still have a lot of trouble dealing with marth.
EPT
All the videos will also be uploaded to the SwedishSmash youtube channel.
