EPTThe Elephant in the Room - Page 83
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DreamOen
Spain1400 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:54 Fleebenworth wrote: I wish BW players would switch over so that this cult that surrounds the Korean game and BW scene in particular would be dispelled once and for all. No, because then the argument would be that their true mechanical skill and brilliant game sense were being clouded and masked by the simplicity of the game and interface. You would hear some people whining about how any noob can macro but in bw they would be worthless, and other people saying the game was fundamentally flawed in some way. I mean all it takes to beat Idra is to get off a lucky double-bunker of his ramp, in a "true" game the bw pros would never lose! | ||
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
So what you're basically saying is that Flash and JaeDong has something (I suspect it's raw talent, since everything else can be trained) that no one can fight against. It obviously isn't so. It's however quite ironic that while writing the biggest (and most one sided) SC2 rant in the history of the game, you discover the actual difference by chance. What the South Korean SC1 model is meant to do is to bring forth the players with an iron will. You say it yourself, most people never rise to the top, most players never get to play Pro League. So what the system does, is to filter out anyone but the few very determined players who can set everything else aside. Granted talent and other skillsets have an implication on it, but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that a bigger part of the things you need to do to become a good SC1 player is to practice mechanisms. And that is highly trainable. Where's your point? BW players practice a lot harder and more efficiently and organized than SC2 pros. That is a part of the point that is made in OP. Of course it is, to a large degree, trainable. This is part of the reason that BW top players are on a different level. | ||
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Krazilec
United States96 Posts
Firstly, to the (many) people saying that sc2 contributes 99% of the audience or that sc2 is the reason for global esports explosion, please keep in mind that Brood War INVENTED esports about 12 years ago. Obviously there wouldnt be a sc2 without broodwar, and i dont just mean this in the sequel way, i mean that esports wouldnt be what it is today without the years long influence of pro BW. This leads me to my second point, which is the overall ignorance regarding BW of new sc2 esports fans, while many BW fans have similar or equal sc2 knowledge. This is obvious when people post that July has had lots of time to switch over, played thousands of games in beta, and still isnt dominating. In the OP intrigue uses the phrase "orders of magnitude". July zerg was relegated almost entirely to a coaching role, because he couldnt win games (ofc july is very sneaky and can sneak games of of top level BW pros sometimes, but not consistently enough to play proleague). Also people fail to understand how scary high the skill ceiling is for BW, JD, flash, Bisu, Stork, fanta, etc can stomp players that can stomp players that can stomp players that could beat july when he played BW. Im not trying to shit on SC2 fans, but the problem is a general ignorance. My advice? watch some broodwar, proleague is on at 10 some nights, and the MSL ro16 was just finished, watch some and try to understand where we (BW fans) are coming from when we make posts, and badass final edits such at this. Well, this has been my rant, figured i might as well pitch in. Peace | ||
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Istvan
22 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:37 gn0m wrote: How do you know that? Don’t you think that the same was said when WC3 was released? Look what happened there. Only just because Blizzard plans to give much more support to SC2 than BW tournies. And the foreign scene in SC2 is already pretty significant, that's definitely a good sign when complemented with the GSL staple. You must admit that even for a game riding off BW, it's pretty impressive that early SC2 tournies could command so much money. I grew up with BW and I loved it to death. But then, there was no sites like TL.net nor gomtv. This is a different generation....the exposure of SC2 to the internet-savvy generation is much greater I guess. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:00 jdseemoreglass wrote: No, because then the argument would be that their true mechanical skill and brilliant game sense were being clouded and masked by the simplicity of the game and interface. You would hear some people whining about how any noob can macro but in bw they would be worthless, and other people saying the game was fundamentally flawed in some way. I mean all it takes to beat Idra is to get off a lucky double-bunker of his ramp, in a "true" game the bw pros would never lose! Gotta say, this is probably the best post in the thread. | ||
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ak1knight
United States313 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:44 Istvan wrote: Too much volatility? How much is too much. Why should the most skilled players win every game? If they play well, they win. If they fall to some cheese or fail to punish risky openings, that's too goddamned bad. No one is going to watch a sport where the games are predictable. It's 6 scvs and 50 minerals against 6 probes and 50 minerals; after that, whatever happens is anyones' guess. MC, Inca and MKP are all top players. I would expect that their 4-gates and marine all-ins be pretty hard to hold against. I don't understand your point in bringing them into the argument. If you think that they are winning despite dubious strategies, then it goes against your point that the performance of the "most skilled players" is violatile. How did you measure Idra's skill, rofl. A) Actually tons of people watch sports where a few teams dominate. In pretty much every soccer league in Europe there's no more than 5-6 teams you could pencil in as champions. In the NFL and NBA a select few generally dominate the league. The popularity of tennis went up when Federer was winning so much. B) Dominance does increase interest, because it creates storylines. Say someone has won 20 matches in a row, more people are going to watch because they want to see if that player could get knocked off. It also gets fans to start loving/hating players which increases general fandom. C) Builds like those are much more percentage based. If you can prevent scouting (or getting blind countered) you win, if you can't you lose. I agree there's some skill in coming up with the BO and executing, but there isn't enough skill to say it isn't a huge blunder when they mess it up. | ||
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:51 Felony wrote: Who cares about in studio audiences? The sheer amount of people subscribing is where they are making money. And with English commentary the game has opened up to so many more viewers(billions?). I for one have stayed up many times into the early morning hours of PST, when I shouldn't have, to watch Tastosis cast SC2. If foreigners never reach into Code S for a year or two, do you still believe there will be this much foreigner audience online? Also, internet users usually generate much less revenue to the company, internet users and live audience are not equal. And another thing, how can you have only 10 people in the live audience and expect people to call it as a sports? | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce. I disagree with many things in this post, but I'm going to quote the one that stands out the most. This statement is highly disrespectful to the SC2 players and what took me by surprise is that this means that intrigue is saying the competition which the Liquid team plays in is a farce. If we take it a bit further - since Liquid has not been dominating the competition, does this make them more than a farce?? Even though this editorial is supposed to only be the opinion of intrigue, it being spotlighted means that teamliquid is accepting towards his statement? What does the Liquid team (and other pros) think when they read this article? I would be genuinely interested to hear their opinions. I know Artosis (through) his twitter already claiming that the editorial is "terribly ignorant". Secondly, the evidence was made that the successful SC2 players have not achieved anything in BW. This is true, but don't forget that BW is a more mechanically demanding game - thus success in BW may not translate to success in SC2. Sure, BW players will make good SC2 players but will they rise to the top? Intrigue has failed to come up with a current BW A-teamer who has been successful at SC2. If I recall, Geumchi tried to switch but he failed to qualify for GSL. Until then (when a top BW pro achieves SC2 dominance), this is all conjecture. The tone of the article is BW biased and intrigue has failed to come up with any meaningful solutions - he straight up implies that SC2 players are inferior. He mentions the reasons why BW pros haven't switched (the enormous amount of money they make), which is about the only interesting thing to the article. | ||
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Keype
Sweden455 Posts
I aggree to some extent and really feels the level of practice have really lowered .. a looot since ppl switched from bw to sc2. Even tho I have heard ppl like Idra saying their mechanics doesnt need that much practice in sc2, I still feel ppl isnt close to the level they could be if the practice would be as in bw. | ||
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Adrian6336
Spain1 Post
This is what I believe many Starcraft 1 players like me who are now graduates or nearly graduates should really do. Hype comes and hype goes, it all seems to me more of a business for Blizzard now than actual service for gamers. Guess I wont be buying Heart of the Swarm after all... Have a good one everyone. Greetings from Spain. | ||
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sniverty
United States72 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:00 jdseemoreglass wrote: No, because then the argument would be that their true mechanical skill and brilliant game sense were being clouded and masked by the simplicity of the game and interface. You would hear some people whining about how any noob can macro but in bw they would be worthless, and other people saying the game was fundamentally flawed in some way. I mean all it takes to beat Idra is to get off a lucky double-bunker of his ramp, in a "true" game the bw pros would never lose! Spot on. I'm sure the blame would be shifted away from the players and on to the game. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:59 DreamOen wrote: I completely agree the fact that one of the trio of death like Flash, Jaedong, or Bisu. Transfer over, even if its no the same game, their talent still is, and they will dominate with no problem. its not the trio is actually 4 people theres stork in there too. | ||
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Distortionz
United States133 Posts
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.Madness
United States94 Posts
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hydraden
United States719 Posts
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On May 13 2011 01:03 Adrian6336 wrote: Upon realizing this fact and many others (self reflection is good...), I have come to understand that is best to read books and go outdoors more than continuing to support or play Starcraft 1 / 2 in any way. This is what I believe many Starcraft 1 players like me who are now graduates or nearly graduates should really do. Hype comes and hype goes, it all seems to me more of a business for Blizzard now than actual service for gamers. Guess I wont be buying Heart of the Swarm after all... Have a good one everyone. Greetings from Spain. Hey now, all you need to do to support BW is join us in the LR threads. No money necessary, just a will to stay up or watch the VODs. We can always use more BW fans and the games won't disappoint. | ||
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:59 DreamOen wrote: I completely agree the fact that one of the trio of death like Flash, Jaedong, or Bisu. Transfer over, even if its no the same game, their talent still is, and they will dominate with no problem. Or just send over any of the 300+ MCs that's living in the B-Team houses. You must defeat the minions before you can fight the Final Boss! It's all a game  | ||
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ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
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KOFgokuon
United States14899 Posts
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