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On May 13 2011 00:43 ZeaL. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:35 War Horse wrote:On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that?  I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year. Come on You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch. Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry. Yeah Flash lost after making 3 consecutive OSL AND MSL finals. He doesn't win every single time but he's extremely consistent compared to the top SC2 pros.
Because Flash is literally the best BW player of all time. Bonjwas are incredibly rare, and a player on Flash's level of consistency and inability for this amount of time has never been seen. And yet, one small slip up and hes out. That's just the nature of a game like Starcraft Brood War, and I'm sure SC2 will evolve along similar lines.
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I don't know about other "sc2 pros" but i personally look forward to the day of top bw players like flash jaedong bisu coming over and playing in sc2. ^.^;;
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On May 13 2011 00:40 Oldern wrote:
Fun fact: after switching to SFIV, Daigo dominated the whole SFIV scene, kinda.
Fun fact 2: a year later, western pro players could get head to head with him, and while he is still one of the best, he IS beatable - and he did not look like beatable a year ago.
So is SFIV crap because SFIII is oh much more complex due to parry, and the skill level, omg? No, it is not : )
Thats a pretty funny point actually. Bw learing curves and mechanics are so much harder than sc2 that it's a matter of time till a lot of players reach such a high level that it's not really importat where you came from anymore.
If flashes switches right now, of course he will domite. The same with bisu, jaedong, stork, and even fantasy best stats etc. BUT, the game is so young and so friendly welcome to new players and new pros that in a matter of 2 years or so, the skill gap between the bw pros and the sc2 players will be pretty much the same.
It's so much easir to macro and to micro, speelcasters don't make that huge of a difference like they did in bw, so you don't really have to micro them that much.
We will have to see. 
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I guess what I'm really upset about is not the point that the OP thinks that BW players will be awesome when the switch over. I think they will and I really want to see JD in SC2 but it's the insulting way he goes about it. Sure he loved watching MC and Thorzain but he also demeaned them. People seem to think it's ok to bash on people as long as they praise them first. "Oh, I love so and so but.....he's an idiot." Stating that you enjoyed watching them then insulting their accomplishments in the same paragraph doesn't change the fact that you insulted them. The skill of BW players and their accomplishments doesn't in any way demean SC 2 players and theirs as the OP seems to suggest.
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On May 13 2011 00:34 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:33 jacobmarlow wrote:
I do not like the condescending tone the OP takes when referring to SC2 players.
This is all speculation. July won his golden mouse when players like Flash Jaedong and Bisu were already in their prime.
Is he dominating Sc2? definitely not. People playing Sc2 are a lot more motivated than when they played SC1 becuase there are a lot more barriers to entry to SC1. Sc2 is much much more accessible at the competitive level.
Bottom line the main article has little to no actualy validity to it. It's purely based on logical flaws and assumptions. july won his golden mouse by bashing bad protoss players in ever 2008 lol
Best wasnt bad lol he was dominating then but PvZ was his worst matchup by far, and thats because july never allowed him to macro.
btw if sc2 nerds were watching the 2008 OSL there would be a billion nerd rage threads that makes MC vs WhiteRa look like a dignified fencing match
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:44 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! trolololol anyways this is why I thinkknow TBLS will dominate SC2 if the switch over since so many of you are convinced that because some former BW players are not dominating none of them can. what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge. so what you're saying is that game sense and decision making can not be worked on? i dont assume that everyone in the world can achieve the same level of game sense and decision making, but it is something that can be taught and learned. there is a limit on how good your decision making can be (no errors) so i think eventually it will be close enough.
they can be worked on,I'm not denying that but right now(and probably for a while) they have the best without a doubt.
On May 13 2011 00:48 Liquid`HuK wrote:
I don't know about other "sc2 pros" but i personally look forward to the day of top bw players like flash jaedong bisu coming over and playing in sc2. ^.^;;
prepare diligently for them Chris.Don't fall behind.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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On May 12 2011 23:27 kardinal wrote:
All the starcraft 1 players will read this while nodding their heads and humming agreements that they were right all along, that starcraft 2 was, is and forever will be trash until it gets more of the starcraft 1 influence.
Starcraft 2 players will read this and be offended by the starcraft 1 elitist saying their game is trash, watching trashy players play trashy games and in effect make the viewers trash too.
When I first clicked on the link I thought I would get to read a well thought out interesting article but what a disappointing flame bait. Maybe the author intended it to sound less horribly biased and more neutral but if that's the case, he failed miserably.
There is a reason why there's a SC2 section and a SC1 section of the forum. quoted for truth. For my personal taste, it's way too much speculation. For example, people like Jaedong and Flash can draw from a pool of experience that covers easily more than a decade of intense playing. There is just no such thing for starcraft 2 to yet. There's still so much to explore and refine. Keeping that in mind, i think that these BW-Elites might dominate in SC2, but don't necessarly have to.
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On May 13 2011 00:43 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:35 War Horse wrote:On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that? I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year. Come on You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch. Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry. The variance in SC2 is just ridiculous though. Even I (a gold leaguer) could probably knock a game off Idra by cannon rushing or proxy 2 gate that he doesn't scout. In BW I could play a million games against Flash and not win once. SC2 players people consider the top in the world are dropping to up/downs in GSL, while players like Naniwa and Inca are getting to finals. Something like that rarely happens in BW.
I can't tell if this is a joke post or not; you would not ever, ever take a single game off Idra, especially if you are gold, and if you think so, you are delusional.
Top players are dropping to up/downs because at the Code S level everyone is really good
JUST LIKE HOW EVERYONE AT OSL/MSL LEVEL IS VERY GOOD.
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Ok I got this;
You like BW, a large part of the current SC2 community doesn't give a shit about your game and your heros, so you go and piss on some SC2 players.? Ok, did I miss something important?
Oh maybe I did. For some reason you don't talk about the players that have probably have a lot of fans around this site.
Jinro (as a 2 time GSL semi), Ret ant Tyler (as pretty successful BW foreigners). Oh, for some reason you didn't wanna shit on them? That's... surprising...
Cheers.
You can find what I really want to tell you on reddit, as I'd get banned for it around here.
User was not banned for this post!
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I guess really all we can do is hope one day the "grass is greener" will take effect and we'll see those guys come over. SC2 = XFL to the NFL!????
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very good article
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I was a casual Broodwar player, but when following the discussion here, I'm at a loss.
When you guys say "MBS and automine" -- what does MBS stand for? Thanks.
As for the discussion, I don't see why removing mechanics that force APM to be bad, if the same APM/attention can be used for multipronged type harasses/scouting/feigned attacks, it should make the game even BETTER from an actual 'action' or 'performance' persepective...no?
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On May 13 2011 00:44 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 14:10 Resistentialism wrote:
Also, I thought the real elephant in the room was that if they'd just swing the cameras around, there just aren't really that many people in the studio. Second this. Last year's season 1 has great crowd. But now, less and less people went to Gomtv studio. And sometimes, there are more foreigners than Koreans, this has to be troublesome for Gomtv. How can they attract Korean audience?
Who cares about in studio audiences? The sheer amount of people subscribing is where they are making money. And with English commentary the game has opened up to so many more viewers(billions?). I for one have stayed up many times into the early morning hours of PST, when I shouldn't have, to watch Tastosis cast SC2.
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Dammit.
This just makes me itch for the days when the true pros do start coming over. But until then, I'll enjoy what we have now. All this means is that SC2 games will only ever get better! Awesome!
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On May 13 2011 00:43 ak1knight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:35 War Horse wrote:On May 13 2011 00:30 ak1knight wrote:On May 13 2011 00:23 omegaslast wrote:
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
is to get a list of the salaries of the top 300 sc2 players. Anyone got that? I have a feeling its not 70k-80k (or more) for more than 50 of the 300 players... which leads to why arent the other 250 jumping on the chance to make $450k a year in CRUSHING defeats? There's too much volatility right now where the most skilled players aren't winning every game. By measurement of skill, Idra should be winning pretty much every NA tourny, but he isn't. Players like MC and Inca can 4-gate to victory and MKP with his marines. SC2 is too much of a risk, even if they're making 50k$ a year. Come on You act like the most skilled BW player wins every game. Flash was knocked out by CLASSIC and SSAK. JD has lost plenty of times. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information, so the best player WILL not win every time. There's too much variance in the game for that to happen, too much Clausewitzian friction, and THATS what makes it a good game to watch. Chess is a game where the more skilled player will win nearly every time, and its as interesting as watching paint dry. The variance in SC2 is just ridiculous though. Even I (a gold leaguer) could probably knock a game off Idra by cannon rushing or proxy 2 gate that he doesn't scout. In BW I could play a million games against Flash and not win once. SC2 players people consider the top in the world are dropping to up/downs in GSL, while players like Naniwa and Inca are getting to finals. Something like that rarely happens in BW.
Why should Idra win if he doesn't scout? He is well-known to have a straightforward macro style that is strong but predictable.
Flash will never drop a game against you because he is just damn good at reading the opponent.
But just like any other players, Flash does get picked off quite a lot when he does his risky 14CC opening, no?
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On May 13 2011 00:42 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote:On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 13 2011 00:09 Eko200 wrote:
The agenda of its senior staff being constantly pushed to the forefront; through constant warnings to its users, temp bans of contributing community members (Idra), and abrasive editorial front page articles. I have come to believe that if I want to read anyones post with a strong opinion contrary to this agenda has been marked in red at the end of their post. Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! trolololol anyways this is why I thinkknow TBLS will dominate SC2 if the switch over since so many of you are convinced that because some former BW players are not dominating none of them can. what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge. If mechanics are the same at the highest of highest levels, why do players like MVP, Idra, ToP, and Nada have consistently better mechanics than their peers?
Yep, I don't agree that mechanics are "the same" at the highest of highest levels at all.
In fact, I think "the highest of highest levels" is constantly shifting.
Consider this: What is considered "good mechanics" changes based on what good players actually are capable of. Therefore, the limit to mechanics is not in the game but in the competition. There is no mechanical skill ceiling, besides what is physically possible for the human body.
Many will claim that there is a limit to how much mechanics are actually *useful* in the game, but my response to that is that mechanics are only a tool used for whatever purpose you apply it to. With good enough mechanics comes new purposes as well.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's not insulting. just teaching younglings some respect and maybe encourage them to explore the BW scene that they know nothing of.
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I'm not sure what all the debate is about here... Is a 13 year old game going to have higher skilled players than a new game? Of course. But who cares? Isn't it just a matter of time until SC2 pros are playing at a bw level? Of course they will, assuming there is the incentive to.
So are we lamenting the fact that SC2 hasn't been around for 13 years yet?
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Diamond is not hard (I say this as a Diamond player), the MMR bar to get in hasn't changed before or after Master League. Just the top 20% of Diamond got bumped up. You're looking at the top 10% of ALL players, a good chunk of which queued their placement 1v1s and never did again.
We'll see how well BW pros do. I'm not convinced all of them will do that well - you simply don't have as much of an advantage by being purely better at mechanics in SC2. You can think about it in a side by side comparison of sports. BW is more like Basketball, where the fact that you're physically gifted determines the majority of your success. No matter how good your shot is, there's been a mere handful of <6' players and they all either were blazing fast or jumped incredibly high. SC2 is more like Tennis, where physical characteristics do matter but they can be compensated for. The speed, strength or height differential of the players on the court is certainly a determining factor, but one only needs to look at McEnroe's (generously listed) 5'11" and Justine Henin's 5' 5" to see that it's rarely the whole story.
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EPT
