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Felony
United States131 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:31 snailz wrote: to sum up, dont watch tsl3 finals. its highschool football. am i right? :p I lold. Good idea to inflame a whole community about their choice of game and then have the finals to the site's tournament this article is front paged on the week before. Genius. Maybe evil. | ||
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MeatFly
Czech Republic14 Posts
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Eko200
United States101 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:34 Legatus Lanius wrote: july won his golden mouse by bashing bad protoss players in ever 2008 lol Woah what? BW had bad protoss players as late as 2008 in Korea? I guess BW isn't really the holy grail people have been making it out to be. | ||
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:25 gn0m wrote: Many posters seem to misunderstand the fundamental aspects of Brood War. BW is easily more demanding in terms of mechanics, but that does not mean that SC2 automatically is more strategy based.  Bisu and  Jaedong obviously have excellent mechanics but so do many other BW progamers. Mechanics can only take you so far, how well is the 500+ APM zerg by.hero doing for example? In order to succeed in BW, One need to have great mechanics AND a very deep understanding of the game. BW has continued to evolve over 13 years and is still changing strategy wise, which gives you a hint of the complexity of the game. SC2 has only been out for a very short time in comparison and we are yet to see what the expansions will bring to the table. Will SC2 become as complex in the future? Possibly. But my point is that it is not very hard to catch up on the strategic development of SC2 for someone who has grasped the strategy of BW. The game has simply not been out long enough. Any argument saying that SC2 players need a different skill set (less mechanics, more strategy) is really underestimating the strategic aspects of BW – there is not less strategy in BW, it is just more mechanics. I do agree with what you say here, except that I would add one thing: SC2 pros have not reached any sort of mechanical-skill culmination. People seem to have this opinion that SC2 is much more shallow than BW, and while perhaps true to some superficial extent, I have to disagree and say that the games are only as shallow and 'easy to learn' as the competition requires. This is not to say that I do not believe there is a skill disparity between SC2 pros and BW pros, however, in fact the opposite: Frequently when watching SC2 pro players, I see them float over 600 minerals even when there's just a single, small push occurring. If they do a drop then that is all they are capable of doing during that period. Some players are slightly better than others with multitasking, Idra comes to mind, but overall the level of multitasking, multi-pronged army control, and general resource management is MUCH worse among SC2 players than among BW pros. I think the above in turn shapes what strategies people are doing, or perhaps the causality goes the other way as well. People prefer to build up an army ball and move out, hoping (or knowing) they have produced slightly more units, or units with a slight advantage over the others. I believe this is in direct correspondence to not having the mechanical ability to control several groups at the same time. People rely on the unlimited control groups of SC2, where they could not do so in BW. I think SC2 pros need to rid themselves of this one-dimensional approach and rather focus on developing their mechanical abilities. I have seen some tendencies of this, where it seems people have realized the potential of straight up outplaying their opponent, particularly in Zerg players for some reason (perhaps because they have faced the reality that the single army ball approach does not pay out in the long run, but can only be countered by more multi-dimensional and mechanics/strategy-intensive play). | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:31 Istvan wrote: Yes, S-level BW games are way more entertaining and on-the-edge than S-level SC2 games. But the standard of SC2 can only improve in the long-run, while BW is doomed to die a slow death (very slow, I might add). Eventually we will see SC2 overtake BW's peak. BW elitism is not going to help it. And by the way, I strongly disagree with lumping minesweeper, BW and checkers together. As a chess lover, I think it is an insult to top checkers players that it can be suggested that Flash and JD beat them easily at their game. Checkers, BW, and chess are all different games, even if they are concerned about strategy. How do you know that? Don’t you think that the same was said when WC3 was released? Look what happened there. | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:35 Felony wrote: I lold. Good idea to inflame a whole community about their choice of game and then have the finals to the site's tournament this article is front paged on the week before. Genius. Maybe evil. its ok, its by one of the staff members. | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:34 hypercube wrote: I find it incredibly frustrating when I'm watching an SC2 game and see top players banking 500 or even 1k+ resources in the midgame with no battles going on. There's just absolutely no excuse for that. Or a recent NASL match where someone forgot their 3rd depot. It's not even top BW pros these players have to fear. Unless they start demanding much more from themselves they are going to be swept away by the next generation. Just like the early BW players were isn't it good that better and better players will emerge? | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
As a couple posters have pointed out from a spectator point of view these mechanical differences seem to add nothing to the game. I don't see how people can claim that because of the easier (smoother) mechanics of SC2 that there is less enjoyment in watching the game. When spectating I am interested in the army movements, map control, and battles that are going on. I dont care if a player has to hit 1 hotkey or 5 to select his 5 factories, nor would I expect the commentators to focus much on macro other than a few comments about how it is amazing, as it should be at the pro level. Regardless of the skill cap difference, real or perceived, I just don't understand how mechanical differences influence some peoples enjoyment of the game as a spectator sport. Maybe they are talking about playing competitively rather than spectating, which is different, or have the OP's problem with the level of competition. Still, I just don't understand why players being able to focus less on mechanics ruins the competition in game or enjoyment from spectating the game. Would someone please explain this to me? | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:36 Eko200 wrote: Woah what? BW had bad protoss players as late as 2008 in Korea? I guess BW isn't really the holy grail people have been making it out to be. bad compared to the good ones. dont worry, they were still better than mc | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51716 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:26 IntoTheWow wrote: Oh god, he discovered us... Quick, burn the evidence!! trolololol anyways this is why I what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge. | ||
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onlinerobbe
Germany547 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:31 War Horse wrote:[...]between Flash and Idra? Its not APM or practice hours. [...] sorry but... You think Flash's and Idra's practice hours are comparable ? o_o | ||
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SadMachine
United States98 Posts
On May 12 2011 13:52 Zrana wrote: You didn't mention NaDa or July as much as you should have. Both amazing at sc1 (capable of beating flash/JD at times iirc but not rocking SC2 as hard as you say they should) Different game, different skills. Mechanics mean slightly less, strategy slightly more. Sure some is transferable, but this really seems like more of the same tired old BW was better whine. You say that there are hundreds of players who could come in and dominate SC2 at any moment. Well why haven't they? There's nothing to stop them taking the GSL, TSL and NASL prize pools. More than enough incentive. The answer is that SC2 is still being figured out, and it takes a different sort of player to excel at a young game than a game where the rules have already been written. Also you imply that SC2 is invalid as a sport until we have some godllike figure like Flash. Was football invalid before Beckham, Formula 1 before Schumacher? No, they were still fun to watch. (well i dont like football but lots do) So many great points in this post! I especially agree with the fact that in a new game there are different skills required to be good than in a game that is already completely figured out. BW didn't have Flash and Jaedong until well after the entire game was entirely finished being patched and figured out through years and years of play! There's no denying that these guys are the Michael Jordans and Wayne Gretzkys of RTS, but they were able to do this in part because the game was pretty much 100% defined. In a new game the meta-game and even the actual game (via patches) is changing constantly. It takes a very creative, not necessarily mechanical player to figure out a game that is in flux like this. In a figured out game a player that wants to be best just has to look at how the game works and practice hardcore to perfect that. Granted natural talent combined with such work ethic will take someone further than someone with just talent or just work ethic. The point is, with such a young game OF COURSE the overall skill level and competition isn't going to be quite up to par compared to an old, figured out game. The guys on top are still going to make some mistakes sometimes because, well the game isn't fully figured out yet! However if you look at the games of this season's GSL compared to season 1, all the players have improved by orders of magnitude! Code A this season blows away what the top 8 or even top 4 players of season 1 were doing by a long shot! It's the natural way of things. As the game progresses people will figure it out more and get better. So what if the guys that are dominating right now weren't top tier pro BW players?! What difference does that make? If you don't enjoy watching the games, then DON'T WATCH THEM! I personally have a blast watching them, even when some of the top players make mistakes. Nobody is perfect, not even Flash and Jaedong, so please, enough of the "BW is better" argument. If you like it better than watch it and not SC2. It's as simple as that. | ||
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snowbird
Germany2044 Posts
I really hope that more players will switch by the end of the year. SC2 will get better and better over the years, at least thats what my guts tell me.. | ||
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Amyris
United Kingdom77 Posts
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dormer
United States1314 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:37 Eishi_Ki wrote: It's interesting to note the users reaction to this article and the direct correlation with their join date (and to a lesser extent, post count). You mean that people that joined before SC2 (BW fans) like a pro-BW article, and people who joined more recently (SC2 fans) don't? That's just to be expected imo. | ||
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Oldern
Hungary21 Posts
Fun fact 2: a year later, western pro players could get head to head with him, and while he is still one of the best, he IS beatable - and he did not look like beatable a year ago. So is SFIV crap because SFIII is oh much more complex due to parry, and the skill level, omg? No, it is not : ) | ||
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insidethesun
United States4 Posts
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Nuf
Denmark145 Posts
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 13 2011 00:38 BLinD-RawR wrote: trolololol anyways this is why I what do you need to be top of the top in BW. 1)Mechanics 2)Game Sense 3)Decision Making 2 and 3 combined makes strategy. now TBLS are the masters of mechanics but what truly puts them on top is their Game sense and Decision making. What do you need in SC2? well mechanics are much much much easier in SC2 thanks to MBS and Automine(so everyone's mechanics are pretty much the same at the highest of the highest levels). you are left with Game sense and Decision making which most players do lack behind the TBLS,without mechanics limiting them as much they will dominate. What is TBLS?figure that out,atleast then you might learn some BW knowledge. If mechanics are the same at the highest of highest levels, why do players like MVP, Idra, ToP, and Nada have consistently better mechanics than their peers? | ||
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