EPTGfree, where do you go to get matches? Irc#hisouten? I might get there to grab some games cause im pretty pissed off with sc2 ^^
Thanks everyone for the album reviews, im going to listen to them ^^
Touhou Discussion Thread - Page 25
| Forum Index > General Games |
|
Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
Gfree, where do you go to get matches? Irc#hisouten? I might get there to grab some games cause im pretty pissed off with sc2 ^^ Thanks everyone for the album reviews, im going to listen to them ^^ | ||
|
JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 27 2011 20:14 GFree wrote: I never said they were devoid of each other. I said the emphasis was on a certain aspect of the fighting game. Soku at high levels uses lots of unsafe open stagger strings. If you don't zone heavily to give a threat of punishing your opponent, it's easier to get out of. Meanwhile I FEEL that IaMP doesn't have as much of a zoning emphasis because you still use a more linear (forward-backward) style of movement. Plus since we're on the topic of saying things that are wrong, ''I have 50 spellcards I can use' is a rather cheap whack at Soku that's also completely wrong. The best players only have 4-6 spells per deck for the whole 3 rounds. The other 17 slots in the deck are given to system and skill cards. On average a player would use 1-2 alt skills so that's 4-8 slots taken because the skills play a big part to your style of play and you wanna draw it quickly. Then there's at least 2 Weather cards on average and 2 Spirit Talismans (bombs). The remaining limited space are usually given to character specific system cards, Komachi Coins for the defensive styled characters like Alice, Hakuroukens for aggressive characters, Magic Potions for the rushdown characters, so on and so forth. We aren't able to get any more bombs than we prepared for, nor are we able to get any more spells than we prepared for. So don't say you don't wanna start an argument and then throw a blatantly wrong accusation. We zone heavily because we aren't able to bomb out of a string, the only alternative option is a Border Escape which crushes 1/5 of our spirit bar for a really long time, and still can be punished. Okay so you FEEL that way, which is your opinion and I'll leave it at that I was exaggerating a bit with the 50 spell cards and maybe that wasn't warranted I think the options with the spellcards are great. They give you more options to work with but they give it to you randomly I feel this is not the best mechanism as this limits your options You have to work with what the game gives you, not what is the most appropriate at the time Same with weather You can argue that weather adds new elements to the game but like with the card system, its random You have to work around/with the weather the game gives you You can argue that this could be a way for players to adapt with what they are given, but I think this makes the game more random, which isn't a great factor to have in competitive gaming On Border Escape vs Bombs: Border Escape is a pretty easy way to get out of pressure Sure a 1/5th of your meter is disabled for 16 seconds, but at what cost? Once you Border Escape you completely fill back up your meter and basically escape all pressure Soku has a lot of airtight pressure strings and you can BE out of them The punishment for using Border Escape is minimal really unless your just worse than your opponent and keep getting caught in more pressure strings in which you'll lose regardless anyways. Sure you can be punished for using BE if your opponent expects it but what can't be? Also you can do these in the air which seriously reduces the risk of being in the air For IaMP bombs, you only have a limited stock (2) of them You have options of using them in offense, defense, or at neutral, which gives more versatility but risk in using them as well Defense would be similar to Border Escape except you can't do them in air and do not recover the rest of your spirit. They are used during blockstun and force a knockdown An opponent with bombs is much more scarier as you have to bait it and respect that he has an option to bomb you off if needs be. BE on the other hand can be used almost as much as you want as long as the player skill levels are fairly even You can argue this might be to increase zoning and de-emphasize pressure, but if the opponent realizes that he can use BE to escape pressure, they will actually respect zoning less On February 27 2011 20:57 Invictus wrote: Wow. Touhou thread bumped so much. And what a coincidence, i play sanae the most(but since i always play by myself im probably crap) Gfree, where do you go to get matches? Irc#hisouten? I might get there to grab some games cause im pretty pissed off with sc2 ^^ Thanks everyone for the album reviews, im going to listen to them ^^ Yup that's where they get matches Lot's of people here also are looking for matches, so you can probably PM them as well | ||
|
Rising_Phoenix
United States370 Posts
| ||
|
JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 28 2011 03:26 Rising_Phoenix wrote: Why isn't 12.5 on the front post? you mean 12.8? Probably OP just haven't updated | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 27 2011 20:57 Invictus wrote: Wow. Touhou thread bumped so much. And what a coincidence, i play sanae the most(but since i always play by myself im probably crap) Gfree, where do you go to get matches? Irc#hisouten? I might get there to grab some games cause im pretty pissed off with sc2 ^^ Thanks everyone for the album reviews, im going to listen to them ^^ Oh cool. #HisoutenSEA on Rizon. Most of us are from Singapore too. =) #Hisouten is good to join but mostly foreign players (LagSoku depending on your internet, maybe FrameSoku). #HisoutenSEA has about 3-4 active players every night but all in all closer to 6-7. And it's pretty much run by FearNagae who's currently the Rank 9 Iku player on Tenco. Here's somemore Sanae vids for you. My channel shows most of the players we have other than, Kyaakusan (really new and lags too much to be considered a real show of skills) and foreign players from US and this one guy from Cyprus. | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 28 2011 03:24 JSH wrote: Okay so you FEEL that way, which is your opinion and I'll leave it at that I was exaggerating a bit with the 50 spell cards and maybe that wasn't warranted I think the options with the spellcards are great. They give you more options to work with but they give it to you randomly I feel this is not the best mechanism as this limits your options You have to work with what the game gives you, not what is the most appropriate at the time Same with weather You can argue that weather adds new elements to the game but like with the card system, its random You have to work around/with the weather the game gives you You can argue that this could be a way for players to adapt with what they are given, but I think this makes the game more random, which isn't a great factor to have in competitive gaming On Border Escape vs Bombs: Border Escape is a pretty easy way to get out of pressure Sure a 1/5th of your meter is disabled for 16 seconds, but at what cost? Once you Border Escape you completely fill back up your meter and basically escape all pressure Soku has a lot of airtight pressure strings and you can BE out of them The punishment for using Border Escape is minimal really unless your just worse than your opponent and keep getting caught in more pressure strings in which you'll lose regardless anyways. Sure you can be punished for using BE if your opponent expects it but what can't be? Also you can do these in the air which seriously reduces the risk of being in the air For IaMP bombs, you only have a limited stock (2) of them You have options of using them in offense, defense, or at neutral, which gives more versatility but risk in using them as well Defense would be similar to Border Escape except you can't do them in air and do not recover the rest of your spirit. They are used during blockstun and force a knockdown An opponent with bombs is much more scarier as you have to bait it and respect that he has an option to bomb you off if needs be. BE on the other hand can be used almost as much as you want as long as the player skill levels are fairly even You can argue this might be to increase zoning and de-emphasize pressure, but if the opponent realizes that he can use BE to escape pressure, they will actually respect zoning less Yes, I'll say I FEEL that way because if we really want to go into comparisons it'll be too tedious. I'll agree that random deck systems are... odd in a fighting game but I treat it like MtG deck designing so I don't mind so much. WEATHER ISN'T RANDOM. Just gotta say this. Common misperception. It goes in a cycle. Sunny->Drizzle->Cloudy->BlueSky->Hail->SpringHaze->HeavyFog->Snow->SunShower->Sprinkle->Tempest->MountainVapor->RiverMist->Typhoon->Calm->DustStorm->DiamondDust->SunShower->Monsoon->Aurora The counter will go down the cycle every time a wallbounce or knockdown occurs, even during a weather. The upcoming weather appears where the timer normally would be, so for example, if your hand is empty, and the upcoming weather is MountainVapor, you may not want to engage your opponent because if a knockdown (or a wallbounce and knockdown, which will move the counter twice) you'll lose a weather that temporarily gives you a full hand. There is a lot of strategy to weather which is why people pack weather cards. Now on the BE vs Bombs. True it refills your meter, and there's tactical ways to use it. There's even cards and weathers that help bordering. BE isn't as safe as you make it sound. Frankly, when you BE, you don't end your opponent's momentum, it just buys you an opening that has only any use, if you're opponent doesn't even expect it. Also, the punishment for a BE is a full combo in your face because if puts you in a graze state that you can't cancel out of immediately. You overestimate the usefulness of BE's but anyone at a level where BE-ing happens often never does a blockstring that can't be jump cancelled so there's really nothing so safe about it. And you can't use it as much as you want because it hampers our flight. We can airdash but the level of mobility is greatly hampered unlike in IaMP. BE-ing is a huge risk, and if at any point you're down by 2 orbs, most characters can easily break you. Ground bordering is suicidal, but when bordering into the air, blocking anything, melee or bullet will chip spirit. Also, just to point out, in IaMP, you can have 2 bombs at one time, so saying you have limited stock is misleading. You can get more as the match progresses, in Soku our card options are limited as much as we planned. Finally, what I mean when I say Soku has more Zoning is because you lose some range options when you're too close to your opponent. You're A and B buttons are melees at a certain distance and bullets when further away. Meaning that at close range, you lose some options to give a threat of an attack BUT that's counter balanced because IaMP doesn't have a movement system that requires it. | ||
|
Archas
United States6531 Posts
http://marukyuu.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/touhou-13-shinreibyou-ten-desires-announced/ For the Japanese speakers, here's ZUN's blog post about it: http://kourindou.exblog.jp/14332117/ | ||
|
Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
I'm not gonna go into the systems and how they're different as it would be quite tedious and I think Gfree and JSH has gone quite in-depth into both games, although without actually playing with the 2 completely different games, I don't think I don't expect anyone to know wtf about the mechanics they're talking about. | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 28 2011 10:20 Shinshady wrote: To not make a giant quoted post, @ the IaMP vs Soku topic, I honestly just believe in trying both and whatever you like, stick with it. Seeing pro level matches from both games might influence your decisions, as well as you can see the extreme contrast between the games although pro games might discourage you from playing either ><. I'm not gonna go into the systems and how they're different as it would be quite tedious and I think Gfree and JSH has gone quite in-depth into both games, although without actually playing with the 2 completely different games, I don't think I don't expect anyone to know wtf about the mechanics they're talking about. This. It's really all I meant. I hope JSH didn't feel I was talking down on IaMP, I'm just trying to say they have different styles of play due to different mechanics and a different focus. | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 28 2011 09:33 Aeres wrote: Touhou 13 has been announced! Finally! http://marukyuu.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/touhou-13-shinreibyou-ten-desires-announced/ For the Japanese speakers, here's ZUN's blog post about it: http://kourindou.exblog.jp/14332117/ Sanae!!! I'm loving the fact that she keeps coming back. Wonder if the Frog Bomb shot option will still be available because a lot of people found it too good in UFO. | ||
|
BajaBlood
United States205 Posts
On February 25 2011 20:56 Jayme wrote: First off this is my opinion, it's free and worth just as much. If you have 1 CC'd SA Lunatic then you shouldn't have any issue with PCB or UFO at all. I found SA ridiculously more difficult than either. SA stage 5 is the absolute height of retardation you're going to see in the series. The curvy lasers are actually really simple after a bit of practice and EoSD's lack of hitbox is a minor inconvenience at best if you're already 1 CCing lunatic because you will find you really don't pay as much attention to that white dot as you think you do....that and a lot of Lunatic stages require unfocused movement anyway. Yeah, SA is definitely hard and may actually be the hardest overall. But it's also my favorite of the series, so I've played it the most and am pretty comfortable with it. Additionally, I find SA's stage 6 to be quite easy compared to most of the other games, even if Stage 5 is ridiculous. I actually captured the final spell card on my first try, something that I could never imagine doing to a card like Mountain of Faith. Got my 1cc of PCB this morning and now am working on EoSD. Doesn't seem like the hitbox is going to be too big a deal, as my runs are going about as well as they usually do as I move from game to game (breeze through Stages 1-3, get steamrolled by stage 4, then limp through as much of stage 5 as possible before Sakuya/Youmu/Orin/etc puts me out of my misery). I still think UFO will be extremely challenging - I had a very difficult time beating it on hard. I find the stages to be significantly more challenging due to the UFO mechanic and the bosses can be quite unforgiving since you lose 1.00 power on death and it is given back to you quite slowly. One death to a rogue laser can really cause a run to slide out of control. Totally psyched about Touhou 13 though. I wonder if I'll be able to finish 6-12 before it comes out ^^' | ||
|
Reaper9
United States1724 Posts
| ||
|
JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 28 2011 08:38 GFree wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yes, I'll say I FEEL that way because if we really want to go into comparisons it'll be too tedious. I'll agree that random deck systems are... odd in a fighting game but I treat it like MtG deck designing so I don't mind so much. WEATHER ISN'T RANDOM. Just gotta say this. Common misperception. It goes in a cycle. Sunny->Drizzle->Cloudy->BlueSky->Hail->SpringHaze->HeavyFog->Snow->SunShower->Sprinkle->Tempest->MountainVapor->RiverMist->Typhoon->Calm->DustStorm->DiamondDust->SunShower->Monsoon->Aurora The counter will go down the cycle every time a wallbounce or knockdown occurs, even during a weather. The upcoming weather appears where the timer normally would be, so for example, if your hand is empty, and the upcoming weather is MountainVapor, you may not want to engage your opponent because if a knockdown (or a wallbounce and knockdown, which will move the counter twice) you'll lose a weather that temporarily gives you a full hand. There is a lot of strategy to weather which is why people pack weather cards. Now on the BE vs Bombs. True it refills your meter, and there's tactical ways to use it. There's even cards and weathers that help bordering. BE isn't as safe as you make it sound. Frankly, when you BE, you don't end your opponent's momentum, it just buys you an opening that has only any use, if you're opponent doesn't even expect it. Also, the punishment for a BE is a full combo in your face because if puts you in a graze state that you can't cancel out of immediately. You overestimate the usefulness of BE's but anyone at a level where BE-ing happens often never does a blockstring that can't be jump cancelled so there's really nothing so safe about it. And you can't use it as much as you want because it hampers our flight. We can airdash but the level of mobility is greatly hampered unlike in IaMP. BE-ing is a huge risk, and if at any point you're down by 2 orbs, most characters can easily break you. Ground bordering is suicidal, but when bordering into the air, blocking anything, melee or bullet will chip spirit. Also, just to point out, in IaMP, you can have 2 bombs at one time, so saying you have limited stock is misleading. You can get more as the match progresses, in Soku our card options are limited as much as we planned. Finally, what I mean when I say Soku has more Zoning is because you lose some range options when you're too close to your opponent. You're A and B buttons are melees at a certain distance and bullets when further away. Meaning that at close range, you lose some options to give a threat of an attack BUT that's counter balanced because IaMP doesn't have a movement system that requires it. But again, even if weather happens in cycles, you have to work around it You have to work with what the game gives you, not what you have at your disposal that would be the best choice But you have to admit some of the weather effects are... bad And Bombs are limited. You can get more as the match progresses, but that is also aspect of the game. You are able to the opponent from gaining more point items by doing potentially dangerous air techs or playing safer because you don't want to give your opponent bombs. Only thing I don't agree with is saying Soku has more zoning A and B buttons are melees at close range and bullets at far but this doesn't make you lose options. Zoning is done with melee attacks too not just bullets You do not lose options to give a threat of an attack in close range, you gain different ones. On February 28 2011 10:30 GFree wrote: This. It's really all I meant. I hope JSH didn't feel I was talking down on IaMP, I'm just trying to say they have different styles of play due to different mechanics and a different focus. I'm not trying to talk down on Soku as well. In fact if you were planning to play one of the fighters, I would recommend Soku because it has a larger player base And 13 coming out :D | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 28 2011 14:13 JSH wrote: But again, even if weather happens in cycles, you have to work around it You have to work with what the game gives you, not what you have at your disposal that would be the best choice But you have to admit some of the weather effects are... bad And Bombs are limited. You can get more as the match progresses, but that is also aspect of the game. You are able to the opponent from gaining more point items by doing potentially dangerous air techs or playing safer because you don't want to give your opponent bombs. Only thing I don't agree with is saying Soku has more zoning A and B buttons are melees at close range and bullets at far but this doesn't make you lose options. Zoning is done with melee attacks too not just bullets You do not lose options to give a threat of an attack in close range, you gain different ones. I'm not trying to talk down on Soku as well. In fact if you were planning to play one of the fighters, I would recommend Soku because it has a larger player base And 13 coming out :D Yeah the bomb thing is mainly just a comparison to Soku bombs and deck planning. Anyway, they're two different games, let's just agree to that. Different movement systems and spirit systems. We could go at this all day, and there's plenty of forums that support this fact. Perhaps you could share some high level IaMP games to help give anyone who can't make up their mind some visual aid in deciding. You could even explain some of the more advanced concepts I don't get, like gaining points and bombs. | ||
|
Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
Probably would pop by the channel if i could ^^ | ||
|
JSH
United States4109 Posts
Bombs can be used 3 ways, Offense, Defense, and Neutral Offense they can be used to extend combos and do extra damage It also recovers your spirit and knocks the opponent straight up It has fast recovery so you extend combos Some characters need to use O-Bombs for their combos like Yuyuko while other characters don't really need to use them like Sakuya Defense is bombs used during blockstun and it causes knockdown but does not replenish spirit It has very slow recovery and it is used to stop pressure while its happening Neutral bombs are done at netural state, can be used to replenish spirit and recovers at moderate rate It is used to stop pressure from starting Point items are gained by causing knockdown or hitting the opponent while bullets are on screen. Some characters give lots of points while other don't give very many Here is a match: has commentary so hope it helps~ Kind of slow paced as both players plays very defensibly | ||
|
Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
On February 28 2011 16:35 JSH wrote: + Show Spoiler + Mm yeah they are different games Bombs can be used 3 ways, Offense, Defense, and Neutral Offense they can be used to extend combos and do extra damage It also recovers your spirit and knocks the opponent straight up It has fast recovery so you extend combos Some characters need to use O-Bombs for their combos like Yuyuko while other characters don't really need to use them like Sakuya Defense is bombs used during blockstun and it causes knockdown but does not replenish spirit It has very slow recovery and it is used to stop pressure while its happening Neutral bombs are done at netural state, can be used to replenish spirit and recovers at moderate rate It is used to stop pressure from starting Point items are gained by causing knockdown or hitting the opponent while bullets are on screen. Some characters give lots of points while other don't give very many Here is a match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZL6KwhAeJ4 has commentary so hope it helps~ Kind of slow paced as both players plays very defensibly +1 For bellreisa video lol... he's hilarious and was a really main figure in the US 7.5 IIRC | ||
|
GFree
Singapore71 Posts
Edit: Oh you all like him? I generally don't like commentators in fighting games so, oh well. No offense, I hate Soku commentators just as much. Yeah IaMP Youmu seems about similar to Soku Youmu but in Soku, she has even worse bullet options. Myon does this weird AoE that's great during pressure but otherwise completely useless on the approach. The most that Soku Youmu has for bullet 'cover' is throwing Myon forward. However, Youmu has the fastest speed in Soku and one of the best mix up options in pressure, coupled with a high damage rate. So, Youmu spends 80% of the game using her spirit for nothing but running and flying, then the rest for doing some endless stagger pressure, since she has both a high and low hitting melee that moves her forward, and finally killing the opponent. That bullet pattern Myon normally fires and that slow crescent slash is an alt special in Soku and the crescent can''t be used in the air. Marisa in IaMP has a slow bullet, how nifty. Marisa here doesn't have too much slow bullets so most of your zoning is in the form of penetrating bullet walls with her laser. Otherwise she plays pretty similarly. This matchup in Soku, would be really short for both would be dancing really close to each other though Marisa will have more mid screen options. At the time of this tourney, this was the world's 1st ranked Marisa and 5th ranked Youmu, according to the Tenco database I'm guessing, which is primarily Japanese players but with a few foreigners. | ||
|
JSH
United States4109 Posts
I should have chosen a cleaner one then There really aren't any other commentators in English though N-Bomb is punishable directly if you don't block it If you block it, then you can't punish it directly but you will be able to pressure him Hm yeah puffballs are really good Here is a more offensively oriented Marisa vs Yuyuko, which is a horrible matchup for Yuyuko one without commentary + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On February 28 2011 09:33 Aeres wrote: Touhou 13 has been announced! Finally! http://marukyuu.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/touhou-13-shinreibyou-ten-desires-announced/ For the Japanese speakers, here's ZUN's blog post about it: http://kourindou.exblog.jp/14332117/ where the fuck is my maid | ||
| ||
