EPTSmash Bros. Melee General Discussion - Page 7
| Forum Index > General Games |
We have created an irc channel (#tl-smash on Quakenet) for people to find others to play with on Dolphin or just to chat about Smash. Feel free to join! | ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
| ||
|
Antifate
United States415 Posts
| ||
|
BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
Both you and marth need to get the basic mechanics down - you are missing TONS of oppourtunities both of you to punish each other, and both of you are using lots of compromise play (like rolling around for movement, or using staple dash attacks as a form of approach because you probabl'y arnt comfortable enough with full hop/short hop variations of needle approaches or bait approaches etc) Marth seems completely unable to combo you, and doesn't know the basic marth vs shiek combos Shiek has a lot to work on in terms of approaches - approaching with shiek is ihmo, one of the hardest characters to do vs equivelant "C+" or better opponents but there is a lot more than just dash attack. Also in terms of edgeguarding, shiek misses a ton of needle oppourtunities to edgeguard Both players need to use wavedashing / crouch-dashing as a form of spacing and movement over rolling when you arn't trying to dodge attacks, and for shiek in particular you need WAY more follow up moves on approach, same for marth for eg - fullhop aerials into needles or needles into landcancel'ed jabs or grabs | ||
|
Mazer
Canada1086 Posts
| ||
|
Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On November 12 2009 09:11 Mazer wrote: Surprised so many people take Falco over Fox... Then again, I don't play at a 'competitive' level so maybe I just don't know Falco too well. Eh not really, fox is played more than on average. He's #1 on the tier list for a reason hehe. | ||
|
GunSlinger
614 Posts
Well, I'm starting to play really hardcore these days. I played at least once a week with my buddies for about 2 - 3 years now, but I've just realized how far people can take it. I main Mewtwo (don't even mention that bullshit tier list) because frankly... he's the shit. I've started to develop a really careful style as opposed to my ultra-aggressive Falco days. I truly believe that his full potential hasn't been realized. As far as the 'pro' scene goes, I'm a huge fan of Mango. I was also impressed with Armada's play at Genesis, that kid has skills. | ||
|
laLAlA[uC]
Canada963 Posts
Probably one of the top smashers in Mississauga [Near Toronto]. Main as Marth, can off-race as Fox. | ||
|
snorlax
United States755 Posts
Active: Yes Location: SF Bay Area USA | ||
|
Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On November 12 2009 09:18 GunSlinger wrote: Wow, I'm so glad I found this thread! Well, I'm starting to play really hardcore these days. I played at least once a week with my buddies for about 2 - 3 years now, but I've just realized how far people can take it. I main Mewtwo (don't even mention that bullshit tier list) because frankly... he's the shit. I've started to develop a really careful style as opposed to my ultra-aggressive Falco days. I truly believe that his full potential hasn't been realized. As far as the 'pro' scene goes, I'm a huge fan of Mango. I was also impressed with Armada's play at Genesis, that kid has skills. Lol big fan of Taj eh? I usually have that theory with tier lists and start practicing a low tier character until I play somebody good and just go back to peach/jiggs. On November 12 2009 09:26 laLAlA[uC] wrote: I haven't played competitive smash since Ken was dominant. What ever happened to him? Saw him on survivor or something once. :/ Probably one of the top smashers in Mississauga [Near Toronto]. Main as Marth, can off-race as Fox. No idea what happened to Ken but he doesn't play atm. | ||
|
GunSlinger
614 Posts
On November 12 2009 09:45 resonance wrote: Lol big fan of Taj eh? I usually have that theory with tier lists and start practicing a low tier character until I play somebody good and just go back to peach/jiggs. I'm actually not a big Taj fan. I respect his play a lot, but I don't like his style. Everybody says that, though, whenever I mention that I play Mewtwo it's like, "TAJ?!" It's too bad he retired since his games were so damn entertaining. ...And remember that Jigglypuff and Peach were both considered Mid to Low tier at one point. Now the two best (not that this is official, but considered to be true by many) players in the world are none other than Puff and Peach. All it takes is a really great player developing the character into something that it wasn't before. I am starting to see lot of people using the same basic strategies for Fox, Marth and Falco every game. It's like they don't even know why they are using that style of gameplay, they just see the pros doing it and observe that it's effective, so they copy it outright. This has led to a decay in SSBM play I think. SC has the same problem. I play who I want to play because it's more fun. But I also think that the game has become balanced well enough with techniques, that people could literally play any character and do well. All Mewtwo needs is a little time, a smart person behind the controls and I think he could shine. | ||
|
traced
1739 Posts
On November 12 2009 09:18 resonance wrote: Eh not really, fox is played more than on average. He's #1 on the tier list for a reason hehe. it hasnt been updated for years though, right? when i left sheik and marth were probably the two best, closely followed by fox, then falco | ||
|
Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
On November 12 2009 11:32 GunSlinger wrote: I'm actually not a big Taj fan. I respect his play a lot, but I don't like his style. Everybody says that, though, whenever I mention that I play Mewtwo it's like, "TAJ?!" It's too bad he retired since his games were so damn entertaining. ...And remember that Jigglypuff and Peach were both considered Mid to Low tier at one point. Now the two best (not that this is official, but considered to be true by many) players in the world are none other than Puff and Peach. All it takes is a really great player developing the character into something that it wasn't before. I am starting to see lot of people using the same basic strategies for Fox, Marth and Falco every game. It's like they don't even know why they are using that style of gameplay, they just see the pros doing it and observe that it's effective, so they copy it outright. This has led to a decay in SSBM play I think. SC has the same problem. I play who I want to play because it's more fun. But I also think that the game has become balanced well enough with techniques, that people could literally play any character and do well. All Mewtwo needs is a little time, a smart person behind the controls and I think he could shine. Well yeah I do agree obv.. I mean look @ Armada, he's is pretty much the only very high level (i.e. players like mango, m2k, maybe shiz) Peach out there. Though Peach and Jiggs definitely weren't low tier @ some point though. Peach has pretty much always been high tier but Jiggs used to be mid-tier for a while. For older tier lists: http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_previous_tier_lists | ||
|
Kyuukyuu
Canada6263 Posts
On November 12 2009 11:32 GunSlinger wrote: I'm actually not a big Taj fan. I respect his play a lot, but I don't like his style. Everybody says that, though, whenever I mention that I play Mewtwo it's like, "TAJ?!" It's too bad he retired since his games were so damn entertaining. ...And remember that Jigglypuff and Peach were both considered Mid to Low tier at one point. Now the two best (not that this is official, but considered to be true by many) players in the world are none other than Puff and Peach. All it takes is a really great player developing the character into something that it wasn't before. I am starting to see lot of people using the same basic strategies for Fox, Marth and Falco every game. It's like they don't even know why they are using that style of gameplay, they just see the pros doing it and observe that it's effective, so they copy it outright. This has led to a decay in SSBM play I think. SC has the same problem. I play who I want to play because it's more fun. But I also think that the game has become balanced well enough with techniques, that people could literally play any character and do well. All Mewtwo needs is a little time, a smart person behind the controls and I think he could shine. "they don't even know why" "they observe that it's effective" effective = good good = win that is why listen, i support low tiers and all, and i like playing mewtwo, ylink, pika, etc., but what you have to realize is the low tiers are low tier not because "nobody good plays them so they haven't had a chance to shine", but because they are for the most part inherently flawed and do not possess the qualities needed to keep up in today's smash metagame. mewtwo for example has a huge hitbox, very lightweight, no reliable kill moves except grabs, and an extremely slow tech. for these kinds of characters, the best they can do in the hands of even the most skilled ____ player of all time is become decent and semi-competitive, but still they will lose out to an equally skilled player playing a higher tiered character. that's the entire concept behind tier lists. it's true that some bisu-esque metagame shifts can happen, as with jiggs and possibly peach, but those characters just aren't comparable to any low-tier in terms of inherent advantages. nobody is going to suddenly overcome mewtwo's utter rapeage at the hands of marth and that is that :\ | ||
|
Dullahan
United States248 Posts
 Can't believe I didn't see this until now Main: Puff (/Marth) Active: 06-early/mid 09. I was really into the tourney scene during college (currently grad school now), but all my Smash friends have graduated; I transitioned into SC last year since I was expecting this to happen... I still have a controller in my dorm room though for old time's sake/just in case Sadly, no one around here plays seriously... I tried to start a Smash Club at one point but it fizzled out. Oh well, CSL makes up for itLocation: New Haven, CT | ||
|
SaveYourSavior
United States1071 Posts
but while some underused characters moved up like dk and luigi, i think the tier list, except for the top 6's order is for the most part correct in this games 8th year, I feel that most characters and their matchups are getting mapped out more and more, horrible characters like kirby,ness will never have a chance for even middle tier | ||
|
CynanMachae
Canada1459 Posts
On October 19 2009 08:56 ThatGuy wrote: EDIT: I just remembered, there was another guy from TL that attended. He was wearing an MBC Hero sweater (and it looked pretty sweet lol). Hi Cynan! Lol, just happened to saw this, I'm quite late  Hey!Yea, I didn't enter Melee Singles, I was really out of practice cause I haven't playing at all the past year  I'll probably see what I can do for next tourney, now that I've got the means to come to some tourneys.Anyway: Name: Cynan Main: Samus/Falco Active: Never been competitive really, I used to do well with people I've played with but they stopped playing when Brawl came out so no more Melee really I've played quite a lot pre-SSBB tho.Location: Quebec City, Canada | ||
|
GunSlinger
614 Posts
On November 12 2009 13:14 Kyuukyuu wrote: "they don't even know why" "they observe that it's effective" effective = good good = win that is why listen, i support low tiers and all, and i like playing mewtwo, ylink, pika, etc., but what you have to realize is the low tiers are low tier not because "nobody good plays them so they haven't had a chance to shine", but because they are for the most part inherently flawed and do not possess the qualities needed to keep up in today's smash metagame. mewtwo for example has a huge hitbox, very lightweight, no reliable kill moves except grabs, and an extremely slow tech. for these kinds of characters, the best they can do in the hands of even the most skilled ____ player of all time is become decent and semi-competitive, but still they will lose out to an equally skilled player playing a higher tiered character. that's the entire concept behind tier lists. it's true that some bisu-esque metagame shifts can happen, as with jiggs and possibly peach, but those characters just aren't comparable to any low-tier in terms of inherent advantages. nobody is going to suddenly overcome mewtwo's utter rapeage at the hands of marth and that is that :\ Yeah... I guess you missed what I meant by that? I never said winning wasn't good. I never asked why people copy the play-styles of the pros. I said that people who imitate pros aren't helping to evolve the game, they are pushing it into a state of decay. So please don't argue with things I haven't said. I know why people do it, but it still bothers me. And to say that a character is flawed because you can't play him/her like you would a Sheik or Marth doesn't mean they are bad. Yes, Mewtwo is large but also light (which sucks hard) and yes, almost all of his kill moves are slow and very situational. But does that mean that overall he is worse? I say no, because you obviously are not looking at his good points. Mewtwo has the second best recovery in the game. Do you realize what that means? It means his edge game is ridiculous. I have punished so many Marths because of their mostly vertical recovery and their inability to cope with Mewtwo's powerful air game. This is where a Mewtwo can outshine a Marth, albeit, this is a very hard situation to get to since Marth basically does everything else better than Mewtwo, except for Marth's lack of a ranged attack. But I have never seen anybody actually work toward developing him this way, so there might be other areas where he can fight toe-to-toe with Marth as well. Starting to see my reasoning here? I'm not just a clueless fanboy, I really do see potential in every character. You can't combo with Mewtwo like you would other characters as well, either. I call this 'Ground Comboing' because almost all of the combos I use with Mewtwo involve me keeping my opponent on the ground rather than throwing them up in the air and using his F-air. Again, that is how you would use Falco or Fox since they are not floaty. They have time to land, jump back up and string together utter rapage combos before their opponent even hits the ground. That is their strength. Mewtwo has very little strength in combos, to be honest. So I don't play him that way, I try to keep good spacing and just pressure my opponent with tilts and throws until I can unleash his devastating edge game. The way I am able to do that is with his unbelievably good wavedashing. To say that he has slow tech is just ignorance of the character. Mewtwo doesn't even walk for fucks sake, he floats! How can his tech not be anything but fluid and quick? He has the third best wavedash in the game! This allows me too constantly pressure my opponents by timing my attacks and holding my ground when I need to. I take pride in my use of the shield, because I NEED to know how to use it as Mewtwo. And I could go on and on, for almost every character. Every character has strengths and weaknesses, some more and some less. I realize that to be world champ with Mewtwo you would have to develop near godlike skills, your room for error would be slim to none. But NEVER say "that is that", because you are just showing your lack of creativity and your close-mindedness. Anybody can learn to play a Marth, but very few can play a Mewtwo. Marth is just too damn hard to punish. I would say that, if you wanted to beat a Marth you would be allowed one mistake for every ten of his. So what if neither of you make mistakes? Well then, that is the way you would play a character like Mewtwo. And you would use his very few advantages to bring you victory. And this is essentially what the tier list represents. How well you would have to be at the game in order to succeed with any given character. Open your mind my friend, play with who you find to be the most fun and I garuantee you will enjoy the game more. Look for ways to improve beyond what others have done, find your own style. I believe that SSBMelee is deep enough that we haven't fully realized it's potential. To say that just because it has been evolving for near 7-8 years it is near it's peak... well, what are you basing that off of? Is it too 'old' to continue to expand? (Goddamnit, look at chess! How long have we been playing that? And the basis for chess is so simple its mind-boggling) In reality nobody can say when it will stop evolving until it actually does, or people stop playing it. The latter being more probable in my opinion. | ||
|
jpopidol
108 Posts
| ||
|
ThatGuy
Canada695 Posts
On November 12 2009 09:26 laLAlA[uC] wrote: I haven't played competitive smash since Ken was dominant. What ever happened to him? Saw him on survivor or something once. :/ Probably one of the top smashers in Mississauga [Near Toronto]. Main as Marth, can off-race as Fox. Hey, what's your SWF aka? I've never heard of you in the Sauga scene (but I haven't played Melee in Toronto for awhile). You do realize there's a tournament in Sauga this weekend right? | ||
|
I_Love_Bacon
United States5765 Posts
On November 13 2009 08:20 GunSlinger wrote: Every character has strengths and weaknesses, some more and some less. This made me laugh. That's the point of the tier list in the first place. Nobody is saying you can't win with the worst characters; but it's an uphill battle and you most certainly wont be giving yourself an advantage. Could the best player in the world be a DK player? Sure; but he's not right now. "Perfect" playing is not attainable realistically; so a class that has more room for mistakes is better. Playing a mid/low/bottom tier character is fine and that is anybody's choice. However, they're there for a reason and unless a big shift occurs it's unlikely anybody will be suddenly changing their minds and looking to break the meta game with pichu. For the record; I main as Ganon and Yoshi so I'm familiar with the joys of playing outside the box. | ||
| ||
