EPTFound this, if only it was a real game hahaha
Touhou Discussion Thread - Page 24
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
Found this, if only it was a real game hahaha | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 26 2011 12:13 Demoninja wrote: Hey guys I just started playing shmups and I decided what better way to level up quickly than going through hell via touhou? Do you suggest I play the games in the order they came out or what? Currently I have TH06. I would recommend TH08 Imperishable Night as first choice One of the easier of the Touhou games That being said, just try them all and see which one interests you the most though I thought EoSD is pretty hard though haha | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
Edit: For like TH07.5 is that a whole other game or what? | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 26 2011 12:32 Demoninja wrote: So far I can beat level 1 on Lunatic without dying. I'll give TH08 a shot. Edit: For like TH07.5 is that a whole other game or what? Yes TH7.5 is IaMP, fighting game created with Tasofro If you want to netplay pm me :D uh, there are SWR 10.5 and its expansion set 12.3 Hisoutensoku, which are also fighters | ||
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Abenson
Canada4122 Posts
And why is 10.5 imbalanced? O_O | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
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Shinshady
Canada1237 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:17 Abenson wrote: Which TH fighting game would you guys recommend I play? And why is 10.5 imbalanced? O_O 7.5 or 12.3... 10.5 has some issues that I don't remember since I never played it that much. Since 12.3 is just an expansion w/ more chars and fix to the balance issues, its probably more recommended. IMO 7.5 vs 12.3 are very different games and its all up to the style that you like more... but since I dont play much 7.5 I can't explain in much detail how it works... | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:27 Shinshady wrote: 7.5 or 12.3... 10.5 has some issues that I don't remember since I never played it that much. Since 12.3 is just an expansion w/ more chars and fix to the balance issues, its probably more recommended. IMO 7.5 vs 12.3 are very different games and its all up to the style that you like more... but since I dont play much 7.5 I can't explain in much detail how it works... To be honest, I prefer 7.5, but if you really want to play, I guess it would be better to play 12.3 Just because of the player base size 7.5 player base is pretty small D: It's such a good game though as for difference between 7.5 and 12.3: On February 19 2011 14:03 JSH wrote: Here's a good comparison between Soku and IaMP that Mauve a top player makes: http://forum.mizuumi.net/immaterial-and-missing-power/iamp-v-swr(s)/ Sure it may be a little biased as he (and most competitive fighter gamers) prefer IaMP over Soku for the reasons that he states in his posts It's quite a read :> It has also bit of game specific terms so it could be confusing if you haven't played either It can be summed up in two points based on movement and game mechanic: + Show Spoiler + Movement: The effective result of this is that it is much harder to claim or fight for space in SWR. You can send bullets, but they often move fast enough that they are easily reacted to and avoided, leaving the player in a safe location. Within a certain range they are almost useless because you can not only react to them, but fly in and punish due to the very late cancel periods allowed. If you watch Japanese play, this tends to devolve towards baiting out the second flight or airdash, and if they fail they back off and try again. It looks like they are moving very fast, zipping one way, and then zipping another, but that's only because if they actually do anything, they're stuck there for a really stupidly long time. IaMP has more limited movement options, but because of the reduced cancel periods between bullets and airdashes or HJCs, and the slower moving bullets in general, it allows you to create waves that can be used to push in or force the opponent to move into the air and get stuck with his own limited movement options. Much of the game is based around this spatial control: Since you can only airdash, going high in the air has substantial risk associated with it, but you simply have to go there if you don't want to get trapped. SWR's spatial control game is much simplified by comparison, despite its increased number of options. Meter Mechanic: You'll note I made repeated emphasis on how SWR's meter mechanics are about giving the players situations to deal with, whereas IaMP's mechanics are about the players creating the situations they have to deal with. This is a very important distinction and a very large reason for why players of one game are not too keen on the other. -Mauve | ||
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On February 26 2011 12:32 Demoninja wrote: So far I can beat level 1 on Lunatic without dying. I'll give TH08 a shot. Edit: For like TH07.5 is that a whole other game or what? TH08 is largely considered easier because of how overpowered the Reimu/Yukari combination is. You get Reimu's hitbox, Marisa's power(Yukari does a hell of a lot of damage, and half of it is homing), and the perfect speed all in one character/youkai combination. While the spell cards aren't exactly easy the character is extremely noob friendly. | ||
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GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 26 2011 13:17 Abenson wrote: Which TH fighting game would you guys recommend I play? And why is 10.5 imbalanced? O_O 1) I would say 12.3 because the movement system is makes the game really complex. 7.5 plays more like a normal fighting game, and it's great and all, but I feel 12.3 plays more on a lot of baiting, punishing and zoning, while 7.5 is more about your blockstrings and combos. 2)Pretty much because certain characters did too much damage for their speed (Aya), had insane range with follow up possibilities (Iku), effing long corner combos with a huge melee to tag anyone who tried to Border out (Alice), and some were just plain bad in comparison (Reisen). Aya got nerfed damage. Alice got a much weaker spirit chipping arsenal but an increase in aerial options and a little hlep with close range options and Iku didn't get much changes but now most characters have some zoning options to keep her honest.Meanwhile Reisen's 623 skills got USABLE and her general pressure got better. 12.3 pretty started with one humongous nerf to everyone and worked up. Chars deal less damage to make that character have to work more for their damage. Startup times and recoveries were changed, the way certain spells and skills worked changed, etc. They did do some balancing in 10.5, but since 12.3 was due for release they stopped and worked with that. Most of the issues that came up were blockstrings and combos that players came up with, that was able to utilize the guardcrush mechanics to insane levels and unlike IaMP, though still a huge setback there, in 10.5/12.3 guard crushes just make you vulnerable to more guard crushes until you're playing with at best, 2 orbs max because 2-3 will be perpetually crushed. It takes skill to do those combos but it wasn't fun to see the entire competitive community using only 3-4 characters. Essentially they made all characters and skills playable. This did end up making the average 3round game longer, about 4-5 minutes easily but it allowed all characters and skills to be playable while still having a game that was interesting enough for spectators to watch. | ||
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Sir Alex
United States159 Posts
If you are totally new to shmups, I think the best game to start learning things from is probably TH07 on Easy difficulty. It's still the only game that gives you a well balanced introduction to fundamentals of the genre without throwing major gimmicks in your way or cutting the game short. Focus on looking at patterns as geometry and thinking about concrete techniques you can use to dodge certain types of attacks rather than memorizing everything at once. Do runs of the full game to start out with, use continues if you need to at first but always concentrate on resource management. Your first major goal should be to clear the game without continuing. Just like Starcraft, resource management on a macro level is the key to solid success, not tricky micro maneuvers. Resource management doesn't mean "don't bomb." Quite the opposite. It means bomb MORE. Don't try to deathbomb. Don't try to delay bombs. Whenever you are in a situation you are not comfortable with, bomb! Save the fancy flying for when you are out of bombs. If you make it a rule to never, ever die with bombs left in stock, you'll be amazed at how far you can get - and how your situation management skills will improve. Here are some things you should concentrate on at first: Stage 1 - Gather items, especially power, and play safely. Try not to use any bombs, but especially don't die. Stage 2 - Reach full power before the boss, or even earlier, continue playing safe and practice safe times to go to the top of the screen to collect items. Stage 3 - Use bombs to keep yourself safe, avoid dying multiple times in rapid succession, and preemptively bomb on boss attacks that you know are problematic for you. Stage 4 - Observe and think about the enemy patterns. In almost every Touhou game, stage 4 enemies use a lot of "streaming" attacks, patterns aimed directly at you. Learn to manipulate these patterns by moving slowly, changing directions safely, and not trapping yourself against walls. Use bombs liberally. Stage 5 - Observe and memorize where larger enemies appear, and kill them as quickly as possible. Again, use bombs like a Terran uses stimpacks. Keep an eye on your resources and stretch them where possible. Stage 6 - After a few games, you should start to get a feel for how long X amount of bombs and lives can take you. Push it to the limit here, don't give up, and look for gimmick attacks that have simple strategies for survival. Even the final boss always has a couple of gimmes. Experiment with different characters. In TH07, Sakuya A-type is probably the most newbie friendly, coming with four powerful bombs per life, a wide spread unfocused shot for killing popcorn, and a high damage autotargeting focused shot for bosses. Reimu-A will look very tempting as well, with her promises of full 360 degree homing shots. Try her out, and notice the differences - sure, she's full homing, but it's not much better than Sakuya's autotargeting, and her damage is so low that boss attacks take nearly twice as long to die, so you're facing nearly twice as much gameplay with fewer and worse bombs! But who knows, maybe you'll like her movement speed? Or maybe you'll prefer Marisa's zippyness and direct damage, or Sakuya B's versatile shot. There's a lot of variety to be had, and this is just one game. If you get bored playing only one game, try your hand at TH06 Normal, and TH08 Easy and Normal. As mentioned here, TH08 Easy is... really, really easy, even by the standards of other easy modes. Enemies hardly even fire bullets until the last stage or two, the bullets that do exist move very slowly, and you have a ton of bombs and lives to play with, in addition to the character teams and system mechanics working for you. It's a good morale booster since even a totally green player should be able to clear the game in a few tries, maybe even their first try. However, its overly generous attacks and mechanics also make it perhaps not the best game to learn from. Many players who start on TH08 develop a bad habit of relying on its super lenient, super strong deathbombing mechanics and have a hard time breaking out of this and learning to manually bomb and manage their stock properly. Normal modes, on the other hand, will probably be out of a new player's reach for some time. Play them, try them, learn from them, strive to clear them, but it's unlikely you'll do so until acquiring enough general skill to beat TH07 Easy first. In most other games, even in many other shmups, difficulty settings don't make a tremendous difference, but in the Touhou series in particular there are vast gulfs between them that a new player must learn to respect. Trying to play Lunatic mode when it is far beyond your skill level is like logging on to iccup and challenging an A rank player when you've only played the campaign of Brood War with the mouse. It'll be fun(ny), sure, and you might survive the early game, and you might pick up a few tips here and there, but overall you'll be crushed, and you won't have strong enough fundamentals to understand why you got crushed or how you need to improve. So, move up ranks gradually once you feel comfortable with lower difficulties, and stick to the earlier games in the series at first. I really wish TH06's Easy mode let you play through the full game, but unfortunately it does not include the final stage, so it's not very good as a teaching tool. In general, however, TH06 and 07 are by far the best games for teaching fundamentals and once you can clear 7 on Easy you should be ready to start tackling 6 on Normal. I haven't talked about the later games at all. This is because they were developed mainly for people who were already familiar with shmup basics, and add very major gimmicks on top of them. TH06 has no gimmicks, TH07's cherry border mechanic can be ignored when you're starting out or just used as an extra bomb whenever it comes, and TH08's partner system doesn't change the fundamentals of the game that much, but the later games are very difficult to learn on because their gimmicks simply can't be ignored or played around. TH10 and TH11 both use powerbombing systems, making resource management in them very different from the other games, and TH12 absolutely requires the player to learn the convoluted UFO system to have a hope of clearing the game. It's best to move on to these games after you've developed a good idea of what a "normal" game flows like and can analyze their various differences. TH09, the two photography games, and Fairy Wars all have extremely different gameflow and again work better as assists after you've got some Normals under your belt. | ||
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GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 26 2011 09:10 Blasterion wrote: Randomly browsing through youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NTd2XgydrQ Found this, if only it was a real game hahaha ^Most epic PV ever imo | ||
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JSH
United States4109 Posts
On February 26 2011 20:41 GFree wrote: 1) I would say 12.3 because the movement system is makes the game really complex. 7.5 plays more like a normal fighting game, and it's great and all, but I feel 12.3 plays more on a lot of baiting, punishing and zoning, while 7.5 is more about your blockstrings and combos. + Show Spoiler + 2)Pretty much because certain characters did too much damage for their speed (Aya), had insane range with follow up possibilities (Iku), effing long corner combos with a huge melee to tag anyone who tried to Border out (Alice), and some were just plain bad in comparison (Reisen). Aya got nerfed damage. Alice got a much weaker spirit chipping arsenal but an increase in aerial options and a little hlep with close range options and Iku didn't get much changes but now most characters have some zoning options to keep her honest.Meanwhile Reisen's 623 skills got USABLE and her general pressure got better. 12.3 pretty started with one humongous nerf to everyone and worked up. Chars deal less damage to make that character have to work more for their damage. Startup times and recoveries were changed, the way certain spells and skills worked changed, etc. They did do some balancing in 10.5, but since 12.3 was due for release they stopped and worked with that. Most of the issues that came up were blockstrings and combos that players came up with, that was able to utilize the guardcrush mechanics to insane levels and unlike IaMP, though still a huge setback there, in 10.5/12.3 guard crushes just make you vulnerable to more guard crushes until you're playing with at best, 2 orbs max because 2-3 will be perpetually crushed. It takes skill to do those combos but it wasn't fun to see the entire competitive community using only 3-4 characters. Essentially they made all characters and skills playable. This did end up making the average 3round game longer, about 4-5 minutes easily but it allowed all characters and skills to be playable while still having a game that was interesting enough for spectators to watch. You can't say 12.3 feels more like baiting and zoning and 7.5 is just about blockstrings and combos Blockstring and combos are worthless if you don't zone in any fighting game I don't want to start up discussion on Soku vs IaMP but saying things like that is just wrong And again, you can't say Soku is more complex than IaMP. Fighting games are about mind games It's about zoning and reacting to your opponent That's what makes fighting games complex Not I have 50 spellcards I can use | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
I think mine is set to 3 lives per 1 credit right now and I only use 1 credit per run. | ||
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Archas
United States6531 Posts
Dark PHOENiX Ah, Dark PHOENiX. This circle is the first one I discovered, and also perhaps my favorite of them all. Maybe it's that "I found this one first, so I have a certain attachment to it" deal, but I truly love the sound. Generally, the music from this group follows either the metal path composed by Shion, or the more orchestral sound from Yuu (that is, if you discount the Vocaloid stuff from their ShotShell album series). No matter the genre, it's always amazing. So obviously, I was wishing upon a star for Dark PHOENiX to release something for C79, and by god, they did not disappoint. What emerged from their studio was, I would wager, their second-best album (after ShotShell III). Quite the experience. + Show Spoiler [Sound-0 Phase-11] + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/tq2Ev.jpg) Track Listing:
Alright, I'll get this out of the way first: Sound-0 Phase-11 has four tracks from Touhou 12.8, and I gotta say, I think dBu did those better in Scherzo of Fairy Wars. I just don't think Dark PHOENiX's style really fits those songs. Nevertheless, they're still pretty well-done, but the real magic of this album lies in the non-Cirno stuff. Fortunately, the first track, Ruse Rain, is perhaps the best of all the 12.8 songs here. I enjoyed Ruse Rain in 12.8 (that's like the only time I've approved of ZUN's 12.8 songs... -.-), and even thought it's sort of hard to hear the original piece in there, the synth and guitar lead are, as always, energetic and eclectic. The tempo tends to go all over the place, and I dunno what the sumo sound is at the beginning and end of the song, but overall, a good piece. On to Strange Bird. I do NOT like this in PCB; it's probably my least favorite boss theme yet. I'm not completely satisfied with what DP's done, but that's mostly because THE SYNTH IS FUCKING EVERYWHERE. In my opinion, there's waaaaaay too much of it, and it's played waaaaaay too quickly. Putting that aside, the instrument variation is surprisingly diverse and somehow fits well. The opening is the heavy synth, but then it melds into the flute, piano, and Shion's distinctive guitar (my brother calls it "cliche guitar", which seems about right). An average track, but definitely an improvement from what I normally associate the piece with. Of course, by that, I mean being slaughtered by Youmu to bad music. But O, how blessed am I. For when Strange Bird ceased, the heavens parted, the angels sang, and the Lord Himself + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/hPluo.jpg) ... And then Magus Night kicks in. This is perhaps the low point of the album for me. I simply don't like this song. I didn't like it in 12.8, and I don't like it now. Nothing much else to say, I just don't care for it. A counterbalance to Magus Night follows, however, with the strangely jaunty Princess Inada. This one is very synth-heavy, lacking any guitar solos, but I sort of enjoy the pure synth work since it doesn't happen often. Not a remarkable track, but neither is it a bad one. Fairly plain, really... although the piano in the background is impressive. And then pure joy ensues with Mystic Oriental Love Consultation. This song is done so differently from DP's usual style, and done so well, that it's definitely an album highlight. First forty seconds are your basic synth/guitar medley, and then it leads into about thirty seconds of surprisingly subdued piano and acoustic work. And then the chorus hits. And you'll love it. It's not a prediction or guess, you WILL love it. So imagine my delight when after the aural handjob that is MOLC finishes, the next track is just as good! Maybe I have a grudge against Youmu, but I don't like her stage OR boss theme. Ancient Temple seemed a bit bland to me, but that changes here, for Dark PHOENiX really metals it up here. The drum line is so ridiculously awesome that it's hard for me to not tap my feet to the rhythm. This is another synth-heavy song, but with some guitar solos thrown in for good measure. And the chorus is... I mean, I'm listening to the chorus as I type this, and I've got goosebumps from how good it is. It's a slight tempo deviation from the original ZUN work, and it's so amazing. Ancient Temple is clearly another highlight. After two incredible songs in a row, I expected only to be disappointed. I expected wrong, because while Last Remote on this album is only a remastering and not a completely new mix, Shion messed around with it enough to sound like something else. The intro is completely different, the ending has strings mixed in, and for God's sake, it's Last Remote! You'd have to be sick in the head to not like it. While the album is at its peak with the previous three songs, don't discount Fairy Wars as not worth listening to; it's not magnificent, but it's no slouch either. Not stunning, no, but the song itself is again very different from typical Dark PHOENiX style. The emphasis is not on synth or guitar (while both are present, neither are at the forefront), but rather on flute, piano, and pizzicato violin. The result is something strangely calming, despite the frenetic rhythm guitar and drum line. The second-best 12.8 track on the album, but not by much; it's great in its own right. One of the gripes I have about this album is its ending. The last track is sort of meh. A Midnight Fairy Dance, while excellent in dBu's album, just doesn't seem to work here. The problem, in my opinion, is that it's not fast enough. dBu's version was great because it had just the right tempo, somewhere I think DP falls short. A sort of lackluster ending to a great album, which is a shame. Overall, I think you can guess that I really, really enjoyed Sound-0 Phase-11. Quality work from Dark PHOENiX, and one of my favorite albums from any circle. | ||
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Sir Alex
United States159 Posts
This is because those games all give you fairly variable numbers of extra lives depending on your score or how many point items you're collecting, and as you increase in skill you'll be able to get more lives over the course of the game anyway. If a new player starts with 5 lives, and an intermediate player starts with 3 lives but is able to do better at item collection and gets two more extra lives during the game than the new player does - they're both using the same amount of total resources to clear the game with. Similar reasoning applies to why you shouldn't worry about trying to play for score at first. The things you have to do for scoring vary from game to game or situation to situation, but basic skills in dodging, pattern recognition, and making the most of your lives and bombs are universal and will help you in any game or any situation. | ||
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Demoninja
United States1190 Posts
Edit: Oh okay I got about 78% done off that 2nd run. I used a continue so I could see that bosses' name. | ||
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GFree
Singapore71 Posts
On February 26 2011 21:15 JSH wrote: You can't say 12.3 feels more like baiting and zoning and 7.5 is just about blockstrings and combos Blockstring and combos are worthless if you don't zone in any fighting game I don't want to start up discussion on Soku vs IaMP but saying things like that is just wrong And again, you can't say Soku is more complex than IaMP. Fighting games are about mind games It's about zoning and reacting to your opponent That's what makes fighting games complex Not I have 50 spellcards I can use I never said they were devoid of each other. I said the emphasis was on a certain aspect of the fighting game. Soku at high levels uses lots of unsafe open stagger strings. If you don't zone heavily to give a threat of punishing your opponent, it's easier to get out of. Meanwhile I FEEL that IaMP doesn't have as much of a zoning emphasis because you still use a more linear (forward-backward) style of movement. Plus since we're on the topic of saying things that are wrong, ''I have 50 spellcards I can use' is a rather cheap whack at Soku that's also completely wrong. The best players only have 4-6 spells per deck for the whole 3 rounds. The other 17 slots in the deck are given to system and skill cards. On average a player would use 1-2 alt skills so that's 4-8 slots taken because the skills play a big part to your style of play and you wanna draw it quickly. Then there's at least 2 Weather cards on average and 2 Spirit Talismans (bombs). The remaining limited space are usually given to character specific system cards, Komachi Coins for the defensive styled characters like Alice, Hakuroukens for aggressive characters, Magic Potions for the rushdown characters, so on and so forth. We aren't able to get any more bombs than we prepared for, nor are we able to get any more spells than we prepared for. So don't say you don't wanna start an argument and then throw a blatantly wrong accusation. We zone heavily because we aren't able to bomb out of a string, the only alternative option is a Border Escape which crushes 1/5 of our spirit bar for a really long time, and still can be punished. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
Epic video =0 Reimu is too strong.... | ||
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